Post by Wrath0fKuus on Mar 8, 2013 13:01:54 GMT -5
All of this could be avoided if we stopped nosing into people's parts altogether. I don't see why this needs to be an accommodation at all - kid is living as a girl, says she's a girl, feels that she's a girl, so she's a girl, and uses the girls' restroom. Why does it matter even one little bit what her genitals are? Seriously, why?!
Can we stop acting as if she wants to permanently alter her body or hormones?
She currently self identifies as female. So what? Maybe she won't in a few years. Maybe she will. Using the bathroom where girls use the bathroom does not change anything about who she is or who she will be as a person.
Also hard side eye over comparing this to a mental illness.
Harder side eye to the school.
I would not be okay with my daughter using the same bathroom as this child. Boy parts belong in the boy's bathroom, not in the girl's bathroom.
Now, in order to be eligible for a disability accommodation under ADA, you have to show that you're disabled - - that you have a condition that substantially limits a major life activity. So we talk about the impact on people's lives of having a gender identity disorder.
This is interesting. It's a strange condition in that the body and the brain are both technically functioning in a normal way (all other things being equal). They just don't relate to each other in a typical way. Is feeling comfortable in your body a "major life activity" that could benefit from ADA protection?
ETA: My knowledge of ADA is limited to design issues, and I can't really think of any design issues besides interpreting the woman symbol on the bathroom door as meaning one's gender instead of one's sex.
If it were me, I'd say that having a gender identity disorder has a substantial impact on the ability of somebody to reproduce and to have sex (which have been found to be a "major life activities"). Now, they obviously don't apply to a six year old, but it goes to the "seriousness" of the underlying condition.
One of the other things I've seen, I think very effectively, is an analysis of suicide rates, mental illnesses, etc, of transgender kids. So, though we might not be talking about them having sex, we CAN talk about their ability to survive in the world, to relate to others effectively, etc. And the parents of this particular child have good evidence as it relates to her - - her grades went up when she was allowed to switch (and, no, getting good grades isn't a major life activity, but I think school could be closely analogized to work, which is a major life activity, I'd think), she related better to people, etc.
All of this could be avoided if we stopped nosing into people's parts altogether. I don't see why this needs to be an accommodation at all - kid is living as a girl, says she's a girl, feels that she's a girl, so she's a girl, and uses the girls' restroom. Why does it matter even one little bit what her genitals are? Seriously, why?!
Channels other posts seen offboard: I don't want to expose my child to that! What if my child sees her standing up to pee! These parents are just pushing the liberal agenda. This is child abuse!
I would not be okay with my daughter using the same bathroom as this child. Boy parts belong in the boy's bathroom, not in the girl's bathroom.
So I assume you think your daughter is going to not be able to control herself and have the dirty sex in the public restroom? Good to know that you can't trust your parenting abilities.
All of this could be avoided if we stopped nosing into people's parts altogether. I don't see why this needs to be an accommodation at all - kid is living as a girl, says she's a girl, feels that she's a girl, so she's a girl, and uses the girls' restroom. Why does it matter even one little bit what her genitals are? Seriously, why?!
Channels other posts seen offboard: I don't want to expose my child to that! What if my child sees her standing up to pee! These parents are just pushing the liberal agenda. This is child abuse!
blech. That made me feel squicky.
I'd ask those people why in the sam hill their kids are going right into the stall with each other, so that they'd see each other pee.
soozy87 girls' bathrooms have stalls, not urinals. How would your daughter even see?
If you think about it, forcing a boy wearing girl clothes and who self idtentifies as "she" to use a boy bathroom with urinals would the issue more clearly obvious to the other kids.
Specifically - Gender-segregated entities, such as public restrooms and locker rooms, are not required to provide unisex facilities under this law. Individuals have the right to access these facilities based on their gender identity--not their gender assigned at birth.
So the school is setting itself up for a lawsuit it cannot win?
Just from a brief glance at the law...
If I were a really strident lawyer for the school I'd say it doesn't apply. It's a law that covers employment, housing, and places of public accommodations.
There are a ton of anti-discrimination laws out there. They cover employment, housing, places of public accommodation, and EDUCATION.
The only way for the kid to be successful under this law is to claim that a school is a place of public accommodation, which it may well be in the common parlance - - - but we have lots of education discrimination laws that are separate and distinct from educational discrimination laws. If the legislature wanted to make this law apply to schools, they could have done that. They didn't.
So, should I be flipping my lid that Jackson's class has a unisex attached bathroom? People need to let this girl go to the bathroom wherever she wants.
So I assume you think your daughter is going to not be able to control herself and have the dirty sex in the public restroom? Good to know that you can't trust your parenting abilities.
I think what she means is that she doesn't want to take the chance that her kid will Catch the Trans.
Or touch something that dirty peen came within inches of touching.
In answer to this (I can't seem to be able to put this above what I want to write).
Here's where things get ugly.
There's no need to provide the "best" or even the "preferred" accommodation. Just one that's reasonable.
So...
(and I hate to say this). the school might be successful. using the nurse's bathroom might be "reasonable". IMHO it's an issue for a fact-finder (a jury or judge) to decide. Were I representing the girl, I'd bring in psychologist after psychologist to talk about the damaging effect of segregating her. Were I representing the school, I'd bring in a bunch of parents like soozy.
I wish I could say without a doubt that the girl would win.
Great summary. I see both sides of this issue.... I don't know the legal obligations here, but could offering up alternative bathrooms (staff, nurse) be considered a "reasonable" accommodation in this case?
I would assume that transgendered people of all ages have this bathroom issue--how is it normally dealt with? Does anyone know?
It should also be mentioned that most mothers are still taking six year olds into public bathrooms and gym locker rooms with them. So . . .
Truth.
I was going to ask if it's a problem that Jackson still goes into the bathroom with me if MH isn't with us, and sometimes even then because women's rooms can be cleaner than men's. I had that debate once (on another board) and was told that I shouldn't do that because it might make someone's daughter uncomfortable. I told her to get the fuck over it - I'm more concerned about my child's safety than her daughter's being potentially uncomfortable with a boy in another stall. Jesus.
Doozy, (ha! Autocorrect) Soozy, you are so, so dumb. For lots of reasons. Plus, I would bet that this girl doesn't pee standing up, and last time I checked, girl bathrooms tend to be urinal free. It's gonna be OK.
mominatrix surely the parents could also find teachers and even a floor plan of the school to show how using the nurse's bathroom is much more disruptive to the class and troublesome to boot than using the bathroom down the hall. That's what I'd focus on. I'd also bring in psychologists to discuss the (non-existent) effect of her continuing to use the bathroom as she has been.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure the students and even many of the teachers were actually unaware this child was anything other than the same little girl as anyone else.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure the students and even many of the teachers were actually unaware this child was anything other than the same little girl as anyone else.
From the articles I've read, no one knew until someone in the district office started making a stink.
mominatrix surely the parents could also find teachers and even a floor plan of the school to show how using the nurse's bathroom is much more disruptive to the class and troublesome to boot than using the bathroom down the hall. That's what I'd focus on. I'd also bring in psychologists to discuss the (non-existent) effect of her continuing to use the bathroom as she has been.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure the students and even many of the teachers were actually unaware this child was anything other than the same little girl as anyone else.
totally.
I'd totally prosecute this case. And I'd enjoy it. And I with all my heart think that she SHOULD win.
...but I wouldn't be shocked if she lost.
It's something that makes some people squicky, and there's enough of an "out" in the law that those who are squicked out have a legal rationale for finding for the school.
Cases like this are the reason judicial appointments are so important. If you boil it all the way down, civil rights cases, discrimination cases, accommodation cases can almost always go both ways, legally. They're judgement calls.
Can we stop acting as if she wants to permanently alter her body or hormones?
She currently self identifies as female. So what? Maybe she won't in a few years. Maybe she will. Using the bathroom where girls use the bathroom does not change anything about who she is or who she will be as a person.
Also hard side eye over comparing this to a mental illness.
Harder side eye to the school.
I think the school district should let her use the bathroom. I think for six year olds, this is so not a big deal and they are being ridiculous. I don't even think there's a great argument for having non-unisex bathrooms for kids this age in the first place.
For the broader issue, though, I am trying to understand why it's OK to say it is or it is like an illness when arguing that taxpayers are legally and morally obligated to pick up the tab for reassignment surgery just as they would if someone had cancer or schizophrenia, but it's not okay to say it in any other context.
Can we stop acting as if she wants to permanently alter her body or hormones?
She currently self identifies as female. So what? Maybe she won't in a few years. Maybe she will. Using the bathroom where girls use the bathroom does not change anything about who she is or who she will be as a person.
Also hard side eye over comparing this to a mental illness.
Harder side eye to the school.
I would not be okay with my daughter using the same bathroom as this child. Boy parts belong in the boy's bathroom, not in the girl's bathroom.
unless you're going to check everyone's genitals in every bathroom your kids ever go into, i think this argument is redic.
This is another reason why all schools should use the Montessori model of single-occupancy bathrooms off of each classroom, or shared between adjacent classrooms.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Can we stop acting as if she wants to permanently alter her body or hormones?
She currently self identifies as female. So what? Maybe she won't in a few years. Maybe she will. Using the bathroom where girls use the bathroom does not change anything about who she is or who she will be as a person.
Also hard side eye over comparing this to a mental illness.
Harder side eye to the school.
I would not be okay with my daughter using the same bathroom as this child. Boy parts belong in the boy's bathroom, not in the girl's bathroom.