Well, I don't have a daughter, but unisex bathroom is fine, as long as it is a one person bathroom.
So, when you go to the bathroom, what happens, exactly? I'm a human female, and when I go in there, I walk in and go to a stall. Once the stall door is shut, I pull down my pants and use the toilet. Do you come from some area where we all walk in, genitals a-waggling, and THEN enter the stall?
This is ridiculous, she is in every other way a little girl, as a parent I'd be more concerned with explaining why the girl in DD's class is using the boys bathroom than a "boy" using a stall in the girls bathroom where DD isn't going t see anything.
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
How is this child a girl? The child might dress like a girl, but the child is a boy.
id prefer my kids not need to be exposed to everyone's genitals in order to determine if they should call the person a boy or girl. But maybe next time I read to my kids from a children's book that labels pictures of kids "boy" and "girl" I'll explain that the book could very well be completely wrong because we have not inspected the children's private parts. We just don't know, do we kids?
How is this child a girl? The child might dress like a girl, but the child is a boy.
id prefer my kids not need to be exposed to everyone's genitals in order to determine if they should call the person a boy or girl. But maybe next time I read to my kids from a children's book that labels pictures of kids "boy" and "girl" I'll explain that the book could very well be completely wrong because we have not inspected the children's private parts. We just don't know, do we kids?
Can we stop acting as if she wants to permanently alter her body or hormones?
She currently self identifies as female. So what? Maybe she won't in a few years. Maybe she will. Using the bathroom where girls use the bathroom does not change anything about who she is or who she will be as a person.
Also hard side eye over comparing this to a mental illness.
Harder side eye to the school.
I think the school district should let her use the bathroom. I think for six year olds, this is so not a big deal and they are being ridiculous. I don't even think there's a great argument for having non-unisex bathrooms for kids this age in the first place.
For the broader issue, though, I am trying to understand why it's OK to say it is or it is like an illness when arguing that taxpayers are legally and morally obligated to pick up the tab for reassignment surgery just as they would if someone had cancer or schizophrenia, but it's not okay to say it in any other context.
Full disclosure - I haven't read the full thread, so forgive me if this has been said.
If a pregnant person was in prison, surely you'd think that taxpayers are legally and morally obligated to pay for prenatal care and delivery correct? But pregnancy isn't a disease or an illness. It's just pregnancy.
My very limited understanding is that science still doesn't have an agreed upon explanation for gender dysphoria, but I think there's a little bit of a consensus around it originating in the endocrine system, though I do think that there's some dispute over whether it has different causes. Ultimately though I think the general consensus in the transgender community is that regardless of whether there's a medical explanation, gender is gender, and people should get to pick their gender, in much the same way that people can just be left to be attracted to and marry whatever sex they want.
While I do think the first article pixy linked was good and I disagree with TTT's comments that a 4 year old can't possibly be diagnosed with this, I think it's unfair of people in this thread to jump all over TTT for calling it a mental illness. That gender dysphoria is never, ever the result of a psychological condition is hardly a medical consensus. And it's not like a "mental illness" means "crazy" anymore, so it is not an insult, and it's a little ridiculous to call her ignorant for not understanding the medical basis for something like this. And I'm sure there are probably transgender people out there who would prefer for their brains to be "cured" rather than cure their bodies through surgery, hormone supplements, etc.
I think the school district should let her use the bathroom. I think for six year olds, this is so not a big deal and they are being ridiculous. I don't even think there's a great argument for having non-unisex bathrooms for kids this age in the first place.
For the broader issue, though, I am trying to understand why it's OK to say it is or it is like an illness when arguing that taxpayers are legally and morally obligated to pick up the tab for reassignment surgery just as they would if someone had cancer or schizophrenia, but it's not okay to say it in any other context.
Full disclosure - I haven't read the full thread, so forgive me if this has been said.
If a pregnant person was in prison, surely you'd think that taxpayers are legally and morally obligated to pay for prenatal care and delivery correct? But pregnancy isn't a disease or an illness. It's just pregnancy.
My very limited understanding is that science still doesn't have an agreed upon explanation for gender dysphoria, but I think there's a little bit of a consensus around it originating in the endocrine system, though I do think that there's some dispute over whether it has different causes. Ultimately though I think the general consensus in the transgender community is that regardless of whether there's a medical explanation, gender is gender, and people should get to pick their gender, in much the same way that people can just be left to be attracted to and marry whatever sex they want.
While I do think the first article pixy linked was good and I disagree with TTT's comments that a 4 year old can't possibly be diagnosed with this, I think it's unfair of people in this thread to jump all over TTT for calling it a mental illness. That gender dysphoria is never, ever the result of a psychological condition is hardly a medical consensus. And it's not like a "mental illness" means "crazy" anymore, so it is not an insult, and it's a little ridiculous to call her ignorant for not understanding the medical basis for something like this. And I'm sure there are probably transgender people out there who would prefer for their brains to be "cured" rather than cure their bodies through surgery, hormone supplements, etc.
Thanks ESF, I appreciate that. The pregnancy analogy makes sense to me.
I wasn't even making the argument that this is or is not definitely a mental illness - I just honestly don't understand it and it's hard for me to understand how you can make a definitive statement about an 18 month old's gender identity when there's nearly nothing else you can make definitive statements about at that age.
If someone is experiencing a strong feeling that their body is "wrong", how can you say for sure whether it's the body or the brain that's "wrong"? And how is this significantly different from people who have overwhelming feelings that, say, their normal-sized bodies are too fat or that a particular body part is "wrong"? Those are considered mental illnesses without too much controversy.
I don't claim to be anywhere near an expert on this and I fully admit that I don't understand it very well.
I think the first article pixy linked explains things well. The fact that this girl has for years insisted that she's a girl and it influences everything she does strikes me as a lot different than a boy who puts on lipstick because he wants to be like mommy then fifteen minutes later, is a dog and insists that his chicken nuggets be served to him in a bowl on the floor.
I also think that heyjude's point is good. If this kid later decides that she isn't transgender, then who cares? Let her decide that later. If psychologists have concluded the risk of harm is less by letting her have long hair than forcing her to play with trucks, then who cares if she later changes her mind? They'll deal with it down the road.
ds1 told me the other day that a fraternity at his university has raised 10k for one of their members for gender reassignment surgery, and continues to fundraise. I think THIS is awesome.
Stories like these give me hope for the future. Older generations have more difficulty with the ways in which the world around us changes, but younger generations never seem to. Good for that fraternity.
Stories like these give me hope for the future. Older generations have more difficulty with the ways in which the world around us changes, but younger generations never seem to. Good for that fraternity.
Isn't that neat, Elle? I was so tickled, and ds1 was so pleased about it, very proud to tell us how cool his school is.
It is! Best news I've heard all day in fact, though given the types of things we talk about on here, I suppose it being the most heartening story isn't that much of a challenge. heh
I would not be okay with my daughter using the same bathroom as this child. Boy parts belong in the boy's bathroom, not in the girl's bathroom.
Great! Then I'm really glad to know that your future son will be 100% open and accepting using the urinal next to a child like this one, who may be wearing a dress, make up, nail polish, and a long French braid with a sparkly bow.
Remember on "serious ae" day someone said they make up characters for the boards?
Evidence A: Soozy.
I was thinking the same thing I don't mind if someone wants to stir the pot a little bit - because frankly these boards aren't that interesting if every post consists of people just agreeing with one another - but only if you're going to be less obvious about it than she is. Her posts are just lame and intellectually lazy. Watch though, now that she's been rumbled she's going to go away and come back with a new name.
The only thing that I want to add is that this is a very timely issue. I have a meeting next week on dealing with transgender students in the high school setting. I am looking forward to what my county has as policy.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Mar 9, 2013 13:22:20 GMT -5
Can we stop feeding the troll and get back to the issue. Sooz is probably some uber-liberal bored person anyway. Or my cat just trying to piss me off.
This is why I think gender reassignment surgery should be paid for if necessary - I don't see being transgendered as a mental illness. Or even an illness. I guess I see it more as a disability. So if a kid needed a cochlear implant, let's get that shit fixed if the kid wants to hear (some don't). Let's make accommodations. This is my recommendation.
ETA: Bathroom stalls are private. So let her use the girls' restroom. Plus, there are kids born wihtout genitalia at all. Or what about hermaphrodites? Are we checking for vaginas before letting someone into a restroom? How about you let the kid go wherever she feels most fucking comfortable? Just because I like to show off my number 31 before going into the stall doesn't mean you all have to.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Is the surgery permanent? Is it something recommended for children? Maybe you were just commenting about people in general, but I'm bored so I figured I'd ask
Is the surgery permanent? Is it something recommended for children? Maybe you were just commenting about people in general, but I'm bored so I figured I'd ask
Is this for me? I was sort of commenting on some of the other things in the thread, like about earlier when we were talking about the prisoner who needed gender reassignment surgery and how if it's an illness we should pay but this time it's not an illness, and...I need ADD meds, I think.
Because I wanted the whole thread to refocus and then I lost focus. I am pretty amazing like that.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Is the surgery permanent? Is it something recommended for children? Maybe you were just commenting about people in general, but I'm bored so I figured I'd ask
Is this for me? I was sort of commenting on some of the other things in the thread, like about earlier when we were talking about the prisoner who needed gender reassignment surgery and how if it's an illness we should pay but this time it's not an illness, and...I need ADD meds, I think.
Because I wanted the whole thread to refocus and then I lost focus. I am pretty amazing like that.
LOL! Yeah I thought you were saying the 6 yr old should just have the surgery so this would be a non-issue with the school. Nevermind me.
Surgery is not recommended for kids, however hormone treatment to prevent secondary sex characteristics from developing is accepted. And I'm totally ok with that because it's basically reversible.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
I wasn't even making the argument that this is or is not definitely a mental illness - I just honestly don't understand it and it's hard for me to understand how you can make a definitive statement about an 18 month old's gender identity when there's nearly nothing else you can make definitive statements about at that age.
If someone is experiencing a strong feeling that their body is "wrong", how can you say for sure whether it's the body or the brain that's "wrong"? And how is this significantly different from people who have overwhelming feelings that, say, their normal-sized bodies are too fat or that a particular body part is "wrong"? Those are considered mental illnesses without too much controversy.
I don't claim to be anywhere near an expert on this and I fully admit that I don't understand it very well.
This is actually just about where I am and what I was wondering aloud about before I bowed out of the previous discussion on the topic since it was assumed I was being a douchey asshole who doesn't know sex from gender. But the latter is neither here nor there.
However, I don't think that ambiguity has much bearing on the conversation** regarding which bathroom this little girl should be permitted to use. She identifies as a girl. Her parents identify her as a girl. She presents to the school as a girl so I don't see the issue with letting her use the girl's bathroom.
**Not saying that you, TTT are saying that it does. I'm only adding to the conversation.
I remember this case. I am all kinds of pissed off at the "grandfather of a male student" who ratted the poor girl out in the first place. What was the point? If it was to be a complete asshole, congrats, you succeeded.