Post by lissaholly on Jun 28, 2013 11:54:40 GMT -5
Soozy, If my daughter(s) ended up pregnant, I would be heartbroken because there is no decision that isn't a large altering available. However, I would be more heartbroken if my daughter(s) got pregnant and couldn't tell me.
That is my problem with an abistence only approach. It leaves a kid in position to not prepare for the consequences of sex and less likely to seek help from their parents.
I'd be wary of a religious based abstinence only education not just because it's ineffective but can affect your child's sexuality later in life, even after happily married. Trust- I went to a Catholic school and I still sometimes have to remind myself that the sex I have with my husband is ok 20 years later. I'm an athiest now but I still have hangups about sex.
This thread has really reinforced to me how important it is to talk to your kids about birth control. Pulling the wool over your eyes and saying "my kid won't have sex because we raised them not to" is the perfect way for them to end up pregnant.
soozy87 (an any other lurkers who don't feel comfortable chiming in) I just want to echo what others have said: DO NOT COUNT ON THE THE SCHOOL TO TEACH YOUR CHILDREN ABOUT SEX. Seriously. I teach in middle school in Florida and there is NO sexual education in my school/county (no health education at all, actually). If you don't control the conversation at home, their friends will be their source of information, and I think we all know you don't want some rando 12 year old educating your child.
My mom signed papers with the doctor that we had permission to get BC on our own if we didn't feel comfortable going to her, and let us know from like age 14. This was in tandem with her, "I know plenty of people who regret having sex in high school, and no one who regrets waiting until they were older" speech.
Here is what I don't understand about all of you...why do you feel the need to mock my choices? I am going to do the best job I can raising my kid. To me, that includes teaching her values and morals that my husband, myself and my family share. Just like I am assuming all of you do with your children. If it doesn't work out, she doesn't learn and chooses to go a different direction in her life, fine, but I am going to do my best to raise my kids as I see fit.
So you would rather her enter adulthood with no knowledge of how her own fertility works? You would rather her never learn about birth control, or just have to find out on line, gleaning god knows what from Dr. Google?
You also realize that even women who "save themselves for their wedding night" will still need birth control, yes?
What I forsee happening is the kid going to school on "sex day" and the coming home with questions and I will answer them as I see fit.
My kid is 14, and has had two years of sex ed, with a whole semester of classes devoted to it this year. If the school is the primary instructor of sex education, your kid is not going to come to you and ask you a damn thing. You need to get into this century.
I love your kid's school.
I am so grateful that while I grew up with parents and a social system that instilled in me that I was too young for sex in HS, that I had a public education that taught me how my body worked, how condoms worked (including putting one on what can only be called a wooden dildo), how birth control worked, etc.
Post by pixelpassion on Jun 28, 2013 13:16:32 GMT -5
When I look at the whole semantics issue of "pro-life," I think of it in terms of "pro-birth" at least politically speaking. I hate the political rhetoric concerning this standpoint the most, since pro-life people insist that a pregnancy not be terminated. But I think pro-life is misleading because no conservative lawmaker or pro-lifer gives a shit about the welfare of the unwanted child that has now been born.
Seriously, the same people that argue for staunch anti-abortion policies are often one in the same in regards to advocating for removal of welfare and early intervention programs like early head start, that would benefit children born from unwanted pregnancies (particularly in low income areas).
It's not pro-life if all people care about is that the child is birthed, not how the child is educated, clothed, fed, etc.
I know this may be completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I had to get this out.
Almost guaranteed, I said. Of course, sometimes it DOES work, in its fashion, but it doesn't have any contingencies built in. What if your teen daughter decides that she doesn't believe in any sort of god, even though you do? If religion is the only reason not to have sex right there and then, does that mean that no god = have all the sex right now? It probably does, right, at least to the teen?
Religion is not the only reason not to have sex. Other reasons include not producing a baby that you are not ready to raise or getting a disease from someone else, among others. If my kid does not choose to follow my religion, yes, it may mean that they make different choices. My husband was raise in a household in that religion was not pushed very hard. The Christmas/Easter type, but he ended up in the same position as me, so it is quite possible.
When it comes down to it though I have no idea. I have never raised a kid, I am sure that it will be difficult and trying at times. I am basing my answers to your questions on how I think it will work, but I am sure that I will have to adapt along the way.
How does the sacred bond of MAWWIAGE solve this one?
I'm just a lurker, but I'll step up and say that if my (hypothetical) daughter were in this situation, I would make it clear that I would help and support her as much as possible either in giving the baby up for adoption or raising the baby herself. Depending on the age, I would strongly encourage adoption. But I would not provide any support or assistance for an abortion. Obviously she could abort if she chose to do so and the laws of the state permitted it without parental consent, but I would not provide any money or other assistance to obtain it. That said, I wouldn't kick her out of the house or anything because that would be the last thing she needs. I imagine it would have a lasting effect on our relationship, but I really hope that it wouldn't and that we would both be able to move past it.
While we're all beating up @soozy (and rightfully so), can we go back and touch on this little gem? Where she says she will make her kid serve as breeding stock if her child needs parental consent?
I guess I cannot imagine forcing anyone to go through a pregnancy.
But I think pro-life is misleading because no conservative lawmaker or pro-lifer gives a shit about the welfare of the unwanted child that has now been born.
But I think pro-life is misleading because no conservative lawmaker or pro-lifer gives a shit about the welfare of the unwanted child that has now been born.
This "pro-lifer" does.
True, I may have been crass in that statement. I was speaking in broad generalities and from a political/policy analysis perspective.
When I look at the whole semantics issue of "pro-life," I think of it in terms of "pro-birth" at least politically speaking. I hate the political rhetoric concerning this standpoint the most, since pro-life people insist that a pregnancy not be terminated. But I think pro-life is misleading because no conservative lawmaker or pro-lifer gives a shit about the welfare of the unwanted child that has now been born.
Seriously, the same people that argue for staunch anti-abortion policies are often one in the same in regards to advocating for removal of welfare and early intervention programs like early head start, that would benefit children born from unwanted pregnancies (particularly in low income areas).
It's not pro-life if all people care about is that the child is birthed, not how the child is educated, clothed, fed, etc.
I know this may be completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I had to get this out.
I think this is a very good point. Pro-birth seems an apt description of some who identify as pro-life.
I am pro-choice, but am an adoption option pusher because of infertility and miscarriage, etc. I know this isn't always an option and I completely respect that. I would think that anyone on either side could and would respect their child's decision to do what she wishes with her own body but make sure that she is armed with ALL the possible options and the consequences of those options in order to make an educated and informed decision.
True, I may have been crass in that statement. I was speaking in broad generalities and from a political/policy analysis perspective.
No, I understand.
The only push back I will provide is to say that I'm not attempting to live my life in generalities. And real life doesn't solely happen in political/policy analysis perspective. What I mean is, if we want to have this discussion, I expect some fervor on all sides. If necessary, I'll meet you with equal fervor to say that I attempt to live out my life as wholly encompassing of my particular views as possible. And though I shouldn't speak for them, I have friends who do the same in all sorts of ways.
Man, it's been a while since I responded in an abortion thread. And here I was doing things like grocery shopping and dishes, so I'm coming in at the tail end.
I'm pro-life (or anti-choice or anti-abortion, whichever you prefer). This is real b/c I do now have a daughter and there may come a day where this isn't just a hypothetical.
Ultimately, I would not support a decision to abort. I love Charlie Girl with my whole heart and there is not anything in the world that I can think of that would make me love her any less or any more or any differently. That's honestly how my heart feels toward her. She never has to do anything to earn my love. In that same vein, I won't love her more if she makes the decision not to abort and I won't love her less if she does.
Would you interfere with it/prevent it from happening if it was her choice, a la Aubie?
Here is what I don't understand about all of you...why do you feel the need to mock my choices? I am going to do the best job I can raising my kid. To me, that includes teaching her values and morals that my husband, myself and my family share. Just like I am assuming all of you do with your children. If it doesn't work out, she doesn't learn and chooses to go a different direction in her life, fine, but I am going to do my best to raise my kids as I see fit.
So you would rather her enter adulthood with no knowledge of how her own fertility works? You would rather her never learn about birth control, or just have to find out on line, gleaning god knows what from Dr. Google?
You also realize that even women who "save themselves for their wedding night" will still need birth control, yes?
Safe sex is great within marriage. So yeah, I don't think I ever said I won't teach my girls about birth control. I will just reiterate that birth control is only to be used when having sex and teach them that our family believes that sex should wait until after marriage.
] Also, to all you, "I'm pro life for me, but it's not my body or choice." You are pro choice.
I want to point out that this distinction is very important.
Pro choice and life are political labels, not moral or personal ones. Please don't be shamed into calling yourself pro life to make clear that you would not choose it for yourself.
The reason it is important to correctly self-identify is that if you are polled or otherwise identify in some demographic medium as pro life, this skews information and gives anti choice activists and lawmakers ammunition to say, " SEE? More people are pro life! Majority rules!" when you may have just responded for yourself as opposed to the political designation.
Thanks for this explanation. I've been told in this post that I'm pro-choice; and if asked in a poll, i probably would have stuttered and not known what to really say. I don't like labels because I don't think everyone fits into a neat little box, but I can understand the need for labels in this situation.
Man, it's been a while since I responded in an abortion thread. And here I was doing things like grocery shopping and dishes, so I'm coming in at the tail end.
I'm pro-life (or anti-choice or anti-abortion, whichever you prefer). This is real b/c I do now have a daughter and there may come a day where this isn't just a hypothetical.
Ultimately, I would not support a decision to abort. I love Charlie Girl with my whole heart and there is not anything in the world that I can think of that would make me love her any less or any more or any differently. That's honestly how my heart feels toward her. She never has to do anything to earn my love. In that same vein, I won't love her more if she makes the decision not to abort and I won't love her less if she does.
Would you interfere with it/prevent it from happening if it was her choice, a la Aubie?
I'm not sure I understand what this means? Throw myself prostrate and weeping on the steps of a clinic? Emotionally manipulate her by withholding love or compassion? I wouldn't do those things.
Or do you mean pragmatics? Paying for an abortion? No, I most likely wouldn't support it in that way.
No, of course it's not the only reason. But the potential for both avoiding pregnancy and disease exists, and are rarely enough of a threat to be the sole reasons that a teen decides not to have sex.
There just seems to be this odd thread of authoritarianism in your approach, which comes out when you talk about needing a girl to have lifetime consequences for having sex, as though sex is a decision that will make a girl "bad" and it's a stigma that is permanent. That kind of mentality, if it is clear to strangers on the internet, is SURE to come across to your kids, and that's the kind of thing that kids rebel against.
I don't think that my approach is coming across clearly. I do think their is a lifetime of consequences, for both of the people involved. No matter if a baby is made or not. Maybe you don't and that is fine, but sex is not something that I take lightly. I do think that it impacts a person's life and that is the case if it is done at 14, 24 or 104. To me, sex isn't like buying a cup of coffee. But you are entitled to your opinion.
I do think sex is a big deal at all ages, or should be, and I also think that teenagers shouldn't have sex.
Would you interfere with it/prevent it from happening if it was her choice, a la Aubie?
I'm not sure I understand what this means? Throw myself prostrate and weeping on the steps of a clinic? Emotionally manipulate her by withholding love or compassion? I wouldn't do those things.
Or do you mean pragmatics? Paying for an abortion? No, I most likely wouldn't support it in that way.
Pragmatics. Like, if she needed a parent's consent.
I don't think that my approach is coming across clearly. I do think their is a lifetime of consequences, for both of the people involved. No matter if a baby is made or not. Maybe you don't and that is fine, but sex is not something that I take lightly. I do think that it impacts a person's life and that is the case if it is done at 14, 24 or 104. To me, sex isn't like buying a cup of coffee. But you are entitled to your opinion.
I do think sex is a big deal at all ages, or should be, and I also think that teenagers shouldn't have sex.
Well, at the very least we can agree on those points.
I'm not sure I understand what this means? Throw myself prostrate and weeping on the steps of a clinic? Emotionally manipulate her by withholding love or compassion? I wouldn't do those things.
Or do you mean pragmatics? Paying for an abortion? No, I most likely wouldn't support it in that way.
Pragmatics. Like, if she needed a parent's consent.
Pragmatically speaking, no, I don't think I could consent. We do, however, live in a state that does not require it.
True, I may have been crass in that statement. I was speaking in broad generalities and from a political/policy analysis perspective.
No, I understand.
The only push back I will provide is to say that I'm not attempting to live my life in generalities. And real life doesn't solely happen in political/policy analysis perspective. What I mean is, if we want to have this discussion, I expect some fervor on all sides. If necessary, I'll meet you with equal fervor to say that I attempt to live out my life as wholly encompassing of my particular views as possible. And though I shouldn't speak for them, I have friends who do the same in all sorts of ways.
Oops, I also left out some important relevant information. I do therapy for parents and their young children (all of whom have behavioral issues) at a non-profit located in a very low-income urban setting. Most of my client's pregnancies were unplanned and a lot of them were teens when they gave birth. I see how they and their kids are affected by various legislation and many were forced into having these children by their families.
Post by RoxMonster on Jun 28, 2013 14:33:27 GMT -5
I'm not having children, but I will say, that as the daughter of parents that never talked about sex (beyond the period talk I got from my mom), and who always made it seem like a scary bad thing to do, it didn't benefit me at all. I went off to college and beyond to live as an adult who really didn't have a clue about how BCP worked (my gyn was the one who really explained it to me), and I had a stigma about sex for a long time because it was always this forbidden thing we should not do. Luckily, I did not rebel and decide to go have unprotected sex as a teenager, but I very well could have.
My parents were and are absolutely wonderful people, wonderful parents, I love them and I know they made the choice regarding sex they thought was right (and it was also how they were raised). I went to Catholic school on top of it, which was abstinence-only all the time, and even then, we never really got a sex course. I was left to pretty much teach myself. That's not a good thing. I am not mad at my parents because they did what they thought was best, but I'm just here to say, this method of "sex ed" does not really work and will not prepare children to have a healthy, safe sex life as an adult. It just won't.
I'm not having children, but I will say, that as the daughter of parents that never talked about sex (beyond the period talk I got from my mom), and who always made it seem like a scary bad thing to do, ...
I'm 57, mother of two teenage boys, close to 10 years post menopausal, and my my STILL doen't know I got my period!
Post by amberlyrose on Jun 28, 2013 15:53:30 GMT -5
I'm like most of the "pro-choice but not for me" camp. We don't have kids yet, so I'm not sure how I'll feel in 15-20 years. I would try to lean her towards adoption or keeping the baby, but I wouldn't love her less if she chose abortion. I'd be pretty upset, though.
Also, to answer for the pragmatic issues: If our daughter chose abortion, DH would probably have to take her to have it done. I don't think I'd be able to be there to support her through it because I'm not sure I'd be able to hold my own emotions back. Maybe I could be strong for her in her moment of fear, but I'm not sure. I know that if she chose to do it, we would pay for it up front so that she had a safe procedure with a reputable doctor, but she would be paying us back. I'd do the same if she kept the baby though- we'd provide her with medical care but she wouldn't be out spending her personal money while we footed the bill for her kid.