Update on page 14 - Another Malaysia Airlines 777 crashed???

[summer]

The Dutch also don't seem happy with the non-response from their gov't.   I'm not at all happy with how the EU is handling this.  Germany has strong trading ties with Russia and gets 30-something percent of it's energy from Russia.  I say turn my electricity off a couple days a week. I don't want Putin getting to do whatever he wants.  


www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/europe/public-mourning-declared-in-netherlands-dutch-grief-abounds-mh17-malaysia-airlines-flight-17.html

ROTTERDAM, Netherlands — The Dutch public television station NOS broadcast solemn images on Sunday of mourners gathering at half-empty churches and at the homes of families who died when the Malaysia Airlines jet on which they were traveling was shot down over eastern Ukraine. From across this small country, people interviewed on television were trying to address their grief and growing anger over a tragedy that has propelled the ever compromise-seeking Dutch into the hard world of geopolitics and war.




Secretary of State John Kerry stopped short of saying Russia provided the missile unit that downed a Malaysia Airlines jet.

But as the deaths of almost 200 of its citizens aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur have struck the Netherlands with deep sorrow, its leaders have made no effort to channel the country’s grief. No day of public mourning has been declared; nobody is wearing black, not even on television; flags flying at half-staff are rarely seen. Prime Minister Mark Rutte has repeatedly expressed his anger and sadness over the event in which pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine most likely shot down the plane with an antiaircraft missile, and he has been working tirelessly in an international effort to retrieve the bodies. But he has not sat down with any of the relatives of the victims.



The country’s new king, Willem-Alexander, who took the throne in 2013, has been noticeably silent. Though under the Dutch Constitution the king is required to get the permission of the cabinet for important decisions, he has not addressed the nation in a televised speech, but did sign a book of condolences. On Monday he was scheduled to meet privately with relatives of victims.



“None of our leaders are fostering any sense of public spirit,” said Bas Heijne, a columnist for the newspaper NRC Handelsblad. “They come across as cold and insecure.”



Other commentators were more forgiving, saying that the Dutch tend to save their emotions until the full scale of the problem is clear. “Like during previous disasters our royal family will wait a couple of days before they act,” said Marc van der Linden, a journalist and expert on the royal family. While they were waiting, people across the Netherlands partied and danced during scheduled music festivals and summer celebrations, as if nothing had happened in a combat zone almost 2,000 miles away.



Here in Rotterdam, Europe’s biggest port, organizers said that around 10,000 people attended the Crazy Sexy Cool outdoor festival where electronic music fans paid the equivalent of $35 to dance to the beats of about 30 different acts.



Still, even some of the partygoers were surprised by the lack of empathy displayed at the festival. “I was expecting they would say something about what has happened,” said Elena Vasilikos, 20, referring to the crash, which killed all 298 people aboard. “But there was nothing.”



Other weekend festivals here and in many other cities in the Netherlands went on as planned.



“We have not canceled any of the events, as there is no day of national mourning,” said Lennart de Jong, a spokesman for the Rotterdam mayor, Ahmad Aboutaleb. “The organizers are wearing black ribbons, so we have adapted the event.”



Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story

On social media, the preferred public platform for the Dutch to express their anger, often anonymously, reactions to the government’s lack of action have been livid.



Many online commentators have been calling for Dutch troops to intervene to safeguard the bodies of their countrymen in the custody of rebels in Ukraine.



“Where is our minister of defense?” asked Casper van Nierop on his Facebook page. “Nearly 200 Dutch have been killed. Send in the paratroopers and commandos to secure the site. Why is nothing happening?”



Another Facebook user, Willem Vissers, wrote on his page: “When is our government announcing an official national day of mourning? Nothing counts more than solidarity with the families of 193 innocent Dutch victims,” he wrote. “I am outraged that ‘party life’ seems to continue as normal here in Holland.”



On Sunday, Mr. Rutte said again that he has been talking by telephone with world leaders, including President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, who many people here see as the real culprit behind the attack. During a news conference Mr. Rutte indicated that there would be no military intervention by the Netherlands, saying his primary focus was to bring the bodies home.



In the country’s usually sleepy seat of government, The Hague, people were in shock, they said. On beaches, in restaurants and aboard public transportation the deaths of so many of their compatriots were widely being discussed by Dutch citizens.



Joppe Ingebord, 61, sitting down to a fish lunch at a restaurant at the city’s port, compared it to the attacks of Sept. 11. “It’s the same situation as when the planes went into the twin towers,” she said. “We are very upset that they took so much from the crash site,” she added, referring to the news that the rebels and others in Ukraine who control access to the crash site had sifted through the plane’s wreckage.



Michael van’t Hoff, a chef and dietitian, said his government needed to apply more political pressure. “I’m only thinking of the victims,” he said.



“Everybody is thinking about this every day,” said Sanne Vermeij, 22, a surfing instructor, adding: “It hit so close to everybody’s home.”



Standing on the Scheveningen boardwalk in The Hague, Ms. Vermeij explained how her friends’ Facebook feeds were full of stories about the crash victims. “Everybody knows somebody who had a friend on that plane,” she said.



In recent years there have been explosions of public emotion in the Netherlands: In 2002, after the popular politician Pim Fortuyn was assassinated, angry mobs took to the streets. In 2004, there was widespread anger at a gathering on the Dam Square in Amsterdam when the filmmaker Theo van Gogh was killed by a Muslim extremist. When the popular Dutch folk singer Andre Hazes died the same year, thousands came together in mourning.



“Right now people are sad — and angry too,” said Alexander Pechtold, leader of the liberal political party, D66, one of the largest opposition parties. “If no one channels the sincere frustrations, they could backfire and it can become uncontrollable.”

[ttt]

It blows my mind that the PM isn't meeting with victims' relatives and there hasn't been a national day of mourning or anything. I can't even begin to fathom that here, with a tragedy that kills proportionally so many of our citizens.

[heyjude]

According to today's NYT the Dutch have a team of investigators there, they have access to the bodies that are all in a refrigerated train car, but the separatists won't let the train leave. Europe is mad and they are prepared to tighten sanctions on Russia.

[pamela]

So the people that are being blamed, are actually Ukranian citizens, correct? I understand that Russia is likely funding/supporting their nonsense, but this is happening from Ukranian soil by their citizens, even if those people don't want to be Ukranian. Ukraine has some responsibility for this in my opinion.

[heyjude]

Jul 21, 2014 10:53:14 GMT -5 pamela said:

So the people that are being blamed, are actually Ukranian citizens, correct? I understand that Russia is likely funding/supporting their nonsense, but this is happening from Ukranian soil by their citizens, even if those people don't want to be Ukranian. Ukraine has some responsibility for this in my opinion.

:/

[heyjude]

Jul 21, 2014 11:04:47 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Jul 21, 2014 10:53:14 GMT -5 pamela said:

So the people that are being blamed, are actually Ukranian citizens, correct? I understand that Russia is likely funding/supporting their nonsense, but this is happening from Ukranian soil by their citizens, even if those people don't want to be Ukranian. Ukraine has some responsibility for this in my opinion.

:/

Eta: They aren't necessarily Ukranian. They could be Russian military operatives or Russians sent over to be part of the separatists movement.

[pamela]

Jul 21, 2014 11:07:08 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Jul 21, 2014 11:04:47 GMT -5 heyjude said:

:/

Eta: They aren't necessarily Ukranian. They could be Russian military operatives or Russians sent over to be part of the separatists movement.

That's what I'm asking here. How much of this is really Russian.

[ttt]

Jul 21, 2014 10:53:14 GMT -5 pamela said:

So the people that are being blamed, are actually Ukranian citizens, correct? I understand that Russia is likely funding/supporting their nonsense, but this is happening from Ukranian soil by their citizens, even if those people don't want to be Ukranian. Ukraine has some responsibility for this in my opinion.

I'm just not sure what you think the Ukranian government should have done to prevent this. 

[pamela]

Jul 21, 2014 11:48:24 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 21, 2014 10:53:14 GMT -5 pamela said:

So the people that are being blamed, are actually Ukranian citizens, correct? I understand that Russia is likely funding/supporting their nonsense, but this is happening from Ukranian soil by their citizens, even if those people don't want to be Ukranian. Ukraine has some responsibility for this in my opinion.

I'm just not sure what you think the Ukranian government should have done to prevent this. 

I don't know either. I just don't see what placing all the blame on Russia does either. What if some of the people who live in the SW US that think the US stole that land decide at some point to actually do something about it. Is the US responsible or Mexico if Mexico sends them support?

[heyjude]

Jul 21, 2014 12:03:28 GMT -5 pamela said:

Jul 21, 2014 11:48:24 GMT -5 ttt said:

I'm just not sure what you think the Ukranian government should have done to prevent this. 

I don't know either. I just don't see what placing all the blame on Russia does either. What if some of the people who live in the SW US that think the US stole that land decide at some point to actually do something about it. Is the US responsible or Mexico if Mexico sends them support?

Mexico.

[IIOY]

Jul 21, 2014 12:03:28 GMT -5 pamela said:

Jul 21, 2014 11:48:24 GMT -5 ttt said:

I'm just not sure what you think the Ukranian government should have done to prevent this. 

I don't know either. I just don't see what placing all the blame on Russia does either. What if some of the people who live in the SW US that think the US stole that land decide at some point to actually do something about it. Is the US responsible or Mexico if Mexico sends them support?

Of course Mexico is responsible. How is this up for debate?

[decemberwedding07]

Jul 21, 2014 12:12:25 GMT -5 @pennypie said:

Jul 21, 2014 11:43:36 GMT -5 pamela said:

That's what I'm asking here. How much of this is really Russian.

A CNN story quotes an unnamed US official as saying "We are trying to determine whether they manned it, advised it, or pulled the trigger."

I think they are thinking that Russia didn't just ship over the weapon, but also shipped over people to help operate and/or train the rebels on the weapon.

Also, just saw a breaking news alert on CNN.com that the train with remains is on the move. Headed toward Amsterdam eventually? (But then the alert disappeared.)

Yes.  In spite of what Spies Like Us has taught me, that kind of machinery is extraordinarily complex and requires a great deal of training to operate. It's not like there's just one big button that says, "Warning, Do Not Touch," and that's it.

[Vespasia]

Jul 21, 2014 13:30:07 GMT -5 decemberwedding07 said:

Yes.  In spite of what Spies Like Us has taught me, that kind of machinery is extraordinarily complex and requires a great deal of training to operate. It's not like there's just one big button that says, "Warning, Do Not Touch," and that's it.

:Y:

I love that movie. 

[summer]

Jul 21, 2014 11:43:36 GMT -5 pamela said:

Jul 21, 2014 11:07:08 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Eta: They aren't necessarily Ukranian. They could be Russian military operatives or Russians sent over to be part of the separatists movement.

That's what I'm asking here. How much of this is really Russian.

They are Russian separtists getting weapons and possibly training and operatives from Russia.  They want no part of Ukraine and Russia is supporting them. This is all Russia's problem.  

[mbcdefg]

Jul 21, 2014 10:30:24 GMT -5 ttt said:

It blows my mind that the PM isn't meeting with victims' relatives and there hasn't been a national day of mourning or anything. I can't even begin to fathom that here, with a tragedy that kills proportionally so many of our citizens.

I just saw on Twitter that tomorrow (July 23) has been declared a National Day of Mourning in The Netherlands:

And the King and Queen will be at the airport to meet the plane carrying the bodies of the victims.

"Last day of national mourning for the Netherlands was in 1962 for burial of Queen Wilhelmina" ... so I guess it's just not something that they do? There wasn't even a day of mourning for that Queen's Day attack in 2009 (when the guy plowed his car into the crowd of people), right?

 

[josieposy]

Any guesses as to why some of the wreckage has apparently been sawed in half?

[heyjude]

Jul 22, 2014 18:23:39 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Any guesses as to why some of the wreckage has apparently been sawed in half?

To reach bodies?

[kmpls]

To destroy or hamper with evidence?

[ttt]

Because those people,are effing crazy??

[secretlyevil]

Bodies almost to the Netherlands.

[IIOY]

Jul 22, 2014 18:23:39 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Any guesses as to why some of the wreckage has apparently been sawed in half?

Because these are Bumfuck yahoos who think they can hide evidence by tampering with it?

[mbcdefg]

Jul 23, 2014 6:04:55 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

Bodies almost to the Netherlands.

There's a live stream of Dutch dignitaries meeting them at the airport: nos.nl/nieuws/live/journaal24/

That's a lot of hearses

[ttt]

Jul 23, 2014 9:14:14 GMT -5 mbcdefg said:

Jul 23, 2014 6:04:55 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

Bodies almost to the Netherlands.

There's a live stream of Dutch dignitaries meeting them at the airport: nos.nl/nieuws/live/journaal24/

That's a lot of hearses

Heartbreaking I am glad that these families will finally have their loved ones' remains, though. 

[mbcdefg]

Jul 23, 2014 9:21:40 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 23, 2014 9:14:14 GMT -5 mbcdefg said:

There's a live stream of Dutch dignitaries meeting them at the airport: nos.nl/nieuws/live/journaal24/

That's a lot of hearses

Heartbreaking I am glad that these families will finally have their loved ones' remains, though. 

I'm flipping back and forth between the stream and the Internet tabs I have open for work, so I haven't watched more than a couple minutes straight yet ... but it looks like they're having several members of the military slowly march each casket to the waiting hearse in a ceremonial fashion. They're doing several military units at a time (rather than having the same unit keep going back and forth for caskets) to keep things moving a bit ... but it's really hammering home just how many people were lost in this tragedy.

[WhatYouSee]

Here's an interesting graphic from the Washington Post about US intelligence on missiles and troop movement:

[meshaliuknits]

Jul 23, 2014 17:37:48 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Did you guys hear the latest rumor? Someone on FB said they heard that the Russian government is saying this is actually the missing Malaysian flight filled.with bodies and dropped by the US over Ukraine to frame Russia.

I guess it's pretty serious.

That's what the guest on last night's Daily Show said is being broadcast on Russian news. I assume everyone in Russia is currently wearing a hat made of foil.

[elleblue]

Jul 23, 2014 17:37:48 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Did you guys hear the latest rumor? Someone on FB said they heard that the Russian government is saying this is actually the missing Malaysian flight filled.with bodies and dropped by the US over Ukraine to frame Russia.

I guess it's pretty serious.

But how does that explain the (what would then be the supposed) disappearance of those on this flight? Or are all those Dutch citizens and others just fake made up people? 

I don't understand conspiracy theories like this. 

[meshaliuknits]

Jul 23, 2014 17:46:02 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Jul 23, 2014 17:37:48 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Did you guys hear the latest rumor? Someone on FB said they heard that the Russian government is saying this is actually the missing Malaysian flight filled.with bodies and dropped by the US over Ukraine to frame Russia.

I guess it's pretty serious.

But how does that explain the (what would then be the supposed) disappearance of those on this flight? Or are all those Dutch citizens and others just fake made up people? 

I don't understand conspiracy theories like this. 

What? Stealing a plane out of mid air, killing all the people aboard it, draining the blood of the corpses, rigging the plane with a bomb, transporting the whole kit n kaboodle to Amsterdam, having the pilots parachuete out after take off and exploding it when it hits the Ukranian Russian boarder does not make total and complete sense to you?


The plots to Ocean's 11, 12 and 13 would be simpler to pull off.

[cattledogkisses]

Jul 23, 2014 17:37:48 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Did you guys hear the latest rumor? Someone on FB said they heard that the Russian government is saying this is actually the missing Malaysian flight filled.with bodies and dropped by the US over Ukraine to frame Russia.

I guess it's pretty serious.

[katieinthecity]

Resurrecting with breaking news:

Four to Face Murder Charges in Downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17
www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-russia-suspects.html

MOSCOW — International prosecutors on Wednesday said that four men, including three with close ties to the Russian military and intelligence, would face murder charges in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine five years ago, killing 298 people.



Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor of the Netherlands, said that the trial would begin in the Netherlands on March 9, 2020. The accused are unlikely to be present, however, since three are in Russia and the fourth is believed to be in the breakaway region in Ukraine.



But investigators said they would seek international arrest warrants for the suspects, and put out a new call for more witnesses.