Is cotton offensive to black people?

[josieposy]

Dec 15, 2014 18:00:12 GMT -5 blink said:

Dec 15, 2014 17:20:40 GMT -5 josieposy said:

This Irish girl really wants some potatoes now.

Would sharing potatoes be offensive or not?

People share their carbs? I'm kinda selfish.

[tacosforlife]

Dec 15, 2014 18:18:41 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Dec 15, 2014 18:07:04 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I wonder what would offend his 1/4 Swedish part. Incorrectly-assembled IKEA furniture? Me throwing out my Ace of Base cassette?

Bad meatballs.

Alton Brown had a great Swedish meatball recipe.

Just wanted to tie another thread in here.

[blink]

Dec 15, 2014 18:19:33 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Dec 15, 2014 18:00:12 GMT -5 blink said:

Would sharing potatoes be offensive or not?

People share their carbs? I'm kinda selfish.

Well it is Christmas. So maybe.

[teflepi]

Dec 15, 2014 13:42:44 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

So I've re-read mx's post and I'm not seeing offense there. Like, I'm really trying hard to find something in there that would offend somebody and I can't. I mean, I'm offended that racism exists, but I don't think that's what sandsonik is talking about.

maybe she thinks the examples are what MX thinks? Not sur4 either

[AJL]

Dec 15, 2014 18:03:46 GMT -5 gottadobe said:

Dec 15, 2014 17:20:40 GMT -5 josieposy said:

This Irish girl really wants some potatoes now.

Mmmmmmm Dublin Coddle.

I read this as "Dublin Cuddle" and thought "I'm IN!"

[gottadobe]

Dec 15, 2014 18:31:32 GMT -5 AJL said:

Dec 15, 2014 18:03:46 GMT -5 gottadobe said:

Mmmmmmm Dublin Coddle.

I read this as "Dublin Cuddle" and thought "I'm IN!"

potatoes and cuddling does sound like the perfect night.

[NewOrleans]

Dec 15, 2014 18:21:20 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Do I need to read this post? I have been avoiding it. What is going on in here?

lololll

OP: cotton can remind black people of slavery, so not an awesome display in a clothing store, especially when you've been confused for being "the help."

others: huh, I never thought of it like that. Jeez.

more others: huh. Hm. (Thoughts)

Sandsonik: groupthink.  Heads up your asses. White people can be the "the help."  Irish people got over the Potato Famine without hating potatoes, so black people can get over cotton. Or boycott it. Why aren't you boycotting it, hmmmmmmmmmm?  I've had terrible summer jobs and I'm not scarred for life.  

us: explain, explain, side-eye

Smo: fucking fuck!

Sandsonik: I do not make that connection.  I reject these feelings. White people have it hard too.  Irish genocide.

random: you suck.  Ya'll should be having DIALOGUE.

us: oh.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 13:20:16 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Oh shit, someone came for Cville? Here we go!!

I didn't "come for her", I stated my agreement with her.  Don't try to start more trouble, I've got enough. 

[elleblue]

I'm sorry you're feeling attacked and ganged up on sandsonik, though I know you now realize that you rolled up in to this thread with a combative attitude, which didn't exactly invite meaningful dialogue. Even so, many tried to explain their pov on the matter at hand because, while on the surface it seems insignificant to some, it goes much deeper for a segment of the population who have already suffered and continue to suffer today, just by virtue of being born a certain race.

I believe you when you say you'd be horrified to see something blatantly racist, and would speak out against it, perhaps in part because I like to believe the majority of us in this country would too. What many in this thread are attempting to convey to you is that this insidious racism and reminders of our terrible history can be just as hurtful, if not more so than the overt instances. 

It embarrasses me greatly to admit that it would not have occurred to me to be bothered by the BB display prior to this thread/conversation because I like to imagine I'm more aware than that. In part because of my inherent privilege, but also due to where I was born and raised (CA where to my knowledge cotton is not grown), I just don't have the same experience or inherited legacy as others on this board. But it's not my call then to disagree when listening to others speak their truth. I doubt anyone involved in that display at BB meant anything racist by it, but that doesn't make it okay. 

At the same time, there's no one forcing you to decide that every cotton plant or field you see from now on will remind you of slavery. People are only asking that you acknowledge and understand why it does for them personally. 

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

Dec 15, 2014 12:21:46 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

You aren't understanding the basis of this at all. It's not about what all white people think or about you specifically being racist or about people who work in retail being lesser human beings.

The fact is that until very recently (vis a vis their arrival in this country) black Americans weren't allowed to hold many, certain jobs. They had to work as nannies or cleaners, porters or in low wage agricultural or service industry jobs because active, legal discrimination kept them out of white collar and more highly paid positions. Moreover, a legacy of substandard education, employment and housing discrimination and INTENTIONAL and LEGAL self segregation of the white population all of which persist to this day have prevented many black Americans from realizing their potential--and they consequently are disproportionately represented in the most low paid, undesirable sectors of the economy.

Ergo, for a black man or woman to be repeatedly mistaken for a Walmart employee or nanny etc has markedly different connotations than it does for a white person. I have been mistaken for a store employee on a number of occasions--including by black people. But because I don't come from that background of constantly having to prove that I am smart/law abiding/polite/not on welfare it doesn't read the same way. For a black person I imagine sometimes this comes across as "you couldn't be anything BUT a store clerk or a nanny" which is just another constant daily reminder of inequality, racial bias and the pressure to appear "respectable" at all costs. I don't feel that pressure. I can go to Target unbathed and in wrinkled clothes straight off 38 hours on planes/in transit and buy a haphazard selection of wine, ice cream and ranch dip and no one will assume I'm a welfare queen. My next door neighbor who is a dark skinned black woman does not have that luxury.

The best analogy I can come up with, and it isn't a good one, is that I have at times--more often than I would prefer--been mistaken for a SAHM. Now this is ludicrous as I don't even have kids, but there is something grating about the assumption that because I'm a woman of a certain age that that's the box I fall into. That doesn't mean being a SAHM is a bad thing--it's the assumption that you couldn't be anything BUT that which grates.

Ok, now that I have a little time and distance you probably didn't mean for this to sound nearly as bad as it did, but here's what I found so offensive earlier.

1. The American history lecture for 8 year olds.  I wonder what part you thought I didn't know.  Thanks for putting it all together for me!

2. The idea that you don't have to prove you're smart because you have some magic white pass.  REALLY?  Everybody has to prove they're smart, everyday of their lives.  I think you're way too comfortable and self deluding.  You really think that being white means you can go to Target unbathed, ratty and the rest of the stuff you said without being judged?  Did you read that in some book?

The clerks are totally saying "Junkie" behind your back, you know.   It blows my mind that you think you will not be judged because you're white....and probably come from a good neighborhood and have several degrees.  Like you have immunity, you are insulated from reality.  That's on you, not on society.  Why are so sure no one thinks you're a welfare queen, but that people would think that of your black neighbor?  How could anyone possibly think that about white little you?  I'm trying not to say it, but that sure sounds racist to me. 

3.And the implication that if you work in a store, you are stupid.  This bothered me a lot. Whew, so glad you don't have to constantly prove you're not a store clerk.  Because, really, what could be more fucking horrible, just kill yourself now.  You're white, that life is not good enough for you.

I've never been a SAHM or been confused for one - don't know how that could happen when I'm working all the time, but I don't get the leap from being confused for one to thinking the assumption is that I couldn't be anything but. 

This post just came off so entitled and so elitist to me.  I think it's as much the elitism as the racism.  I GET not going to the store in your pajamas, because I was raised more like your neighbor.  To be polite, law abiding, and to not embarrass the family by looking like a ragamuffin in public.   I suspect the pressure you don't feel has more to do with class than race, to be honest.  Kind of like how rich preps aren't embarrassed when they don't wear socks but a normal person's mom would tell them to put their damn socks on so no one calls CPS.

[NewOrleans]

[NitaX]

Dec 15, 2014 16:40:37 GMT -5 ttt said:

So....no to this Pinterest board then?

Hell Nawl

[iammalcolmx]

Dec 15, 2014 19:11:28 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:20:16 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Oh shit, someone came for Cville? Here we go!!

I didn't "come for her", I stated my agreement with her.  Don't try to start more trouble, I've got enough. 

I didn't start trouble crazy cakes. YOU DID. The nerve of you to suggest anyone else is stirring the pot.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 15:30:29 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Dec 15, 2014 14:12:55 GMT -5 ttt said:

By the way, the "No Irish Need Apply" thing was a myth.

::runs away::

LOL Nah, I heard this too, that they couldn't find proof that people preferred hiring black folks to Irish ones.

But there is a reason why cops and firefighters have a heavy Irish presence. And sometimes I wonder if that particular tension isn't one of the undercurrents present in LEO today.

How is that for full circle?

I never thought the claim was that people preferred hiring black folks to Irish folk.  Just that they didn't want either.  It's not a myth, the newspaper ads and signs still exist.

Have you ever seen that PBS thing about how the fire fighters started?  They were basically competing gangs!  They started out as private companies competing for the same turf and often creating their own business, wink wink,  and disabling the other company's equipment or using any dirty trick available to score the job.

I can't remember why Irish cops are so predominant.   I think it had something to do with getting on the force when  so many people were fighting the civil war.  LoL, I just googled 'reason why so many cops are I...." and google autofilled "idiots" before I could type Irish.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 20:06:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Dec 15, 2014 19:11:28 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I didn't "come for her", I stated my agreement with her.  Don't try to start more trouble, I've got enough. 

I didn't start trouble crazy cakes. YOU DID. The nerve of you to suggest anyone else is stirring the pot.

And I'm trying to STOP trouble.  I didn't come for Cville.

[flgirl]

Dec 15, 2014 18:09:59 GMT -5 teflepi said:

Dec 15, 2014 12:52:19 GMT -5 flgirl said:

Actually it doesn't seem to matter what the topic is.  It is a valid POL and so is the Irish and potatoes and the Jewish with swastikas. Lots of things can be symbolic for a group of people or, hell, for just one person. I really didn't read anyone "dismissing" this POV. It is hard to talk about a sensitive subject without emotions running high. It even effects reading comprehension and the ability to not attack someone.

No. The IRISH were not systematically killed. So, nope. Stop. STOP whitey

And there is the problem. The thought that one group suffered more or less then another group. I don't think blacks have the only claim to that. So I guess 1 million dead and 1 million emigrants from the potato famine just don't make the cut. Every ethnic, racial, religious group can be offended by something and we should understand and empathize.  At least I do.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 20:15:08 GMT -5 @mx said:

Oh good lord. I don't actually go anywhere looking "like a junkie." And I've never gone to the store in my pajamas to my recollection.

You are missing the point. As a white person wearing normal-ish clothes doing normal-ish stuff I'm basically neutral. No one is thinking I'm some exemplary human being, but they're also not making negative assumptions about me over some stupid thing like scuffed shoes or chipped nail polish or frizzy hair. It's not that the whole world thinks I'm smart--it's that they don't assume I'm not. So that's the worldview with which I operate--assumed neutrality. So it's not an insult to be mistaken for a stock person in a store because every day of my life people have assumed I'm basically a neutral-to-good person. It has nothing to do with class--I have been a member of many classes but as long as I wasn't "acting like trash" I was granted the neutrality of whiteness no matter how poor and backward I was.

And please I never said people who work in stores aren't smart or that the work is beneath me. I have had many customer service and retail jobs. Do I want to do those jobs again? Hell no, because they are hard as hell and you are paid shit. Just like you didn't like working in a snaps factory I didn't like working as a telemarketer or a cashier. You yourself have acknowledged that there are jobs which are less desirable than others. That is why black people (excuse me black people for trying to explain this) who may constantly be feeling that they have to prove that they aren't criminal, or welfare queens or whatever bad stupid stereotype will be more upset at the assumption they have one of these undesirable jobs. Because they are in a position of routinely being assumed to be less than neutral and because of that whole 8 year old history lesson thing about them previously being forced into those less desirable jobs.

I'm not going to try to dissuade you that I'm racist, because that's not even worth my time and energy. I will endeavor, as always to be less so.

I don't think you wish any other race ill, so not racist in that way.  Just that you're SO sure of your generalizations.  Being white means everyone think you're a basically good to neutral person. Everyone presumes your neighbor is less that you because she's black. 

You found retail undesirable but some people truly enjoy it and seek it out. 

I distrust generalizations.  I can't say I ever expected people to give me a chance because I was white or thought "this person's ok, they're white' and I never assumed the worst of someone because they were black.

But thanks for the discussion.

[elleblue]

When multiple Irish people explain to me how a display of potatoes in a store or other public space is offensive because of their history, I will listen and not argue and (hopefully) empathize. But I just don't see that happening because it's not an apt comparison. Maybe if Harrods department store had barrels of rotten potatoes and gleaming sheaves of wheat as decor in their store, it would make sense for Irish people to feel some kind of way about it. But otherwise? Not the same. 

[StrawberryBlondie]

Dec 15, 2014 19:57:24 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

You aren't understanding the basis of this at all. It's not about what all white people think or about you specifically being racist or about people who work in retail being lesser human beings.

The fact is that until very recently (vis a vis their arrival in this country) black Americans weren't allowed to hold many, certain jobs. They had to work as nannies or cleaners, porters or in low wage agricultural or service industry jobs because active, legal discrimination kept them out of white collar and more highly paid positions. Moreover, a legacy of substandard education, employment and housing discrimination and INTENTIONAL and LEGAL self segregation of the white population all of which persist to this day have prevented many black Americans from realizing their potential--and they consequently are disproportionately represented in the most low paid, undesirable sectors of the economy.

Ergo, for a black man or woman to be repeatedly mistaken for a Walmart employee or nanny etc has markedly different connotations than it does for a white person. I have been mistaken for a store employee on a number of occasions--including by black people. But because I don't come from that background of constantly having to prove that I am smart/law abiding/polite/not on welfare it doesn't read the same way. For a black person I imagine sometimes this comes across as "you couldn't be anything BUT a store clerk or a nanny" which is just another constant daily reminder of inequality, racial bias and the pressure to appear "respectable" at all costs. I don't feel that pressure. I can go to Target unbathed and in wrinkled clothes straight off 38 hours on planes/in transit and buy a haphazard selection of wine, ice cream and ranch dip and no one will assume I'm a welfare queen. My next door neighbor who is a dark skinned black woman does not have that luxury.

The best analogy I can come up with, and it isn't a good one, is that I have at times--more often than I would prefer--been mistaken for a SAHM. Now this is ludicrous as I don't even have kids, but there is something grating about the assumption that because I'm a woman of a certain age that that's the box I fall into. That doesn't mean being a SAHM is a bad thing--it's the assumption that you couldn't be anything BUT that which grates.

Ok, now that I have a little time and distance you probably didn't mean for this to sound nearly as bad as it did, but here's what I found so offensive earlier.

1. The American history lecture for 8 year olds.  I wonder what part you thought I didn't know.  Thanks for putting it all together for me!

2. The idea that you don't have to prove you're smart because you have some magic white pass.  REALLY?  Everybody has to prove they're smart, everyday of their lives.  I think you're way too comfortable and self deluding.  You really think that being white means you can go to Target unbathed, ratty and the rest of the stuff you said without being judged?  Did you read that in some book?

The clerks are totally saying "Junkie" behind your back, you know.   It blows my mind that you think you will not be judged because you're white....and probably come from a good neighborhood and have several degrees.  Like you have immunity, you are insulated from reality.  That's on you, not on society.  Why are so sure no one thinks you're a welfare queen, but that people would think that of your black neighbor?  How could anyone possibly think that about white little you?  I'm trying not to say it, but that sure sounds racist to me. 

3.And the implication that if you work in a store, you are stupid.  This bothered me a lot. Whew, so glad you don't have to constantly prove you're not a store clerk.  Because, really, what could be more fucking horrible, just kill yourself now.  You're white, that life is not good enough for you.

I've never been a SAHM or been confused for one - don't know how that could happen when I'm working all the time, but I don't get the leap from being confused for one to thinking the assumption is that I couldn't be anything but. 

This post just came off so entitled and so elitist to me.  I think it's as much the elitism as the racism.  I GET not going to the store in your pajamas, because I was raised more like your neighbor.  To be polite, law abiding, and to not embarrass the family by looking like a ragamuffin in public.   I suspect the pressure you don't feel has more to do with class than race, to be honest.  Kind of like how rich preps aren't embarrassed when they don't wear socks but a normal person's mom would tell them to put their damn socks on so no one calls CPS.

Oh JFC.

You know, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and believed you before when you plead that your intent just came off wrong. I don't anymore. I think you know mean exactly how you're coming off.

[katfco]

Dec 15, 2014 20:38:52 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 20:15:08 GMT -5 @mx said:

Oh good lord. I don't actually go anywhere looking "like a junkie." And I've never gone to the store in my pajamas to my recollection.

You are missing the point. As a white person wearing normal-ish clothes doing normal-ish stuff I'm basically neutral. No one is thinking I'm some exemplary human being, but they're also not making negative assumptions about me over some stupid thing like scuffed shoes or chipped nail polish or frizzy hair. It's not that the whole world thinks I'm smart--it's that they don't assume I'm not. So that's the worldview with which I operate--assumed neutrality. So it's not an insult to be mistaken for a stock person in a store because every day of my life people have assumed I'm basically a neutral-to-good person. It has nothing to do with class--I have been a member of many classes but as long as I wasn't "acting like trash" I was granted the neutrality of whiteness no matter how poor and backward I was.

And please I never said people who work in stores aren't smart or that the work is beneath me. I have had many customer service and retail jobs. Do I want to do those jobs again? Hell no, because they are hard as hell and you are paid shit. Just like you didn't like working in a snaps factory I didn't like working as a telemarketer or a cashier. You yourself have acknowledged that there are jobs which are less desirable than others. That is why black people (excuse me black people for trying to explain this) who may constantly be feeling that they have to prove that they aren't criminal, or welfare queens or whatever bad stupid stereotype will be more upset at the assumption they have one of these undesirable jobs. Because they are in a position of routinely being assumed to be less than neutral and because of that whole 8 year old history lesson thing about them previously being forced into those less desirable jobs.

I'm not going to try to dissuade you that I'm racist, because that's not even worth my time and energy. I will endeavor, as always to be less so.

I don't think you wish any other race ill, so not racist in that way.  Just that you're SO sure of your generalizations.  Being white means everyone think you're a basically good to neutral person. Everyone presumes your neighbor is less that you because she's black. 

You found retail undesirable but some people truly enjoy it and seek it out. 

I distrust generalizations.  I can't say I ever expected people to give me a chance because I was white or thought "this person's ok, they're white' and I never assumed the worst of someone because they were black.

But thanks for the discussion.

Do you trust research? Because what people have been saying here is backed up by psychological and sociocultural research. Lots of it. 

[ttt]

Dec 15, 2014 20:08:08 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 15:30:29 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

LOL Nah, I heard this too, that they couldn't find proof that people preferred hiring black folks to Irish ones.

But there is a reason why cops and firefighters have a heavy Irish presence. And sometimes I wonder if that particular tension isn't one of the undercurrents present in LEO today.

How is that for full circle?

I never thought the claim was that people preferred hiring black folks to Irish folk.  Just that they didn't want either.  It's not a myth, the newspaper ads and signs still exist.

Have you ever seen that PBS thing about how the fire fighters started?  They were basically competing gangs!  They started out as private companies competing for the same turf and often creating their own business, wink wink,  and disabling the other company's equipment or using any dirty trick available to score the job.

I can't remember why Irish cops are so predominant.   I think it had something to do with getting on the force when  so many people were fighting the civil war.  LoL, I just googled 'reason why so many cops are I...." and google autofilled "idiots" before I could type Irish.

The signs never existed www.irishcentral.com/roots/no-such-thing-as-no-irish-need-apply-signs-argues-history-professor-211727201-237597051.html

[NewOrleans]

Dec 15, 2014 20:29:51 GMT -5 flgirl said:

Dec 15, 2014 18:09:59 GMT -5 teflepi said:

No. The IRISH were not systematically killed. So, nope. Stop. STOP whitey

And there is the problem. The thought that one group suffered more or less then another group. I don't think blacks have the only claim to that. So I guess 1 million dead and 1 million emigrants from the potato famine just don't make the cut. Every ethnic, racial, religious group can be offended by something and we should understand and empathize.  At least I do.

The only people in this thread NOT understanding/empathizing are the ones over whom you insulted us.  You might thus want to consider changing sides, lol.

The key difference / hole in your statement is that Irish Americans could assimilate by virtue of being... wait for it... white.  And that is the moment where the conversation seems to deteriorate every. dayum. time. we have this discussion about the different forms of white privilege, ranging from George Zimmerman to cotton balls.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 20:42:42 GMT -5 elleblue said:

When multiple Irish people explain to me how a display of potatoes in a store or other public space is offensive because of their history, I will listen and not argue and (hopefully) empathize.

It's not.

[elleblue]

Dec 15, 2014 21:23:54 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Again with "blacks" and "the blacks." Let me just say that I have never heard those phrases used by people who weren't racist.

Carry on.

Or at the least didn't hang around with racists. People are very adept at picking up linguistic patterns from their social groups, whether they want to sound like their friends/family or not. Choose your company wisely.

[elleblue]

Dec 15, 2014 21:22:36 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 20:42:42 GMT -5 elleblue said:

When multiple Irish people explain to me how a display of potatoes in a store or other public space is offensive because of their history, I will listen and not argue and (hopefully) empathize.

It's not.

Ok. So why bring it up and make that comparison?

[gottadobe]

Dec 15, 2014 21:26:41 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

There are ALL THESE BLACK FOLKS in here saying the same goddamn thing as mx and yet you decide that she's somehow fucking racist?? Do we not fucking count? Are we racist too? How many of us have to say the same thing before you pull your motherfucking head out of your ass and consider that maybe just because you cannot wrap your mind around something it might just mean you are ignorant as fuck rather than EVERYBODY ELSE BEING WRONG?

Nugget T. Brain, The OG rallied.

ETA  Seriously I can't believe they still act like they aren't getting it 13 16...SIXTEEN pages in. 

[NewOrleans]

Dec 15, 2014 21:22:36 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 20:42:42 GMT -5 elleblue said:

When multiple Irish people explain to me how a display of potatoes in a store or other public space is offensive because of their history, I will listen and not argue and (hopefully) empathize.

It's not.

[tacosforlife]

I think sandsonik just told us that white privilege doesn't exist.

Carry on.

[meshaliuknits]

@mx is a thief? What did I miss?!

Sent from my EVO

[NewOrleans]

Dec 15, 2014 21:51:53 GMT -5 @dontcallmeshirley1 said:

Dec 15, 2014 21:41:29 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

I think sandsonik just told us that white privilege doesn't exist.

Carry on.

RIP VOODOO.