Flame free racial thread.

[carfar]

I'll start with a confession: Even though I am bi racial... I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to help prepare my son for life as a black man, and what that means for him.

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 11:11:38 GMT -5 @astrid said:

One of the things I have read is, "Black people are not dark skinned white people." What does that mean to you?

I haven't really heard that said, but to me,  my first thought would be it means to remember that black people (and all people of color, really) have different life experiences because of their skin color than white people. They don't simply go through life with just a different skin color... they go through life with out the privilege afforded to those with lighter skin. It becomes something more than just skin color. It ends up actually shaping who you are because of the information you are given by the world around you because of your skin color. 

[simpsongal]

Jul 10, 2015 11:23:11 GMT -5 gravytrain225 said:

pennypenny I don't have an answer for why that happens. Not all white people feel that way though, I can't roll my eyes hard enough whenever I see those comments.

I have a question about 'oriental.' I didn't know it was not an acceptable term until my time on here. I have stopped using it, but don't understand why it's actually bad.

White person here, but I remember being told a rug is "oriental," a person is Asian (or something more specific, like Korean).

[thejackpot]

@astrid. I haven't heard that phrase before but from the piece you shared it appears that black people have a set of history/experiences that should be considered and to appeal to them you must consider that. They are not simply black skin but black culture.
The Marlboro marketing he mentions is a great example. If you go back 100yrs and use Cowboys etc. that is probably not something that appeals to blacks. When someone I know says that they love Gone with the Wind, I don't feel the same love. What time period was this? How are my people treated/represented?
This is what I get from the assertion.

[bowies]

Jul 10, 2015 11:19:09 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I have one for white people. Every time I black person commits a crime, white people come out talking about where are the black leaders condemning the person actions. Blacks must always speak out saying the don't agree with something another black person did. But I never hear white leaders come out condemning something white people did. Where were all the white leaders with the Charleston massacre or Sandy Hook, etc. Yes individually people condemn those acts, but there is no calling for a "leader" to condemn. Why do all black people have to represent all black people, but a white person can be an individual? The so and so isn't me attitude.

I've seen this too and I find it weird. A black person committing a crime in Ohio is no more connected to Obama than a white person committing a crime in Ohio is connected to Biden. (I'm picking Ohio because it's easy to type.) It's pretty obviously racist to me.  

[humpforfree]

Jul 10, 2015 11:19:09 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I have one for white people. Every time I black person commits a crime, white people come out talking about where are the black leaders condemning the person actions. Blacks must always speak out saying the don't agree with something another black person did. But I never hear white leaders come out condemning something white people did. Where were all the white leaders with the Charleston massacre or Sandy Hook, etc. Yes individually people condemn those acts, but there is no calling for a "leader" to condemn. Why do all black people have to represent all black people, but a white person can be an individual? The so and so isn't me attitude.

I don't know, but it is stupid. I was on the metro and a young black dude mugged a white guy and ran off the train. The black lady sitting across from us who saw all this turned to me and my friend after and apologized and said that not all black people are like that. It made me so sad that she felt like she needed to clarify that.

[thejackpot]

Jul 10, 2015 11:29:04 GMT -5 @peggyolson said:

We live in a fairly diverse part of town. DD1 *LOVES* the hairstyles of the little black girls at the playground. She's always saying "I like your hair! It's so pretty!"

We tell her to keep her hands to herself no matter the race of the individual she's playing with, so no touching hair, etc.

Is there a reason I should tell her to not comment? She's being genuine that she really does think their hairstyle is pretty.

I don't think paying a compliment to anyone is bad.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2015 11:23:11 GMT -5 gravytrain225 said:

I have a question about 'oriental.' I didn't know it was not an acceptable term until my time on here. I have stopped using it, but don't understand why it's actually bad.

I wouldn't really call it unacceptable, personally. I just think whoever uses this terms is suppperrrr old and/or outdated.

[halfpint]

I'm always hesitant to speak out about race issues in case I'm at risk of offending some of my Black friends, or causing them to say, "Why is that white girl trying to speak out on this? She doesn't know."

When I worked on the south side of Chicago, it was an extremely diverse area. When I tried to coach my team, I was often told I didn't understand, or that I was coming from a racist place (like I coached someone to be friendlier, more open with her direct reports, she said it's just a "Black people thing" - which instantly put me in an awkward spot).

I guess my biggest area of discomfort is not knowing where the line is crossed between having an open, honest conversation about race issues and approaching questions or discussing things that may be perceived as ignorant or insensitive. My "Iowa Nice" tendency is to want to ignore that there are even differences, but in many ways, that's just as bad. I want to find a happy medium of celebrating the differences, having that open dialogue, but not having those differences negatively impact day to day interactions and lives.

I have some good friends who are Black, but not to the point where I feel like I can really talk about racial issues on a deep level, you know? I feel like it's not polite conversation. And it comes back to what someone said upthread - people are individuals. One person, or a small group, can't represent the feelings and thoughts of an entire race of people.

I'm not sure I'm expressing that well...am I?

[bowies]

Jul 10, 2015 11:29:08 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:23:11 GMT -5 gravytrain225 said:

pennypenny I don't have an answer for why that happens. Not all white people feel that way though, I can't roll my eyes hard enough whenever I see those comments.

I have a question about 'oriental.' I didn't know it was not an acceptable term until my time on here. I have stopped using it, but don't understand why it's actually bad.

I'm sure someone can explain this better than I can, but the term "Oriental" comes from an old fashioned time when European powers were out exploring/conquering various peoples in the East (the "Orient" could really go from Turkey to China and everything in between).  It didn't recognize differences between the various peoples and their specific ethnic origins and fetishized them as exotic beings, not quite on par with civilized Europeans.  

So now we know better, we do better.  

This is a great explanation. Terminology like "exotic" also conveyed a sense of otherness, and still can in modern times. Think how it's employed when describing a beautiful woman. It's never attached to a white woman.

[humpforfree]

Can I ask a clarification type question? "Black" vs "African American." I mean, not all black people ARE African, or have African roots? Why is AA the default/politically correct version? I usually default to black because of a discussion in a college class where a dude hated being called AA because he was from the Caribbean... Is it wrong/bad to say black instead of AA?

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 11:29:04 GMT -5 @peggyolson said:

We live in a fairly diverse part of town. DD1 *LOVES* the hairstyles of the little black girls at the playground. She's always saying "I like your hair! It's so pretty!"

We tell her to keep her hands to herself no matter the race of the individual she's playing with, so no touching hair, etc.

Is there a reason I should tell her to not comment? She's being genuine that she really does think their hairstyle is pretty.

I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting that she likes it. Thank you thank you for not letting her touch it. 

I was actually going to post the question "My question is... WHY DO PEOPLE WANT TO TOUCH MY HAIR ALL THE TIME?! Also, my son's hair?! people are constantly touching his hair. Why do people think its ok?" 

It is NOT ok to let people feel like they are an animal in a petting zoo. Just say you like my hair and leave it at that. 

[carfar]

I have no issues with being called black V. AA 

[imojoebunny]

I feel like I try to set aside racial bias that is inherent in our culture, but I feel like it takes more than just my own personal actions. My kids go to two different schools, one holds forums for Discussions on race, actively seeks to minimize bias in both teachers and the school community. The other, though "open minded and liberal" does not. I see on a micro level the difference this makes in the classroom.

It is not that the people are intentionally racist in the school that does not actively seek to minimize the unconscious bias. It's just that because the unconscious bias is not openly addressed, as it could be, the unconscious bias come out in the classroom.

There is unconscious bias on all races, but obviously, the AA bias of white people, is far more detrimental to opportunity. I feel far more comfortable discussing race at the school that facilitates open discussions and feel far closer to the AA parents of my children's friends I have met there, than I do at the other school. Like the elephant has been removed from the room and we can meet as people with the common goal of raising kids who enjoy and learn from each other.

I also understand more of what my unconscious bias is because of those discussions, so I think about them much more, sort of "check yourself and your assumptions" when they pop into my head. A simple example would be, walking alone at night and coming across a group of AA teens, and thinking "am I scared because they are scary or because they are black"

I don't know what the solution is on a global scale, but I do think that community based forums discussing unconscious bias is a helpful tool.

[thejackpot]

halfpint There is definitely a closeness that needs to exist when discussing race related matters. If you don't feel close enough, you should definitely refrain. That's not to say that surface level things can't be shared- like don't touch my hair is surface level to me but deeper things require me to feel close enough to maybe make you feel awkward but know that we are still going to remain friends.

[mandapanda18]

Jul 10, 2015 11:37:51 GMT -5 carfar said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:29:04 GMT -5 @peggyolson said:

We live in a fairly diverse part of town. DD1 *LOVES* the hairstyles of the little black girls at the playground. She's always saying "I like your hair! It's so pretty!"

We tell her to keep her hands to herself no matter the race of the individual she's playing with, so no touching hair, etc.

Is there a reason I should tell her to not comment? She's being genuine that she really does think their hairstyle is pretty.

I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting that she likes it. Thank you thank you for not letting her touch it. 

I was actually going to post the question "My question is... WHY DO PEOPLE WANT TO TOUCH MY HAIR ALL THE TIME?! Also, my son's hair?! people are constantly touching his hair. Why do people think its ok?" 

It is NOT ok to let people feel like they are an animal in a petting zoo. Just say you like my hair and leave it at that. 

People touch my kid all the time too... I don't think it is race related. They are always trying to touch his hair, or hands (eww) and have since he was a tiny baby. I ask my son to not touch anyone without the okay from them. A boy came up to him in the park yesterday and grabbed his arms and started swinging them around, he told him he didn't ask (lol) so I guess it is working. 

[sunshine608]

I've been feeling really down about the future of race relations after talking to some white friends who had no idea some of the historical contexts of the Confederate flag. I enjoyed talked and hope they got something out of, but if they aren't been taught this stuff, and this is something that is taught in many AA homes b/c we know it isn't taught in school. There just seems to be this big disconnect.

[halfpint]

Jul 10, 2015 11:36:58 GMT -5 humpforfree said:

Can I ask a clarification type question? "Black" vs "African American." I mean, not all black people ARE African, or have African roots? Why is AA the default/politically correct version? I usually default to black because of a discussion in a college class where a dude hated being called AA because he was from the Caribbean... Is it wrong/bad to say black instead of AA?

I default to Black. As I understand it, African American is going to apply more to those who have roots in being brought here from Africa during slavery. But yeah, AA isn't a catch-all description. 

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 11:45:44 GMT -5 @stilljustash said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:29:04 GMT -5 @peggyolson said:

We live in a fairly diverse part of town. DD1 *LOVES* the hairstyles of the little black girls at the playground. She's always saying "I like your hair! It's so pretty!"

We tell her to keep her hands to herself no matter the race of the individual she's playing with, so no touching hair, etc.

Is there a reason I should tell her to not comment? She's being genuine that she really does think their hairstyle is pretty.

compliments are always nice!

i know i would've loved to have received compliments on my hair when i was little and felt ugly compared to all my friends who had long, flowing hair they could tuck behind their ears (<-- this was the height of my jealousy lol).

OMG YES!! lol... or the girls who would come to school with still wet hair and then it'd be perfect after lunch. I was always jealous of that. 

[humpforfree]

Jul 10, 2015 11:45:46 GMT -5 @246baje said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:36:58 GMT -5 humpforfree said:

Can I ask a clarification type question? "Black" vs "African American." I mean, not all black people ARE African, or have African roots? Why is AA the default/politically correct version? I usually default to black because of a discussion in a college class where a dude hated being called AA because he was from the Caribbean... Is it wrong/bad to say black instead of AA?

I prefer black as I am from the Caribbean.

AA is an ethnicity much like Irish American or even West Indian. Technically none of those descriptors denote race.

I had a great pic of a bunch of my friends who all identified as West Indian and encompassed all the races.

Yes, I think this hits it for me. I am "white" or "American." No one calls me "German American" so why AA instead of black as a descriptor, especially when not everyone identifies with AA. It really bothered me during the riots here in Baltimore- all the news kept saying the "African American community...."

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 11:47:28 GMT -5 mandapanda18 said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:37:51 GMT -5 carfar said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting that she likes it. Thank you thank you for not letting her touch it. 

I was actually going to post the question "My question is... WHY DO PEOPLE WANT TO TOUCH MY HAIR ALL THE TIME?! Also, my son's hair?! people are constantly touching his hair. Why do people think its ok?" 

It is NOT ok to let people feel like they are an animal in a petting zoo. Just say you like my hair and leave it at that. 

People touch my kid all the time too... I don't think it is race related. They are always trying to touch his hair, or hands (eww) and have since he was a tiny baby. I ask my son to not touch anyone without the okay from them. A boy came up to him in the park yesterday and grabbed his arms and started swinging them around, he told him he didn't ask (lol) so I guess it is working. 

Yes, people, in general tend to touch babies they have no business touching more than they probably should, however... I know, through my experience as a person with textured hair that people can and do touch black people's hair out of a place of it being "different" and thinking it feels rough or wirey or different. It is not ok. 

[mandapanda18]

I have a question, C is in a pretty diverse daycare (5 kids, 4 different races). He is learning Spanish there as it is a full-immersion program. I want him to feel free to use that language as he grows (the whole reason we chose a bi-lingual daycare) but I have already gotten rude comments, smirks or general awkwardness at restaurants when he speaks Spanish (he asks for Agua not water). How do I encourage him to be open and use his skills when everyone is always questioning it? Yes he is glow in the dark white, has blond hair and blue eyes, but he really doesn't know the difference between him and the other children because they all speak both languages at daycare.

[awkwardpenguin]

Jul 10, 2015 11:19:09 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I have one for white people. Every time I black person commits a crime, white people come out talking about where are the black leaders condemning the person actions. Blacks must always speak out saying the don't agree with something another black person did. But I never hear white leaders come out condemning something white people did. Where were all the white leaders with the Charleston massacre or Sandy Hook, etc. Yes individually people condemn those acts, but there is no calling for a "leader" to condemn. Why do all black people have to represent all black people, but a white person can be an individual? The so and so isn't me attitude.

I think the issue is exactly your second to last sentence. As white people we have the privilege of seeing white people as individuals and also as inherently good. Thus white people see crimes committed by white people as aberrant acts by an individual. Whereas crimes committed by black people are seen as representing the true nature of black people and needing individual black people to condemn them as not truly representing black people.

[mandapanda18]

Jul 10, 2015 11:56:39 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:54:00 GMT -5 mandapanda18 said:

I have a question, C is in a pretty diverse daycare (5 kids, 4 different races). He is learning Spanish there as it is a full-immersion program. I want him to feel free to use that language as he grows (the whole reason we chose a bi-lingual daycare) but I have already gotten rude comments, smirks or general awkwardness at restaurants when he speaks Spanish (he asks for Agua not water). How do I encourage him to be open and use his skills when everyone is always questioning it? Yes he is glow in the dark white, has blond hair and blue eyes, but he really doesn't know the difference between him and the other children because they all speak both languages at daycare.

I'd shut that shit down quick if someone made a comment.

Being bilingual is nothing shameful. I'd just keep encouraging your kid. Yes that is agua! Blue, azul, big, grande. Etc. Keep him encouraged on your side. People will be jerks his whole life.

I do... I look at him and say great, look at the waiter and say he know what he wants. They then feel the need to pry into me and ask if I speak spanish, I inform them that I am learning with him and leave it at that. It's just so frustrating because he often looks at me like he has done something wrong.

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 11:57:02 GMT -5 @choco said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:29:08 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I'm sure someone can explain this better than I can, but the term "Oriental" comes from an old fashioned time when European powers were out exploring/conquering various peoples in the East (the "Orient" could really go from Turkey to China and everything in between).  It didn't recognize differences between the various peoples and their specific ethnic origins and fetishized them as exotic beings, not quite on par with civilized Europeans.  

So now we know better, we do better.  

This is a great explanation. Also, I grew up hating that word b/c I automatically thought, "I'm not a rug, I'm a person." 

carfar, I believe that it takes a village and hope that my DH and my FIL and all of the other strong, black men we know will help prepare our boys for the real world. My sons are half black and am hyper-aware of how they are treated vs their peers. We are lucky that we have a large group of friends of mixed races with kids but we know that is not the norm at school and at work. I'm pretty convinced that given where our kids will end up going to school, an HBCU experience will be really good for them in the future. They don't have to go to DH's alma mater, but I do hope they will go to one for undergrad. It made a world of difference for DH, BIL, and many of their friends who went to prep school before attending an HBCU. IMO, HBCUs help prepare, not alienate, young black men and women by giving them more confidence due to the unique experiences found at these schools.

I guess that is my flameful. 

I am sure that my dad and having diverse friends will be a great support to him as he grows in this manner as well...  my uncles... well...  IDK if some of them are the example I want my son following...    I think we will definitely try to encourage HBCU as well... I've never really thought about that before.. but that is a great thought. 

[Queen Mamadala]

Jul 10, 2015 11:41:22 GMT -5 @stilljustash said:

Jul 10, 2015 11:36:58 GMT -5 humpforfree said:

Can I ask a clarification type question? "Black" vs "African American." I mean, not all black people ARE African, or have African roots? Why is AA the default/politically correct version? I usually default to black because of a discussion in a college class where a dude hated being called AA because he was from the Caribbean... Is it wrong/bad to say black instead of AA?

i always think black is most appropriate, unless you know for sure the person is AA.

This. I say black, and most of my relatives use it. I never say/use AA. I mean, it's a continent for one, and doesn't actually describe the individual's heritage because it's rarely even known. I've known, say, Kenyans that take issue with being called AA, because they're Kenyan, not African. 

My husband and I talk about the issue of race a lot, and we both recognize that cognitive biases exist for all people in all walks of life for whatever reason. We all have them. We discuss our own experiences and thoughts on race. Though he grew up in a relatively progressive household, he was not exposed to a lot of blacks or minorities. He was raised in an upper-middle class white family, and had white friends, and was not exposed to other cultures, really. Some of my culture is lost on him, but that's okay.

A few months ago a co-worker asked of LO is mixed, and he answered that his wife is half black, and she looked at him like he had a third eye. She was thinking Asian. So we got to talking about how she'll identify and how it's important to me for her to be exposed to that part of my culture and know that she's 25% black even though she doesn't look it. 

Despite being half black I do recognize white privilege because I do not look half black to the vast majority of people. However, my other mixed cousins, the ones who look black, the treatment and attitude they receive is different depending on their location or where they live. I looked white enough for it not to be an issue. This was said by one of my exH's relatives, most of whom are prejudice or racist. That "at least her dad is white." 

Sort of off topic. I just asked my 10.5 year old if she knows she's part black, and she said "Of course. You told me a long time ago." Me: "But you knew that without me telling you, right. I mean, grandma is black." Her: "Well, I never really thought about it."

She didn't see "race" until I brought it to her attention, and I've done so because of recent race-related issues. She and my other kids likely won't face them directly as a mostly white-looking mixed girl, but she needs to be aware of the issues that do exist and how to combat them.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2015 11:47:33 GMT -5 sunshine608 said:

I've been feeling really down about the future of race relations after talking to some white friends who had no idea some of the historical contexts of the Confederate flag. I enjoyed talked and hope they got something out of, but if they aren't been taught this stuff, and this is something that is taught in many AA homes b/c we know it isn't taught in school. There just seems to be this big disconnect.

Learning that the Confederate Battle Flag wasn't put up on the South Carolina statehouse until 1961 blew me away. Totally changed my perspective on it. Or, rather, reinforced my perspective.

[Velar Fricative]

Jul 10, 2015 12:01:50 GMT -5 @astrid said:

Can I ask a question about speech patterns? I went to high school with a brother and sister. He spoke like...I speak? A midwesterner? Tom Brokaw? She spoke with a heavy accent. Ebonics? Why would that be so different? Is speech an identifier of culture?

I feel like this is a bad question and am not trying to be shitty.

There is a ton of scholarly information about AAVE (African-American Vernacular English). It's not better or worse than Standard American English, it just exists. Ebonics is not really the best term to use, IMO, since it has negative connotations.

As for why the siblings have two very different idiolects, I don't know. There could be several reasons for that. Maybe the siblings were raised in different areas. Maybe the friends they grew up with spoke a certain way and they naturally adopted that way of speaking (kids adapt to the language surrounding them, which means they develop their idiolects through playing with other kids - also explains why someone like me speaks English without a foreign accent but my mother speaks English with a foreign accent; she raised me but I didn't grow up speaking like her, I grew up speaking like my friends). 

[Deleted]

I research and write about local history, using deed, census, vital, and archival records. I've stumbled across a fascinating story of a man who owned and built about 15 homes in our little western town in the late 19th century. He's not white, but I don't know how to describe him. Play along wih me:

Census records indicate that his parents were Canadian (though, the further the census is from the Civil War, their place of birth goes further south. To New York in the 1880 census and then Mayland in the 1890 census, which was a slave state, so who knows). He's also deceived as mulatto or light skinned in a variety of documents (marriage licenses, voter registration rolls, etc). To to that end, he was likely very light skinned.

Regardless of "how black" his skin was, his experience and opportunites at the end of the 19th century were certainly different than a man with totally white skin. So it's important to describe his race (or ethnicity?) in telling his story. But I'm terrified of incorrectly describing him and being offensive. How should I describe him?

[Velar Fricative]

Duh, I forgot about code-switching! Man, I am slacking.