Flame free racial thread.

[momin2013]

Jul 10, 2015 14:13:33 GMT -5 rootbeerfloat said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:07:33 GMT -5 momin2013 said:

I have a question that's been bugging me because it applies to DS. If you're biracial (or even more mixed - triracial?), how do you identify yourself on a form where you have to choose a box, like a census, etc.?

I am white and DH is Middle Easterm (often classified as "West-Asian" on forms like this), so since DS is technically both, which box should he choose?

My preference is to check all the boxes (and the Census lets you do this), but if forced to choose one, my default is either "Other" or the minority option. It depends somewhat on how I think the information will be used, too.

See, my DH says he should just check "white/caucasian", but to me that's like ignoring half of his heritage. I never thought of checking both boxes; that's definitely a good solution if it lets you do that.

[bowies]

I'm curious if anyone here has been followed around in a store because they are a minority. I keep reading articles about this. I appreciate putting sunlight on these "hidden" forms of racism. I also like to know which stores have institutionalized policies around this so I can avoid them.

[glitzy07]

What is the appropriate way (or is there an appropriate way) to ask someone what ethnicity they are?  

For example, I have a friend whose dad is white (Italian) and mom is Asian.  If someone wanted to ask where specifically his mom was from (i.e. China, Korea, Laos, etc), is there an appropriate, non-offensive way to do so?  Because she very well could be from Washington DC, and asking where she's from isn't really getting to the answer you were looking for.  FTR, I know that she's Chinese, but I'm just using this as an example.

And thank you rootbeerfloat.  I definitely agree that the Chopstick thing is ridiculous and I'm sort of just hoping it dies down eventually.  I've said so to sister's boyfriend even, and his response was, "Why?  It's not like he's calling me 'zipper' or something."   :?  

[rootbeerfloat]

Jul 10, 2015 14:16:39 GMT -5 momin2013 said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:13:33 GMT -5 rootbeerfloat said:

My preference is to check all the boxes (and the Census lets you do this), but if forced to choose one, my default is either "Other" or the minority option. It depends somewhat on how I think the information will be used, too.

See, my DH says he should just check "white/caucasian", but to me that's like ignoring half of his heritage. I never thought of checking both boxes; that's definitely a good solution if it lets you do that.

I don't think there is a right way to do it. You can self-identify (or you can on your son's behalf until he has an opinion of his own) however you like. My bias is that minorities, even part-minorities, are often under-represented, so more data that includes them is better, but your husband is entitled to a different opinion.

[Deleted]

I'd never heard the term "code switching" until this thread.

Thank for starting it. I'm enjoying the conversation.

[redwino]

Jul 10, 2015 12:34:29 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Jul 10, 2015 12:28:30 GMT -5 swizz said:

[


l get lots of "pets" if my hair is particularly big. I think it's just anything "different."

But it's just different when someone wants to touch your hair then remark about the texture, ask how long it will stay like that, all while eyeballing the shit out of your head.

And it makes it even more awkward because as a kid I got all kinds of comments about how using grease is gross, why can't you just put on a headband etc, and now people wanting to touch it. Like, caress it but not too much because something might be in there or something. So no, please don't touch it or pat my daughter's Afro puffs or smell it or anything like that.

I'll add to this that people will literally ooh and ahh while asking those questiins. I once wore 2 - strand twist to class in grad school and a group of white women congregated around me asking to touch my hair and saying ooh while asking a list of questions. They enclosed me while I was seated and looked all over my head. I definitely felt like an exhibit.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2015 13:56:12 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jul 10, 2015 13:49:24 GMT -5 @246baje said:

I am terrified for my son. I don't know that I as a foreign born black woman have the tools that I need to keep him alive.

I also feel like with the girls we can say things like, "you are biracial" and they have more of a freedom (that word sounds squicky) to be able to accept this idea. However, I don't think that Black/ White biracial is as widely accepted, or sadly even a safe approach to take raising a male in current American society. It seems as though males will always be Black, and must be given survival tools accordingly.

Again, I may be rambling about this, but it's the type of stuff that really concerns me.

I've come to realize in the last year or so, this a reason I don't want kids.

I'm terrified I'm not equipped to give them the "culture" they need because I "lack" so much of it.



And then it pisses me off, that others feel this way and that we (black people) still have to worry about our sons (and daughters). It's not right and despite the change we do have, the world is still very fucked up.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2015 14:07:23 GMT -5 carfar said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:02:49 GMT -5 spunkarella said:

This is me, too.

I was an RA in college and my supervisor (black) cultivated a really fantastic, safe environment for his staff to talk about race. We had ground rules and a commitment to listen, share with each other, and suspend judgement as much as possible. It was awesome, and I leaned so much. But it's a process and I still have a long way to go.

Anyway, here's my question. Is there a preference between describing someone as mixed or biracial? I mostly see biracial on the boards and hear mixed in real life.

I prefer bi racial, but am not terribly offended by mixed. 

Honestly, I'm a person but if we have to label it, I prefer mixed. Biracial just sounds so... Off... Can't think of the word.

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 14:09:19 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

In the WIC thread the other day, I wasn't sure if I should acknowledge that she might have been stereotyped because of her race. Lots of other white people did, and it was well-taken. Do you find that generally the case? That those kinds of observations about race and disparate treatment from white people are well-taken? I know I'm not expected to be color-blind, just to treat everyone equally regardless of race, but I'm never sure whether comments related to race are welcome from a white person. So I don't say anything. But then I think maybe it's bad NOT to acknowledged in those kinds of cases.

I wish I were more comfortable/confident in this area. I think part of it might be related to growing up/living in an area where there is still a lot of open racism. I'm always afraid of being lumped in with those people.

I actually don't see them as well taken. I often see a lot of "white splaining" going on when people of color mention they feel like they have received some sort of improper treatment. I think it's great if white people truly listen to the people of color and acknowledge the problem, and validate their feelings, and realize that can and does happen, and perhaps even speak up if they see something similar happening to someone in the future. Sometimes isn't about people of color "making it about race" it's about non people of color realizing, sometimes it IS about race. 

[glitzy07]

Jul 10, 2015 14:19:25 GMT -5 bowies said:

I'm curious if anyone here has been followed around in a store because they are a minority. I keep reading articles about this. I appreciate putting sunlight on these "hidden" forms of racism. I also like to know which stores have institutionalized policies around this so I can avoid them.

This isn't necessarily related to race, but my company has a policy that we offer lots of "customer service" to people who appear to be in the midst of trying to shoplift.  We essentially follow them around, ask if they need help finding anything, send more employees to ask if they're finding everything ok, etc.  My husband is a meat manager in one of the stores so he deals with this ALL the time.  I'll be curious to ask him what the breakdown is of the people he sees who are watched so closely.

[greencrayon]

Can you guys help me reconcile this? I'm not exactly sure how to say it because it's still confusing in my head. It first started with the pizza place and bakery refusing to serve gay customers. Personally, I think that's stupid. There's nothing wrong or immoral or whatever with being gay. But I think that people are allowed to disagree with me. Now, the confederate flag is being taken down from government buildings, being banned, not being sold by target Walmart and Amazon, etc. I pretty much look at people that have confederate flags like I would look at someone wearing a swastica, but I feel like it's their right to have it. As long as they're not physically assaulting someone. How do I deal with my desire for everyone to have speech, even though I 100% disagree with them? I also do not think any states/government buildings should fly the confederate flag.

[swank]

Jul 10, 2015 14:13:25 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jul 10, 2015 13:49:24 GMT -5 @246baje said:

I am terrified for my son. I don't know that I as a foreign born black woman have the tools that I need to keep him alive.

We are seeing this struggle currently with my male cousins. They are 1st generation, and didn't ever get any of these talks. They think that some how, these things don't really apply to them due to a high SES status and where the live. 

My sister, other cousin, and I have had to come down hard on them to explain, that no one is going to care about their bank account if they get profiled. As they roll around in their shiny SUV from their parents, they better know how to place their hands in plain sight, follow directions, and answer accordingly (without any snark) if they are ever pulled over. 

It's a sad truth that may keep them alive. 

Just my two cents, I think you are doing exactly the right thing here but I am so ashamed, angry, and sad that this is necessary.   

[redwino]

Jul 10, 2015 12:39:19 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Jul 10, 2015 12:31:59 GMT -5 gibbinator said:

When my kids inevitably see their first black person (there is like one black family within 30km) and comment something like "look at her! Her skin's brown. Look mommy!" or whatever. What's the best wording for addressing this properly within earshot of that person?
Ds1 is just getting to the age where he likes pointing out differences.

Address it now before it gets to that. If she's familiar with racial diversity in books, toys, programming it's less likely she'll point it out as being uncommon.

I want ditto this. Talking about different skin colors in their books and shows will help them be less surprised by seeing someone in real life.

Eta: talking about shoes with kids won't help them understand race

[itsme]

I am Hispanic and moved to NC from a very diverse Hispanic-heavy state or part of the state. When I moved I was relieved that I had taken my then-husband's last name because I felt that I would be discriminated against when applying for jobs had I kept my common Hispanic maiden name. My first name is spelled differently than the common spelling (it's totally a made up spelling) and even throwing in my ex's last name I felt like maybe they would still think I was not white and pass me up. It's sad that I felt like I had to hide my race in order to be taken seriously.

In one of my jobs there the Hispanic people did the lower paying jobs and I would hear the non-Hispanics with the better positions saying very racist things about "the Mexicans". No one knew I was Hispanic (I can pass for white) so I guess they felt they could talk that way while I was in ear shot.

[sunshine608]

Jul 10, 2015 14:09:19 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

In the WIC thread the other day, I wasn't sure if I should acknowledge that she might have been stereotyped because of her race. Lots of other white people did, and it was well-taken. Do you find that generally the case? That those kinds of observations about race and disparate treatment from white people are well-taken? I know I'm not expected to be color-blind, just to treat everyone equally regardless of race, but I'm never sure whether comments related to race are welcome from a white person. So I don't say anything. But then I think maybe it's bad NOT to acknowledged in those kinds of cases.

I wish I were more comfortable/confident in this area. I think part of it might be related to growing up/living in an area where there is still a lot of open racism. I'm always afraid of being lumped in with those people.

I think it depends on the audience and in my circle ( I work in higher education) it is well taken, but I know it's not the case every where.

[redwino]

Jul 10, 2015 13:30:20 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

About under-representation of diversity in the media, obviously it would be great if more minority voices in fiction, film, etc. could get larger mainstream platforms, but how do you feel about white writers writing characters of color? And does it compare to a cis-gendered person writing a transgendered character, or someone without disabilities writing a character with disabilities?  Is it helping the cause of diversity or is it too often just tokenizing?

I think it depends on the way those issues impact the character. If the character is a detective who happens to be black but the story is about the detective work, anybody can write that. I think it gets murky once you have a white person writing about how that detective deals with racism at work. I hated The Help because I felt the characters were a little too happy to be maids and the men were depicted horribly. To me, that book is a prime example of a person writing using stereotypes and assuming experiences that they have little knowledge about.

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 14:51:45 GMT -5 @choco said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:38:36 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Yes, and it's fucking annoying! I'm over the poor and Black narrative. So over it! 
I will probably never buy anything in store at Dior after a security incident. 
I haven't shopped in PBK in over a year because of an are you the nanny comment.
There are stores where sales staff don't make eye contact or greet me upon entrance. So, I buy something from their competitors, out of spite, a la Pretty Woman.
If I am at a commission based store, and get a bit of a snub from an employee, I will seek out a different employee, make a huge purchase, and make sure the second employee gets the commission.
On the flip, I am extremely loyal to stores, and SAs who get it right the first time.

I'm really not one to be fucked with in this regard.  I'm a great client for personal and business purchases. 

Ooooh, I did a similar thing to Saks many years ago. Their big store in Manhattan pissed me the eff of when they continued to ignore me and waited on others when I wanted to buy a Chanel bag. I stomped out of there and went to the Chanel boutique instead, bought a bag, and went back to the store. I knew it was petty but I was so livid about being ignored. After the women saw me with the Chanel bag they started talking and I just looked over their shoulder and kept walking like they were invisible. Sorry random story.

[redwino]

Jul 10, 2015 13:43:53 GMT -5 toriwc said:

More about language (I've not read past page two yet)...I'm an English teacher. Standard American English. I've always felt funny correcting black kids when they use what I've always considered to be a dialect. Yet some things are grammatically incorrect based on SAE. I like to think I handle it sensitively, but are they thinking I'm an asshole when I make corrections? In writing, I don't feel funny, it's more when we're doing oral work.

I think it's perfectly fine to correct them during academic work. Your job is to teach them SAE. It wouldn't be great, in my opinion, to correct them while they're sitting at a table in the cafeteria but even that isn't horrible. They'd still be in an academic setting

[D2M]

Jul 10, 2015 14:21:08 GMT -5 glitzy07 said:

What is the appropriate way (or is there an appropriate way) to ask someone what ethnicity they are?  

For example, I have a friend whose dad is white (Italian) and mom is Asian.  If someone wanted to ask where specifically his mom was from (i.e. China, Korea, Laos, etc), is there an appropriate, non-offensive way to do so?  Because she very well could be from Washington DC, and asking where she's from isn't really getting to the answer you were looking for.  FTR, I know that she's Chinese, but I'm just using this as an example.

I don't think there is, really, but maybe someone non-white can offer something better.  I just know that people ask my H all the time where he's from and he's like, "Atlanta, bishes!"  It grates on him; he's more American than I am (I'm an immigrant) but I'm white and a native English speaker, so no one ever asks me. 

[bcarp30]

Similar to what someone else asked about using the term black vs AA, what is the correct way to address people who are Latin. We live in CO so there are many more Spanish speakers than black people and I don't know what to say. Mexican would assume they're from Mexico, but should I say Hispanic or Latino? I honestly don't know and don't want to be insensitive.

Additionally, if you live in an area that's predominantly white, how do you expose your children to diversity? I talked about this with @smorriso briefly and she had some great tips for opening and encouraging dialogue with DD about race and volunteering to expose her to all walks of life. My concern with the place I used to volunteer at and where I would like to take DD is that will be the only place she sees non-whites and that they are all poor. I want her to see people of all races being poor or successful and show that success and poverty don't know color.

[redwino]

Jul 10, 2015 14:19:25 GMT -5 bowies said:

I'm curious if anyone here has been followed around in a store because they are a minority. I keep reading articles about this. I appreciate putting sunlight on these "hidden" forms of racism. I also like to know which stores have institutionalized policies around this so I can avoid them.

Yes. More so when younger. I think it tends to be specific stores and not company policy. So I've been followed around a Dillard's and a Macy's but not every Dillard's and Macy's.

[greencrayon]

Jul 10, 2015 14:49:25 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:46:26 GMT -5 @choco said:

Yep. I've been followed many times at places like Target and Wal-Mart to places like Saks. I highly doubt these large corporations are stupid enough to have institutionalized policies in place due to their team of lawyers but the practice is very much in use. These things have happened to me in FL, NY, NV, and GA. It doesn't even matter if I'm wearing yoga pants or a business suit. 

greencrayon, I think people need to understand that free speech is available to everyone but that does not mean they are immune to consequences. The people who want to fly that hateful Confederate flag can do it all day long, but they now need to look that much harder to buy it from somewhere. 

Also, while wearing something can be a form of speech, being able to readily buy it is not.

Ok. I agree with this.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2015 11:11:38 GMT -5 @astrid said:

One of the things I have read is, "Black people are not dark skinned white people." What does that mean to you?

I have not heard of this, but I have heard "women are not small men", in the context of medical treatments.  

[glitzy07]

Jul 10, 2015 15:12:26 GMT -5 @246baje said:

Jul 10, 2015 15:09:40 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Honestly, I don't think there is a good way to ask this of a stranger or acquaintance,  without it coming off as, "What are you? No really, what are you?". KWIM? 

And really why are you asking? I think people should asks themselves that before they ask the "what are you?" Question or any of it's variants.

glitzy07

Great point, which is what always stops me in the first place.  I don't NEED to know.  It's more out of curiosity sake than anything and not wanting to make assumptions.  This isn't exclusive to minorities either.  I find myself interested for white people as well (i.e. Italian, Irish, German, English, etc).

Where I grew up in the Twin Cities, I was actually a "minority" as a white person in both elementary and high school.  We have a very large Hmong population here, and I remember thinking when I was little that all Asian people were Hmong and vice versa.  When I was in 7th grade, I met a new friend who was Asian and I wrongly assumed she was Hmong.  She was actually Korean and was sort of offended at the assumption.  So I wouldn't want to be offensive by making the assumption, but I also don't want to be offensive by asking the question, KWIM?

[Velar Fricative]

Jul 10, 2015 14:14:01 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:06:33 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

When one of my college classmates turned out to be a Chinese Puerto Rican I almost fell out of my chair.

I mean, reading more about PR (and other places) since then made me realize it's a really diverse place but at age 18 I was still grappling with the fact that all these new college classmates from outside my NYC bubble didn't get the Jewish holidays off from school lol. Then my mind got blown some more!

I'm surprised at this.  I'm pretty sure my parents would be, too.

He was 100% Chinese descent too. So since then I've learned about the Chinese population in the Caribbean and Central America and found it interesting.

[redwino]

If you're white, did you consider the racial diversity of your neighborhood and schools before moving? This is something most of the minority people I know considered before choosing a home or school. I've never heard white people I know mentioned it.

[carfar]

Jul 10, 2015 15:25:29 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:31:28 GMT -5 carfar said:

I actually don't see them as well taken. I often see a lot of "white splaining" going on when people of color mention they feel like they have received some sort of improper treatment. I think it's great if white people truly listen to the people of color and acknowledge the problem, and validate their feelings, and realize that can and does happen, and perhaps even speak up if they see something similar happening to someone in the future. Sometimes isn't about people of color "making it about race" it's about non people of color realizing, sometimes it IS about race. 

I think you are saying that it IS a good thing for white people to acknowledge the improper treatment might be because of race? Sorry if I didn't phrase my post well.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Absolutely a good thing.

[ava]

Jul 10, 2015 14:42:11 GMT -5 itsme said:

I am Hispanic and moved to NC from a very diverse Hispanic-heavy state or part of the state. When I moved I was relieved that I had taken my then-husband's last name because I felt that I would be discriminated against when applying for jobs had I kept my common Hispanic maiden name. My first name is spelled differently than the common spelling (it's totally a made up spelling) and even throwing in my ex's last name I felt like maybe they would still think I was not white and pass me up. It's sad that I felt like I had to hide my race in order to be taken seriously.

In one of my jobs there the Hispanic people did the lower paying jobs and I would hear the non-Hispanics with the better positions saying very racist things about "the Mexicans". No one knew I was Hispanic (I can pass for white) so I guess they felt they could talk that way while I was in ear shot.

This is very interesting to me. My H is half Hispanic, looks very white and has a very Hispanic last name. He has told me countless stories of how many times he has been singled out because of his last name only to be laughed at when they see how white he is, or questioned on his heritage as if he has to prove why he is so white but has a Hispanic last name. He is very proud of his heritage and the constant questions he gets when he gives someone his last name are really annoying for him.



I am white (Italian) and took his last name when we married and have worried about being discriminated against because of the last name as well. About a year ago I was told the company I work for would be eliminating my position and the first thing I thought of was how it may be harder for me to find a job with my married last name. I ended up keeping my job so it is a non issue for now but I worry about that for my DD. She is 1/4 Hispanic and looks very white. I worry her last name could be a hindrance for her growing up.


 

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2015 14:34:07 GMT -5 greencrayon said:

Can you guys help me reconcile this? I'm not exactly sure how to say it because it's still confusing in my head. It first started with the pizza place and bakery refusing to serve gay customers. Personally, I think that's stupid. There's nothing wrong or immoral or whatever with being gay. But I think that people are allowed to disagree with me. Now, the confederate flag is being taken down from government buildings, being banned, not being sold by target Walmart and Amazon, etc. I pretty much look at people that have confederate flags like I would look at someone wearing a swastica, but I feel like it's their right to have it. As long as they're not physically assaulting someone. How do I deal with my desire for everyone to have speech, even though I 100% disagree with them? I also do not think any states/government buildings should fly the confederate flag.

I think the infringement on free speech would be if the government banned the sale of Confederate flags and swastikas (ETA or arrested people for displaying them).

Target, Walmart, Amazon etc. removing these items from their shelves is different--it is individual businesses making a choice not to carry racist products, because the company leadership isn't hateful and racist, or for PR reasons/because they know they will lose business if they carry those items, or both. 

It is definitely inappropriate for government buildings to fly the Confederate flag, even if individuals still retain the right to display it under free speech. They don't have the right to avoid real world consequences for revealing their disgusting racism though. (A la bunch's husband cutting the Confederate flag off a truck recently, which was awesome.)

[bowies]

Well I don't think there's any danger in me purchasing something from Dior or Saks lol.

The most recent article I read dealt with Zara. It's not a written policy but apparently SAs are trained to follow minorities and have code words they employ. They won't promote people of color either. I've heard the same about Anthropologie but that appears to be store-specific.