Flame free racial thread.

[Deleted]

FWIW, my rapping subsitute word is "ninjas."

But you can only do this if you're Asian.

[satsuma]

#racewar

I do actually have a serious question about race and political party affiliation, but I'm a little too drunk/tired to articulate it well. I'll attempt it tomorrow.

[darnkatz]

I'm listening. I don't have anything to add at this point, but thank you for having this discussion. I'm always up for learning more.

ETA: I'll add in some book recommendations for kids.

Rachel Isadora has some fantastic fairy tales that feature black girls, as well as some other wonderful books for kids.


Brown Girl Dreaming (for older kids, but I also enjoyed it - it's a biography done in poetry about growing up black in the 60s/70s)
I Am So Brave! (DD2's favorite book right now)
Hi Cat! (Ezra Keats also has some other fantastic books)
A Chair for My Mother
The Skin You Live In
Chocolate Me!
Summer Jackson: Grown Up (chapter book)
Lulu Reads to Zeki
Full, Full, Full of Love
Keena Ford and the Field Trip Mix-Up (chapter book series)
Ruby and the Booker Boys (chapter book series)
Emi's Curly, Coily, Cotton Candy Hair
Lola at the library (tons of other Lola books too, which we love)
Make Way for Dyamonde Daniel (chapter book)
Sugar Plum Ballerinas (chapter book series)
I Am Truly
Princess Truly and the Hungry Bunny Problem
Penny and the Magic Puffballs
Princess Cupcake Jones and the Missing Tutu

[kershnic]

I keep trying to think of something productive that I can and I want to add to this thread, and coming up blank.

I understand the idea of white people not making the experiences of people of color about them (i.e. the red/blonde hair comments) and the importance of not making an effort to find alternate explanations when a person of color says they experienced something as a micro aggression or racism. But I also find that as a white person these two rules leave me with not much to add to a race conversation. Maybe that's okay or the point, I don't know.

I will say that it was a whole lot easier to experience myself as a non-racist person when I used to live in a white bubble. At my recently former employer we had a big issue where the director had a very obvious preference for promoting white people. I agreed and still agree that this was a problem. But when I look at his individual hiring decisions it's harder to be critical, largely because the white employees almost always had much better writing skills (I am in no way suggesting that there aren't plenty of people of color with good writing skills, but they didn't work in this office). Which of course often relates to educational privilege which relates to social class. But it takes a lot of effort to remember all of this stuff and keep it at the front of my mind.

[patbutcher]

I have found this thread interesting and informative.

I am mixed race - Arab/white. I have only experienced prejudice once and that was a big deal. A coworker who was in a role where she had to do stuff for me . Well, she refused to do anything I sent her because she assumed I am Muslim ( I'm not but my name is arab) and she is from Israel. She said in an email to her boss that she wasn't taking orders from Arabs. I had to go to HR who did nothing.

Sorry if this is the equivalent of the red/curly hair thing but I don't think it is.

Anyway, that's to say, I cannot possibly imagine what it would feel like to have that kind of prejudice against me all the time. It was so shocking and hurtful.

[patbutcher]

Jul 12, 2015 13:51:26 GMT -5 @applesauce said:

I'm so sorry you had that experience patbutcher. It's bad enough for that to happen but even worse that HR did nothing.

Looking back, I maybe should have pursued it legally or something. Both my boss and hr plus the ceo were Israeli so they were really not interested in my issues. I actually almost got fired for "making a fuss".
Eventually I got a new boss, the CEO was ousted and the coworker fired for having a bad attitude.

[humpforfree]

I've really enjoyed/learned from reading through this.
There is a good chance we will be doing foster care in the future. If/when we get placed with a minority kid, what are the main things I should be aware of, as a white mom? It terrifies me seeing black moms feeling unprepared to raise a black man... how am I supposed to do it as a white mom (who grew up in a relatively sheltered area)? I'm sure if & when it happens I will be back for more help, but I would really like to go into it eyes open.

[sewpinkgal]

I always appreciate when a board does these types of threads - every time I read through one, I learn at least a few things and for that I'm grateful.

I'm going to word dump here a bit. I've been struggling with how to talk about race with my older son (4 in Sept). I know that growing up "color blind" doesn't work, but right now, he just doesn't ask questions that give me a good lead in to the discussion. The child will talk to and play with anyone (like, I have gotten double-takes from people when they realize the super blonde kid is striking up a conversation with them) and I don't want him to lose that. He was obsessed with fireworks after the 4th and one day mentioned "you know, fireworks come in all colors!". So, I followed up with "Yep, just like people come in all colors, too!" He thought I meant the shirts they wore (whoops), but I brought it back skin color and we had a discussion about skin colors and how people may look different, but there are also lots of similarities (using people he interacts with on a regular basis as examples).

I know this is my white privilege talking, but bringing up these kinds of conversations with my son is hard for me, although I'm working on it. I'm also trying to remember that pointing out differences isn't the problem, it's making judgements on those differences is where things become wrong. These types of threads and some of the open discussions we've had in our parent ed group helps though. Thank you all for sharing so freely.

[sewpinkgal]

Jul 10, 2015 14:08:31 GMT -5 @246baje said:

Jul 10, 2015 14:03:49 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Side note: I have weirdly fond memories of Dukes of Hazzard. Like my Dad loved the show, it was a family time gathering. I clearly remember seeing Luke and Bo on the screen. However, with foreigners, it could have been part of the assimilation process like how we watched Dallas, Dynasty, and other American soaps. Again, looking back, my childhood was very strange as a child of immigrants, growing up in bubble of WASPs, in OC, in the 80s. 

We watched it too in the Caribbean but I was very little. I remember as my siblings got older they rejected it because of the confederate flag.

We also were read a bunch of questionable stories about golliwogs as children. I sometimes wonder wtf my parents were thinking.

I was at a church dinner this weekend and just learned about golliwogs during a discussion of the confederate flag coming down. I was like :?. Thankfully, the lady that brought them up did so to give an example of something that was part of her childhood, but that is completely inappropriate and shouldn't be continued today.

[Poppy]

Thank you @246baje for posting this thread, and thanks to those who've shared experiences and patiently answered questions. Nobody is obligated to do that but I am thankful. I have spent much of the weekend reflecting on what I've read.


sfy, I know I was not the intended audience of your explanation about how you would prepare your son for the world today, and of course you can ignore this if you want. But you said that you would try to prepare him earlier and more aggressively if you were raising him today (hopefully that paraphrasing is relatively accurate). Do you think that it's more dangerous today or is it a difference of awareness?

[Poppy]

Another question which is not exactly about race but is intertwined with it.

If you or your child has a name that is unfamiliar to most sheltered white Americans, particularly one that uses sounds that are not used in "American English" (if there is one such thing), how should someone approach saying your name with sensitivity? I asked the name of a child playing with my son at the library and his mother repeated it a couple of times. I asked how it was spelled, and I think I detected some discomfort on her part. She spelled it and volunteered the origin of the name. But I think that the name as given might not have been using the English alphabet. So that may have been a mis-step as it could be seen as a sort of "what are you" question (not my intent). A name is such a fundamental part of someone's identity and it's sort of a surface-level thing, as in, I can't very well become good friends with someone whose name I do not know. But my ear is not very keen, nor is my ability to pronounce words I have only heard. Any advice on how to do better would be appreciated!

[sent]

Jul 12, 2015 17:25:17 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Another question which is not exactly about race but is intertwined with it.

If you or your child has a name that is unfamiliar to most sheltered white Americans, particularly one that uses sounds that are not used in "American English" (if there is one such thing), how should someone approach saying your name with sensitivity? I asked the name of a child playing with my son at the library and his mother repeated it a couple of times. I asked how it was spelled, and I think I detected some discomfort on her part. She spelled it and volunteered the origin of the name. But I think that the name as given might not have been using the English alphabet. So that may have been a mis-step as it could be seen as a sort of "what are you" question (not my intent). A name is such a fundamental part of someone's identity and it's sort of a surface-level thing, as in, I can't very well become good friends with someone whose name I do not know. But my ear is not very keen, nor is my ability to pronounce words I have only heard. Any advice on how to do better would be appreciated!

Just say it as best you can closest to what mom said.  I don't think there is much you can do in this situation until the kid is old enough to tell you himself how he prefers to pronounce his name.  My name has sounds that aren't found in English.  I have no idea how my parents dealt with this when they took me places and I doubt they were offended when people constantly mispronounced it.  Over the years an "Americanized" pronounciation of my name has emerged and it's what I tell people.

I gave DD an easy-to-pronounce name to avoid this as much as possible in her future.

[sfy]

Jul 12, 2015 17:16:03 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Thank you @246baje for posting this thread, and thanks to those who've shared experiences and patiently answered questions. Nobody is obligated to do that but I am thankful. I have spent much of the weekend reflecting on what I've read.


sfy, I know I was not the intended audience of your explanation about how you would prepare your son for the world today, and of course you can ignore this if you want. But you said that you would try to prepare him earlier and more aggressively if you were raising him today (hopefully that paraphrasing is relatively accurate). Do you think that it's more dangerous today or is it a difference of awareness?

That's accurate. I think things are getting worse.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2015 17:16:03 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Thank you @246baje for posting this thread, and thanks to those who've shared experiences and patiently answered questions. Nobody is obligated to do that but I am thankful. I have spent much of the weekend reflecting on what I've read.


sfy, I know I was not the intended audience of your explanation about how you would prepare your son for the world today, and of course you can ignore this if you want. But you said that you would try to prepare him earlier and more aggressively if you were raising him today (hopefully that paraphrasing is relatively accurate). Do you think that it's more dangerous today or is it a difference of awareness?

I don't have kids, but I think things are getting worse.

When I was a teenager my family and I talked about certain prejudices and being pulled over for driving while black or being stopped unfairly by the police or being followed around the store or people crossing the street if it's late at night. These days, it's a legit concern that you can either be assaulted or killed by the police or other racist people simply for the color of your skin. Like how many 20something year old white women are getting shot while running away from the police? And I don't think it's just because we have social media these days that more people are hearing about these stories, I think they are occurring more often, although I don't have any concrete data. My boyfriend and I talk about this often. Although he's not from America, he's been here for almost 20 years now and was unfairly arrested in the past, but he feels things are also getting worse and has his guard up. 

[milang]

The Zoe kravitz article got me thinking. I'm primarily asking multiracial posters, what preparation do most biracial kids miss out on? And primarily when the mother is white? (DD is 4 and DS is 15 mos.)

[Ashley&Scott]

I had the same question about name pronunciation as Poppy. sent & @246baje thanks for the advice about how to approach it.

[thejackpot]

Jul 13, 2015 11:35:21 GMT -5 @applesauce said:

I keep thinking about all of this. I had a "duh" revelation when I was thinking this morning, and I wanted to put it out here explicitly for anyone else who may not realize. I also want to own my role in this. In the thread several weeks ago with the discussion of parenting, when race was brought up, and all of us white posters said nothing (I don't think any of us said anything anyway), something about it didn't feel quite right to me, but I wasn't sure what to do with it or how big of a deal it really was. It dawned on me this morning that when that happens, it's a microaggression. And by not saying anything, I contributed. In looking back, I recognize that I had a detached view of it, like it wasn't "on me" for not saying anything when no other white people were acknowledging it either. I mean, we were even called out for not saying anything, and as soon as I read that and felt that tug, it was on me. And I failed to act.

I am really sorry.

I am going to keep trying to do better. Thank you for being so gracious and patient with me.

----

One of the stereotypes I've identified in the past and didn't realize that I still hold is that black women would not want to be friends with me and/or were too cool to be friends with me. Because of all this discussion, I am realizing how much I still hold onto that one. In light of my reflection on the other thread, I now also wonder if it's something other white women feel to some extent. I'm not sure what to do about it, but figured I'd put it out there. I would be interested to hear others' thoughts if anyone wants to share.

I want to make sure that I am clear, you think that black women don't want to be your friend because you are white and they are black?

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2015 11:35:21 GMT -5 @applesauce said:

I keep thinking about all of this. I had a "duh" revelation when I was thinking this morning, and I wanted to put it out here explicitly for anyone else who may not realize. I also want to own my role in this. In the thread several weeks ago with the discussion of parenting, when race was brought up, and all of us white posters said nothing (I don't think any of us said anything anyway), something about it didn't feel quite right to me, but I wasn't sure what to do with it or how big of a deal it really was. It dawned on me this morning that when that happens, it's a microaggression. And by not saying anything, I contributed. In looking back, I recognize that I had a detached view of it, like it wasn't "on me" for not saying anything when no other white people were acknowledging it either. I mean, we were even called out for not saying anything, and as soon as I read that and felt that tug, it was on me. And I failed to act.

I am really sorry.

I am going to keep trying to do better. Thank you for being so gracious and patient with me.

----

One of the stereotypes I've identified in the past and didn't realize that I still hold is that black women would not want to be friends with me and/or were too cool to be friends with me. Because of all this discussion, I am realizing how much I still hold onto that one. In light of my reflection on the other thread, I now also wonder if it's something other white women feel to some extent. I'm not sure what to do about it, but figured I'd put it out there. I would be interested to hear others' thoughts if anyone wants to share.

You think that black women don't want to be friends with you because you are white? Did you have a bad experience in the past with a black friend? And what do you mean by too cool?

[thejackpot]

Jul 13, 2015 13:15:10 GMT -5 @applesauce said:

thejackpot I'm not sure how to explain what I mean, but I think because I'm not a cool enough white person? I don't mean that black women don't want to be friends with any white women; I mean me specifically.

I am not sure why they don't want to be friends with you.

I have always had white friends.( My family was one of three black families in my neighborhood. I spent many a day as the only black in my classes)  The older I get the number of white friends has diminished but that is largely because the number of people I consider friends is just smaller. I also prefer to have white friends around who are able to have frank conversations about race and we know how that is, a bit harder to come by. I don't think coolness is a factor at all. I have no desire to hang with people who embrace the confederate flag, apologize for Trump, think rioters are not people, don't acknowledge when police mistreat blacks and on & on. Basically in order to be my "friend" you have to acknowledge situations that face my race. And I don't mean in the way that I do or even initially but your heart/mind has to be open to experiences and not simply view them through a sheltered white lens. Plus you have to be able to say my name

[undecidedowl]

I've been following this thread but haven't posted yet because I didn't think I had anything to add. But, I do want to say something.

Just starting this thread and having this civil discussion with answers, and experiences, and all the emotions involved is such a big thing. Each person who read this thread and came away with a new appreciation of where we are with race issues and how far we have to go can now improve their actions and educate each of their children for a better future. I am one of those "sheltered white women." I looked up the stats and I have spent the last 20+ years living in areas that are 95-97% white. I had never heard the term micro-aggression before this thread let alone thought about what that meant.

The biggest thing I learned from this thread is that it is truly a luxury to never wonder if I was treated a certain way because of my race. I better understand that it is not worth pointing out that something 'may not have been about race' because just the fact that it could have been is hurtful and damaging enough to recognize and stand up against. I apologize for any previous times I may have turned a conversation away from race, just to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I will do my part to improve by being more aware of my words and actions and exposing my sons to racial diversity in the ways I have learned here.

Thanks for educating me and being awesome, MMM.

[WhatYouSee]

Jul 10, 2015 15:37:27 GMT -5 redwino said:

If you're white, did you consider the racial diversity of your neighborhood and schools before moving? This is something most of the minority people I know considered before choosing a home or school. I've never heard white people I know mentioned it.

Yes, definitely! We just moved from a very diverse area to one about 30 minutes away that's much less diverse. Diversity was an item on the pro/con list I made while we were deciding whether or not to move. Ultimately it was out-weighed by other factors, but it was definitely on my mind.

[ijack]

Jul 10, 2015 15:37:27 GMT -5 redwino said:

If you're white, did you consider the racial diversity of your neighborhood and schools before moving? This is something most of the minority people I know considered before choosing a home or school. I've never heard white people I know mentioned it.

We live in CO, which is pretty homogeneous and our neighborhood even more so. We didn't pick my DD's school solely based on it being more (racially and socioeconomically) diverse, but it was definitely a large selling point for the school over our non diverse neighborhood schools.

[WhatYouSee]

Jul 10, 2015 22:36:44 GMT -5 thejackpot said:

Jul 10, 2015 21:35:51 GMT -5 greycat said:

@246baje thank you for this post

Several people recommended reading books to kids. Any specific books I can look for?

Also, I would love suggestions on articles/books about racial bias.

I wasn't saying reading books like the books have to deal with race, I simply mean buy books where the people don't look just like you. If you are buying board books don't just buy ones with white characters. Make it natural. My dd is 22 months she has books with little girls/boys that look like her as well as other cultures.

Ex. Please Baby Please- just a regular board book but the baby is brown with curls like her.

I like More, More, More, Said the Baby: www.amazon.com/More-Said-Board-Caldecott-Collection/dp/0688156347/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436814650&sr=1-1&keywords=more+more+more+said+the+baby

[Deleted]

I watched the movie "Home" this weekend, and it features a biracial girl as the protagonist.

Plus it was a fun movie to watch.

Thanks for the insights; I live in a very different place with a very different racial make-up, but I've become a lot more aware of my privilege and bias in large part to the posts I've read from the women on GBCN. So when you get exasperated with us, know that you have done good and made people think and reconsider things.

[anna7602]

Thank you for bumping this, @246baje. I was out of the country last July and totally missed it. I've been trying to get through the 11 pages today, but there's really no more? Everyone's questions have been answered and their thoughts have been expressed? I find that hard to believe since the cute kids thread is still going...

[Deleted]

So I have this strange obsession with Kidada & Rashida Jones. I have since the 90s.

Anyways I was reading a 2005 Glamour article about them & it was really really honest and eye opening. Rashida looks more " white" like her Mother's family & has always struggled to fit in with black people ( she recounted some bullying at Harvard around dating black men since her skin was light) Rashida stated she identifies as black, white & Jewish

Kidada is darker & looks more like her father's side. She encountered racism her whole life she felt her sister Rashida was sheltered from & bc she could " pass" for white. At 10 she started identifying as "black"The sisters had some estrangement after their parents divorce.

Anyways it was really eye opening to see these 2 gorgeous women wit the same parents grow up with 2 unique racial experiences based on a few shades of skin color difference.

I also kinda believe Tupac is still alive & is with Kidada. It's my conspiracy theory. I just think he really loved her so much. But that's just a tangent.

[winecheery]

I remember this thread. This is/was worth re-reading. I didn't comment in it last summer, but I did read it back then.

Re-reading it made me miss pennypenny though. And page.

A good bump @246baje

I will try to think of some good contribution to add this time around.

[gibbinator]

I was just thinking this (generally) in relation to the kid-gloves stuff. Like, I remember all these very thoughtful helpful conversations from a year ago (I learned a lot, obviously still have a ways to go) which is why I'm not shocked that the regulars who have specifically and gently been educating us white folk have started to be rather less patient at this point. I would certainly be exasperated with the community as a whole by now if they just did not understand my constant re-explanation of 2+2.

[gibbinator]

@savestheday I literally did not know Rashida Jones is black. It really is crazy what a slight tone and hair difference do for one's experiences

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2016 18:16:23 GMT -5 gibbinator said:

@savestheday I literally did not know Rashida Jones is black. It really is crazy what a slight tone and hair difference do for one's experiences

Yeah it's pretty amazing how they both look JUST like their Mom but Kidada is just darker completed with curler hair.

They are both really gorgeous smart women. It was interesting to here Kidada say she felt less accepted by her Mother's family than Rashida her whole life even though her Mother assured her they loved her she felt something was off ( and later found out they were initially against her parents' marriage).