ajm796 you're either a LEO or a LEO's wife as per previous posts. I want to know - what should Tamir have done? I'm seriously asking this question, because I want to understand what you believe the proper response in this situation is.
In the 2 seconds between when the police car jumped the curb toward him and when he was on the ground bleeding - WHAT SHOULD HE HAVE DONE? The only thing he'd done wrong up till then was have a toy gun that looked too real. But open carry is legal in this state, and they believed him to be an adult, so as far as they knew he'd broken no laws. So what actions would have saved his life once the 911 call was made? What could he have done better? I need to know.
Don't lump us all together.
Sorry, I DEFINITELY didn't mean to. I was appealing to the fact that she has presented herself previously as somebody with some level of expert knowledge.
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
This is all true.
You know what though? How many white kids mess around with bb guns and dont get shot for 'inciting a riot?' I know my white husband messed around with...wait for it..RIFLES as a kid and never was accused of that..and he made it to adulthood.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
Children should not have to die for their foolish behavior, especially at the hands of trained police officers. This is not a child being foolish and causing their own death. This is negligence (at best) by the LEO that responded.
ajm796 you're either a LEO or a LEO's wife as per previous posts. I want to know - what should Tamir have done? I'm seriously asking this question, because I want to understand what you believe the proper response in this situation is.
In the 2 seconds between when the police car jumped the curb toward him and when he was on the ground bleeding - WHAT SHOULD HE HAVE DONE? The only thing he'd done wrong up till then was have a toy gun that looked too real. But open carry is legal in this state, and they believed him to be an adult, so as far as they knew he'd broken no laws. So what actions would have saved his life once the 911 call was made? What could he have done better? I need to know.
This is not at all to make light of this situation, but this analysis reminds me of an Encyclopedia Brown book. Which is to say that the logic of shooting this kid doesn't even pass grade-school-level logic.
There is literally NO compilation of facts here which adds up to "so, we thought he posed a real threat and our only option was to shoot him dead." None. There is NO JUSTIFICATION under any set of circumstances, under any assembling of the facts in any order or according to any set of principles that equals shoot 12 year old kid. ajm796 is not presenting "another side of the story" or an "unpopular opinion". S/he is just presenting bullshit. Just total drivel. Like:
WTH? You see nothing wrong with police marching up to anyone at a gazebo/covered picnic area and killing them before uttering one word to someone?! In an OPEN CARRY state. White or black, child or adult that is fucked up shit! Add in the fact that the dispatcher was TOLD it was a play gun and didn't relay that and the it was a CHILD and BLACK and that is even worse than fucked up.
This doesn't matter. I think the outcome of this case is atrocious, but this point doesn't matter. No good officer would take a citizen stating that they thought that it was a toy gun and make that be a different response. Now if the citizen thought it was a toy gun, why did he even call the police? That is a valid question. But this point should play no bearing in an officers response.
Yeah, I guess it matters to me that he was a child and playing with a non-lethal toy gun, but, it doesn't to police b/c they can't know and can't react differently.
I just wish we didn't have this type of gun culture where kids are killed when playing with guns, or open carrying guns is okay, or having conceal carry permits is pretty much a joke on the gun laws we do have, or police having to treat kids as active shooters or police even having to make a decision as to if a gun is fake/real from a distance is part of their training. I know I can't get rid of guns, but I do wish we could do more to make them less prevalent.
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
Lord help us all if there is a death sentence attached to 12-year-old foolishness.
One time when I was 12 years old, I locked my house keys in the house. I tried to kick open the back door, but my dad had reinforced it and I couldn't get in. So I pulled a lawn chair up to my bedroom window broke the window, knocked out the screen and climbed in. And I guarantee you that isn't the dumbest thing I did at 12 years old. I just had to piss like a mother fucker so I remember it clearly.
Anyway, in reference to the fact that it was a toy gun and not related via dispatch...how do they know it's a toy gun? Where is that information coming from.
“There is a guy with a pistol,” the caller had said. “It’s probably fake, but he’s pointing it at everybody.”
______________
Look, if you're going to roll up here with an unpopular argument, you at least need to get your facts straight. Actually do a little research instead of reading whatever the fuck facebook meme's you've been ingesting about this.
I really believe that one of the biggest problems in American discourse today is that people are no longer able to distinguish between facts and opinions. Donald Trump embodies that, but it's quite obviously playing out every day amongst regular people discussing all sorts of things. This case, and this poster are prime examples of that.
There is a fucking videotape here. And yet people like this still go on with their, "well, I just don't think it happened like that. I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION."
That's now how it works. That's not how any of this works.
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
So the thing to fix this is...
1. foolish behavior = death for (black) kids
2. all trigger happy cops should get blame (which this one did not - thus us being upset with no indictment)
3. parents deserve dead kids if their kids act like "foolish" kids - even if their mom has said something in the past and the kid didn't get it
4. Waving a gun around Ohio = inciting a riot and deserves instant death b/c open carry means holstered
Not a troll. I've been around for years. But I don't want to risk being called an asshole because I voice an opinion so I never post. Conversation is impossible with all of you.
Anyway, in reference to the fact that it was a toy gun and not related via dispatch...how do they know it's a toy gun? Where is that information coming from.
Has anyone stated whether or not the training officer told Tamir to drop the gun and show his hands when the cruiser rolled up to him? Tamir raises his shirt and reaches for the gun and pulls it out (it's found in the ground next to him from what I've read). What would cause him to do this? Why wouldn't he leave his toy gun in his waistband when the police pull up? Allow the pat down for weapons to occur and then proceed. Why did he even go to his waistband in the first place when they pulled up?
I guess no one finds this unnerving because he's a kid and that's a toy, right?
If you are a lurker who is so knowledgeable about us, then you know precisely why we are upset. Please feel free to use the highly functional search feature to review the numerous threads where we have discussed how 1) the police followed no protocol in flying onto the scene without assessing it; 2) they gave him less than 2 seconds to comply; 3) one officer had been near firing over emotional instability and the other had been invited over in a violence case but yet Tamir is the scary one; 4) no witnesses corroborate that they warned him; 5) even if he did receive warning, he had no time to comply (see 2 seconds); 6) he was a child whose brain was literally, medically undeveloped enough to understand the gravity of the situation; 7) if he was indeed reaching for the gun, it was probably to give it up so he wouldn't get in trouble (seeing as how he was a kid); 8) assholes keep ignoring the subtext and backdrop of what transpired; 9) assholes keep looking for a reason that child had to die; 10) all we keep saying is that black lives matter, and we are continually told all the reasons why (insert black person's name) mattered less in the situation that led to his/her death because of what his own actions. Also, I don't think it was his gun, and the police roughed up his sister and mama next to his bleeding body which they themselves ignored (all lives matter, amirite?)
now fuck right the fuck off and if you're going to continue to lurk, apprise yourself of our innumerable discussions prior to this. #climatechange
Post by sparrowsong on Dec 29, 2015 13:12:30 GMT -5
From the day Tamir was killed it's been the five minutes following the shooting that bothered me as much as anything. Exercise whatever mental gymnastics you need to to get to the point where an officer felt they needed to open fire on a citizen. Then what happened. They were close enough to see he's pretty tall but that's just a baby faced kid. Oops. And this is a plastic toy. Oops. Well let's stand around and chat now, while this child, wounded but not dead, bleeds to death at our feet.
These officers just did. not. care. Black lives are nothing. Even a child is not worth helping. So callous and heartless. These are not people I want as police. Murderous POS.
The troll sounds a bit like people I know, and I've learned not to engage them in charged conversations. They just like to work people up and then pat themselves on the back for "winning."
I didn't know it was an open carry state. That people weren't charged in this case is fucking outrageous
Lol at inciting a riot. I just wish people would stop acting like we don't notice their coded language. It's like how the original concerns about the BLM marathon protesters somehow turned into fears of a stampeding horde. We see you, people! It's neither subtle nor slick.
I'd give real cash to hear how these ideas are ingrained in the home, because all I'm privy to is the end result. Like the little girl in first grade who told me that she wasn't scared of me just because I was black. Um, ok. We're both like 3 feet tall and playing with puzzles right now. Sorry to scare you with my brown skin.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go loot the grocery store and maybe loiter at the public park with my child for a bit.
Yep. And this is exactly why I'm not surprised that the officers won't be charged with anything.
The responses of the 2 idiots in this thread are exactly why things haven't changed over decades.
I've said it before, but if young white women were getting disproportionately mistreated and killed by law enforcement, do you think people would be trying to justify law enforcements behavior? Hell no.
I'm tired of trying to reason with ignorant people.
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
Lord help us all if there is a death sentence attached to 12-year-old foolishness.
One time when I was 12 years old, I locked my house keys in the house. I tried to kick open the back door, but my dad had reinforced it and I couldn't get in. So I pulled a lawn chair up to my bedroom window broke the window, knocked out the screen and climbed in. And I guarantee you that isn't the dumbest thing I did at 12 years old. I just had to piss like a mother fucker so I remember it clearly.
Only when the kids are black. White kids get to do foolish things like play with toy guns.
Post by NewOrleans on Dec 29, 2015 13:36:42 GMT -5
Inciting a riot. LOL. Stampedes of frightened citizens were tripping over themselves fleeing in that video, didn't you see?
Link including a statement of timestamps designating at what points Tamir was waving the toy, inciting a riot, and the proximity of those times to the time of his murder, please.
Inciting a riot. LOL. Stampedes of frightened citizens were tripping over themselves fleeing in that video, didn't you see?
Link including a statement of timestamps designating at what points Tamir was waving the toy, inciting a riot, and the proximity of those times to the time of his murder, please.
I'd go further and include those who are passively indifferent. Or easily convinced, for that matter. Eagerly looking absolves too many people of the same damn crime. I was taught from an early age that my life and well being would be of little importance to a lot of white people. Because it's true. There wasn't a lot time spent on distinguishing between those who were actively racist and those who just knew the script. The key was to know that anyone could step into that role at anytime, so don't get caught slipping. I don't care what anyone says, I'm so grateful that my parents went there and I will do the same for mine until my personal experience proves otherwise. I have no intention of raising some starry eyed fool. That wouldn't be fair to her at all. I know because I've seen it happen and it's freaking sad.
if the, um, "weapon" had to be holstered in Ohio, why didn't someone blow this guy the fuck away post-haste?
I mean, look at this asshole right here. You want to see a riot incited? Shoot this asshole, and I guaranfuckingteeyou, Wayne LaPierre would be on the TV faster than you can say "Charlton Heston" railing about how the government has become the bad guys with guns, and lawful gun owners needed to take back their country.
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
No. A child is dead because of two cops' poor behavior. When you are a sworn officer of the law, you are held to a higher standard than 12 year old boys. Do not even try with this. No.
if the, um, "weapon" had to be holstered in Ohio, why didn't someone blow this guy the fuck away post-haste?
I mean, look at this asshole right here. You want to see a riot incited? Shoot this asshole, and I guaranfuckingteeyou, Wayne LaPierre would be on the TV faster than you can say "Charlton Heston" railing about how the government has become the bad guys with guns, and lawful gun owners needed to take back their country.
No, he is clearly engaging in wholesome family play!!!!1111111!!!
I mean, look at this asshole right here. You want to see a riot incited? Shoot this asshole, and I guaranfuckingteeyou, Wayne LaPierre would be on the TV faster than you can say "Charlton Heston" railing about how the government has become the bad guys with guns, and lawful gun owners needed to take back their country.
No, he is clearly engaging in wholesome family play!!!!1111111!!!
Who is the fucking other parent in this situation who says, "Hell yeah, use our kids as a prop on your jaunt around with your assault rife. That seems hella-safe and is teaching our kids that they too can incite fear in the neighbors hearts with guns someday on our tree-lined street with... just like Daddy."?!?!?!
if the, um, "weapon" had to be holstered in Ohio, why didn't someone blow this guy the fuck away post-haste?
I mean, look at this asshole right here. You want to see a riot incited? Shoot this asshole, and I guaranfuckingteeyou, Wayne LaPierre would be on the TV faster than you can say "Charlton Heston" railing about how the government has become the bad guys with guns, and lawful gun owners needed to take back their country.
this is kinda off topic, but it keeps crossing my mind - this is the point at which it always becomes abundantly clear that so many MANY 2nd ammendment rights activits are complete racist assholes. Because if you can support Father of the Year here in his right to pack heat, but not be completely appalled by Tamir Rice's death then you are a racist. Full stop. No other options. All the uber-libertarians and the strict constitutionalists and their friends should be ALL OVER this sort of overreach of government power. The tyrrany of the police state infringing on their right to enjoy public spaces with their firearm of choice. But of course they aren't. Because this kid is black. My tendancy toward Encylopedia Brown style logic (thanks asdfjkl :-p ) means I spend a lot of time being very 'WHHYYYYYY' about some people's support for the cops in stories like this because it's just not logical. I know the answer is racism, but it's just...why can't they SEE how little sense this makes? I mean, racism isn't logical either. Why can't I explain them out of being a racist?? JUST CONNECT THE DOTS HERE PEOPLE.
You don't trust the government. At all. You think everybody should be allowed to carry guns whereever and whenever they please. When somebody is believed to be carrying a gun in a way that is not otherwise unlawful and the cops shoot him...you're ok with it?? You assume the cops acted correctly?? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. Unless you just don't think the person in question is entitled to the same rights you are. And I mean...who actually admits to that? In their outloud voice? That's white hood level racism, not "I'm not a racist but..." racism.
Anyway....all that is the reason why this case (and all the others that are so much like it) are my litmus test for my "gun nut" friends. You can be as anti-gun control as you like, and we can still be friends because I can agree to disagree with you there - but if this case doesn't make you just as furious as the idea that the evil democrats might take your guns then I have no time for you. NONE.