And there have been plenty of social experiments conducted to show the difference in treatment when it comes to treatment of whites vs minorities.
There are several videos of white men waving guns around, threatening people, and the police talk them down instead of rolling up and shooting them.
There are social experiements of white people openly commiting crimes like shop lifting or stealing a bike and people just go about their business but as soon as it's a person of color people are on the phone with the police in a hot second.
So don't sit here and tell us it has nothing to do with this boy's race and that his parents should have taught him better. No. People should be taught not to be biased and/or racist.
we simply can't engage in the same legal behaviors that non-minorities can without fear of bias or getting fucking killed.
I mean, look at this asshole right here. You want to see a riot incited? Shoot this asshole, and I guaranfuckingteeyou, Wayne LaPierre would be on the TV faster than you can say "Charlton Heston" railing about how the government has become the bad guys with guns, and lawful gun owners needed to take back their country.
this is kinda off topic, but it keeps crossing my mind - this is the point at which it always becomes abundantly clear that so many MANY 2nd ammendment rights activits are complete racist assholes. Because if you can support Father of the Year here in his right to pack heat, but not be completely appalled by Tamir Rice's death then you are a racist. Full stop. No other options. All the uber-libertarians and the strict constitutionalists and their friends should be ALL OVER this sort of overreach of government power. The tyrrany of the police state infringing on their right to enjoy public spaces with their firearm of choice. But of course they aren't. Because this kid is black. My tendancy toward Encylopedia Brown style logic (thanks asdfjkl :-p ) means I spend a lot of time being very 'WHHYYYYYY' about some people's support for the cops in stories like this because it's just not logical. I know the answer is racism, but it's just...why can't they SEE how little sense this makes? I mean, racism isn't logical either. Why can't I explain them out of being a racist?? JUST CONNECT THE DOTS HERE PEOPLE.
You don't trust the government. At all. You think everybody should be allowed to carry guns whereever and whenever they please. When somebody is believed to be carrying a gun in a way that is not otherwise unlawful and the cops shoot him...you're ok with it?? You assume the cops acted correctly?? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. Unless you just don't think the person in question is entitled to the same rights you are. And I mean...who actually admits to that? In their outloud voice? That's white hood level racism, not "I'm not a racist but..." racism.
Anyway....all that is the reason why this case (and all the others that are so much like it) are my litmus test for my "gun nut" friends. You can be as anti-gun control as you like, and we can still be friends because I can agree to disagree with you there - but if this case doesn't make you just as furious as the idea that the evil democrats might take your guns then I have no time for you. NONE.
Can I steal some of this? I am having this exact FB fight with a white, pro gun cop and you said it better than I can in my rage.
I mean, look at this asshole right here. You want to see a riot incited? Shoot this asshole, and I guaranfuckingteeyou, Wayne LaPierre would be on the TV faster than you can say "Charlton Heston" railing about how the government has become the bad guys with guns, and lawful gun owners needed to take back their country.
this is kinda off topic, but it keeps crossing my mind - this is the point at which it always becomes abundantly clear that so many MANY 2nd ammendment rights activits are complete racist assholes. Because if you can support Father of the Year here in his right to pack heat, but not be completely appalled by Tamir Rice's death then you are a racist. Full stop. No other options. All the uber-libertarians and the strict constitutionalists and their friends should be ALL OVER this sort of overreach of government power. The tyrrany of the police state infringing on their right to enjoy public spaces with their firearm of choice. But of course they aren't. Because this kid is black. My tendancy toward Encylopedia Brown style logic (thanks asdfjkl :-p ) means I spend a lot of time being very 'WHHYYYYYY' about some people's support for the cops in stories like this because it's just not logical. I know the answer is racism, but it's just...why can't they SEE how little sense this makes? I mean, racism isn't logical either. Why can't I explain them out of being a racist?? JUST CONNECT THE DOTS HERE PEOPLE.
You don't trust the government. At all. You think everybody should be allowed to carry guns whereever and whenever they please. When somebody is believed to be carrying a gun in a way that is not otherwise unlawful and the cops shoot him...you're ok with it?? You assume the cops acted correctly?? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. Unless you just don't think the person in question is entitled to the same rights you are. And I mean...who actually admits to that? In their outloud voice? That's white hood level racism, not "I'm not a racist but..." racism.
Anyway....all that is the reason why this case (and all the others that are so much like it) are my litmus test for my "gun nut" friends. You can be as anti-gun control as you like, and we can still be friends because I can agree to disagree with you there - but if this case doesn't make you just as furious as the idea that the evil democrats might take your guns then I have no time for you. NONE.
Can I steal some of this? I am having this exact FB fight with a white, pro gun cop and you said it better than I can in my rage.
Not a troll. I've been around for years. But I don't want to risk being called an asshole because I voice an opinion so I never post. Conversation is impossible with all of you.
Anyway, in reference to the fact that it was a toy gun and not related via dispatch...how do they know it's a toy gun? Where is that information coming from.
Has anyone stated whether or not the training officer told Tamir to drop the gun and show his hands when the cruiser rolled up to him? Tamir raises his shirt and reaches for the gun and pulls it out (it's found in the ground next to him from what I've read). What would cause him to do this? Why wouldn't he leave his toy gun in his waistband when the police pull up? Allow the pat down for weapons to occur and then proceed. Why did he even go to his waistband in the first place when they pulled up?
I guess no one finds this unnerving because he's a kid and that's a toy, right?
I'd like to see if you'd like to converse about the actions of the police after killing Tamir Rice. What do you have to say about their lack of giving aid to a dead/dying child?
and assaulting another child (his sister) attempting to give aid.
In addition, it confirmed the account that Tamir’s mother, Samaria Rice, gave in the weeks after the shooting, that the police had tackled and detained her daughter as she rushed out of the recreation center, trying to reach her brother’s side
Again, I'd like to converse on this topic with you.
It's like when Ferguson happened and the cops rolled out real military tanks on people, and were violating all manner of constitutional rights. The anti-government, anti-gun control people should have been ALL OVER that. Instead, it was just a blip that they justified away. I don't get the disconnect.
It's like when Ferguson happened and the cops rolled out real military tanks on people, and were violating all manner of constitutional rights. The anti-government, anti-gun control people should have been ALL OVER that. Instead, it was just a blip that they justified away. I don't get the disconnect.
Yup.
Like this article. One of the only decent things this cesspool has ever done is this article. That got ignored.
I remember as a kid knowing I couldn't do the things my white friends did. Once they shoplifted a necklace while we were all in Claire's. I was completely oblivious (b\c I've always been a rule/law-abiding person. Too much anxiety not to be), but I was furious when I found out later. Because I knew if we got caught, the police would take me down with them even though I wasn't a part of it. Even in grad school I got called a stick in the mud by my pot smoking white friends, and I politely explained to them that should the cops roll up on this pot-smoking party, I would be the one under the jail. My parents didn't have to teach me these lessons, I knew it based on what I saw and heard.
The rules of behavior are simply different for many POC than they are for white people. The ways in which we have to behave in order to not be seen as suspicious (e.g. wear "respectable" clothing, hands out of pockets, no hoodies, polite and smiling-never angry or emotional, no weapons regardless of laws or intent) are just extensions of the ways that black people have behaved across time since slavery. You break the rules, and you may get pulled over, arrested, or worse-killed. I remember reading in Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry about how the black people couldn't even make eye contact with white people. Here in 2015 apparently this is still true: ( www.cnn.com/2015/08/30/us/eye-contact-traffic-stop-ohio-police-officer/ ). It is a fair assumption to say had this child not been born with the unfortunate genetic characteristics of large size and blackness, he'd most likely be with us today. It's sad that there even is a debate on this case. Any one of these cases recently is enough to make you throw up your hands and ask why. Collectively, it just makes me sad and scared for the lives of many people I care about.
And there have been plenty of social experiments conducted to show the difference in treatment when it comes to treatment of whites vs minorities.
There are several videos of white men waving guns around, threatening people, and the police talk them down instead of rolling up and shooting them.
There are social experiements of white people openly commiting crimes like shop lifting or stealing a bike and people just go about their business but as soon as it's a person of color people are on the phone with the police in a hot second.
So don't sit here and tell us it has nothing to do with this boy's race and that his parents should have taught him better. No. People should be taught not to be biased and/or racist.
we simply can't engage in the same legal behaviors that non-minorities can without fear of bias or getting fucking killed.
like the PP shooter or the guy in Charleston? In both cases they were known to have shot and killed others and yet they were escorted out safely. It's freaking ridiculous that people can't admit there is a racial issue at play.
And there have been plenty of social experiments conducted to show the difference in treatment when it comes to treatment of whites vs minorities.
There are several videos of white men waving guns around, threatening people, and the police talk them down instead of rolling up and shooting them.
There are social experiements of white people openly commiting crimes like shop lifting or stealing a bike and people just go about their business but as soon as it's a person of color people are on the phone with the police in a hot second.
So don't sit here and tell us it has nothing to do with this boy's race and that his parents should have taught him better. No. People should be taught not to be biased and/or racist.
we simply can't engage in the same legal behaviors that non-minorities can without fear of bias or getting fucking killed.
like the PP shooter or the guy in Charleston? In both cases they were known to have shot and killed others and yet they were escorted out safely. It's freaking ridiculous (BOLD!! Sorry, on the app) that people can't admit there is a racial issue at play.
Ridiculous in a very self-absorbed, uncaring, ignorant, detached to fellow humankind type of way
Not a troll. I've been around for years. But I don't want to risk being called an asshole because I voice an opinion so I never post. Conversation is impossible with all of you.
If you've lurked, then you have seem the extensive discussions.
You didn't post an opinion. You posted some vague bullshit that danced around the sentiment of 'he had it coming.' If you lurk, then yeah. You know how that's going to go.
Then you throw it on us, saying we are impossible to converse with? If you have a differing opinion, then I'd love to hear it if you can keep it to facts and not speculation, emotion, or innuendo.
If you can't do that, then bye Felicia. I'm not interested.
Well I don't think calling someone an idiot or a troll is really trying to get a person to see your point of view or have conversation. It is trying to shut them up. I think the only way we can really get change about race relations in this country to to have conversation and dialogue. And if a board of educated women can't have a conversation with someone they don't agree with, how can we expect more from our society? That is why I always try to respond to people rationally. Don't doubt for a minute that I am not passionate about my opinions, but that is not the way to create change. And are we really trying to create change and win the war or win an argument?
I agree. I haven't commented because (1) You and the other experts are holding it down. (2) the picture's of Tamir make me cry. I am just so upset.
Well I don't think calling someone an idiot or a troll is really trying to get a person to see your point of view or have conversation. It is trying to shut them up. I think the only way we can really get change about race relations in this country to to have conversation and dialogue. And if a board of educated women can't have a conversation with someone they don't agree with, how can we expect more from our society? That is why I always try to respond to people rationally. Don't doubt for a minute that I am not passionate about my opinions, but that is not the way to create change. And are we really trying to create change and win the war or win an argument?
it should come as no surprise that I disagree wholeheartedly. Well, maybe halfheartedly because I like you a lot, and you're certainly not wrong to feel this way. I think we could do with less dialogue and conversation and more calling folks out. The right to respectful discourse was forfeited a long time ago, and people should know it. Doesn't mean it can't take place, but it's not deserved. And now I'll stop cluttering up your board with my rants! Carry on!
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
Oh fuck off. Pound sand. Stick it. Whatever else because you are a fucking dumbass.
Just so I understand...everyone is upset about the victims age and the color of his skin? And those two factors are why the officers should be charged?
I am still catching up, but are you dim? No, you do not understand.
Not a troll. I've been around for years. But I don't want to risk being called an asshole because I voice an opinion so I never post. Conversation is impossible with all of you.
Anyway, in reference to the fact that it was a toy gun and not related via dispatch...how do they know it's a toy gun? Where is that information coming from.
Has anyone stated whether or not the training officer told Tamir to drop the gun and show his hands when the cruiser rolled up to him? Tamir raises his shirt and reaches for the gun and pulls it out (it's found in the ground next to him from what I've read). What would cause him to do this? Why wouldn't he leave his toy gun in his waistband when the police pull up? Allow the pat down for weapons to occur and then proceed. Why did he even go to his waistband in the first place when they pulled up?
I guess no one finds this unnerving because he's a kid and that's a toy, right?
Post by cookiemdough on Dec 29, 2015 21:45:38 GMT -5
I generally have patience, even for those that just may not "get" it. I just don't think the two posters in here today were here for that purpose. After admitting she saw the video, she proceeded to double down and then say that we were impossible just to further stoke the flames. The other thought it appropriate to call Tamir's behavior foolish. I would be really surprised if either continued to dialogue, mostly because I don't think that was the purpose. Getting some unknown poster to come in guns a blazing after supposedly observing the board for years just screams "troll"'to me. But that could be my own defense mechanism. This whole thing is so hurtful that the thought someone really has been observing the board for as long as they claim and to come in with that nonsense is disheartening.
it should come as no surprise that I disagree wholeheartedly. Well, maybe halfheartedly because I like you a lot, and you're certainly not wrong to feel this way. I think we could do with less dialogue and conversation and more calling folks out. The right to respectful discourse was forfeited a long time ago, and people should know it. Doesn't mean it can't take place, but it's not deserved. And now I'll stop cluttering up your board with my rants! Carry on!
Oh I am all about calling people out with their nonsense. But I think there is a way you can do it that will make a person shut down and not listen to anything else you have to say or you can continue to present facts and maybe something will stick. But 2016 is all about calling out the bullshit.
TBF, aim said she/he's been around for years so they obv stay to read, but don't participate because they can't have a conversation. We have them ALL THE DAMN TIME.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
The problem goes even deeper than this in that his parents probably have had to have many talks with him to not wave any kind of weapon around in public because of the color of his skin. My white-skinned 9-yr old could have done exactly what he did and would be alive today.
He's a CHILD. WAS a child. He's another dead, black child because black skin is scary to white cops and white neighbors. But please continue to tell this board, which includes several black moms who are having these same talks with their young children, that it's on them to stop white cops from shooting at them.
Well I don't think calling someone an idiot or a troll is really trying to get a person to see your point of view or have conversation. It is trying to shut them up. I think the only way we can really get change about race relations in this country to to have conversation and dialogue. And if a board of educated women can't have a conversation with someone they don't agree with, how can we expect more from our society? That is why I always try to respond to people rationally. Don't doubt for a minute that I am not passionate about my opinions, but that is not the way to create change. And are we really trying to create change and win the war or win an argument?
it should come as no surprise that I disagree wholeheartedly. Well, maybe halfheartedly because I like you a lot, and you're certainly not wrong to feel this way. I think we could do with less dialogue and conversation and more calling folks out. The right to respectful discourse was forfeited a long time ago, and people should know it. Doesn't mean it can't take place, but it's not deserved. And now I'll stop cluttering up your board with my rants! Carry on!
Somehow, I agree with you both. I am trying to do better with my temper, so I had to step away from this thread because I was 45 hot. Would it feel good to say those two posters are stupid fucking assholes? Why, yes, it does, mostly because it's true. Is it productive? Of course not. Does it advance the cause or even the conversation? No. I do think when you put the blame for the death of a child on the child or the parents of the child, rather than the person who murdered him, you're not looking for productive conversation. But is it possible to be rational, logical, and amenable enough, yet still passionate enough to truly engage someone who doesn't even want to be engaged? I think so. I know I'm not able, not even on my best day even when my steps are being ordered, but I do believe there are people who are capable. They are the ones who should try.
A 12-year-old child was shot to death and left to die alone on the cold snowy ground, his sister was tackled as she tried to run to him. And nobody will be punished for that. Some people here are trying their best to convince others that this child's death was OK. The shooting was OK, letting him lay there and die was OK, keeping his sister from him was OK? Is this REALLY what these two people have popped out of their holes to say?
And if you can't have a discussion with us, why do you lurk and read what we are discussing? Why are you here?
ajm796, what is wrong with you. How in the world can you look at that video and not see anything wrong with it? I looked at your post history and it looks like you have kids. If this was your kid and the police rolled in shot him without any warning or attempt at trying to go about this another way, how would you feel? That would be ok? That's just the way police work and we should be fine with it?
The only way that you can look at that video and not see a problem is if you don't see a black kid the same way you see your own kids. You have to see him as something less if you can watch that video and not be appalled by what happened. I'm disgusted.
Frankly, I wish that you would get banned. You are either a troll or a racist asshole and either way, I would rather not have you here. I agree with penny that attacking someone is not going to do anything to change someone's perception, but I think that you are beyond help.
Post by berrysweet on Dec 29, 2015 23:57:29 GMT -5
This is a complete tangent, but I just logged on to Twitter because I live in Oregon and wanted to read what was being said about Chip Kelly. And then I noticed the Twitter sidebar:
Chip Kelly 236K Tweets
Tamir Rice 174K Tweets
Hit me like a ton of bricks. And I'm just as guilty as anyone else.
I would also like to say, that we give far too much damn credence to "oh, they got a call of a man waving a gun around". John Crawford got blown the fuck away because some dude called and lied his ass off about him walking around, pointing a rifle at kids and "loading it". Too bad it was a fucking BB gun, that was sold IN the Walmart, that he was carrying around the store to buy, and video showed him pointing it at absolutely nobody. Unsurprisingly, nobody got charged in that either, not even the lying son of a bitch who called the cops.
Shit, at this point anybody could call the cops and claim somebody they didn't like was waving a gun around and they'd apparently be cool to just roll up and blast them because, well, somebody said.