Hugs @bunnybean. One time DH was out of town and I was struggling to carry the car seat down our back stairs and Ben was in my way refusing to walk down the stairs and finally I just said "move!" He went around screaming "move" for days. Two year olds test all the limits. It's part of figuring out their place in the world. Be kind to yourself.
In a past thread, didn't you say that you wanted to know where you were being microagressive and borderline racist? Didn't you specifically say you wanted to learn, and you hoped people would call you out, on this shit to help you on your postracial path, or some shit? As if each one teach one is supposed to be the job of every member of a minority you encounter, whether they want to engage in the discussion, at the moment or not? Hmmm, you may want to go back and re-read this thread, and think about your stance and tone.
I did say that, yes. Obviously it is not the job of job of minority members to teach me how to act but it was in response to the thread where people were posting that they had made to feel uncomfortable and I said I would want to know if I was making someone feel that way unintentionally. I have appreciated several of the discussions on race and class on this board.
That being said I don't agree with being labeled an "uninvited research assistant" in a thread where dozens of people were having discussions. And the implications that the thread was over my head? I have been practicing law for a decade and had a year long research fellowship before that. I don't need to eat a burger with you but this is my post as much as it is yours.
@kirkette , I have like a million things I want to say, and most of them I know are passive aggressive and some aggressive and other possibly micro-aggressions, so I am not going to share any of those.
Instead I am going to say this, which will likely sound condescending somehow, even though it is not being shared with that intent in the least: a good number of your posts in this thread are legitimately incomprehensible, to the point of being worrisome. You do not sound like the Kirkette of 2015. I know you said that this was 2016 and you were letting loose on racists and all that, I totally get that...but I can't follow most you are trying to say. I don't understand if people have to be educators or scientists to participate in conversations with you anymore - that's isn't meant to be passive aggressive - I don't understand what your point(s) is/are...and I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
I want to engage with you, I want to discuss stuff, but I feel like inevitably one of two things while happen: the wrath of Kirkette or walls of text I can't follow, or the two combined. It's so odd because other than the last few weeks, you have never 'come off' this way, it's a very sudden and noticeable change. You be you, that's fine, I just want to explain what I am seeing/reading/interpreting.
I can't find the gif of the stormtroopers coming around the corner, then seeing *someone* freaking out, then they turn around and just walk away. If someone can find this for me, please tag me, and place it here.
I'm honestly trying to explain myself. Look around, toledo are there any other minority posters here, or liking these posts? Wouldn't the silence say something?Â
Wait, what? Now there's a problem with remaining silent on what you seem to have explained was between you and niq, with all of these uninvited research assistants around.
I'm honestly not getting what you want from us here. It seemed like you and niq and msniq hashed it all out.
But maybe I'm misunderstanding all of it, both what I quoted here and your recap of your debate with niq. In which case, mea culpa.
What? So, we're not capable of understanding you? Lol, I don't think you're hearing, or understanding what we're saying. This isn't about race, you could be talking about unicorns and I'd feel the same. It's about how you 'sound', which has been incomprehensible lately, and a bit concerning. A lot of people are concerned, not just one or two.
That's the exact thing mofongo, I'm honestly not sure you can. For you, it's not about race. For me, it's always going to be about race, even just a little bit. I don't have the luxury of turning on and off the race switch. It colors every conversation that I have. I didn't bring it up much for years, because I didn't really understand just how much this stuff impacts my daily life. I didn't see it clearly until my daughter was targeted. Now, I can't unsee it.
I would argue, that my spelling errors and rant length aside, most minority posters who are at a place where they can be honest with this stuff, would notice things in a slightly similar manner to mine. It gets exhausting trying to bring this stuff to light, knowing that someone is going to throw it back in your face, or not call a different poster out for being shitty. So, they just don't speak.
Ex.
Did anyone ever call Stellas out for her racist shit, or did people jump in with,"but she's nice. We like her!".
Did anyone jump in yesterday, and say, Hey niq, that was extremely shitty to brush off women, especially women of color, who are taking the time to help you see things from another perspective?
Did anyone say, hey rugbywife, that was kind of weird how you blew up at Kirkette, with your "I don't want to discuss race with you, because I'm not worth your time. I'm going to a party" comment, for not answering a race question in the heat of the moment.
No, people are being bystanders, popping popcorn, and avoiding conflict. I get it. But, it's wrong. Ethically it's wrong, when it persists so much so that people won't post their thoughts. So there's a rub, with the "We're calling you crazy. You can't tell you are being crazy. Admit that you're crazy. We care now.", approach.
If people don't stop being afraid of conflict, and don't own their shit, then we can't discuss these things. If we can't discuss these things in a "safe" online environment, how the hell are people supposed to stop this shit when it happens in real life?
lol. Ok. So my responses here are weird. Lol forever. I have tried so fucking hard to be kind and understanding and patient. You are entirely missing my point and the point others are making.
@kirkette - this is the last thing I'll say b/c I really don't want to argue with you, but it's not just your posts about race, it's your posts about anything lately. They've all sounded off, that's what I'm saying. I think that's what has people worried about you. The overall writing style and my difficulty with understanding what you're saying, in general.
I think this is a very important point that has gotten buried while kirkette defends her behavior in this thread. The issue here isn't about how kirkette has responded in *this* thread or other threads about racism. The issue is about how kirkette has responded in recent threads about *anything.* It has all sounded unhinged and for a while alternated between irritating and entertaining but now -- maybe after seeing such a high concentration of it in one place? -- it seems more worrisome than anything else.
Despite the fact that I am actually angry about a way you have portrayed me in some of your responses @kirkette, saying that I should have been called out for my comments to you, I am going to try again to explain my thoughts.
I know that you might be interpreting a white woman comments about your tone as calling you an 'angry black woman'. That actually isn't my point. You have many reasons to be angry, about the state of race relations, the state of education, etc...I am not calling you an angry black woman.
You have, however, gone from sounding not just educated, but more importantly, coherent, to entirely incomprehensible. And it isn't because of typos or because you are typing on an iPad.
Part of it is form and part of it is content. Your posts recently have been difficult to follow from a syntax standpoint, for example referring to yourself in the third person and walls of text that wander in areas that seem irrelevant.
The content part is even more challenging. My very first post in this thread was asking how what Niq was posting involved race or feminism. I didn't understand why that was brought up, so I asked. Yes, I am white. So I guess it is my white privilege that kept me from seeing what you saw so clearly. I am still not entirely sure I agree with you, but that's because I couldn't follow any of your commentary because it was so convoluted.
Thing is, you didn't used to be like this. Your posts used to make sense. I am not the only person who is saying this about your posts. My inability to understand your points isn't because I am white, it's because you aren't making any sense.
Despite the fact that I am actually angry about a way you have portrayed me in some of your responses @kirkette , saying that I should have been called out for my comments to you, I am going to try again to explain my thoughts.
I know that you might be interpreting a white woman comments about your tone as calling you an 'angry black woman'. That actually isn't my point. You have many reasons to be angry, about the state of race relations, the state of education, etc...I am not calling you an angry black woman.
You have, however, gone from sounding not just educated, but more importantly, coherent, to entirely incomprehensible. And it isn't because of typos or because you are typing on an iPad.
Part of it is form and part of it is content. Your posts recently have been difficult to follow from a syntax standpoint, for example referring to yourself in the third person and walls of text that wander in areas that seem irrelevant.
The content part is even more challenging. My very first post in this thread was asking how what Niq was posting involved race or feminism. I didn't understand why that was brought up, so I asked. Yes, I am white. So I guess it is my white privilege that kept me from seeing what you saw so clearly. I am still not entirely sure I agree with you, but that's because I couldn't follow any of your commentary because it was so convoluted.
Thing is, you didn't used to be like this. Your posts used to make sense. I am not the only person who is saying this about your posts. My inability to understand your points isn't because I am white, it's because you aren't making any sense.
I will try and respond, but you can't fly off the handle again. Just hear me out. I'm not being snarky with any of this, trust me.
1. Why are you unsure if you agree with me that niq 's dismissive post involved racism, or feminism? That's something to think about.
2. By nature, why wouldn't his actions and brush off, to multiple female posters, with first hand experience, contain elements of racism and sexism?
3. Even when presented, with other opinions, on why his loaded education data won't tell the true picture of the problem, he still didn't see it. Why, when people who have more context of the subject matter, are telling him he's in the wrong, why was he holding on so tightly? No one is saying niq is a racist, sexist, or bad person. It's just the comment was off.
Again I tried to point that out, this morning, using humor and a hot topic around the country (racism and sexism in science, there's even a Big Bang Theory episode that is pretty spot on) to make my point. I guess the analogy fell flat. I'm sorry I offended posters, who couldn't see my point. I missed where jenny1980 caught it early, but by then we'd engaged in a power struggle.
I used to heavily edit my posts, and post less, due to time constraints. But, the board is getting more narrow minded and polarized, so I felt like speaking out on some things. Mostly I'm trying to use humor, if it's a heavy topic.
I will read the rest, and think about it all, but you have repeatedly accused people of being passive aggressive and what not here, and yet this is your lead statement. I never flew off the handle, I was actually never angry until you tagged my name, questioning why other didn't call me out for my offences. That made me angry because I have tried to stay really objective and not take anything personally or make anything about me, despite insinuations that I can't possibly understand things because I am a white, middle class, Canadian woman. But even when I was angry I replied calmly. And yet this is what you are focused on.
I will read the rest and wade through my thoughts.
I'm afraid to chime in here but I'll just say I'm truly trying to understand, not being snarky. Given points 1,2, and 3 above, it seems like you are saying anyone who disagrees with a POC or a woman should automatically be assumed to be doing so because of racist or sexist reasons. Is that a fair reading of those points?
I will read the rest, and think about it all, but you have repeatedly accused people of being passive aggressive and what not here, and yet this is your lead statement. I never flew off the handle, I was actually never angry until you tagged my name, questioning why other didn't call me out for my offences. That made me angry because I have tried to stay really objective and not take anything personally or make anything about me, despite insinuations that I can't possibly understand things because I am a white, middle class, Canadian woman. But even when I was angry I replied calmly. And yet this is what you are focused on.
I will read the rest and wade through my thoughts.
I will try again.
Didn't you get upset last night, when you said I wouldn't engage with you? You said I didn't think you weren't worth my time, right before you said you were going to a 40th anniversary dinner. I was shocked reading that. I tried, to resolve that this morning, and I thought it was okay, but then you got upset again. I think none of those things about you personally. I just didn't have time to respond. Perhaps I should have rephrased the above phrase as, don't get upset, I'm not judging you. I'm going to say somethings that are by nature offensive and upsetting, and don't make any sense, but they are they facts at hand. They are not my personal views, they are facts deeply looped into American society. I can't speak for Canadian society, that's why I mentioned where you are from. It plays a role in the discussion.
Here are my posts:
Last night:
Well I guess I am not worth your time then.
I have tried, time and time again, to learn about racism on these boards. I post articles about racism, I engage in topics even though I am scared shitless of saying something stupid. I know it is important to learn and engage and not make things about me.
More recently, and especially tonight, I felt like I wanted to stop discussing race on here. Then I realized that wasn't what I really felt. I just want to stop talking about race with you. I don't need my hand held but I also don't deserve to be brushed aside because I am too dumb or not worth the time. I want to engage in discussions about race with people who actually want to explain things to people, not post angry faces and pink or white chairs. I have a lot to learn, I know, but this isn't the first time you have indicated that you have no time for me.
So I guess the feeling is mutual.
And with that, I am out. I have to go celebrate a friend's 40th.
And this morning, I posted this: Kirkette , I have like a million things I want to say, and most of them I know are passive aggressive and some aggressive and other possibly micro-aggressions, so I am not going to share any of those.
Instead I am going to say this, which will likely sound condescending somehow, even though it is not being shared with that intent in the least: a good number of your posts in this thread are legitimately incomprehensible, to the point of being worrisome. You do not sound like the Kirkette of 2015. I know you said that this was 2016 and you were letting loose on racists and all that, I totally get that...but I can't follow most you are trying to say. I don't understand if people have to be educators or scientists to participate in conversations with you anymore - that's isn't meant to be passive aggressive - I don't understand what your point(s) is/are...and I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
I want to engage with you, I want to discuss stuff, but I feel like inevitably one of two things while happen: the wrath of Kirkette or walls of text I can't follow, or the two combined. It's so odd because other than the last few weeks, you have never 'come off' this way, it's a very sudden and noticeable change. You be you, that's fine, I just want to explain what I am seeing/reading/interpreting.
Edited for a horrible grammatical error!
If I sound angry in any of them, that isn't the case. I was frustrated because I interpreted one of your responses to indicate that you didn't have time to explain something to me because it was too complicated. In a later post you explained that you meant that it would take too long because of how large of a scope of historical context it encompassed. Ok, got it.
I said I was going out because, I was going out and wasn't going to post for the rest of the night. It wasn't meant as a slight, it was meant as a 'I have plans, I won't be here to continue discussing stuff'.
I said I was done talking to you about issues related to race because I feel like you are yelling it at me/us...I don't expect any POC to tip toe around me, or sugar coat things to make them easier for me to swallow, that's not what I am expecting. But at the same time, you know, working in education, that screaming an angry message at someone isn't going to get them to engage at a level that will lead to meaningful learning. It either ends in a shouting match or in the person walking away. People are walking away from discussions with you. They won't come out and say it, but they are. I want to talk about things (which, according to other posters probably won't happen, because this isn't a safe place to talk about race, which makes me sad), with you and with other POC, but I also don't want to be screamed at.
Last night I didn't really understand your perspective in respect to your discussion with Niq. I didn't tag you in my initial question because I didn't want to make it about 'you', I thought maybe someone else could explain to me what I was missing. In the end, to be honest, my interpretation was as hermione wrote this evening...that if someone dismisses points you (or other WOC) make, it is because of their white privilege or, in Niq's case, because he is male. Personally, last night, that felt like a stretch to me. You posted some questions above, for me to think about, and I plan to, but honestly, what hermione wrote makes sense to me.
Anyways, it is going to take me a while to reflect on your questions, mostly because it is bed time for me and I am exhausted and worn out from trying to express my thoughts. I will think about them and respond at some point though, because even when I say I am done discussing things with you, I don't WANT to be.
I'm afraid to chime in here but I'll just say I'm truly trying to understand, not being snarky. Given points 1,2, and 3 above, it seems like you are saying anyone who disagrees with a POC or a woman should automatically be assumed to be doing so because of racist or sexist reasons. Is that a fair reading of those points?
hermione, you don't need to be afraid. You've never been flat out rude, bitchy to me, or most other posters. That's not your nature, so feel free to ask any question you may have on this subject. I may need to pause for a moment, and tend to my family, but I'll come back and check later.
It wasn't that those points were disagreed upon. It was how those points were disagreed upon, and how it can be perceived from someone on the other end, if they are speaking to a minority. It could be perceived as being both racist and sexist depending on who's making the comment.
That's the nature of microagressions. The intent doesn't matter. The actions totally matter to the person on the receiving end of the microagression. The apparent, and hidden biases people are bringing to conversations matter. Context matters. Race & class discussion are not a matter where you can say, "Oops, my bad" if you don't have a relationship with the person on the other end. If the person on the other end doesn't want to engage with you, and you are a member of the dominant culture, you can't force the discussion on your terms. There's no way around it.
I knew niq well enough to use this as a teachable moment for him. So again, poor, niq. When he went, "pfft", and kept right on going with his "facts", it got tricky quick, and I went all in.
Knowing his social position, and personality, as it's not very different from mine (this matters), I had to get him to see where he was blind. He's usually very open and receptive. He has the emotional maturity to behave like an adult, even when wrong, or embarrassed. We joke about the same weird upbringing, private school shit, like social dance and Duke loving parents. Hence, me calling it the battle of the silver spoons. If it was someone other than niq, (the only male on an all female board), or someone I don't know well enough, I'd probably let it go, and not care to show them how their actions have meanings, despite positive or neutral intentions. Honestly, I'd just let them get their ass kicked, or fired IRL. Again, I'm kind of an asshole that way.
For niq to come around and see things from a different frame, I had to: 1. Push him to get angry 2. Take the blows from others watching our fight 3. Wait for him to respond 4. Comeback after doing life shit 5. Wait again 6. See if he had come around
He came around. I knew he'd get there if I pushed him, and gave him time to stop focus on winning the debate, and using his numbers. Numbers are not people. He cared about the issue we were debating. I get that.
When he realized, I didn't actually leave the conversation, and think he a racist/ sexist at heart, everything was fine. I apologized for being a douche, and pushing his buttons.
He needed to know that he can't take that same approach IRL. Not to women, and especially not to women of color, especially in Science and Engineering. I was trying to shake him up so he could see what he was doing. He couldn't see it in the moment, but I knew if I pushed him hard enough, he'd come out of his tunneled vision. This blindsidedness , is often a trap for very linear academic thinkers. In fact, it's why race riots, and heavily charged protests, keep popping up on college campuses across the country.
Does that answer your question?
I have a hard time wrapping my brain around intent being irrelevant. Micro aggressions and responses to it are increasingly popular topics in the collegiate debate world and I struggle with intent there as well.
For instance, I would assume that niq would have had the same dismissive response of "pfffft" if he was having that discussion with a white male. But, if I'm understanding the literature and discussions on micro aggressions correctly, that's irrelevant because of the receiver's (in this case your) interpretation. If that's the case, it seems like everything is a potential micro aggression and people are better off keeping silent to avoid the risk of offending someone. But silence only perpetuates race issues that need frequent and serious discussion.
I have a hard time wrapping my brain around intent being irrelevant. Micro aggressions and responses to it are increasingly popular topics in the collegiate debate world and I struggle with intent there as well.
For instance, I would assume that niq would have had the same dismissive response of "pfffft" if he was having that discussion with a white male. But, if I'm understanding the literature and discussions on micro aggressions correctly, that's irrelevant because of the receiver's (in this case your) interpretation. If that's the case, it seems like everything is a potential micro aggression and people are better off keeping silent to avoid the risk of offending someone. But silence only perpetuates race issues that need frequent and serious discussion.
Anyway, I appreciate your response.
You're partially there. Again, it's hard to make sense of a structure and societal constructs designed not to make sense. Historically, they are designed not to make sense, in order to preserve power.
In the instance above, you really can't assume anything, especially if you don't actually have some sort meaningful reciprocal relationship with the other person, in the minority position. Know that you, as a white female, are inherently given more privilege and power than any other sector of society, except white men. That's not up for debate. That's a fact. That's why the Classical Feminist approach, is inherently racist.
Classical Feminists do not want to be equal to men. They only want to be equal to white men. People of color are often left out of the Feminist discussion, unless it's with heavy handedness, or for votes. If you can't accept that fact, do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Stop there. You have to own it, and keep owning it, and deal with the internal discomfort that comes with being that position, even if it's not your personal view.
Everything has the potential to be a microagression, yes. This won't change unless people in the majority power dynamic, stop and think about what they are saying, how they are saying things, and to whom, before proceeding. This is extremely important. If the majority view gets so out of hand, that no one, or very few, who are in the minority position, even feel comfortable speaking up, that's a serious problem. Members of the minority, don't need to speak up, because it may not be their fight, or they just may not want to engage at the moment. Sometimes, when you are in a minority position, life is easier not to rock the boat of the majority.
I chose to check niq, again, because he just can't do that in today's climate. Not okay, even if his intentions were good. People across the country are on edge with race and class stuff. It could be due to the election year. It could be due to the fact that minority voices are refusing to be silent, and are starting to fight back in protest. It's not going to just go away. That's what happening in news at college campuses. That's what's happening in the Sciences. That's what's happening at the Oscars, and the entertainment industry. People in the minority have had enough of being told to "shh", "wait", or "stay in their lane", because they are "crazy". Jokes and jabs with that thought process behind them, just won't work. If your online friends don't check you, you will get checked IRL, and the consequences will be more dire.
Think of it this way. If you'd been left out of , or misrepresented in discussions, history, the media, and every other part of society, wouldn't you be a tad bit upset when you were dismissed yet again? Wouldn't it get under your skin, even more, when it was a friend, or peer who you consider to be equal, in any other way? That is the point I was attempting to make this weekend.
I understand the things you are saying. I understand that I'm white and that inherently gives me great privilege. I understand that minorities are left out of and misrepresented throughout history, in media, and across society.
I agree that without a meaningful reciprocal relationship with the person in the minority position, I cannot possibly predict what will be viewed as a micro aggression. Anything could be a micro aggression. So, if my intent is irrelevant and anything I say or do can be considered an act of micro aggression, I don't know how to stop and think about what I'm saying, how I'm saying it, and to whom it is being said. It seems like my best option is to stay silent.
Love you, @kirkette . And I agree with most of what you said. And I don't think you're crazy because I've known you in real life for years.
But, damn, I need to school you on how to be succinct.
Your attempts to insert humor and narrative have truly obscured your intended missive.
miso said it better than me.
And @kirkette is not crazy, I promise. We had a lovely play date together just a month ago, and I've seen her offering help to a bunch of people on this board recently.
It's that one will, in most discussions, at some point. And that's fine, but it's not actually teaching anyone anything. It is a very failed experiment. I learn much more on CEP by lurking than I have on this board, as far as American race issues go.
I mean have you ever seen how some people act about ear piercing. Calling it trashy, etc. Not even caring that real people may have pierced their kids ears for a variety of reasons. And even though this has been pointed out as a possible cultural difference, it still comes up every few months about how trashy it is. And not matter how many discussions there have been about cultural names and differences, every few months there is a post about look at this awful name I just heard even though I didn't use Google to see if it was a real name first. Hell, we had someone on here call someone kid's real name made up even though it is a straight up FOR REAL name. Just so happened it was a POC, but that doesn't matter. That is straight fucked up.
Yes, this. Except these days when I see this happening, I have just bowed out*. Attempts to point out another point of view could result in instant flaming and I just don't have the energy for that anymore.
*Except on the name threads. Those threads bug me when the ethnic names segment begin.
Ok, @kirkette, I actually got very little sleep last night because I was thinking about this. I feel like my thoughts were clearer at 2am but we will see what I can say clearly now!
First of all, I think I owe an apology for one of my last comments, with regards to not wanting to be 'yelled at', when it comes to race. My feeling remains the same, however, it isn't my place to suggest how you approach debates/discussions on race. As I thought about it last night, I realized my comment was similar to people saying that black people rioting when black boys are killed by police 'doesn't do them any good' or 'doesn't benefit their message'. I recognize how that type of commentary is not justified, therefore neither is mine, as it is of the same vein. As I thought further, my bigger issue was really with the tone that some of us weren't able to understand things because of our privilege (be it race, class, etc...), which is difficult to hear when you are participating in the conversations, WANTING to understand.
I thought through your questions, as well as read through your answers to Hermione and they provided a lot of clarity to your perspective. I think that in some conversations it is difficult for me (I am speaking for me here, nobody else), to see why you (or in some cases other WOC), feel as though an assertion of an opinion is a micro aggression. I recognize that the reason it is difficult for me to see is because of my privilege, but in the moment I guess I 'just don't get it'. That was the case in your exchanges with Niq, as well as in the AMA thread a few weeks ago. I know that other examples have been provided, such as how white people here have reacted when POC discuss discipline belief structures and those have made sense to me after I have taken some time to think about them. In the exchanges with Niq I do think it was your tone, and your use of humour as you explained, that really made it difficult for me to understand what was happening. When you explained it to Hermione it made much more sense.
I also know that it isn't your job, or the job of any POC on this board, to teach me, or anyone else, about race. I may have implied that was my belief in some of my posts. I don't, but at the same time, I feel as though there has been interest shown, by both WOC and white posters, to discuss race issues, particularly as they relate to parenting. I know you suggested that I read PCE, which I actually do and for a while I actually posted there. I still read and lurk when I have time (which is dwindling these days). The reason I thought the discussions could be had here was because I thought there had been interest in those discussion by posters who tend to post here more than elsewhere. That being said, several people have stated that this has been a failed experiment, and if that is the general sentiment, I get it. I will continue to post articles on my FB, and I will chime in here when it comes up, but I won't initiate the discussions if people aren't ready/interested.