Ok, @kirkette , I actually got very little sleep last night because I was thinking about this. I feel like my thoughts were clearer at 2am but we will see what I can say clearly now!
I thought through your questions, as well as read through your answers to Hermione and they provided a lot of clarity to your perspective. I think that in some conversations it is difficult for me (I am speaking for me here, nobody else), to see why you (or in some cases other WOC), feel as though an assertion of an opinion is a micro aggression. I recognize that the reason it is difficult for me to see is because of my privilege, but in the moment I guess I 'just don't get it'. That was the case in your exchanges with Niq, as well as in the AMA thread a few weeks ago. I know that other examples have been provided, such as how white people here have reacted when POC discuss discipline belief structures and those have made sense to me after I have taken some time to think about them. In the exchanges with Niq I do think it was your tone, and your use of humour as you explained, that really made it difficult for me to understand what was happening. When you explained it to Hermione it made much more sense.
1. Thanks for the apology. I know that you've been trying to take the time to understand the last few weeks.
2. To the bold, the tone is just how I operate IRL. I'm a physically small black, extremely feminine, girl. My tone, patience, and strategic thinking is how I wind up being the director, leader, or paid consultant of nearly everything I get involved with IRL. People expect me to be a wall flower, but I'm really kind of an asshole. I don't really care about being nice. Not my style. That's what's jarring if you don't know me.
3. Again, in my exchange with niq . It was like no one else was around, except maybe msniq . She's probably keenly aware of niq 's tunnel vision. As long as those two got what I was trying to say, no one else mattered. They could've scrolled past my WOT. Anyway, I had to use anything I could to get niq to see why he was being offensive as fuck.
To the bolded, that might be the case, but other people were reading, you weren't having a PM convo with him. I am not saying you should care, but you can see why other people here would react, even people who you consider 'friends' were questioning what was happening. I am not saying other people have to matter in your mind, but you have to acknowledge that they were 'here', in this public space, reading what you are writing. And while much of it might have made sense to Niq, given your relationship to him, it certainly wasn't making sense to a good number of posters. I get that it wasn't your intent to communicate to those people, but it still becomes part of your persona here.
3. Again, in my exchange with niq. It was like no one else was around, except maybe msniq. She's probably keenly aware of niq 's tunnel vision. As long as those two got what I was trying to say, no one else mattered. They could've scrolled past my WOT. Â
This was my read of things based on your science debate explanation (and prior to that, I'll admit that I didn't read the WOT very closely and had no idea what the conversation was about). But then there's this pressure to "speak out," like the call out because we dared to keep talking about something else while your conversation with niq was happening. I honestly don't know what to do about that/those instances when different conversations of differing intensities are coexisting in the same thread (or hell, even on the same board!). This is more directed to the board as a whole than to you. I feel like we all have a different style and a way of confronting prejudices and judgment and viewpoints that don't seem to allow for any variants, regardless of whether those differences are race-based or class-based or as simple as regional differences. I admit that my defense tactic is typically to claim the "well, this is my culture" card when we're talking about something like ear piercing or circumcision (ok, DH's culture in this last case) instead of coming out and saying "you're an ignorant person for telling me I didn't "have to" go along with my H's decision to circumcise our son and for not understanding the charged recent history of persecution that comes when you make a decision like this." I don't WANT to have to spell it out the way I did earlier in this thread when challenged on my silence. that doesn't mean I don't have anything to say. And (not directed at you, @kirkette!), I don't appreciate being told I "have" to say something. Maybe I'm thinking. Maybe I'm waiting. Maybe I said everything I was going to say and it doesn't happen to be in the format/words people think counts as saying something.
Love you, @kirkette . And I agree with most of what you said. And I don't think you're crazy because I've known you in real life for years.
But, damn, I need to school you on how to be succinct.
Your attempts to insert humor and narrative have truly obscured your intended missive.
Dude, I know. I'll work on the brevity. It's not my strong suit. I talk so damn much. My verbal diarrhea is coming out, in post ,where I'm really angry about people being hypocritical. If I said what I really wanted to say, as direct as I would in real life, people wouldn't be able to handle it. Some one would end up crying. That someone sure as hell isn't me.
Sadly, that 140-character limit is going away, but I don't use Twitter, so I guess that's a plus. :?
See, I know exactly what you're trying to say. I can even hear you saying it! With wild gesticulations and great fervor!
Sadly, few other people know what I know. LOL.
And LMAO at making people cry. You can still do that with just a few words! Hahahahahaha.
I say a failed experiment on this board. If only a few people are interested in discussing a topic maybe it is better had elsewhere. You can't force people to be receptive of something they don't want. This is why we have different board topics. I have no interest in crafts so I never go to the board. Maybe people want a board where they only talk about mom stuff. I don't know.
Sent from my SM-G920V using proboards
True, but it's a board filled with parents. Parents who pride themselves on being enlightened, intelligent, worldly, and very Liberal. So, if not this group, who is rearing the next generation of kids our kids will eventually encounter, then, where?
I had to at least try and bring it up.
I don't bring this stuff on other boards, unless someone is throwing it in my face to get insecure homegirl laughs, or to try and teach me a lesson. Da Fuq? I'm 32 years old. I'm not your 2 year old. Stop!
That shit's not funny. We're not pals. You don't know me like that. Push to hard, and you will feel the wrath of Wu Tang Kirkette on that ass. And guess what? I never lose, ever!
Push too hard, when you've been warned on multiple occurrences, and you're (collective) ass is going to wind up in tears, deactivating, and looking as foolish and close minded as fuck. Because, guess what, you are being foolish and close minded as fuck. Too bad your 40 year old blond homegirls didn't have the balls to tell you to cut out your shit, while you were sitting around reliving the 80s, while you watch Heathers, or some shit.
Don't start no shit, there won't be no shit. Close minded foolishness. I'm not here for it. Especially from someone who's mediocre as fuck, and proud of it.
So, since I'm working so damn hard in my every day life to do the best for my babies... I can no longer give two fucks about a handful of GIF-dropping white girls who DON'T WANT to see past their own noses. Sucks for them and their kids.
This makes me especially ragey when that same handful of white girls uses gifs and slang terms (often poorly), but give next to no fucks about the lives of the kids of color where those terms originated. "I'm privileged to not worry about the schools my kids attend. We moved to this neighborhood to support public schools. Screw charters, stay and fight for shitty schools, POC".
Then, that same group gets homegirl back pats for their epically poor use of Google, and Urban Dictionary.
That's right, girls. You stay "On Fleek", keep "Throwing Shade", and "Don't be Rachet", as you clutch your purse, when a minority teenager walks by, in your gated white flight community.
Seriously, what the fuck?
Who are you talking about here? I haven't seen any white person use those terms on MMM. Have I missed a post? If you are going to insult people please be specific and add tags. I don't live in a gated white flight community for instance although I post gifs on the regular. I also give plenty of fucks about the lives of children of color in my community and the world at large.
Parents who pride themselves on being enlightened, intelligent, worldly, and very Liberal.
This right here should be the tagline for this fucking board. I'm in tears. The capital L on "Liberal" is my fave part. LOL.
I don't know how you guys do it. (You know who you are.) Educating "enlightened" folks is fucking exhausting, and I don't care to do it. Kudos to you all for fighting the good fight.
(But I will come in and defend my girl who is being called crazy.)
I don't even go here but I was bored this weekend due to an out of town husband and read this whole thread. I'm not going to weigh in on the dynamics or personalities of this board because I don't really know them. But as to the whole micro aggressions and staying quiet: come on. Quit being butt hurt when called on something. That's all it really needs to be. I'm as white as white can be and grew up in a bubble of white Catholics. The point isn't you always saying the right thing, because you won't. Accept that you probably do say the wrong thing from time to time, maybe frequently. And when called on it, don't make it about your feelings and be defensive. Listen (or read) when people talk to you or call you on something, and learn from it. It's not hard. It's the digging in and being all hurt feelings that tends to cause issues.
Who are you talking about here? I haven't seen any white person use those terms on MMM. Have I missed a post? If you are going to insult people please be specific and add tags. I don't live in a gated white flight community for instance although I post gifs on the regular. I also give plenty of fucks about the lives of children of color in my community and the world at large.
Didn't I hand your microagressive ass a chair about a month ago? Someone blond, please come and get your cousin. She still doesn't see this shit, so it's not happening.
I'm not blond, thanks. Where have these terms been used because I agree with you that those terms being misappropriated would irk me too.
And yes, you did tell me to "take a seat, take all the seats" when I said I wanted to know more about how POC felt on the board. This is the first time I've been called a "microagressive ass" though.
Who are you talking about here? I haven't seen any white person use those terms on MMM. Have I missed a post? If you are going to insult people please be specific and add tags. I don't live in a gated white flight community for instance although I post gifs on the regular. I also give plenty of fucks about the lives of children of color in my community and the world at large.
Lol for fucking DAYS that YOU are asking @kirkette to be specific about who she is calling out when you freaked the F out and had a whole thread you didn't even start bc of a call out. Seriously, thank you for the laugh.
I can't.
Are we reading the same thread? @kirkette is saying people on this board have been shamed for shopping at the Dollar store and then mentions not being liked because she doesn't eat hamburgers or watch Friends. I am really not following along at home so well. Who is she talking about specifically? I don't like Friends either. I do, however, love Heathers. I don't know why if I am going to be vilified it can't be about things I actually said instead of this cartoon persona of "spoiled white woman."
I will fully admit when this whole thing w niq started, I thought @kirkette was going off. But as I kept reading... And she CONSTANTLY had to explain herself, I started to get fucking pissed for her and would have gone "real crazy" if I were her. I've only met Kirkette once (but I'm stalking her next time I'm in LA visiting my sister) so I'm not always able to read her voice like some are. Combine that w the WOT, lol. But fucking A man, enough is enough w the bullshit happening here lately.
Well, if you visit @kirkette, you can invite me, too, and I can serve as interpreter.
I will fully admit when this whole thing w niq started, I thought @kirkette was going off. But as I kept reading... And she CONSTANTLY had to explain herself, I started to get fucking pissed for her and would have gone "real crazy" if I were her. I've only met Kirkette once (but I'm stalking her next time I'm in LA visiting my sister) so I'm not always able to read her voice like some are. Combine that w the WOT, lol. But fucking A man, enough is enough w the bullshit happening here lately.
Well, if you visit @kirkette , you can invite me, too, and I can serve as interpreter.
@stilljustash I think that what you said is important. I will admit that noticing I check the boxes in the mass call out is uncomfortable but I like the resolution you propose which is try harder (I think).
i just think all of this can become very draining to POC.
for example, i've seen multiple times when there has been a call on this board to have a race discussion. cool, i'm down for that. but it's frustrating how quickly that ends up being derailed by protecting all the sensitivities of those participating. i have a (white) friend IRL who is guilty of this as well, she's constantly personalizing every single thing said in race discussions and managing to make herself a victim of various complaints from POC. it's put a HUGE strain on our relationship, because i just straight up don't want to talk to her about anything having to do with race, which honestly is dominant part of my life.
i'm not here for the "oh nooooes, you couldn't possibly be talking about MEEE!! i WANT to be in this conversation, so obviously that means i can't be guilty of ANY of the assumptions taking place! *gasp*"
i don't know about other POC that post here, but i know that 9/10 if i'm posting about a situation, i am NOT calling out a specific poster. i'm calling out a trait i have noticed in many white people, and unless you're a rabid offender, i have no idea if you're guilty. and i don't really care. that's on you to figure out for yourself, you know? stop making me (us) police you and hold your hand while we gently "let you down" with knowledge of your own privilege/micro-aggressions.
you want to take place in a real race discussion with POC? buck the fuck up, keep your personal feelings of potential guilt to yourself, and come have a discussion like adults. this is coming from a person who is HIGHLY sensitive herself, so i'm not saying don't have feelings. but, please, stop making us responsible for them, okay? eventually, people will blow up and go off. surely you can see how the pressure builds.
now i've joined the WOT crowd lol. oh well.
Thank you for this. I can see how that would be frustrating. I AM sensitive to being called out (like we won't even go there) but mostly I just want an opportunity to defend myself if someone is assuming untrue things about me. I am certain I am guilty of microagressions and it is something I have been learning about and trying to do better. It's just hard when I feel personally attacked.
I always get a tinge of fear when I see @natariru tag me. So okay, point taken! Well sort of taken. I am just quoting to see that I am digesting what you and @stilljustash are saying but I appreciate your comments.
Thank you for this. I can see how that would be frustrating. I AM sensitive to being called out (like we won't even go there) but mostly I just want an opportunity to defend myself if someone is assuming untrue things about me. I am certain I am guilty of microagressions and it is something I have been learning about and trying to do better. It's just hard when I feel personally attacked.
and i can understand that. but take the most recent situation in this post, in which you were not tagged or directly named, so i'm going to assume it was not a direct personal attack. your feelings are basically ending the conversation because you can't see past your own hurt to actually here the GENERAL discussion/complaints being issued. do you get what i'm saying? you're effectively sticking yourself in a box and not allowing yourself to productively participate or learn from the conversation, because now you're hurt and that hurt is blinding you. it's hard, i'm a sensitive soul too, but you really just have to learn to stop finding yourself SO important that you believe all call outs are referring to you (i say that with absolutely no snark...but honestly, isn't that where so much personal sensitivity generates? self-importance?)
anyway, i appreciate you sticking around in this thread and not shutting down. that is important!
It reminds me, in a way, of when people on here get offended by science. When we're tip-toeing around real-world problems because we're afraid of hurting feelings, the conversation isn't going to be as effective as it could be. Mindfulness in these conversations goes a long way. Step back and consider issues from outside your own world view, without defaulting to defensiveness. It's difficult, yes, but is better for all.
And, @kirkette , I cannot join you in railing against, @booby .
On this point, declare neutrality. Sorry.
I know. You got to do you. That's fine.
For the record, I'd never make anyone take sides. I'm not 7. I just can't get down with her style. It's gross as hell, and seems so insecure to try and come at people who seem to be in a weaker position, like a bully, then be all, "no really, I care now". We don't know each other. I don't care to get to know her. I usually ignore her ass.
I don't fuck with miserable insecure people. They're exhausting.
I've read probably 90% of this thread, for which I don't know if I should be ashamed or receive a medal.
This is the way it could have gone down:
People: Chicken, blah blah. Educators: Technology is making things worse. Niq: Pfftt. The kids are alright, look at all this data. Kirkette (or anyone): Your pfftt is dismissive of the lived experience of teachers, especially when many of the educators you're dismissing are women and/or POC. Data can be misleading because it's often collected with a political agenda, and I'm inherently distrustful of education data because of a long established problem of research instruments that are biased against children of color. People: Chicken! Niq: Oh, that's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm sorry, my bad. Other posters who knew these things: Yay Kirkette, you're awesome! Other posters who learned something: What an interesting point.
I'm just poking my dirty blonde head in to say, I'm reading. I'm digesting. I'm uncomfortable. I don't completely understand, but I'm trying.
Ditto. And I do not consider race discussions a failed experiment on this board and I hope they continue. I have thought so much more about these issues as a result and I know there have to be a lot of people who are also reading but not yet participating (I am one of them) that feel the same way.
It makes it seem like the only topics that are acceptable are the ones the white moms want to talk about without that pesky racial stuff and that makes me feel as though I am not wanted here.
I'm sure you don't know me because I rarely post but I wanted to say I do want you here. I want the race related discussions, too, even when they're uncomfortable. I've learned a lot even though I've barely ventured over to CEP.
I admit that I did not comprehend much of the niq and @kirkette discussion and found it at odds with my memory of @kirkette posts going back many years. I "liked" one of token's posts then got taken down a peg by mishy's reminder on microaggressions and "angry black women" a few posts later.
Anyway, I just want to say that I do appreciate the patience and effort of many P(osters)OC. I know it's not your responsibility to educate me. I have a long way to go, but I for one am glad that you are here and I appreciate your (collective) perspectives even/especially when they are counter to the groupthink we're prone to. I am willing to listen as long as you're willing to talk.
I'm not reading any WOTs cuz I'm sick as fuck and my head is killing me.
I haven't read much of the thread but calling having race discussions a failed experiment rubs me the wrong way.
And I'm also disappointed that people are saying that they feel they get yelled at when for the most part the WOC have tried to be patient and have open discussions.
We let people rant and rave about family dynamics and grandma giving precious juice all the time. But someone gets mad about something racially related and nope too uncomfortable must shut it down.
It makes it seem like the only topics that are acceptable are the ones the white moms want to talk about without that pesky racial stuff and that makes me feel as though I am not wanted here.
I hope you're feeling better!
I'm actually really glad to hear the bolded from one of our posters of color.
As for the underlined, it's unfortunate that this has been expressed here as a general problem with the WOC when it seems like people are mainly talking about how kirkette has responded in this thread, and of course kirkette doesn't represent all POC any more than anyone else does. Nor does this one thread embody all that kirkette has shared on this board.
I can only speak for myself, but I doubt I am the only one - I feel strongly that you are wanted here, and I hope that neither the posters of color nor the white posters will let this thread silence the greater conversation.
Thank you for this. I can see how that would be frustrating. I AM sensitive to being called out (like we won't even go there) but mostly I just want an opportunity to defend myself if someone is assuming untrue things about me. I am certain I am guilty of microagressions and it is something I have been learning about and trying to do better. It's just hard when I feel personally attacked.
disclaimer: i typed this response before reading the rest of the thread.
@notquiteblushing dude. ok. i don't want a response, i'd like for you to just hear this. i called you out in a previous thread. i didn't do that to be mean. i did that because i thought you could do better and i wanted to encourage you in that direction. but it didn't work. there is such hypocrisy in this quoted post alone. i believe that is not your intention, and i believe that you want to do better....but to do so, you have to drop your guard. you have to drop the defensiveness. if someone is assuming untrue things about you, so what? if you don't fit that, people will eventually see it. but the constant defensiveness in a discussion about race where POC have to deal with people assuming untrue things about them all the damn time, including @kirkette being called crazy, manic, etc. to the point where they discount the message underneath with loads of people bandwagoning and liking those comments....c'mon man. POC are personally attacked all the time. it's hard to feel attacked, i know. think about how if you feel that way, how do they feel? except amplified a billion percent...but they don't get that luxury to turn off conversations about race. @kirkette 's comments are bigger than you, bigger than this thread, bigger than MM Moms. you have to realize this isn't about you alone. it feels personal because it's unfamiliar and uncomfortable and it feels out of your control. but if you're able to set aside your feelings, the feeling of being personally attacked will likely go away, ok?
I know you did and as I said at the time I was out of the country and unable to read the 20+ of the thread that had occurred after I left my office on Christmas eve. I got the gist that you were chastising me for not coming back into the thread and I really didn't know what to say about that as it was the holidays and I was with my family. I want to do better and be less defensive, trust me I do, so I am listening but always immediately available.
Since we're airing stuff... I hadn't seen this thread since Thursday and then read it last night.
1. Those of you who think "it's weird" around here and want to leave because we're talking about something besides PT'ing and names need to woman up. I find it so refreshing to talk about real issues.
2. Along those lines, I'm not down with calling this a "failed experiment" because it's oh so sad for some white women to feel uncomfortable that they may be called out on saying something offensive. And swizz , I'm going to admit right here, that I just assume you don't really like discussing much of substance on this board after you called me out on talking about feminism too much. Basically, I can't take your complaint here seriously, since it seems to be a pattern that you just want light fluff.
3. I agree with @kirkette and pennypenny and others that there is most definitely a "way" one is supposed to be here, and if you're not, you have to deal with ridicule, whether it is directed at you specifically (as in breastfeeding threads) or just generally (as in discipline, name, piercing type threads). It gets old as fuck.
In short, viva la revolucion!
I agree, esp on talking about it here. It helps to get white women and our privilege checked, often. It will be especially helpful for my son (a biracial little guy who is my world) to not encounter, to be nice, foolishness because it is hard, makes you sad, whatever. Get over yourselves and thinking how it is here is even real life. It would be nice if all thought and were open-minded as most are here, but it is not, so I am ok with discussions in as many places as I can see/read. But, wot need to shrink. Please
Since we're airing stuff... I hadn't seen this thread since Thursday and then read it last night.
1. Those of you who think "it's weird" around here and want to leave because we're talking about something besides PT'ing and names need to woman up. I find it so refreshing to talk about real issues.
2. Along those lines, I'm not down with calling this a "failed experiment" because it's oh so sad for some white women to feel uncomfortable that they may be called out on saying something offensive. And swizz , I'm going to admit right here, that I just assume you don't really like discussing much of substance on this board after you called me out on talking about feminism too much. Basically, I can't take your complaint here seriously, since it seems to be a pattern that you just want light fluff.
3. I agree with @kirkette and pennypenny and others that there is most definitely a "way" one is supposed to be here, and if you're not, you have to deal with ridicule, whether it is directed at you specifically (as in breastfeeding threads) or just generally (as in discipline, name, piercing type threads). It gets old as fuck.
In short, viva la revolucion!
I agree, esp on talking about it here. It helps to get white women and our privilege checked, often. It will be especially helpful for my son (a biracial little guy who is my world) to not encounter, to be nice, foolishness because it is hard, makes you sad, whatever. Get over yourselves and thinking how it is here is even real life. It would be nice if all thought and were open-minded as most are here, but it is not, so I am ok with discussions in as many places as I can see/read. But, wot need to shrink. Please
Isn't part of the problem that the "open mindedness" only extends to certain people. I think (not you) people have trouble seeing what people of a different SES are saying, let alone a different race. A board full of highly educated people some of whom think they can't be wrong, because they are educated. I'm not talking about just this thread. I see a lot of right fighting going on. People don't like to be wrong.