So, are we talking about that MMM thread..

[skwcm80]

@smorriso I'm only phone so I can't quote well, but I hate that @kirkette had to talk about a painful experience in order gain credibility about why she felt attacked. And even after that there are still people defending pilotgrigio because she's nice to them. 

[underwaterrhymes]

I haven't been here today because I have been catching up with work.

And I still have a lot of reading to do.

But I want the people who are discrediting the validity of @kirkette's perception to think about this.

Imagine that every single day and in multiple ways people "other" you. People clutch their purse when you walk by. Or maybe they tell you're pretty for someone with your skin color. Or they touch your kid's hair. Or they ask you where you're from. Or every time you turn on the news someone who looks like your kid ten years from now has been shot. Or you read the comments in any fucking news article about someone with your skin tone and see people saying horrible things.

It would wear on you. And you would see the myriad ways in which people intentionally or unintentionally contribute to racism far more easily than those who have not experienced what you have.

And then people who are your friends - even just internet friends - say things like, "no, no you're wrong. That's not the way it is. You're misunderstanding the way people mean those things!"

That would be every bit as much a discredit to your intelligence and life experiences as many posts in this thread have been to the women of color here.

I think @booby is extremely astute which also makes her good at knowing how to get under people's skin. And I think @kirkette has been very stream of consciousness posting lately. Both of these things muddy the water unnecessarily.

This thread could have gone so differently and I'm sad it didn't.

[silva]

I'm sorry, kirkette. I'm listening and hear what you are saying.

[scottyderp]

Jan 26, 2016 19:31:24 GMT -5 mishy said:

Jan 26, 2016 19:26:01 GMT -5 scottyderp said:

This happened with me.  I thought Giuliana Rancic might not be racist for making a weed/patchouli oil comment about Zendaya Coleman's dredlocks.  I thought she was commenting on her dreds as thought she looked like a hippie.  I genuinely thought they were innocent remarks and people were mad, I argued, as a dumb white woman from a hick town, and I felt horrible, angry, defensive, because I mean well, and was genuinely confused, so I GBCN'ed.  I didn't apologize when I returned, but I made the choice to listen, instead of assume that I know.  I didn't stay and accept criticisms, the talk was too charged with emotion and people were f*cking pissed.  I understand why, now, I didn't then.  My point, I think it's sort of natural for people to run away or not want to apologize, especially if they don't understand.

I can understand people running away.

What I can't understand is continuing to say shitty things about POC and intentionally trying to provoke them.

Also, booby is giuliana rancic in your anecdote, and you were papie. So a bit different, although maybe you would have reacted the same way, idk.

It might be the fact that I'm in layers of clothing sweating my ovaries off, but how am I papie?  What does that mean?  Sorry.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2016 18:57:49 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Jan 26, 2016 18:37:05 GMT -5 @bettyhomewrecker said:

Booby finding Kirkette uppity should have been like an instant friendship bracelet.

I'm irritated that it keeps coming up that Booby isn't intentionally racist. That's not the fucking point. Booby is racist in the way that frankly, all of us can be and have been. It's so easy to be flippant based on our own perceptions/histories/dumb bunnyness.

I actually think it's exactly the point.

Racism and racist behavior isn't always (or even often here) in your face eating pie at the KKK pie store. It's the small things that build. It's the microaggressions. It's the flippancy. It's the word choice. It's the not believing it until you've been beat over year head for 20 pages of evidence and still wandering around claiming you don't see it.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but we're agreeing. I hate when these things dig down into "well, it wasn't blatantly racist enough!" because the subtleties and flippancy are equally bad and what makes this truck on forever.

[skwcm80]

Jan 26, 2016 19:34:32 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Jan 26, 2016 19:27:57 GMT -5 skwcm80 said:

@smorriso I'm only phone so I can't quote well, but I hate that @kirkette had to talk about a painful experience in order gain credibility about why she felt attacked. And even after that there are still people defending pilotgrigio because she's nice to them. 

And didn't this same thing happen in the MMM thread that spawned this thread? I may be misremembering, but if people were reading that thread all of this would have gone without saying.

I'm not sure if she mentioned the experience with her daughter there, but I may misremembering too. However she said enough there that I'm baffled that it took 18 pages for some people to get it. Maybe I shouldn't be.

[cville]

Jan 26, 2016 18:57:49 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Jan 26, 2016 18:37:05 GMT -5 @bettyhomewrecker said:

Booby finding Kirkette uppity should have been like an instant friendship bracelet.

I'm irritated that it keeps coming up that Booby isn't intentionally racist. That's not the fucking point. Booby is racist in the way that frankly, all of us can be and have been. It's so easy to be flippant based on our own perceptions/histories/dumb bunnyness.

I actually think it's exactly the point.

Racism and racist behavior isn't always (or even often here) in your face eating pie at the KKK pie store. It's the small things that build. It's the microaggressions. It's the flippancy. It's the word choice. It's the not believing it until you've been beat over year head for 20 pages of evidence and still wandering around claiming you don't see it.

I've been thinking about this thread all day at work, a busy enough day that I'm still working. Ha.

I keep thinking about how hard it was and is to accept that thanks to my privileges, upbringing, society, etc., I have racist subconscious thoughts. I, along with many (Most?) other people am "a little bit racist," as the song goes. I want to think I'm better than that, but I know I've committed microaggressions if not outright ones. I know I've stayed silent when I should've spoken up.

I know that as exhausting as it is to examine and rexamine my motives and actions and words and to root out my bad and wrong impulses it's not a fraction as exhausting as it is to experience thoughtless words and actions (leaving aside all the other feelings). I hope to raise my own kids to be better than I am. I don't have anything to add to this discussion further right now, but I wanted to say something. Because I talk too damn much.

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 17:46:50 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jan 26, 2016 17:45:24 GMT -5 peachy said:

What would I have done? Hit the block button, ignore or take it up with a mod if I thought their behavior was harassment.

And for all the other black posters? Should have just hit the block button too?

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

[pixy0stix]

Ignoring one person doesn't work when others are following the lead.

[starlily]

Jan 26, 2016 16:40:58 GMT -5 papie said:

I am finally almost caught up. Too late to say much. I'm sorry @kirkette has been going through so much. I never quite figured out what @booby said that was so insensitive. But for having met her w few times IRL and having known her here for so long, she is a good person with a dramatic careless posting style at times, which has made her an awesome contributor to this board over the last million years but I understand that she can accidentally hurt people in the way but I don't think she deserved the shit show that happened in here.

Edited.

You honestly believe that Booby's posts directed at Kirkette the past couple of weeks were really just "careless"? It was clear, rather quickly, that her comments were very deliberate and designed to discredit Kirkette.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2016 19:52:08 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 17:46:50 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

And for all the other black posters? Should have just hit the block button too?

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

Maybe you should read up on why Black Lives Matter exists.

[pinkeggs]

Jan 26, 2016 19:30:23 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I haven't been here today because I have been catching up with work.

And I still have a lot of reading to do.

But I want the people who are discrediting the validity of @kirkette 's perception to think about this.

Imagine that every single day and in multiple ways people "other" you. People clutch their purse when you walk by. Or maybe they tell you're pretty for someone with your skin color. Or they touch your kid's hair. Or they ask you where you're from. Or every time you turn on the news someone who looks like your kid ten years from now has been shot. Or you read the comments in any fucking news article about someone with your skin tone and see people saying horrible things.

It would wear on you. And you would see the myriad ways in which people intentionally or unintentionally contribute to racism far more easily than those who have not experienced what you have.

And then people who are your friends - even just internet friends - say things like, "no, no you're wrong. That's not the way it is. You're misunderstanding the way people mean those things!"

That would be every bit as much a discredit to your intelligence and life experiences as many posts in this thread have been to the women of color here.

I think @booby is extremely astute which also makes her good at knowing how to get under people's skin. And I think @kirkette has been very stream of consciousness posting lately. Both of these things muddy the water unnecessarily.

This thread could have gone so differently and I'm sad it didn't.

Excellent.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 19:52:08 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 17:46:50 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

And for all the other black posters? Should have just hit the block button too?

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

Thas it Kirkette; Don't pay massa no mind. You know he don mean it. Jes be quiet and do your job and let Gawd handle it. 

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 20:00:41 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Jan 26, 2016 19:52:08 GMT -5 FastHands said:

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

Thas it Kirkette; Don't pay massa no mind. You know he don mean it. Jes be quiet and do your job and let Gawd handle it. 

That was so beyond unnecessary. I'm actually trying to understand the one piece of her position that I hadn't yet been able to.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 20:05:53 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:00:41 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Thas it Kirkette; Don't pay massa no mind. You know he don mean it. Jes be quiet and do your job and let Gawd handle it. 

That was so beyond unnecessary. I'm actually trying to understand the one piece of her position that I hadn't yet been able to.

It was necessary to point out that this is the attitude you are suggesting she take. 

[FastHands]

@bettyhomewrecker and jenny1980, thank you for the BLM analogy. It does make more sense in that context.

[cville]

Jan 26, 2016 19:52:08 GMT -5 FastHands said:

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

Ask yourself why is "helping the situation" kirkette's job? Why is it your view of what is and is not helpful the one that should be controlling?

[underwaterrhymes]

I also want to point something else out:

People get outraged about a lot of stuff here.

We get pissed if someone says, "OMG! Are you pregnant?" to someone who isn't. We recognize that this is not intentionally cruel, but it sure can diminish how someone feels about themselves. We are empathetic and angry even if this has never happened to us.

We get mad when someone's husband says a douchenozzle thing even if he is not always a douchenozzle. And we are empathetic and angry even if our husbands are generally awesome.

People who don't have kids empathize with people who do. People who have money empathize with people who are struggling. People who don't have depression empathize with people who do.

Why is it, then, so hard for some people to accept this reality? That words that don't have hurtful meaning for you do for others?

This is another way racism inserts itself into everything: the inability of people to empathize with something they don't understand and haven't personally experienced when it comes to people of color.

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 20:08:27 GMT -5 cville said:

Jan 26, 2016 19:52:08 GMT -5 FastHands said:

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

Ask yourself why is "helping the situation" kirkette's job? Why is it your view of what is and is not helpful the one that should be controlling?

I don't think it is her job to be helpful, but it seemed like she presented it to peachy as a deliberate effort to do so. I guess I expected her to say more of "I was fucking pissed and I acted on it." That would have been more natural of a progression to me. It sounded like she presented it as a tactical move, but I didn't understand the motive. She owes me no explanation, but like I said, she seemed to be ooen to discussing them nonetheless.

I think the BLM analogy was a really good one, though.

[pixy0stix]

Look. I recently shoved my foot so goddamn far into my mouth that I could taste what color toenail polish I was wearing. I'm forever thankful that the ladies smacked some shit into me. I was and am still so embarrassed. I am thankful for the opportunity to learn, and I really hope that I continue to learn. Sometimes you just need to shut the fuck up and actually listen to what is being said. Yes, it's hard, but it needs to be done.

Other times, you need to stand up when you see something that needs to be talked about.

#climatechange (heh)

[pixy0stix]

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

Then that's your failing and not anyone else's. Maybe you should work on that.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

This is your contribution to this post?

[skwcm80]

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

How best should posts be worded so they are palatable to you?

/sarcasm

[Deleted]

Omg. I cannot even.

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 20:23:29 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:05:53 GMT -5 FastHands said:

That was so beyond unnecessary. I'm actually trying to understand the one piece of her position that I hadn't yet been able to.

What you're trying to understand is how Kirkette "needs" to act in the situation. Yet you're not offering any resolution or criticism to booby. Either for her to own up to her fuckery and racism, or for her to just stop acting out on it in a community of women who have established relationships. If I hear, booby is booby one more time, or that we know she's not shit. But it's the people who are getting attacked who are responsible for fixing this shit. Understand that you're attempts here are coming at the wrong damn side of the equation.

ETA: In other words, redirect all this energy to someone who needs it. (In case that's still not clear, it's booby who needs advice, not @kirkette)

I get that it may come off that way, but to use your equation analogy, I understand the Booby side -- she is at best unintentionally racist in the way that has been ingrained for generations by a system that set itself up by setting a whole swath of people as less-than. I don't need help understanding that even if the position were a defensible one, which it's obviously not. I don't think that kirkette has to "fix" anything or explain herself, but in this thread she discussed wanting to have race/microaggression conversations and made an effort to help people understand where she was coming from along the way. I took her up on her willingness to have a discussion.

[underwaterrhymes]

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

This isn't true.

I've seen you reply to lengthy posts and write some of your own on topics that apparently interest you.

What about this particular issue isn't worthy of your time?

[ginap]

underwaterrhymes I want to be able to like your post more than one time.  So well said. 

[teflepi]

Jan 26, 2016 20:35:40 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

This isn't true.

I've seen you reply to lengthy posts and write some of your own on topics that apparently interest you.

What about this particular issue isn't worthy of your time?

She's white so she can't be bothered.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2016 20:29:09 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Jesus take the wheel.

I'm laughing so I don't cry.

Fix it Jesus!

[LizLemler]

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

I'd suggest  you evaluate whether analogizing Kirkett's behavior to a rambling child is wise.