So, are we talking about that MMM thread..

[sweetday]

Jan 26, 2016 19:52:08 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 17:46:50 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

And for all the other black posters? Should have just hit the block button too?

I'm trying to follow you on this; help me out. You've said that you really want to call out microaggressions. You're being regularly hit with them from Booby, and you've fucking had it and get angrier and angrier as she refuses to examine her words/actions and as she is being supported by thise close to her and/or who don't/won't see your perspective. You know she won't get it or own it, but you want to stop being targetted. I 100% understand being mad as hell and making threats in the heat of the moment. But I don't understand doubling-down on them after the fact. If your issue is that she's personally attacking you and it's making you uncomfortable, then, yes, ignoring or blocking her would be most beneficial. If your issue is that she needs to be called on her bullshit, I don't see how saying that you are powerful and can cause her ruin is helping anything. I mean, it got her to stop talking, I suppose, but any biases she had, she surely still has and is not likely examining them.

Idk why I keep getting stuck on this, because it's at best secondary to the real issues if not tertiary or quaternary, but this is the one piece of this that I can't wrap my head around.

Because turning the cheek is fucking exhausting and not necessary.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 20:34:23 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:23:29 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

What you're trying to understand is how Kirkette "needs" to act in the situation. Yet you're not offering any resolution or criticism to booby. Either for her to own up to her fuckery and racism, or for her to just stop acting out on it in a community of women who have established relationships. If I hear, booby is booby one more time, or that we know she's not shit. But it's the people who are getting attacked who are responsible for fixing this shit. Understand that you're attempts here are coming at the wrong damn side of the equation.

ETA: In other words, redirect all this energy to someone who needs it. (In case that's still not clear, it's booby who needs advice, not @kirkette )

I get that it may come off that way, but to use your equation analogy, I understand the Booby side -- she is at best unintentionally racist in the way that has been ingrained for generations by a system that set itself up by setting a whole swath of people as less-than. I don't need help understanding that even if the position were a defensible one, which it's obviously not. I don't think that kirkette has to "fix" anything or explain herself, but in this thread she discussed wanting to have race/microaggression conversations and made an effort to help people understand where she was coming from along the way. I took her up on her willingness to have a discussion.

Do you see that even in here, you are providing a defense for Booby, (society!) and putting the onus on Kirkette to be other? She was pissed off and done and wanted her to back off.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 20:38:44 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

I am sorry for words I've said.

I didn't mean to be hurtful.

You came into a post about racial microaggressions and the overwhelming impact that they could have and basically said, I can't be bothered, which is just a plain aggression. 

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 20:10:01 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I also want to point something else out:

People get outraged about a lot of stuff here.

We get pissed if someone says, "OMG! Are you pregnant?" to someone who isn't. We recognize that this is not intentionally cruel, but it sure can diminish how someone feels about themselves. We are empathetic and angry even if this has never happened to us.

We get mad when someone's husband says a douchenozzle thing even if he is not always a douchenozzle. And we are empathetic and angry even if our husbands are generally awesome.

People who don't have kids empathize with people who do. People who have money empathize with people who are struggling. People who don't have depression empathize with people who do.

Why is it, then, so hard for some people to accept this reality? That words that don't have hurtful meaning for you do for others?

This is another way racism inserts itself into everything: the inability of people to empathize with something they don't understand and haven't personally experienced when it comes to people of color.

I think part of it is the discomfort. It's easy to empathize with people with kids on kid issues, because there's little chance you are in any way to blame or unconsciously allowing the atrocities of like.. lice. No one subconsciously is on lice's side.

But with race, it makes people uncomfortable to examine their position and words with brutal honesty, because you may/will find your own guilt there, in varying degrees and at varying depths below the surface. The test of character comes when a person decides whether they'd rather live with that guilt, deny it and the existence of inherent racism, or cut right for it, examine it and expose it, eeeven if it might mean you're a little bloody and vulnerable afterward.

[teflepi]

Jan 26, 2016 20:04:02 GMT -5 @natariru said:

If you "still don't get it", just shut the fuck up and read some. Really.

Thank you.  I feel a Jesus take the wheel moment here.  Like, wtf is going on with normally intelligent people?

[papie]

I posted before because I felt the need to defend my friend on this giant pile on. I am not going to jump in the booby is horrible bandwagon.

That being said, I am reading and hearing what you guys are saying. I understand that as a white person, it is hard for me to grasp the level of small and big aggressions and demeaning comments that people of colour face in their daily life, and I can't even begin to imagine what it feels like, especially when it also affects your children.

I don't know what else to say in here. I'm reading. I'm sorry.

[foundmylazybum]

Jan 26, 2016 20:26:37 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

The problem with wall of text posts is I'm just not going to read them. I won't get anything from them.

I'll also just walk away from my daughter when she starts rambling like that to me. I just can't listen to that. You can have the best argument in the world and it'll be lost on me.

1. I cannot stand when people say things like this. You probably miss out on some good information.

2. It seems like Kirkette has been pretty clear that she is speaking up on topics she may have not regularly spoken on ever before that are intensely and personally meaningful to her. Why is there some expectation that she has to be succinct and perfect in her presentation of her thoughts here as she is still working them out on her own? (I don't mean to speak for her in any way, this is just what it seems like to me, sorry if I am wrong here Kirkette)--I just wonder where the empathy is here.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 14:16:30 GMT -5 elle said:

Two, I almost don't want to post this because I don't want to contribute to the debate, but I absolutely believe and have never doubted Kirkette's background. She was a lovely guest at my house, her manners were impeccable, and her posture was perfect.. I know that it sounds weird to defend background based on posture, but I am not saying she just has good posture, I mean that 9 months pregnant, at a party, she was standing as ramrod straight as a soldier, and when she sat, it was perched on the end of a couch like the queen of England. She wasn't showing off and couldn't have known anyone was even paying attention, but that was her default even when hugely pregnant. That's not something you can fake, and it is enough IMO to corroborate the other things she has posted here. And as for the house, well, I'll just say I remember being accused of lying because I lived in a dated townhouse when I was first married. When the Olds control the money, you live in the housing the Olds already own, or consider to be appropriate for some other reason.

Also - while we are at it, this shit right here? Look at her, sitting up so straight, just like a real human!

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 20:39:54 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:34:23 GMT -5 FastHands said:

I get that it may come off that way, but to use your equation analogy, I understand the Booby side -- she is at best unintentionally racist in the way that has been ingrained for generations by a system that set itself up by setting a whole swath of people as less-than. I don't need help understanding that even if the position were a defensible one, which it's obviously not. I don't think that kirkette has to "fix" anything or explain herself, but in this thread she discussed wanting to have race/microaggression conversations and made an effort to help people understand where she was coming from along the way. I took her up on her willingness to have a discussion.

Do you see that even in here, you are providing a defense for Booby, (society!) and putting the onus on Kirkette to be other? She was pissed off and done and wanted her to back off.

No, I sure as shit am not defending Booby. I have said all along that booby was 100% in the wrong. I'm saying that I understand inherent racism in the best of people with the purest of intentions. I do not think Booby deserves to be grouped in that same class.

[swank]

I've been wrapped up in work the past two days and I just read this whole thing. @kirkette I am always here as your friend and IRL too (even if I am late (or a no show) to the party.)

[05heel]

Guys, Booby is a dick. Come on. It's ok. I don't even think she'd disagree.

If I do some dumb shit, please just say that I'm an asshole who should know better. Don't make yourself look ridiculous defending my nonexistent virtue. It's weird.

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 20:58:16 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:53:07 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Also - while we are at it, this shit right here? Look at her, sitting up so straight, just like a real human!

no go go for elle . She's good and kind. She's validating my upbringing. If she didn't post what she did, I think many wouldn't be listening to my message. I needed elle 's help. She helped.

LOL. Alright - but I think there are better ways to validate than your posture. 

[teflepi]

Jan 26, 2016 20:53:09 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:39:54 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Do you see that even in here, you are providing a defense for Booby, (society!) and putting the onus on Kirkette to be other? She was pissed off and done and wanted her to back off.

No, I sure as shit am not defending Booby. I have said all along that booby was 100% in the wrong. I'm saying that I understand inherent racism in the best of people with the purest of intentions. I do not think Booby deserves to be grouped in that same class.

Stop. Please for all that is holy STOP.  Why does she not deserve it? It is an odd point to make. Because she isn't a card carrying member of the KKK or something?  Anyone can be racist. Fullstop

[pinkeggs]

Jan 26, 2016 20:58:16 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:53:07 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Also - while we are at it, this shit right here? Look at her, sitting up so straight, just like a real human!

no go go for elle . She's good and kind. She's validating my upbringing. If she didn't post what she did, I think many wouldn't be listening to my message. I needed elle 's help. She helped.

I disagree. I hear you loud and clear and I didn't need elle to validate you. You did that yourself.

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 20:59:23 GMT -5 teflepi said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:53:09 GMT -5 FastHands said:

No, I sure as shit am not defending Booby. I have said all along that booby was 100% in the wrong. I'm saying that I understand inherent racism in the best of people with the purest of intentions. I do not think Booby deserves to be grouped in that same class.

Stop. Please for all that is holy STOP.  Why does she not deserve it? It is an odd point to make. Because she isn't a card carrying member of the KKK or something?  Anyone can be racist. Fullstop

OMG, lol. I am saying that Booby does not deserve to be grouped with people with pure intentions. I think that she has shown racism that goes beyond just being tone-dead with good intentions. I'm saying I don't think she deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I don't need to be convinced that Booby was 100% wrong. Really.

[papie]

Jan 26, 2016 20:57:34 GMT -5 05heel said:

Guys, Booby is a dick. Come on. It's ok. I don't even think she'd disagree.

If I do some dumb shit, please just say that I'm an asshole who should know better. Don't make yourself look ridiculous defending my nonexistent virtue. It's weird.

Ok, she's a dick on here.  Often.  I agree.  

[Deleted]

You know what, I'm just going to say this & deal with whatever happens.

I am afraid of booby. Of how she goes after people just because they irritate her. Of how she can get other people riled up to go after someone. It's a big reason I rarely post in threads where people are fighting & taking sides. It's why I didn't defend my friend. I am ashamed of that.

This place is important to me some of you have helped me get through the hardest two years of my life. I was afraid to lose that. I am sorry.

[teflepi]

Jan 26, 2016 21:03:25 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:59:23 GMT -5 teflepi said:

Stop. Please for all that is holy STOP.  Why does she not deserve it? It is an odd point to make. Because she isn't a card carrying member of the KKK or something?  Anyone can be racist. Fullstop

OMG, lol. I am saying that Booby does not deserve to be grouped with people with pure intentions. I think that she has shown racism that goes beyond just being tone-dead with good intentions. I'm saying I don't think she deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I don't need to be convinced that Booby was 100% wrong. Really.

Thank the Lord. I was truly reading it as you trying to 'figure it out' again.

[teflepi]

Jan 26, 2016 21:04:55 GMT -5 @ameliapond said:

You know what, I'm just going to say this & deal with whatever happens.

I am afraid of booby. Of how she goes after people just because they irritate her. Of how she can get other people riled up to go after someone. It's a big reason I rarely post in threads where people are fighting & taking sides. It's why I didn't defend my friend. I am ashamed of that.

This place is important to me some of you have helped me get through the hardest two years of my life. I was afraid to lose that. I am sorry.

I find you so full of grace and kindness that fuck that with her.  She is a dick.  A racially insensitive, to be kind, one.  

[FastHands]

Jan 26, 2016 21:07:06 GMT -5 teflepi said:

Jan 26, 2016 21:03:25 GMT -5 FastHands said:

OMG, lol. I am saying that Booby does not deserve to be grouped with people with pure intentions. I think that she has shown racism that goes beyond just being tone-dead with good intentions. I'm saying I don't think she deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I don't need to be convinced that Booby was 100% wrong. Really.

Thank the Lord. I was truly reading it as you trying to 'figure it out' again.

Lol nooooooo. I have said from the very beginning that Booby was completely wrong. Her comments referenced here and elsewhere have been blatantly racist.

[snipsnsnails]

I've tried to never be one to shy away from posting on any topic here on ML. But you know, I think I've often looked to this board over the past decade as a sort of "escape"- a place to get away from "real life". Talk about some Bravo TV, get some Super Bowl recipes, add to my GoodReads list. You know the drill. But, as Laptop and I used to discuss, this isn't really that, not at all. It is a partial digital microcosm of the world we live in. Gonzo Sociology 101 at the very beginning, but it quickly became a place with remarkably genuine friendships throughout and still is. It was not solely an "escape." And should never be just that. There's too much at stake.

There has been a great amount of tumult the past year. Things haven't been "easy" here, nor should they be. They have been meaningful. I am hoping that out of the pain comes meaning and progress in this little corner of the internet I inhabit. But, man, am I sorry that if it comes, it comes through deeply felt pain. I can try to contribute kindness as much as I can. And the dignity of a response in here to explanations that were never owed to me.

I guess what I'm trying to do is look with eyes that really see and listen with ears that really hear.

[aussiecrush]

I owe this thread and the women in it more than a shocked gif. Because the shocking part wasn't the argument but my reaction to it. Still having to read and reread to understand. Having to check my privilege, my need to be defensive and just shut up and learn. Thank you and I'm sorry that learning comes at such a high cost to women I respect so much.

[sonrisa]

Jan 26, 2016 20:35:18 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:19:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Moms can be smart, they don't have to only talk about baby diapers and juice. 

Hey, kirkette, while we're owning our shit, would you mind taking a second look at this? Thanks :-)

[05heel]

Jan 26, 2016 21:04:31 GMT -5 papie said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:57:34 GMT -5 05heel said:

Guys, Booby is a dick. Come on. It's ok. I don't even think she'd disagree.

If I do some dumb shit, please just say that I'm an asshole who should know better. Don't make yourself look ridiculous defending my nonexistent virtue. It's weird.

Ok, she's a dick on here.  Often.  I agree.  

so why do people have to show their entire ass just to illustrate this very simple and commonly acknowledged fact? She's not my friend and I have little use for her. I've made that clear many times. Trying to convince me that she's great would be like me trying to convince you that she's not your friend. I would look like a stone fool and you would rightly wonder wtf is wrong with my brain.

[elleblue]

Jan 26, 2016 20:53:07 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Jan 26, 2016 14:16:30 GMT -5 elle said:

Two, I almost don't want to post this because I don't want to contribute to the debate, but I absolutely believe and have never doubted Kirkette's background. She was a lovely guest at my house, her manners were impeccable, and her posture was perfect.. I know that it sounds weird to defend background based on posture, but I am not saying she just has good posture, I mean that 9 months pregnant, at a party, she was standing as ramrod straight as a soldier, and when she sat, it was perched on the end of a couch like the queen of England. She wasn't showing off and couldn't have known anyone was even paying attention, but that was her default even when hugely pregnant. That's not something you can fake, and it is enough IMO to corroborate the other things she has posted here. And as for the house, well, I'll just say I remember being accused of lying because I lived in a dated townhouse when I was first married. When the Olds control the money, you live in the housing the Olds already own, or consider to be appropriate for some other reason.

Also - while we are at it, this shit right here? Look at her, sitting up so straight, just like a real human!

I could be wrong but I took this as a rebuttal to the incredulous responses to some of @kirkette 's tales from the etiquette side. That it is probably indeed true that she had to hold quarters under her arms and keep the from dropping as a posture exercise because even in pregnancy she has perfect posture. I mean, I never doubted it for a second because I've heard of such techniques but other posters did express disbelief. 

Eta: I should have refreshed the page, I see now we have moved on, lol. 

[dowagercountess]

Jan 26, 2016 21:28:29 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:53:07 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Also - while we are at it, this shit right here? Look at her, sitting up so straight, just like a real human!

I could be wrong but I took this as a rebuttal to the incredulous responses to some of @kirkette 's tales from the etiquette side. That it is probably indeed true that she had to hold quarters under her arms and keep the from dropping as a posture exercise because even in pregnancy she has perfect posture. I mean, I never doubted it for a second because I've heard of such techniques but other posters did express disbelief. 

Eta: I should have refreshed the page, I see now we have moved on, lol. 

Oh, I understood her intent. I have excellent posture. I am not wealthy, nor old-moneyed, nor finishing schooled. 

[LLL]

Jan 26, 2016 21:23:17 GMT -5 05heel said:

Jan 26, 2016 21:04:31 GMT -5 papie said:

Ok, she's a dick on here.  Often.  I agree.  

so why do people have to show their entire ass just to illustrate this very simple and commonly acknowledged fact? She's not my friend and I have little use for her. I've made that clear many times. Trying to convince me that she's great would be like me trying to convince you that she's not your friend. I would look like a stone fool and you would rightly wonder wtf is wrong with my brain.

I think this comes down to something that even booby herself has referenced a few times. Once you've met somebody or know them beyond their ML persona it changes the way you perceive them and their interactions online. I know that I've been guilty of it. This is more than just a place to hang out for 'shits and giggles' for a lot of folks on here.
That said it is absolutely frustrating to see day in and day out how dismissive this place can be until shit hits the fan and the tide turns. I'm glad it was a teachable moment for some, I hope it's genuine. 

[elleblue]

Jan 26, 2016 21:33:47 GMT -5 dowagercountess said:

Jan 26, 2016 21:28:29 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I could be wrong but I took this as a rebuttal to the incredulous responses to some of @kirkette 's tales from the etiquette side. That it is probably indeed true that she had to hold quarters under her arms and keep the from dropping as a posture exercise because even in pregnancy she has perfect posture. I mean, I never doubted it for a second because I've heard of such techniques but other posters did express disbelief. 

Eta: I should have refreshed the page, I see now we have moved on, lol. 

Oh, I understood her intent. I have excellent posture. I am not wealthy, nor old-moneyed, nor finishing schooled. 

Fair point. Good posture is not socio-economic status specific. 

[Jermys]

Jan 26, 2016 17:45:24 GMT -5 peachy said:

Jan 26, 2016 17:31:22 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

So, again no snark intended, what would you have done if you were in my shoes after trying to be patient, trying to ignore it, asking the person to stop, moving to a different topic on different days, and the aggressor just continues to follow and gas light you , call you crazy and trashy, laugh, and throw it in your face, again and again, even as people pointed out the racism and microagression to her. What would you have done? How would you have gotten those actions to stop?

What would I have done? Hit the block button, ignore or take it up with a mod if I thought their behavior was harassment.

Noooooooooo. Just no. So people are allowed to keep on being racist bullies with no smackdown, and black people are supposed to ignore them? Oh no no no no no. Nope. 

[konapoppy]

Jan 26, 2016 21:35:57 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Jan 26, 2016 21:04:55 GMT -5 @ameliapond said:

You know what, I'm just going to say this & deal with whatever happens.

I am afraid of booby. Of how she goes after people just because they irritate her. Of how she can get other people riled up to go after someone. It's a big reason I rarely post in threads where people are fighting & taking sides. It's why I didn't defend my friend. I am ashamed of that.

This place is important to me some of you have helped me get through the hardest two years of my life. I was afraid to lose that. I am sorry.

I know, love. I know most people are/ were afraid of Booby's wrath. She excelled at being hate inducing and mean here. You know me, I'm not afraid of anyone. Hence me willing to put everything on the line, and go toe to toe to stand up for what's right. It was not until she mentioned bullying bloggers and getting banned for it, her creepy ass online sluthing tactics, and her sick obsession with GOMI. Truth be told, I read GOMI once, and saw them talkin about one of my BFF's and bridesmaids , and some of my mutual friends (baby shower, wedding shower circuits) . That's when I thought, oh the fuck no, this racist may be hateful enough to try and get to me and my babies. So, I looped Mr. Kirkette and my family in at that point. They were equally as creeped out by her blatant racism and stalker style behavior. But they understood that I couldn't leave the community, especially when people were finally getting to a point where they want to talk about race, even if they didn't "want to talk about race with me" personally. I was able to pass the torch on to others who now felt more comfortable to share. It was worth the wait, but boy was I getting exhausted trying to defend myself, and point out the red flags I had clearly been seeing for a long time. I know I can't end racism, but my hope was that I could teach people how to look for racist cues, so they could come help me, or someone who looks like me, when this stuff happens in plain sight in their daily life.
I feel like myself again. Last night, I really thought Booby has you all convinced. Hence my one last attempt for help via a very public warning. Thank god, some people stepped up, and continued to step up as I started to panic. I thought it was a lost cause. I thought all my pain, that comes with sharing all my race and class business publically, was all for nothing.

I am glad you said something and continue to say something. I am also glad you are feeling better! Your posts have helped enlighten me as well as others.

I know we have moved on from this a bit, but your posts about protecting your family seem no different to me than what white old money families (especially the men) do all the time. I can see how you would feel the need to do it in reaction to what you perceive as a threat to you.

On a side note, I read through the first half of The Sisters are Alright thanks to your recommendation and can't wait finish it this week. A good friend has a biracial daughter and I plan to pass it along to her so she can get some reaffirming messages et an early age.