I need to do some thread searching, but I think you're the one who made lots of "sacrifices" to move somewhere with a LCOL, right? Because it doesn't matter that sometimes one has to pay more to live in a certain place because it's more diverse and you feel more accepted there or because it's not that easy to just pick up and move for a very large percentage of the population.
But, okay, put ssmjlm in her place! Go, you!
(And if I have mixed you up with another poster, well, so be it.)
It was me. And I've been thinking about it all week and debating sending you a PM in apology. I started typing one last night but couldn't decide if I was doing it to assuage my feelings or for other reasons.
You were right and I was way, way wrong. I failed to recognize the privilege and entitlement the in my attitude. You took the time to tell me how fucking stupid I was being and it took me an embarrassingly long time to recognize it.
None of that is your responsibility. I own being a dick and would like to offer a sincere apology.
Post by rugbywife on Sept 11, 2016 13:25:21 GMT -5
I think part of what is 'scary' for white women on this board right now, is the fear that something they said, even years ago, that they can't remember, has been remembered that entire time by someone else. (Edit: and the fear is that it will be brought up now). But that's kind of the point - we have the privilege to think so little about a comment, to forget it as quickly as we wrote it, but to someone else it is indelible, it can never be forgotten and never will be. That should be much scarier. (Edit: because that speaks to the impact of our 'I didn't mean it like that' comments).
They really need to start covering how to apologize properly in schools or something. Why are so many people under the impression that an apology is made better by a string of excuses and "I didn't mean it that ways?"
It is not like these rules are unique to race discussions. They should be the same ones you apply in your professional life, your interpersonal relationships, and any other interactions you have. Are the people who cannot seem to apologize without being defensive and offering excuses saying "I am sorry I missed that deadline, but my email was down and my kid got sick and..." to their bosses at work?
I need to do some thread searching, but I think you're the one who made lots of "sacrifices" to move somewhere with a LCOL, right? Because it doesn't matter that sometimes one has to pay more to live in a certain place because it's more diverse and you feel more accepted there or because it's not that easy to just pick up and move for a very large percentage of the population.
But, okay, put ssmjlm in her place! Go, you!
(And if I have mixed you up with another poster, well, so be it.)
No that wasn't me. I moved closer to DH when we were dating.
I don't know who you're talking about above.
I was talking to @idaholakelady. Thanks for "reading and listening" to the line in which it was clear I wasn't speaking to you.
I think part of what is 'scary' for white women on this board right now, is the fear that something they said, even years ago, that they can't remember, has been remembered that entire time by someone else. (Edit: and the fear is that it will be brought up now). But that's kind of the point - we have the privilege to think so little about a comment, to forget it as quickly as we wrote it, but to someone else it is indelible, it can never be forgotten and never will be. That should be much scarier. (Edit: because that speaks to the impact of our 'I didn't mean it like that' comments).
But this is exactly what I mean about white women not being used to facing social vulnerability. This should not be scary. Embarrassing yes. But what should be more embarrassing is that we've forgotten all of those things we've said.
like you want people to be your friend but you aren't even comfortable addressing your own shittiness or even remembering it. Well no, no one wants to be friends with that.
Yes. I my intent was to use scarier in two different ways, the latter being one that was more about how embarrassing/shameful it should feel.
Edit: a better way to have explained it would have been to say one response is grounded in white fragility, the other is on taking responsibility.
I think part of what is 'scary' for white women on this board right now, is the fear that something they said, even years ago, that they can't remember, has been remembered that entire time by someone else. (Edit: and the fear is that it will be brought up now). But that's kind of the point - we have the privilege to think so little about a comment, to forget it as quickly as we wrote it, but to someone else it is indelible, it can never be forgotten and never will be. That should be much scarier. (Edit: because that speaks to the impact of our 'I didn't mean it like that' comments).
To be fair I remember things that are "off" to me not just racial things.
On the racial front and things that separate Asians and other lighter skinned minorities - I remember one day (on the old MM) someone was asking about "nude" shoes. I mentioned that it pisses me off that people used "nude" to refer to beige shoes. miso weighed in and said that it wasn't racist, nude means whatever shade your skin tone is and you get those shoes. And because she's a minority that was the end of it. But dammit if you brought out a pair of shoes that matched my skin tone and polled for the colour you would hear a resounding "brown".
And things like that is why you can find a beige ("nude") bra in any store where bras are sold but a brown bra is next to impossible to find. Because that's not "nude".
I think there was a thread somewhere (I don't think I was actually posting in it) where someone commented about the section of a drugstore/store that has hair products for AAs (or lack there of in some cases). I thought of it the other day as I contemplated that it must have been, or maybe still is (?) difficult for women of colour to buy foundation/powder at most places and how I had never contemplated that, because of course, I haven't ever had to.
Edit: I should explain the link between your thought and mine...I was looking at make-up and the colour was 'nude'...and I thought about how that isn't really the case for everyone.
You posted in January that "the crazy coming out" made you not want to stick around here. That was in the big post here where kirkette was being viewed as "crazy."
So it doesn't really matter how you meant your atl comment. You have work to do. Do it or don't but don't come in here to explain yourself.
I think part of what is 'scary' for white women on this board right now, is the fear that something they said, even years ago, that they can't remember, has been remembered that entire time by someone else. (Edit: and the fear is that it will be brought up now). But that's kind of the point - we have the privilege to think so little about a comment, to forget it as quickly as we wrote it, but to someone else it is indelible, it can never be forgotten and never will be. That should be much scarier. (Edit: because that speaks to the impact of our 'I didn't mean it like that' comments).
To be fair I remember things that are "off" to me not just racial things.
On the racial front and things that separate Asians and other lighter skinned minorities - I remember one day (on the old MM) someone was asking about "nude" shoes. I mentioned that it pisses me off that people used "nude" to refer to beige shoes. miso weighed in and said that it wasn't racist, nude means whatever shade your skin tone is and you get those shoes. And because she's a minority that was the end of it. But dammit if you brought out a pair of shoes that matched my skin tone and polled for the colour you would hear a resounding "brown". And things like that is why you can find a beige ("nude") bra in any store where bras are sold but a brown bra is next to impossible to find. Because that's not "nude".
On a similar note, I recently read an article talking about what black and hispanic ballet dancers have to deal with when they purchase shoes. Dancers actually have to paint their toe shoes to match their flesh because no company sells shoes in different skin tones. It's 2016, and there isn't one company out there that sells toe shoes in an array of skin tones. That's a goddamn shame and an embarrassment, considering how many talented dancers of color there are and how they are often required to match shoes with skin to 'create a better picture' on stage. I mean, Misty Copeland has to use fucking pancake makeup to match her shoes to her skin. It's something that we (as in white people) do not think about but is yet another big fucking problem for POC to deal with.
They really need to start covering how to apologize properly in schools or something. Why are so many people under the impression that an apology is made better by a string of excuses and "I didn't mean it that ways?"
It is not like these rules are unique to race discussions. They should be the same ones you apply in your professional life, your interpersonal relationships, and any other interactions you have. Are the people who cannot seem to apologize without being defensive and offering excuses saying "I am sorry I missed that deadline, but my email was down and my kid got sick and..." to their bosses at work?
I was just in church a few hours ago, and I actually think the confession of sin from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer is a great model:
Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.
It's basically: I was wrong. In multiple ways. I screwed up. I am really sorry. Please forgive me. I will do better. The end.
No excuses. No minimizing. No deflecting. An excellent model for contrition.
I think part of what is 'scary' for white women on this board right now, is the fear that something they said, even years ago, that they can't remember, has been remembered that entire time by someone else. (Edit: and the fear is that it will be brought up now). But that's kind of the point - we have the privilege to think so little about a comment, to forget it as quickly as we wrote it, but to someone else it is indelible, it can never be forgotten and never will be. That should be much scarier. (Edit: because that speaks to the impact of our 'I didn't mean it like that' comments).
To be fair I remember things that are "off" to me not just racial things.
On the racial front and things that separate Asians and other lighter skinned minorities - I remember one day (on the old MM) someone was asking about "nude" shoes. I mentioned that it pisses me off that people used "nude" to refer to beige shoes. miso weighed in and said that it wasn't racist, nude means whatever shade your skin tone is and you get those shoes. And because she's a minority that was the end of it. But dammit if you brought out a pair of shoes that matched my skin tone and polled for the colour you would hear a resounding "brown".
And things like that is why you can find a beige ("nude") bra in any store where bras are sold but a brown bra is next to impossible to find. Because that's not "nude".
I bought the best brown bra yesterday, and it was on clearance. It's so soft and nice. It's the t-shirt version of this bra. This is the Demi cup version:
Post by sewpinkgal on Sept 11, 2016 14:26:16 GMT -5
sfy - I'm actually glad you brought up that bra. I just bought it this summer and I pleasantly noticed that it came in 4 shades of flesh tone, which I thought was great! When I went back to grab the link to post here, I noticed 2 things:
1 - All of the "flesh" colors are actual color names except the lightest one, which is named, you guessed it, "Naked." :?
2 - 2 of the flesh tones are being clearanced out. Now, I'm happy you got a bargain because yay for sales and it's an awesome bra, but my guess is they aren't going to be re-stocked because "Naked" is still full priced, as are the other bright colors for fall. I have a feeling they were just seasonal, which is crap.
When someone finds a statement you made hateful enough to remember it nearly a year later, don't tell them that you don't remember! Look that shit up. I found it quickly:
Oct 12, 2015 at 11:29am
Lolligoespop said:Which means it is homecoming for the entire AUC. Shouldn't have left out Spelman and CAU. Zarapipe:(huh) uh oh.... hmmmm. Maybe I need to go somewhere else. I'm not above fleeting the large crowds.
It doesn't matter if that's not how you meant it! Recognize that it was offensive and apologize.
Seriously people. If you physically hurt someone by accident like stepping on someone's foot, do you give them a million of excuses for why you did? Or do you apologize? WHY IS IT DIFFERENT FOR FEELINGS?!
I know I have taken way the fuck too long to say anything here. I can't tell you how many times I've used that analogy trying to get people to buy a clue.
There is so much willful disregard being displayed here. I'm not going to accept anyone pleading ignorance at this point - ignorance might have flown when you were 10 but not after everything here.
I am far from perfect. I have learned so much from the here and especially the POC. It was never and is never their job to point out when I'm being an ass, which I know I have been over the years. I'm not proud of it, but I'm grateful they cared enough to school me. Do you know what a decent person does after being schooled - actually do the work, read, study, look up Ted Talks, podcasts, open their eyes, face hard facts and ugliness in themselves and their community. Then realize you barely scratched the surface and still have a long ass way to go and keep going.
I know I'm freaking privileged. There is no question about that. What blows my mind (I know it shouldn't but it does) is the tenacity with which people hold on to their old tropes and refuse to see anything - history, appropriateness, actual suffering of real people you supposedly care about right in front of you, human compassion and decency. If you think you have ever suffered - why the fuck would you try to turn it into a suffering competition? Really why? (I'm enraged about the Irish history and McCarthyism remarks) If you have ever really suffered, you might have an ounce of compassion for the suffering of others. Don't fucking try to say I know suffering and yours doesn't count. If you knew suffering you would know that it's never ok to try to make another person's suffering less than your own. Especially with the historical, societial, institutional structures and blatant "capitalism means the market meets the demand" crap that people of color face, it's just fucked to even think about going there.
I'm not trying to say that my situation is a valid comparison to take of POC. It's not it's the smallest microissue compared to what they experience but its what I have to work with. It's been like watching the same trainwreck of narcissistic abuse (that I've been trying to untangle from my life) over and over again, but on an exponentially greater scale. I can eventually get away the shit and disown the remaining perpetrators; POC can't just get away from everything in society that is abusive toward then or disown every narcissistic racist white person. This whole tread is exhausting and it's not my day to day reality. I don't have anywhere near the strength and grace POc have demonstrated here (or have to demostrate day in and day out in their lives). I couldn't do what they do, they are better people than I am. I will still try to do my best.
But as I just demonstrated, my best apparently isn't very good because it's not about white people. It's not about me. I'm sorry if I went off the rails there trying to relate and say the abuse of a few (that I have experienced) is nothing compared to what POC face everyday from everywhere and that isn't the right approach.
There is this super gross meme going around on my FB that says
" How to survive a trip to Massachusetts"
" Don't Visit..."
And then goes on to list all of the communities predominantly inhabited by POC.
Fall River Dorchester Lowell Lynn Lawrence etc etc etc..
I have had to hide posts from like 5 people today.
Why?? Why?
ugh, that's gross. i was thinking today about the towns and cities people say to avoid in MA, and exactly it's all communities predominantly inhabited by POC. even the town next to me, I hear white people saying it has gone "downhill." what they mean is they are uncomfortable with the growing immigrant population and it angers me. what a disgusting sentiment.
See, this is the stuff I miss by not opening half the threads because I'm not actually a mom but got bored one day and wanted to find a new group of people to argue about food with.
Lol - having a kid means I ALWAYS have someone to argue about food with.
I don't open most of the threads here even though I am a mom, because I don't really care about clothing.
I'm still catching up with the rest of this thread - I want to say that @kirkette just gave me a moment of clarity (and shame) in her previous post about how if I wasn't standing up with Tami Taylor, I might as well have been against her and POC. Something in the way she worded it got to me. I can't say I'm sitting and laughing with anyone - more like shaking my head and saying WTF in my own mind, but not speaking up is not okay. For the record, I also sit and shake my head at a lot of non-race-related posts here and don't call people out about anything, really.
I have started speaking up more IRL, though - we have acquaintances that think they are hiLARious, and I cut them off at the pass the other night. And you know what? They actually listened and STFU. This isn't to say I'm perfect or whatever - just that instead of "listening and learning" (barf) I'm absorbing and doing. Maybe in baby steps, but maybe enough to make at least a little difference. Like, if we make it not okay for people to verbalize these awful things, and there's no "safe" arena for them to do so, maybe eventually their (our) thought processes will run the same way. I can hope (even though, I know "hope is not a strategy").
Oh, and I got that "Whoever You Are" book for L, and I seriously can't get through it without crying. What is wrong with our world that we need a book to say this in terms so simple?
There is this super gross meme going around on my FB that says
" How to survive a trip to Massachusetts"
" Don't Visit..."
And then goes on to list all of the communities predominantly inhabited by POC.
Fall River Dorchester Lowell Lynn Lawrence etc etc etc..
I have had to hide posts from like 5 people today.
Why?? Why?
ugh, that's gross. i was thinking today about the towns and cities people say to avoid in MA, and exactly it's all communities predominantly inhabited by POC. even the town next to me, I hear white people saying it has gone "downhill." what they mean is they are uncomfortable with the growing immigrant population and it angers me. what a disgusting sentiment.
To be fair MA is a very racist & classist place. I get shit all the time for living in a town that is 90 percent white with a crap reputation. But notice how we never make " those" lists. "Those" lists are just for places where " white" people aren't the majority.
To be fair I remember things that are "off" to me not just racial things.
On the racial front and things that separate Asians and other lighter skinned minorities - I remember one day (on the old MM) someone was asking about "nude" shoes. I mentioned that it pisses me off that people used "nude" to refer to beige shoes. miso weighed in and said that it wasn't racist, nude means whatever shade your skin tone is and you get those shoes. And because she's a minority that was the end of it. But dammit if you brought out a pair of shoes that matched my skin tone and polled for the colour you would hear a resounding "brown". And things like that is why you can find a beige ("nude") bra in any store where bras are sold but a brown bra is next to impossible to find. Because that's not "nude".
On a similar note, I recently read an article talking about what black and hispanic ballet dancers have to deal with when they purchase shoes. Dancers actually have to paint their toe shoes to match their flesh because no company sells shoes in different skin tones. It's 2016, and there isn't one company out there that sells toe shoes in an array of skin tones. That's a goddamn shame and an embarrassment, considering how many talented dancers of color there are and how they are often required to match shoes with skin to 'create a better picture' on stage. I mean, Misty Copeland has to use fucking pancake makeup to match her shoes to her skin. It's something that we (as in white people) do not think about but is yet another big fucking problem for POC to deal with.
Same issue with a lot of the costumes the "nude" illusion netting is light beige by default. There was a whole thing is a ballet documentary about the dancers of color having to paint the fabric to match their skin tone with permanent markers.
And in another version of same shit different day, the same issue comes up with wedding dresses and all things of wedding related stuff like cake toppers. Good luck finding anything representative of POC
On a similar note, I recently read an article talking about what black and hispanic ballet dancers have to deal with when they purchase shoes. Dancers actually have to paint their toe shoes to match their flesh because no company sells shoes in different skin tones. It's 2016, and there isn't one company out there that sells toe shoes in an array of skin tones. That's a goddamn shame and an embarrassment, considering how many talented dancers of color there are and how they are often required to match shoes with skin to 'create a better picture' on stage. I mean, Misty Copeland has to use fucking pancake makeup to match her shoes to her skin. It's something that we (as in white people) do not think about but is yet another big fucking problem for POC to deal with.
Same issue with a lot of the costumes the "nude" illusion netting is light beige by default. There was a whole thing is a ballet documentary about the dancers of color having to paint the fabric to match their skin tone with permanent markers.
And in another version of same shit different day, the same issue comes up with wedding dresses and all things of wedding related stuff like cake toppers. Good luck finding anything representative of POC
I feel like this is what Nelly was trying to teach us all in 2000 with that bandaid. Instead all we heard was to take off all our clothes.
Same issue with a lot of the costumes the "nude" illusion netting is light beige by default. There was a whole thing is a ballet documentary about the dancers of color having to paint the fabric to match their skin tone with permanent markers.
And in another version of same shit different day, the same issue comes up with wedding dresses and all things of wedding related stuff like cake toppers. Good luck finding anything representative of POC
I feel like this is what Nelly was trying to teach us all in 2000 with that bandaid. Instead all we heard was to take off all our clothes.
What? I just found out that's not why Nelly was wearing the band aid!! He was simply covering up a basketball injury!! I thought there was some sort of racial justice signifigance to this all these years!! Dammit Nelly!!
I feel like this is what Nelly was trying to teach us all in 2000 with that bandaid. Instead all we heard was to take off all our clothes.
What? I just found out that's not why Nelly was wearing the band aid!! He was simply covering up a basketball injury!! I thought there was some sort of racial justice signifigance to this all these years!! Dammit Nelly!!
Lol, that's what I thought too, you're not alone.
Is this a sort of racism too? Thinking that even the smallest thing a black person does is to educate us* vs just figuring that he has an injury?
What? I just found out that's not why Nelly was wearing the band aid!! He was simply covering up a basketball injury!! I thought there was some sort of racial justice signifigance to this all these years!! Dammit Nelly!!
Lol, that's what I thought too, you're not alone.
Is this a sort of racism too? Thinking that even the smallest thing a black person does is to educate us* vs just figuring that he has an injury?
*Universal white us
Maybe it is?? Maybe I expect to be taught too much?? I probably do. I heard that it was a racial justice stand in like 2001, & rarely have thought about Nelly since.
I also thought the lyrics to Informer by Snow were going to be amazing & deep & then found out they were " a lickey boom boom down" & was all disappointed.
Maybe it is?? Maybe I expect to be taught too much?? I probably do. I heard that it was a racial justice stand in like 2001, & rarely have thought about Nelly since.
I also thought the lyrics to Informer by Snow were going to be amazing & deep & then found out they were " a lickey boom boom down" & was all disappointed.