A bag of CANDY dicks wasn't the hill I wanted to die on, but so be it.
I truly apologize for my reaction to an inaccuracy last night. It wasn't just the literal-dicks post that upset me. Karma is a young widow who just last holiday season was the recipient of love, support, and lots of financial goodness after her husband tragically and unexpectedly died by suicide. This holiday season she now needs a break from ML after the beat down from several posters. ML seems to be a microcosm of the world we live in now. I feel sad that people, all people, aren't treated with kindness and respect. Feel free to read my post history; the majority of my posts are supportive and kind. Last night I got angry because Karma has always mentioned that ML is her place of support. We fucking failed her. And maybe some of you don't care, but I care about Karma a great deal. Not offered as an excuse, but that is what went through my mind. Bag of candy dicks was just the straw...My bag of candy dicks post had way more unexpressed emotion behind it than a simple semantic correction. I needed to stop shaking and calm down before posting any more. There you have it.
elle, thank you for writing eloquently what going through my mind. That was the problem that I was too upset to put into words at that moment.
And karmasabiotch, I sent you a PM which will mostly likely go unread as you are on a break. But my offer in the PM always stands.
To the women on my Recovery board, I broke a cardinal rule, "pause when agitated". Those in recovery will know what I'm talking about. Learn from this.
ML used to be a source of laughter. Years ago, sitting at my desk, stifling laughter was a daily occurrence. Now there is no laughter. Recently, I've listened quietly, somewhat fearful that something I write might offend someone in some way. As posters suggested last night, I will GTFO and GO SAT DOWN. And I'll pray for peace as this awful inauguration and uncertain four years looms ahead. Shalom.
The boards have become more inclusive and hurtful things aren't tolerated anymore. Sorry you aren't able to laugh at all the offensive shit anymore though.
I explained my self-absorbed comment. It's a general plea for some reflection and perspective. I wasn't personally attacking Karma. It's odd that people keep falling back on it as a personal attack when it wasn't.
Except she's the only one who has been personally attacked in here, repeatedly (not just by you, BTW, speaking of being self absorbed) to the point she has now left.
Holy fuck, people! Karma is not a victim. People explained why, despite her good intentions, SS is probably in poor taste right now when we keep ignoring/offending POC. And then POC come in YET AGAIN to try to explaon that, yeah, actually, it is hurtful. And rather than stopping and saying, "hmmm, maybe I should listen to that and hear what she's saying," it's going to turn into how awful WE and POC are being for trying to explain how it's hurtful?? FUCK.
And @courtneyl, that you could seriously be speechifying about tolerance and love for all people and then essentially say that one person's desire to have some holiday fun is more meaningful than being considerate/compassionate toward WOC... That is some next-level shit. BYE FELICIA.
Holy fuck, people! Karma is not a victim. People explained why, despite her good intentions, SS is probably in poor taste right now when we keep ignoring/offending POC. And then POC come in YET AGAIN to try to explaon that, yeah, actually, it is hurtful. And rather than stopping and saying, "hmmm, maybe I should listen to that and hear what she's saying," it's going to turn into how awful WE and POC are being for trying to explain how it's hurtful?? FUCK.
And @courtneyl , that you could seriously be speechifying about tolerance and love for all people and then essentially say that one person's desire to have some holiday fun is more meaningful than being considerate/compassionate toward WOC... That is some next-level shit. BYE FELICIA.
Is this really THAT hard to understand?
If some people haven't gotten it by now, I truly doubt they ever will.
“Life is not orderly. No matter how we try to make it so, right in the middle of it lose a leg, fall in love, drop a jar of applesauce.” - Natalie Goldberg
Holy fuck, people! Karma is not a victim. People explained why, despite her good intentions, SS is probably in poor taste right now when we keep ignoring/offending POC. And then POC come in YET AGAIN to try to explaon that, yeah, actually, it is hurtful. And rather than stopping and saying, "hmmm, maybe I should listen to that and hear what she's saying," it's going to turn into how awful WE and POC are being for trying to explain how it's hurtful?? FUCK.
And @courtneyl, that you could seriously be speechifying about tolerance and love for all people and then essentially say that one person's desire to have some holiday fun is more meaningful than being considerate/compassionate toward WOC... That is some next-level shit. BYE FELICIA.
Is this really THAT hard to understand?
I don't know. Why don't you try living through what she has and then get back to us on how well you function a year later. She wanted to do Secret Santa. Let's not play like she used the n word, or expressed disbelief that a WOC could also be wealthy, or sent someone a bag of dicks. She just wanted to do Secret Santa. I understand how some people could say that's insensitive, although I have yet to see a reason that goes beyond the fact that it removes another layer of anonymity on a board where people already feel threatened. But you know something? Secret Santa is just a complication of that. It's not the cause, nor is it even a symptom. It is just a complication, and it's one that could be worked out any number of ways - by vetting Secret Santa more closely this year, by using Amazon wishlists that don't expose addresses, by not correlating addresses with screenames.
But, again, at the end of the day, Secret Santa is not the problem. The problem is that there are horrible people on here that do things like committing hate crimes. Not doing Secret Santa is not going to solve that. It's just another stupid hollow gesture that is primarily being driven by those of us with white guilt. And I think it is bullshit that people are trying to shame Karma for not exhibiting her white guilt in the preferred method of others with white guilt.
If people wanted to do something actually meaningful, perhaps @kirkette would be gracious enough to give us another entity willing to serve as an outlet for our guilt and we can do a mandatory donation before being admitted to Secret Santa, then find an anonymous method for gift exchange.* Or maybe it's really a horrible idea. All I know is that what some of you are doing to Karma right now is not right.
* And since enough people here have lost their damn mind that a disclaimer seems necessary, this is not a serious suggestion. It's a commentary on all the earnest "teach us to do better" "we aren't those white people" ness that goes on here. God. It literally (LITERALLY) makes my toes curl in embarrassment. How about for Christmas this year we quit harboring racists, quit defending racists, and admit even the best intentioned amongst us are coming at this with a noblesse oblige that is not all that appealing.
Holy fuck, people! Karma is not a victim. People explained why, despite her good intentions, SS is probably in poor taste right now when we keep ignoring/offending POC. And then POC come in YET AGAIN to try to explaon that, yeah, actually, it is hurtful. And rather than stopping and saying, "hmmm, maybe I should listen to that and hear what she's saying," it's going to turn into how awful WE and POC are being for trying to explain how it's hurtful?? FUCK.
And @courtneyl , that you could seriously be speechifying about tolerance and love for all people and then essentially say that one person's desire to have some holiday fun is more meaningful than being considerate/compassionate toward WOC... That is some next-level shit. BYE FELICIA.
Is this really THAT hard to understand?
If some people haven't gotten it by now, I truly doubt they ever will.
Well if the post after yours doesn't prove this to me, nothing will.
If some people haven't gotten it by now, I truly doubt they ever will.
Well if the post after yours doesn't prove this to me, nothing will.
Does it make you at all uncomfortable to appoint yourself the voice of what WOC find offensive? Because, to me, it's coming off almost like you don't trust a group of women who have shown themselves to be perfectly articulate to make their own point. I think I've seen one WOC say it makes her uncomfortable and one express the view that Secret Santa is not the issue. And about half a dozen women who self identify as white jumping all over karma for not being sensitive enough to a group they aren't even part of.
I am not saying Secret Santa is a good idea, nor am I saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that you can maybe give Karma a fucking break right now. But go ahead and flame me all you want, because I'm happy to take it.
“Life is not orderly. No matter how we try to make it so, right in the middle of it lose a leg, fall in love, drop a jar of applesauce.” - Natalie Goldberg
Well if the post after yours doesn't prove this to me, nothing will.
Does it make you at all uncomfortable to appoint yourself the voice of what WOC find offensive? Because, to me, it's coming off almost like you don't trust a group of women who have shown themselves to be perfectly articulate to make their own point. I think I've seen one WOC say it makes her uncomfortable and one express the view that Secret Santa is not the issue. And about half a dozen women who self identify as white jumping all over karma for not being sensitive enough to a group they aren't even part of.
I am not saying Secret Santa is a good idea, nor am I saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that you can maybe give Karma a fucking break right now. But go ahead and flame me all you want, because I'm happy to take it.
Most WOC (myself included) don't bother commenting on these bullshit ass posts anymore. Some of you are beyond repair.
Well if the post after yours doesn't prove this to me, nothing will.
Does it make you at all uncomfortable to appoint yourself the voice of what WOC find offensive? Because, to me, it's coming off almost like you don't trust a group of women who have shown themselves to be perfectly articulate to make their own point. I think I've seen one WOC say it makes her uncomfortable and one express the view that Secret Santa is not the issue. And about half a dozen women who self identify as white jumping all over karma for not being sensitive enough to a group they aren't even part of.
I am not saying Secret Santa is a good idea, nor am I saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that you can maybe give Karma a fucking break right now. But go ahead and flame me all you want, because I'm happy to take it.
So we're not supposed to stand up for the WOC on here because we're not a part of that group?
WTAF? That's what they've been asking us to do for quite awhile now.
“Life is not orderly. No matter how we try to make it so, right in the middle of it lose a leg, fall in love, drop a jar of applesauce.” - Natalie Goldberg
Does it make you at all uncomfortable to appoint yourself the voice of what WOC find offensive? Because, to me, it's coming off almost like you don't trust a group of women who have shown themselves to be perfectly articulate to make their own point. I think I've seen one WOC say it makes her uncomfortable and one express the view that Secret Santa is not the issue. And about half a dozen women who self identify as white jumping all over karma for not being sensitive enough to a group they aren't even part of.
I am not saying Secret Santa is a good idea, nor am I saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that you can maybe give Karma a fucking break right now. But go ahead and flame me all you want, because I'm happy to take it.
So we're not supposed to stand up for the WOC on here because we're not a part of that group?
WTAF? That's what they've been asking us to do for quite awhile now.
I'm saying it's messy. Of course people should say something when the n word is used. But Secret Santa? That, to me, is not an obviously racially insensitive, so I don't think Karma deserved the comments she got. Comments that affected her to the extent that she said she's done with a board that, at its best last year, was a support to her. I just think the comments directed to her were unnecessary and a distraction.
So we're not supposed to stand up for the WOC on here because we're not a part of that group?
WTAF? That's what they've been asking us to do for quite awhile now.
I'm saying it's messy. Of course people should say something when the n word is used. But Secret Santa? That, to me, is not an obviously racially insensitive, so I don't think Karma deserved the comments she got. Comments that affected her to the extent that she said she's done with a board that, at its best last year, was a support to her. I just think the comments directed to her were unnecessary and a distraction.
So, fuck how the WOC feel and don't say anything about it so you don't hurt one person's feelings?
“Life is not orderly. No matter how we try to make it so, right in the middle of it lose a leg, fall in love, drop a jar of applesauce.” - Natalie Goldberg
I'm saying it's messy. Of course people should say something when the n word is used. But Secret Santa? That, to me, is not an obviously racially insensitive, so I don't think Karma deserved the comments she got. Comments that affected her to the extent that she said she's done with a board that, at its best last year, was a support to her. I just think the comments directed to her were unnecessary and a distraction.
So, fuck how the WOC feel and don't say anything about it so you don't hurt one person's feelings?
Ok.
No. there is a way to say something without personally calling out someone who has a good reason to have had her head in the sand over the last year. I'm not addressing people who were just discussing Secret Santa. I'm addressing the people asking how Karma didn't notice what happened in the last year.
Again, it's tough and messy and I'm sure we all get it wrong. I'm sure I'm getting it wrong. There's just something so . . I don't know. Colonial/in loco parentis/something about a bunch of white women coming in and attacking someone else in the name of the WOC when the WOC have not actually said anything definitive about it.
I guess, for me, there's two issues. One is the small number of people who called out Karma. The other is just the uneasy feeling I get with the idea of a bunch of white women saying what's best for WOC. I'm not saying this well, I can just say for myself that: (1) it makes me feel gross to purport to know what a group I'm not part of feels about an issue that isn't immediately obvious; and (2) to the extent this post was about that, and part of it was, attacking Karma for having her head in the sand is over the line.
Elle. For fuck's sake. How thick is your goddamn bubble? Is it made of soundproof glass?
You know what? It's pretty fucking thick. But at least I know that. How's your bubble?
Not nearly as thick as yours, because I'm actively working on it and not dismissing the opinions of more than one WOC who in this very thread has said that a Secret Santa thread surprises them not even a little because it means not a damn thing has changed here.
Am I sorry that Karma has had a rough year? Of course. Am I placing more weight on her feelings than on those of women who are so used to being marginalized that they're just shrugging at the idea that people still want to exchange Lush bath bombs? No, I fucking am not.
You know what? It's pretty fucking thick. But at least I know that. How's your bubble?
Not nearly as thick as yours, because I'm actively working on it and not dismissing the opinions of more than one WOC who in this very thread has said that a Secret Santa thread surprises them not even a little because it means not a damn thing has changed here.
Am I sorry that Karma has had a rough year? Of course. Am I placing more weight on her feelings than on those of women who are so used to being marginalized that they're just shrugging at the idea that people still want to exchange Lush bath bombs? No, I fucking am not.
OK moral high ground. Suffice it to say that not being interested in your opinion about what WOC think is not the same as not being interested in what WOC themselves think. Sorry that distinction is lost on you.
Not nearly as thick as yours, because I'm actively working on it and not dismissing the opinions of more than one WOC who in this very thread has said that a Secret Santa thread surprises them not even a little because it means not a damn thing has changed here.
Am I sorry that Karma has had a rough year? Of course. Am I placing more weight on her feelings than on those of women who are so used to being marginalized that they're just shrugging at the idea that people still want to exchange Lush bath bombs? No, I fucking am not.
OK moral high ground. Suffice it to say that not being interested in your opinion about what WOC think is not the same as not being interested in what WOC themselves think. Sorry that distinction is lost on you.
I honestly just laughed at your smug superiority. You're right, you've got it all figured out.
Post by killercupcake on Dec 3, 2016 21:35:19 GMT -5
The WOC on this board have said time and time again that they are done explaining simple shit to us. So it really shouldn't be surprising that none of them are coming in here to educate everyone again. Although god bless kicks for trying.
The idea that we don't know what any WOC on GBCN may feel about this is insane. They've told us over and over again.
OK moral high ground. Suffice it to say that not being interested in your opinion about what WOC think is not the same as not being interested in what WOC themselves think. Sorry that distinction is lost on you.
I honestly just laughed at your smug superiority. You're right, you've got it all figured out.
Reading comprehension too! You bring it all to the table. I'm pretty sure I just said I have *nothing* figured out except that it's shitty to pile on a recent widow for being self absorbed. But, again, if it wasn't clear- I have none of this figured out. I appreciate Kirkette's post. I appreciate Ash's post. And I continue to believe that this is not a straightforward issue and is one that POC and others who have felt threatened are themselves best equipped to address.
But I'm now done with this. Your inexplicable vitriol is a distraction and I'm not going to play into it anymore.
I honestly just laughed at your smug superiority. You're right, you've got it all figured out.
Reading comprehension too! You bring it all to the table. I'm pretty sure I just said I have *nothing* figured out except that it's shitty to pile on a recent widow for being self absorbed. But, again, if it wasn't clear- I have none of this figured out. I appreciate Kirkette's post. I appreciate Ash's post. And I continue to believe that this is not a straightforward issue and is one that POC and others who have felt threatened are themselves best equipped to address.
But I'm now done with this. Your inexplicable vitriol is a distraction and I'm not going to play into it anymore.
The WOC on this board have said time and time again that they are done explaining simple shit to us. So it really shouldn't be surprising that none of them are coming in here to educate everyone again. Although god bless kicks for trying.
The idea that we don't know what any WOC on GBCN may feel about this is insane. They've told us over and over again.
I think there are varying views being expressed in this post by WOC, but if there's a consensus opinion and wanting to do SS is insensitive to that, then I am in the wrong for defending it.
The WOC on this board have said time and time again that they are done explaining simple shit to us. So it really shouldn't be surprising that none of them are coming in here to educate everyone again. Although god bless kicks for trying.
The idea that we don't know what any WOC on GBCN may feel about this is insane. They've told us over and over again.
I think there are varying views being expressed in this post by WOC, but if there's a consensus opinion and wanting to do SS is insensitive to that, then I am in the wrong for defending it.
Did you read a different thread? No WOC said they wanted to do SS and thought it was a good idea. So yeah the consensus is that it's a bad idea.
However, I don't think many of us are going to be hurt/upset/frustrated because like we've said many times, you all have showed your true colors and there's nothing to change that. There is nothing kumbuya about this place. So you all keep doing what you're doing.
I think there are varying views being expressed in this post by WOC, but if there's a consensus opinion and wanting to do SS is insensitive to that, then I am in the wrong for defending it.
Did you read a different thread? No WOC said they wanted to do SS and thought it was a good idea. So yeah the consensus is that it's a bad idea.
However, I don't think many of us are going to be hurt/upset/frustrated because like we've said many times, you all have showed your true colors and there's nothing to change that. There is nothing kumbuya about this place. So you all keep doing what you're doing.
I thought I read a post from Ash where she said she didn't care if we did SecretSanta or not. I am sorry I was not aware that there was a consensus opinion on this, or prior discussions, but since there is, then you're obviously right that we shouldn't do it. My primary concern was not having Karma take the heat for this, and I appreciate you pointing out that it was shit that people scattered like roaches and left her to take the fall for something about 40 people had said they wanted to do.
Did you read a different thread? No WOC said they wanted to do SS and thought it was a good idea. So yeah the consensus is that it's a bad idea.
However, I don't think many of us are going to be hurt/upset/frustrated because like we've said many times, you all have showed your true colors and there's nothing to change that. There is nothing kumbuya about this place. So you all keep doing what you're doing.
I thought I read a post from Ash where she said she didn't care if we did SecretSanta or not. I am sorry I was not aware that there was a consensus opinion on this, or prior discussions, but since there is, then you're obviously right that we shouldn't do it.
Yes like I said we aren't going to be sad that you all do SS. Hell, 'most of us don't even post here anymore, so do you. It's still in poor form but it's not going to hurt our feelings because we have been through with the nonsense that occurs around here. There is pretty much nothing that can be done to change that. That it what she/we meant when we said we don't care. So now all you non women of color can fight amongst yourself about what you all want to do.