From my experience, I don't remember any overt teachings of racism. I don't remember being taught to fear the black or Hispanic male. My parents certainly didn't use derogatory language towards other races, but I'm certain that like most white people they used micro-aggressions and their unconscious biases came out. And I also didn't grow up knowing many black people so my primary examples were the Huxtables or people on daytime tv, or news stories. My high school class of 600 had maybe a dozen black students.
I had a similar experience growing up. In some ways I think it makes it trickier to tease out those subconscious beliefs because I wasn't influenced by overt racism, but still benefited from the power structure and society that props up those beliefs.
As an adult, I've come to be able to acknowledge the biases I've held. But pinpointing where and when I picked them up isn't possible. They come from being born and raised in a society where every institution and every industry is designed to uphold the privilege of the white man and woman.
I can only assume that for the women that feel the need to call the police on people just living their lives, it is about fear of something they might not understand (I know this sounds stupid, but I believe there is some truth in it) and to a larger extent, about power. These women, using the police force to cause someone else to change their behavior, gives them a sense of power.
Right, like the woman who called the police on the people having a bbq. She was righteously indignant that they were "breaking the rules" and when they ignored her, it became imperative to have the power structure (the police) come in and back her up and "prove" she was right. We (white women) are accustomed to being right as well as protected.
Can ya'll talk about specific examples of "fear the world around you?"
Like, I know I'm cognizant of odd behavior or someone following me, but not the random guy sitting next to the store. I look at him and think - he's just chilling - not OMG LOITERING! CALL THE COPS.
For me, it was being taught that I will need to be saved. I'm a precious princess and will need the "white knight" to rescue me. I am wary of any person that seems out of place, the person not ordering coffee at the coffee shop, the person at the library without a book, the man walking behind me too closely on a suburban sidewalk. etc. I lived in an area with very few people of color, and my mom was always much more nervous when men of color were around. My parents are both pretty racist, so that didn't help much.
Post by cookiemdough on May 14, 2018 12:04:48 GMT -5
So far a lot has to do with lack of interaction or access to black people through media in fairly negative portrayals. Now however there are much more shows, movies etc that depict black characters that are not violent...yet people still don’t watch. Why?
”Right, like the woman who called the police on the people having a bbq. She was righteously indignant that they were "breaking the rules" and when they ignored her, it became imperative to have the power structure (the police) come in and back her up and "prove" she was right. We (white women) are accustomed to being right as well as protected. [/quote]”
This resonates with me. I can see how this could happen. Is it that if you are “right” than your willingness to call wasn’t motivated by racism and can take comfort in that?
Why are we so afraid of black people? On the surface, because most of us grew up without much interaction with people who are different from us, and Were taught to fear differences. And the extent of conversations I heard about racism was that it was abolished after the civil war, and then again after the civil rights movement, and now black people need to get over it because my friends and I had never owned slaves, so what do we have to apologize for?
But I think deep down it’s because it’s understood that if black people organize and rise up, we could become the oppressed and end up treated the way we have treated black people. And apparently rather than apologizing and attempting to start making amends/reparations, we are going to dig our heels in and continue/increase the behaviors that have brought us to this point, further increasing the underlying fear.
I am sorry. White people need to be held accountable.
This isn't just about being held accountable. That's not my goal here. My goal is to have people share why this behavior feels so common. What is it about black people being black that triggers a reaction to call the police? What standard of behavior are we holding black folks to, but not white folks? Why is this the case? What have you been told or believe about black people that makes you clutch your purse or have your kid run to the other side of an elevator when you show up in it?
Conditioning?
I grew up in a family where we didn't question our parents. We always did as we were told. If I talked back I'd be screamed at, have my dad pound the wall next to my head and then ask "why are you wincing like I'm going to hit you," and I was too sensitive and PC for worrying about other people's feelings. That's just the way the world works and I didn't know shit about shit. I went to church so I didn't go to hell, I listened to my parents or else I'd be punished. This is the way things are done, period, end of story, no deviation. You go to school, you go to church, you have certain people as friends, you get married and have babies, Husband Does This and Wife Does That, and all these other people doing it differently are wrong and bad. So I drove the long way on my daily college commute for the first year or two because then I wouldn't pass the projects and my parents wouldn't *somehow* find out that I disobeyed ... somehow, in the pre-smartphone and GPS days. They had friends all over town who could see me and tattle back to them, they said.
Bad things can happen in life, but the causes are generally from people who wouldn't be in my social circle. I couldn't bring home a non-white boyfriend, but the only warnings I got about my Italian-American boyfriend were that premarital sex was a sin and that my knee-length spaghetti strap dress made me look like a slut and if I got raped on the bus to go meet up with him it was my own fault for dressing that way. No assumptions that a white guy would automatically be out to hurt me. Bad things wouldn't happen to me if I stuck with people "like us." The threat is coming from the outside, not the nice cozy inside.
But my parents weren't/aren't racist, because in my grandmother's day she told my mom she couldn't date an Italian guy because of (insert slur here), so that's progress!!! We're not racist since we wouldn't say something like that to a black person's face or burn a cross in their lawn. We don't live in a "bad neighborhood" if we're surrounded by other white, working-class people just trying their darndest to get by. We're really good, enlightened people because we smile and say hi to the gay coworker rather than shun him. We're patriotic Americans and good Christians because we don't want a mosque built in our family-friendly town (because the real concern is parking spots, not terrorism of course because that's racist), and we don't dare question the brave cops and military people who are putting their lives on the line every single day to protect us all from ... something ... it doesn't matter what that *something* is, just know it's under attack from Them.
We don't talk about money because that's rude, but at the same time we wonder how "they" could possibly come by it honestly. We don't talk about politics because that's rude except we always vote for the pro-life candidate no matter what he proposes doing to the already living because It Won't Affect Us So Not Our Problem. We mind our own business except to comment on how the (mention race/ethnicity here, because somehow it always matters to the story) person did XYZ and that's weird/wrong. Our dried-out gross roast chicken is What We Eat And Thank God for It, but pad thai or tikka masala or injera bread or shawarma is weird and gross.
It really is about trying to make ourselves feel better about ourselves for the same exact things that "they" are doing. That we're better people in general, that we're better off in life, that we're not trash, that we have actually earned the things we have through hard work.
Segregated communities really condition us. I grew up in a very white, rural town. The news really drove home the idea that cities were poor and black and violent. I'd leave to go to the mall with my friends, and with it always came a heightened warning from our parents to be careful. That warning was always generic on its face -- "be careful" or "don't go into the parking lot by yourself" or whatever -- but because that messaging didn't accompany the trip to the local white Kmart, it was a subconscious messaging that we were in danger if we were going somewhere.
”Right, like the woman who called the police on the people having a bbq. She was righteously indignant that they were "breaking the rules" and when they ignored her, it became imperative to have the power structure (the police) come in and back her up and "prove" she was right. We (white women) are accustomed to being right as well as protected.
”
This resonates with me. I can see how this could happen. Is it that if you are “right” than your willingness to call wasn’t motivated by racism and can take comfort in that?
[/quote]
Yes, definitely a way to excuse the behavior. I'm not racist, I'm just following the rules!
”Right, like the woman who called the police on the people having a bbq. She was righteously indignant that they were "breaking the rules" and when they ignored her, it became imperative to have the power structure (the police) come in and back her up and "prove" she was right. We (white women) are accustomed to being right as well as protected.
”
This resonates with me. I can see how this could happen. Is it that if you are “right” than your willingness to call wasn’t motivated by racism and can take comfort in that?
I think so. I imagine that woman in the video cannot see her actions for what they were (racially targeted) but likely still believes it's about the principal of what is or is not allowed in the park. Being right, and having others in authority agree with your rightness, is important to those who are accustomed to wielding the power. And as we've discussed here, white women do wield a lot of power, especially when it comes to activating society's power structure. You see it in that bbq harasser's over dramatic gasping and tears. She was willing to double down on her two hours of foolishness just to be proved "right".
Segregated communities really condition us. I grew up in a very white, rural town. The news really drove home the idea that cities were poor and black and violent. I'd leave to go to the mall with my friends, and with it always came a heightened warning from our parents to be careful. That warning was always generic on its face -- "be careful" or "don't go into the parking lot by yourself" or whatever -- but because that messaging didn't accompany the trip to the local white Kmart, it was a subconscious messaging that we were in danger if we were going somewhere.
The town I grew up in sounds similar. I can literally count on one hand the number of minorities in my entire high school on one hand (and have 2 fingers leftover). When I left for college, more people than I can remember told me to "be careful." Several told me that I was going to get mugged.
In college I was dating a black guy for like a year and a half and he went home with me for a weekend and went to church with me and at least 5 people asked him if he was the special music for the service.
Because white people generally aren't used to *seeing* black people live their lives? I don't know. I think when you don't live near black people, don't work with them, don't do business with them, don't spend time anywhere with them, etc., and all you know and see about black people is through the lens of the media that doesn't show black people unless they're being portrayed negatively (as criminals, as impoverished, etc.), it's downright weird to see black people taking vacations and shit or even just sitting somewhere minding their own business.
I mean, it sounds ridiculously stupid when I type it out but if I had to hazard a guess, that's why. Even in diverse cities like Philadelphia which is still segregated like so many other big diverse cities.
Maybe? I grew up in a very white suburb of Pittsburgh, and it was very insular. There were two black families in my school. Two. I look back now and think about what that was like for them- I was good friends with one girl, and she never talked about it, but I can't imagine in that area that there weren't tensions even if she was unaware or just didn't want to talk about it. I then went to an engineering-specific college that was mostly white males, and continued to not have a lot of interaction with black people.
When I graduated, got a job, and moved, it was to a very diverse area, so seeing people from all backgrounds was the norm and everyone went about their own business. But I mostly credit my mom, who would have never, ever tolerated anything less than basic human respect for any person I ever interacted with. But her politics and world view have always been more progressive than her peers'- I remember going with her to vote in a primary when I was in middle school and mid-afternoon, she was the first person to request a D ballot.
Where I see it the most now is the white moms at DD's school. White kids are by far the minority, with Latinx and AA kids being the two biggest groups, and some of these moms definitely have the mindset that their kids are somehow "missing out" on resources that should be available to them, but rarely have a specific example (they always point to ESL, so throw some xenophobia in there too). So yeah, I think white women see other-ness as a threat, can't see the privilege they already enjoy, and have no empathy for others. And they're fine with that.
This is all word vomit, just to say that I think about this a lot, but don't know to get white women's heads out of their asses, the mindset is so entwined with identity.
My parents are immigrants and moved out of Queens after my brother and I were born because they didn't want us going to school there - coded language for not wanting us to grow up around "lesser" brown and black families I guess. So what did they do? They moved to the whitest, most non-diverse area where my brother and I were the diversity.
My guess/assumption is that my parents learned through the colonization of India by the British that black people and other brown people were less than, even though as Indians, they too were less than. But they grew up in India when it was a new democracy but still steeped in old traditions that the British had brought over.
Post by EllieArroway on May 14, 2018 12:34:22 GMT -5
The older people in my life were overtly racist. Like, I always knew that my grandpa was robbed at gunpoint by two black men in Mississippi, and the story was definitely told in a way to emphasize that the men were black and that was the root of the problem. My grandma told us that dark skin correlated with morality, so people with the lightest skin were the most moral and people with the darkest skin were the least. She believed this as part of her religion.
However, even as a kid I knew all of that was racist bullshit.
But there were other things I learned from my mom (who would absolutely claim that she wasn't racist, and who would throw down with the grandparents mentioned above when they talked like that in front of us) that was harder to identify as racist when I was a kid. Like, she was absolutely terrified to visit some areas of Dallas. She would drive the long way around so as not to have to travel through the 'scary' neighborhoods. There was one mixed-race family in our town and, while I was allowed/encouraged to befriend their kids, I was never allowed to go to their house. I don't think she ever told me why, I just understood that she thought it was dangerous. Constant worry that some strange man is going to kidnap/rape you. The belief people who wear baggy pants and listen to rap music are probably on drugs/criminals. She was always afraid I was going to fall into the wrong crowd and the wrong crowd definitely wore baggy pants according to her so she flipped her shit when I started wearing JNCOs in my early teens.
IDK. Mostly it was just this fear of everything. My mom still will not walk outside by herself after dark, not even in her own back yard. And since we lived in such a small, white town (because good schools) all of the strangers tended to be minorities that we didn't know, so this idea that unknown (and especially minority) men = scary was just kind of drilled into our heads.
Where I see it the most now is the white moms at DD's school. White kids are by far the minority, with Latinx and AA kids being the two biggest groups, and some of these moms definitely have the mindset that their kids are somehow "missing out" on resources that should be available to them, but rarely have a specific example (they always point to ESL, so throw some xenophobia in there too). So yeah, I think white women see other-ness as a threat, can't see the privilege they already enjoy, and have no empathy for others. And they're fine with that.
And yet, instead of people saying, "Hey, we're missing out on some things in this school, how about we work to get those things into our school for all the kids?" it's "Shit, now I gotta sign my kid up for special stuff outside of school to make up for it." But since they also can't articulate what's missing and just blame the ESL kids for whatever the fuck it is, guess that's not even a realistic solution.
Again, it's hard to explain the "why" of this, but it's there and it's prevalent. I guess it is just being conditioned that wherever black people are doing business, going to school, etc. it will just be inferior no matter what. And that conditioning often happens in the most subtle of ways but happens for years and years so that you're ultimately hit over the head with it. And then where that translates into thinking every black person near you is up to no good is that, well, we know they don't have nice things so obviously when they are in an establishment with nice things, they're going to steal shit or attack the poor white folks who have denied them these nice things.
So far a lot has to do with lack of interaction or access to black people through media in fairly negative portrayals. Now however there are much more shows, movies etc that depict black characters that are not violent...yet people still don’t watch. Why?
I think it has to do with otherness. Like, those jokes aren't for me. The story isn't about me.
We just want to relax into a story about people that look like us, had similar experiences, eat the same food, celebrate the same holidays, etc because it's easier. Unlike black people, we usually have the option to do that 100% of the time, so...we do. I've made an effort to avoid doing this once i realized that I was doing it - my reading mostly has gotten a LOT more diverse (and TV, but I just don't watch that much interesting TV really), and it's really eye opening and I've found some new favorites. But when I've had a shit day and I'm tired and my brain or my heart hurt - I default back to my old favorites written by people who look like me about people who look like me.
which is part of why this is a thing - from jim crow to now - part of what's happening is that reaction to being forced to share space with people who aren't "us". when you're raised that that's an option, to own the space, to keep it yours and yours alone, you push back against any idea otherwise even if you don't realize that's what you're doing. White ladies who got black men lynched "back then" knew what they were doing I think. Now...I'm not sure they KNOW what theyr'e doing, but it's a willful unknowing. It has to be because of how we frame racism now as TERRIBLE but also only overt racism counts.
I definitely grew up in a primarily white area. Very rural out where i lived, but it was a big district in geographic terms so it covered a typical suburban area too). My high school had...like...5? total black people I think. A noticible proportion of hispanic, but very few black people. My mama had several black friends/girlfriends over the years, but the amount of time I spent in the company of black men was...well, really non-existent.
So then you layer over that consuming very white centered media (the news obviously paints a terrible picture, and I grew up reading a lot of sci-fi and fantasy and unfortunately didn't know/think to seek out authors of different perspectives. It was all Tolkien and Robert Jordan and Anne McCaffery etc etc so nothing to counter-act the prevailing overtones.) and being surrounded by people who describe the less affluent areas as sketchy ghettos. I distinctly remember my grandfather (dad's dad. blech.) driving through a "sketchy" neighborhood with my sister and I in the backseat once and making a big deal about rolling up the windows and locking the doors. I remember people at school talking about how you don't carry any cash on you in certain parts of the city I grew up near (Reading, PA. not a thriving place) And then things like, 'such a nice articulate black man' that as a kid would have rung zero bells for me as problematic - but it all sorta layers on there, and what that resulted in for me was not any overt prejudice that I was aware of, but a distinct feeling of "otherness" for black men specifically. Much less so for black women just because I did grow up with several grown black women in my life, but no peers, so there too to a lesser extent.
This was totally sub-conscious for a long time. I dated a black guy in college, and he was great, felt totally comfortable with him - but the one time I tried to hang out with his black friends on campus I was uncomfortably AS HELL. And I didn't know why. In my head, I thought they didn't like me because...reasons. My basic insecurities were enough that I didn't question that assumption at the time. In real life - I was probably noticeably uncomfortable, and they were just waiting for me to show my ass, and we went from there. I did eventually realize that I did have a distrustful feeling toward black men though. Like, that they just weren't my people? I felt my out-of-placeness anytime I was in a room with a black man unless they fit the Cosby Show mold. (which is...ironic in retrospect.) So it's just the next step to take your own out-of-placeness and try to turn it into THEIR out-of-placeness.
The idea that there could be a danger in social interaction with me to the other party...never ever ever crossed my mind until I was a grown ass adult and it was put in so many words. Repeatedly. Here mostly.
The idea of being colorblind is another big issue - because we aren't. obviously. Human nature (the ways our cognition works, the way we identify people, the way we group things, etc) and living in a segregated society built on white supremacy makes that completely impossible. But until we're willing to admit that we do in fact see race, it's impossible to see your own bias, so you make up a lot of bullshit to make yourself feel better, but at the base of it, if you see black people as "them" and have never been taught to just DEAL with not being 100% comfortable at all times, then this shit is going to happen.
There is a little bit of "other white ladies" here for me just because the social fear that many women feel is totally foreign to me. I run in the dark alone. I'm blissfully happy to stay home alone. I travel alone. I answer the door when somebody knocks. I shop in "sketchy" stores. I smile and nod at people when they smile at me. My mama has an inherent distrust of police (I guess from running in LGBTQI circles?? Also we grew up in an area where they'd take ages to get there, so....why call? Not sure what her deal is there though, we've never talked about. she just doesn't like cops.) But the othering that is a basic part of white supremacy - I'm for sure not immune to that. And I can see how when you put the two together with that willful blindness to your own biases that is an essential part of modern white supremacy - it's a fucking lethal combo.
Ok...well, so I just rambled A LOT. I tried to edit that mess, but uhhh, I dunno. I guess I'm just gonna post it and hope it makes sense?
Where I see it the most now is the white moms at DD's school. White kids are by far the minority, with Latinx and AA kids being the two biggest groups, and some of these moms definitely have the mindset that their kids are somehow "missing out" on resources that should be available to them, but rarely have a specific example (they always point to ESL, so throw some xenophobia in there too). So yeah, I think white women see other-ness as a threat, can't see the privilege they already enjoy, and have no empathy for others. And they're fine with that.
And yet, instead of people saying, "Hey, we're missing out on some things in this school, how about we work to get those things into our school for all the kids?" it's "Shit, now I gotta sign my kid up for special stuff outside of school to make up for it." But since they also can't articulate what's missing and just blame the ESL kids for whatever the fuck it is, guess that's not even a realistic solution.
Again, it's hard to explain the "why" of this, but it's there and it's prevalent. I guess it is just being conditioned that wherever black people are doing business, going to school, etc. it will just be inferior no matter what. And that conditioning often happens in the most subtle of ways but happens for years and years so that you're ultimately hit over the head with it. And then where that translates into thinking every black person near you is up to no good is that, well, we know they don't have nice things so obviously when they are in an establishment with nice things, they're going to steal shit or attack the poor white folks who have denied them these nice things.
And it's not even that their kids are missing out, it's just that someone else is getting something their kid isn't- because they don't need it! I. e. they don't get that while yes, the Title I funding we get does benefit all students to some extent, the point of that funding isn't to be divided by the number of students and spent accordingly.
I'm adding basic selfishness, condoned and encouraged by systemic racism, to my list of why white people pull this shit.
I've actually been thinking about this/reflecting on this a lot lately. I grew up in a tiny white town in the midwest, both of my parents were corrections officers with something like a 98% black inmate population. I was raised to think black men were dangerous. I was cautioned to not speak to/reach out to anyone from the prison my parents worked at. I wasn't allowed to visit them or send things to them. I see now that there are so many things that were wrong with that and obviously racist. I grew up and joined the military and was thrown into a very diverse environment that over the years has made me check a lot of my reactions/ways of thinking.
I try to make it a point to openly discuss racism with my son, something my parents never did. I sometimes feel like my words fail and maybe I'm not getting my point across but I'll keep trying. I also take him with me to various rallies/protests/forums so he can listen and learn from the people who experience racism and oppression. He's still into cartoons mostly but you're right cookiemdough, I should have him watching shows featuring people who aren't just white. He needs more books too.
Post by thejackpot on May 14, 2018 12:48:58 GMT -5
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
Post by runforrest on May 14, 2018 12:52:04 GMT -5
I've been trying to think about this, but like many, I do not recall anything overt/explicit when I was growing up in and around Detroit. But looking back, there was definitely a sense of "otherness" when my predominately Polish-enclave in the city began changing (white families moving to the suburbs, black and brown families moving in). I remember walking to church from my grandparent's house and my aunts commenting on how unkempt some of the yard were, how "different" the neighborhood was getting, how the Catholic church wasn't as full, etc. As a kid, and per my family, it was clear that in their eyes, this was happening because POC were moving to the neighborhood. There was the sense that they worked so hard after coming from Poland and coal mining in WVa that this was "their" neighborhood, and that only bad things could come when "others" moved in. Then we moved to the suburbs because the "schools were better", and as you get older, you realize what they meant when they talked about this stuff. And as a kid/teen, you (or at least I) hear this stuff and believe it to be true bc this is your family and surely they can't be racist/horrible people.
My school in the suburbs actually ended up being quite diverse, and then I went to U of M and realized all of that stuff was horseshit and microagressions, but it's a hard pill to swallow, at least for me, that even if it's not overt, I'd been raised to believe these things. I try really hard with my kids and everything, but we moved out of Chicago to the suburbs for a bigger house, shorter commute, and "good schools", and then before you know it, you're continuing the cycle and trying to make sure you aren't committing the same sins and/or teaching your kids the same subconscious biases.
My two cents. My parents both grew up right outside of Montgomery, AL. They were here during the civil rights movement. My mother has watched the Klan march. When we were stationed in New Mexico with the Air Force, I went to school with many non-white kids, partially due to the area, and partially due to the Air Force. I remember hearing my dad talk about black people, and I didn't understand why he was so negative about black people. He told me it was because black people "back home," meaning in Alabama, aren't the same as military black people. This is what I grew up being taught. I don't know if this was common in military families, the teaching I mean, but we heard it pretty often in my house.
My daughter chose a black doll last year. I let her get it, of course. That's what she wanted, and it's fine. My dad, on the other hand, asked if that doll was "a little dark." I told him that doll was fine; that's what she wanted. I say that to say that this shit starts early.
Today, I have black friends, and while I like to think I'm not racist, I know that's just not true. I still catch myself having these thoughts that are ingrained, like having fear of a black man walking down the street toward me when I'm alone. I know these thoughts are part of racism, but they are something I'm working on. I think when you've heard these racist "teachings" all your life, it takes some time to really unravel it and work to reverse it.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
I can only speak for myself, but I do have real friendships with POC, but admittedly, there are not that many POC in our current neighborhood, so my friendships stem mostly from high school and college. While we looked at homes in various cities near Chicago, some more diverse than others, we really loved our home, although it is in a less diverse town. I regret that we have put our kids into such a bubble, so we try to educate them. I have tried really hard to not have the same misconceptions/fears of my family, to teach my kids that every person is deserving of the same benefits, we treat all people with kindness, no matter what they look like, how we benefit in many ways because of the color of our skin, but that does not mean we are more deserving of those benefits, etc. We also travel a lot with them and are determined for them to see that our town is not indicative of the world at large.
As for the school issue, that's a really damn good question. It's such a clear microagression and has such an implied racial tone, but yet its part of the nomenclature. I really don't have an answer for that, other than I think that white people benefit from and are raised within a system that values them, where we can see people in power that look like us, where many of us were taught there were "nice slave owners", and so obviously we assume that we are worthy of the "good schools", and that surely the "inner city" (i.e., more diverse) schools can't possibly be as nice. It's fucked up.
My upbringing was a combination of overt and subtle racism. My mom taught me to be colorblind. The first time I heard how much bullshit that is, I was in high school. I'm pretty sure, on a conscious level, it was the first time I realized how subtle racism can be.
I can also remember being at a church theater thing when I was in high school, and we were trying to find seats. My mom asked a black woman that was watching by herself if she was "with that other group (not spoken: of black people), because, you never know!" My mom will also swear up and down she doesn't have a racist bone in her body.
And that brings up something else that's been on my mind. White women, no matter how "WOKE" you think you are, you still have racist tendencies.
I know personally, sometimes I'll be walking by myself to lunch downtown or whatever, and just get passed by a couple of black men walking to lunch too...Sometimes I pause and take an extra second to assess my surroundings like they are going to mug me or something. What kind of fuck is that?! I have to consciously tell myself that's fucking racist. I think it's important to be willing to admit it.
I also think the best thing I ever read on this board is that white women can't be trusted.
I find myself recognizing instances and telling myself more often than I like, that "This is why I can't be trusted."
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
I think all these things reinforce each other. In other words, the decision to settle in a community that lacks diversity prevents people from fully shedding the fears of their parents and having authentic relationships with POC. And vice versa, the fact that people still harbor the fears of their parents prevents them from settling in communities that lack diversity, etc.
Beyond that though, I think there's another piece of the puzzle, and that's that white people have trouble seeing white people as bad and do not impose the necessary consequences on unacceptable behavior. Shortly after the election, there was a piece posted here that really stuck out to me. The gist of it was that to combat racism, white people need to understand white people, not black people. I live in an unusually diverse neighborhood both in terms of race and socioeconomics (e.g. I can see from my front steps both a million dollar 2 bedroom home and a low income housing complex) and have good relationships with many POC, and I live 3000 miles from extended family so I'm not regularly around people that I don't actively choose to know. My pre-election 2016 mindset was one where I found it pretty easy to forget how much white people generally suck, and that piece was a real light switch for me.
I do find myself reverting to that mind set, where I think, "who the fuck are these people?" when I read stories about calling the cops and grabbing a gun when a black kid rings your doorbell. But the reality is that person is probably in my extended family or a neighbor growing up or someone else in my life. I know these people. I have to remember who they are, and do better about imposing consequences when I am in a position to do so.
I grew up with the colorblind teaching and be nice to everyone. So I didn't even realize that my mom was racist until 20 years later since I would guess she spoke in coded language or not about the topic at all. My Grandparents I realized were racist because they spoke more overtly.
I also grew up with a huge emphasis on fear and staying safe. I was in a rural area with no sidewalks, so I was not allowed to really bike on the road or walk on the road for fear of a car hitting me, and they did go down the road fast like 50 MPH. I wasn't allowed out after dark as a kid because people couldn't see me. I walked to my friends a few times, but I was never free range. I was always taught to be safe, watch my purse, watch for car jackers, lock my doors, avoid bad neighborhoods, never go in the woods during hunting season, as girls always travel in groups and watch out for predators/ guys. I still feel a lot of safety related fear like telling the kids don't hurt yourself or be careful in the parking lot etc. Its just a lot of safety anxiety, and we live in a very safe time with good medical care, so I think a lot of that is perpetuated by the news and then by adults passing it onto children trying to keep the kids safe, but then the kids internalize it as danger danger as adults.
From rural I moved to NYC where I was told by some people I would get shot. When I was in Harlem I was told by a white woman not to wait on the corner. Harlem was at that time pretty safe, so she was more scary than anyone else saying that to me. I interacted with the public, and the African Americans that I interacted with were the nicest people in the city. I worked in Anacostia Washington DC at a almost completely black daycare. It was a stressful, but great eye opening experience. I was often the only white woman at the neighborhood pool, so I definitely felt like what it was to be the only one in the room. Everyone was nice though because they could see I was taking care of the children. I learned a lot about other cultures, and even the difference between the Midwest and Northeast is different culturally.
I need to do better with the kids though because I know I am projecting my safety issues on them. They are 7 and 5, so I need to start letting go at least with the 7 year old and sit down and have that conversation with him that safety is important but ... And there is a lot more that I can start with them on the topic of race. We are in a more diverse area now, but its not exceptionally so.
To answer the questions- I think that my relationships are pretty authentic and organic. I do need to let go of the fears of my parents- I need to take some time and really work on that. We did end up moving from a city to a suburb that is less diverse. Really it was because we couldn't afford the daycare in the city and the housing in the city, and it was cheaper where we moved. But we did move somewhere with coded "good schools" when we could have moved somewhere more diverse. We tried one city that would have been more diverse but we just couldn't find a house and that city was farther away and more expensive housing. I guess it is because my job is a long way away, so it just didn't work out. We really tried looking a ton in the city and a ton in this other smaller city, and looked at about 100 houses, but we failed in that aspect in the end due to price and commute. There wasn't anything closer.
Post by CallingAllAngels on May 14, 2018 13:35:54 GMT -5
I think most white people, even when they do not realize it, want to maintain white supremacy. Any time a black person is acting like they belong in a public (AKA white) space, they are a threat to white supremacy. We have been socialized from a young age to believe that a world where black people - especially black men, but black women aren't exempt - are free is a dangerous place for a white woman. So, we see black people acting free and living their lives and we freak out and fear for ours.
I also believe that in addition to fear, people want to knock others down a peg in order to preserve their own place in the social hierarchy.
Segregated communities really condition us. I grew up in a very white, rural town. The news really drove home the idea that cities were poor and black and violent. I'd leave to go to the mall with my friends, and with it always came a heightened warning from our parents to be careful. That warning was always generic on its face -- "be careful" or "don't go into the parking lot by yourself" or whatever -- but because that messaging didn't accompany the trip to the local white Kmart, it was a subconscious messaging that we were in danger if we were going somewhere.
Not even just rural areas. I grew up in metro Detroit, which was/is incredibly segregated and with a documented history of racial tension. A lot of the discussions on this board when we talk about the coded language of 'good schools' and 'good neighborhoods,' really rings true with things I heard growing up from relatives and other people around me. Couple that with the way that the news covers crimes, you were conditioned that black people were criminals and were to be feared. I can't tell you the number of people I grew up around who would say "i'm not racist, but (and then spout off the most racist sentiments ever)." it still goes on.
I live in Queens, NY. If it were its own city, it would be the most diverse city in the US (world?). It has the most individual languages spoken and I think it's something like 50% immigrants.
Yet, each area and town is so incredibly segregated. Most of the Hispanic or black people I see are high school kids who go to the big high school a few blocks down from my apartment. They get there via subway, so they aren't super local kids. I mean, it's not shocking news that NYC and surrounding areas are segregated, but I feel like there's a whole lot of "you stay in your area" feelings from residents.
I grew up in a much more white area of PA and exposure to those of other races (like, all others) was basically non-existent. I feel like my parents were really good about not speaking of other races negatively, but that can only do so much when your older relatives are racist and spout off whatever bullshit they think, you have classmates who repeat stereotypes, etc. I think some things just get tangled into your mind when thinking of others and it takes a conscious effort to recognize it's some stereotyped BS and retrain your thinking.
Obviously self awareness is needed, but then people honestly do think it's okay to say "there are blacks moving to the neighborhood, so other people are moving out" and then follow it with "but I'm not racist." As though the second thought somehow makes the first one not offensive? And we, as in white people, are supposed to know that black people moving to the neighborhood is just bad. To me, the problem here is two-fold. 1. That the general assumption of POC = neighborhood is now unsafe and 2. that it's still acceptable in 2018 to vocalize bullshit like that.
I think most white people, even when they do not realize it, want to maintain white supremacy. Any time a black person is acting like they belong in a public (AKA white) space, they are a threat to white supremacy. We have been socialized from a young age to believe that a world where black people - especially black men, but black women aren't exempt - are free is a dangerous place for a white woman. So, we see black people acting free and living their lives and we freak out and fear for ours.
I also believe that in addition to fear, people want to knock others down a peg in order to preserve their own place in the social hierarchy.
This seems honest to me.
I hear the fear stuff and I know I am afraid too, like don't piss around at night getting out of my car, don't leave the doors unlocked etc but the level of "fear" in this thread is truly overwhelming.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
Honestly, I don’t know how to bridge the gap.
I’ll use church as an example. I go to a church whose congregation is almost 100% white. I have visited black churches, and I was uncomfortable there because the service was so different from what I was used to. I’m guessing that a lot of black people feel the same about my white church, and so we stay segregated.
So then, you think the next step is to try to “de-white” the white church, so that POC feel more comfortable joining us. But that’s problematic, because you don’t want white people stepping in with what they think POC would like to see in a church, so then you ask your 2 POC for their ideas – but then, isn’t that tokenizing them?
And then to go back to my first paragraph – I said I was uncomfortable at the black church because the service was so different. Well, the answer to that is to keep going, and get comfortable with the service. But then I have the question of, “Do they even want me here?” I have a few black acquaintances through facebook who have been very clear in the past about how white people aren’t needed/wanted/appreciated in their spaces. So if I were to go back to that church, and keep attending, would I just be seen as an interloper? I guess it’s up to me to just keep attending and earn people’s trust?
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
Honestly, I don’t know how to bridge the gap.
I’ll use church as an example. I go to a church whose congregation is almost 100% white. I have visited black churches, and I was uncomfortable there because the service was so different from what I was used to. I’m guessing that a lot of black people feel the same about my white church, and so we stay segregated.
So then, you think the next step is to try to “de-white” the white church, so that POC feel more comfortable joining us. But that’s problematic, because you don’t want white people stepping in with what they think POC would like to see in a church, so then you ask your 2 POC for their ideas – but then, isn’t that tokenizing them?
And then to go back to my first paragraph – I said I was uncomfortable at the black church because the service was so different. Well, the answer to that is to keep going, and get comfortable with the service. But then I have the question of, “Do they even want me here?” I have a few black acquaintances through facebook who have been very clear in the past about how white people aren’t needed/wanted/appreciated in their spaces. So if I were to go back to that church, and keep attending, would I just be seen as an interloper? I guess it’s up to me to just keep attending and earn people’s trust?
I think church is a lofty goal. I actually get why they are segregated, most churches are so different in the way they worship/music and routines.My church is 80%white and my husband doesn't feel connected to it. I don't feel like it's my church home but the pastor and lots of the parishioners are very friendly.
Both sides of my family are Hispanic and both sides are racist. I specifically remember my grandmother telling me to marry a white man because they will treat me better. Black men and brown men are no good and black even worse than brown. My own grandmother telling me this while she has black and brown grandchildren running around. At that time the only white person in the family was her last husband.
The other side of my family looks down on anyone that has melanin or had a lower class upbringing. In recent years I started bringing it to their attention and of course they say they aren't racist. My mom was dating a black man for years and oh that was some drama when she finally told them. I was also advised not to tell my grandparents of my DNA test results that showed there was African ancestry in there. I knew it all along being that the other half of my family is from Puerto Rico and my bio grandfather was a black PR.