My childhood lacked a lot on many fronts but one area that seemed to be reasonably addressed was race and racism. I remember having conversations with my mom about racism from early childhood. I'd come home from school after teachers separated a group of kids along racial lines for some reason. I can't remember why they did it but I remember being upset at being separated from my friend. I'm not sure why but it's one subject that we can have decent conversations around so we have through the years. We talked about slavery, lynching, the Civil Rights Movement but nothing about how these influence the US today and what that means. It was definitely seen as more 'in the past.'
Moving to CO was a big change for me. We moved from a really poor area to a decently affluent suburb because of the man my mom married. I immediately noticed the overt and subtle racist language, the good/bad neighborhoods, the reinforcement of the systems designed to keep black and brown people down. Anyone who wasn't white was seen as inferior. The only POC I saw there were laborers. There was one black family at my high school. If anyone saw a POC not working, they were definitely treated as suspicious and to be feared.
I think white women like being the victim because they want to be saved by their knight in shining armor. Being the pretty, pure princess is *the* life goal though most won't admit it. White women will do anything and everything to keep up the victimhood and targeting black people is our society's accepted perpetrator. #Mommabear and #girlboss are just the newest iteration of white women maintaining power and dominance and "following your gut" keeps us as victims and heroines. A good percentage of the women I know who do this are bored and angry. Bored because being a SAHM isn't what we thought it would be and angry because being the pretty princess means shit when you're driving a minivan and navigating the politics of the PTA? #adultingishard is another phrase that means "we were raised that being white was enough and turns out it's not." I pull this shit too sometimes. I'm not throwing stones at my glass house.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on May 14, 2018 16:39:59 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this all afternoon.
My upbringing was probably a bit atypical for my small, white town in that my family is actually somewhat diverse. My uncle (now deceased) was black, my cousin is biracial, his wife (they've been together since they were 14) is Latina, another uncle is Jewish, said uncle lives in Mexico and his son (adopted) is Mexican...
That's not to literally list an inventory of my family but to segue into that I was definitely raised to be colorblind, but it focused on actions rather than thoughts. I had always thought that was largely because we're Minnesotan and passive aggressive is our first language, but I'm starting to wonder now after reading other responses. Like, at Christmas, we always included the Jewish uncle in everything. He always seemed to love Christmas, so I didn't think twice about it, but as I got older, I wondered if anyone asked him if he wanted to be included in the gift exchange or the family going-to-church, or if there was anything we could've done to incorporate some of his family's Hanukkah traditions. I asked about it when I was in college, and got a bunch of blank stares. Anyway, it was always "treat all people the same," "be nice to everyone," etc. Nothing about not believing yourself better or not being afraid, etc.
I remember one instance when my uncle died. I was fairly young. His funeral was at a black church in north Minneapolis. Then we left and my dad was afraid to stop at stoplights too long. At like 2 pm on a Thursday. So I remember growing up with the idea that north Minneapolis is scary because if my dad thought it was scary, it must really be because my dad isn't afraid of anything. And I held that thought for several years after moving here... Now, living here, I know what neighborhood we were actually in and it's... not a bad neighborhood. The only thing I can think why he'd think that is that it's a predominantly black neighborhood. My dad would never ever say that the race of the people out and about we're why he booked it out of the church and back to my aunt's house as fast as he could.
ETA: My Jewish uncle is white, so its not the perfect example, but my town also severly lacked religious diversity (for example, there was a persistent rumor that the Unitarian Church was a cult) so it sticks out in my mind in the colorblind upbringing.
My childhood lacked a lot on many fronts but one area that seemed to be reasonably addressed was race and racism. I remember having conversations with my mom about racism from early childhood. I'd come home from school after teachers separated a group of kids along racial lines for some reason. I can't remember why they did it but I remember being upset at being separated from my friend. I'm not sure why but it's one subject that we can have decent conversations around so we have through the years. We talked about slavery, lynching, the Civil Rights Movement but nothing about how these influence the US today and what that means. It was definitely seen as more 'in the past.'
Moving to CO was a big change for me. We moved from a really poor area to a decently affluent suburb because of the man my mom married. I immediately noticed the overt and subtle racist language, the good/bad neighborhoods, the reinforcement of the systems designed to keep black and brown people down. Anyone who wasn't white was seen as inferior. The only POC I saw there were laborers. There was one black family at my high school. If anyone saw a POC not working, they were definitely treated as suspicious and to be feared.
I think white women like being the victim because they want to be saved by their knight in shining armor. Being the pretty, pure princess is *the* life goal though most won't admit it. White women will do anything and everything to keep up the victimhood and targeting black people is our society's accepted perpetrator. #Mommabear and #girlboss are just the newest iteration of white women maintaining power and dominance and "following your gut" keeps us as victims and heroines. A good percentage of the women I know who do this are bored and angry. Bored because being a SAHM isn't what we thought it would be and angry because being the pretty princess means shit when you're driving a minivan and navigating the politics of the PTA? #adultingishard is another phrase that means "we were raised that being white was enough and turns out it's not." I pull this shit too sometimes. I'm not throwing stones at my glass house.
Post by bernsteincat on May 14, 2018 16:55:40 GMT -5
I’ve found myself at times being incredibly thankful and feeling mighty superior to other people around me because of how I was brought up. I was raised in a small town in WKY that had a great amount of black/white diversity. All of my schools were 40-50% minority, so I had lots of black friends growing up. My parents shut down overtly racist verbiage—“innocent” names or “innocent” jokes that I would pick up at school—with a quickness. Outward racism was NOT tolerated. My dad was raised in that town as well, and his funeral visitation was a mixture of of black and white people, which made a very visual impact on people that were not from that area. My husband did not grow up that way, we do not live in a diverse area, and so sometimes I feel like that makes me more “woke”.
But that’s bullshit, because though overt racism was not in my childhood, subtle racism and white privilege were all over it. Coded language about good schools and neighborhoods. Our church was/is 99.9% white (one black man). My activities outside of school were full of white kids like me. My husband, mother, sister and I do talk about this stuff, so i’m Happy to know that they are not ignorant, and we do not shy away from holding each other accountable, but I know we do not do much actively to hold other people accountable. That weighs on me. So I will agree with the poster above by saying I was not raised to be fearful of different people or scenarios. I also wasn’t really raised to think I deserved anything by virtue of my race or gender. But I do recognize I was raised to be comfortable, complacent, and to not rock the boat. Very much “We don’t act like that.” “We don’t think or talk that way.” And that’s just as bad or worse because it’s easy to ignore and does nothing to holder other white people accountable.
I think living in one place most of your life might contribute. We moved every 3-4 years while I was growing up, and one place was Georgia. I went to a city school, then a rural school, and the diversity was a given.
Then we moved to Colorado and I recall wondering why there were hardly any black folks. I mean zero, unless you went into the more industrial or lower income areas. That was probably my very first awakening to systemic racism, though back then I would never have known that's what it was or how deeply it ran.
I mean, look at our board now. We know our neighborhoods are segregated, we know we can make micro changes through our real estate and school choices... but we fail by going for the location and "good schools."
So, I was raised by parents who initially believed that being colorblind was the key. Their parents, my grandparents, were all overtly racist in varies degrees of crudeness. My parents moved away from them to DC for job reasons allegedly, but my mom said they also just wanted to get away from them. Not because of their racism, but it had the advantage for me of seeing my extended family's comments and attitudes in a larger context.
From my grandparents and extended family I heard everything from "they're so clean", said with surprise by my grandmother talking about a black family that moved in on her street to my grandfather telling me that Janet Jackson was "[slur] music" and I should destroy my tape. The general message was that white people were right and good and entitled to everything by virtue of our intrinsic worth and everyone else was not. They were able to buy houses because hard work and bootstraps and "those people" weren't because they didn't care to succeed. A nonwhite person--and particularly a black person--got the job/role in the play/spot in college/whatever because of affirmative action only. Black people steal because they want the easy way out and no one is an easier mark than a white woman.
As a little kid I heard NOTHING about race from my parents, except a few times when my extended family said something especially shitty my mom or dad would pull me aside and say "don't listen to X" but without explaining why. That changed some as I got older. My mom got more vocal with her parents and with us kids as she (a person from NYC) made her first nonwhite friends as an adult and, to be honest, after she almost died from sepsis and I think lost many of her fucks to give when it came to her family. Everything she said was dismissed as "ivory tower bullshit" and anything my dad said was because he was "brainwashed by DC."
It was confusing to reconcile the parts of my grandparents that I loved with the parts I didn't (including their racism) and until I was far too old I didn't have frank conversations with my extended family about these issues. As a result, many of them don't like me anymore. And for far too long after that I didn't examine how deep some of the things I was taught and saw went not just in my psyche but in how the world works (things like "good schools", etc.). I'm still working on all of it.
Can ya'll talk about specific examples of "fear the world around you?"
Like, I know I'm cognizant of odd behavior or someone following me, but not the random guy sitting next to the store. I look at him and think - he's just chilling - not OMG LOITERING! CALL THE COPS.
I don't know that I was ever taught to "fear" the world around me, but I was definitely taught to be aware of certain behaviors, certain clothing, certain slang.
When I was in middle school, we had a number of known gang members at our school. It was the mid-80s. We all knew red and blue were gang colors. My mom worked for a local social services org that tried to keep kids out of the juvenile court system by providing alternatives like mentoring and counseling. Working at this agency, she became very aware of some of the stereotypical behaviors, slang, clothing of the local gang members and she would share with me what she learned. I know there were times when I'd go to certain places in town (honestly - the local mall and one side of the pier here which was a known gang hangout as it was considered "neutral" territory), and I would be sure I was not wearing red or blue because I didn't want to be somehow associated with one of these gangs. If someone looked like a gang member, I'd generally steer clear. In my case, it wasn't about black or hispanic, it was about the gangs. I was scared of them. Part of my fear also was because a good friend of mine had a brother in one of the gangs and was eventually killed. So in that case, it was nothing that my parents said or taught, but more what I saw their family go through.
ETA: The gangs I am referring to were mostly Hispanic, not Black. But many of my closest friends were also Hispanic, so it wasn't that I feared them because they were Hispanic. It was more about behaviors and clothing and things that were said. I hope that makes sense.
Post by seeyalater52 on May 14, 2018 18:11:12 GMT -5
I’ve been reading this thread and thinking about these questions all day. I don’t know what exactly the fuck our problem is (white women) with people of color just trying to live their lives.
Admittedly I lived in an extreme bubble when it came to race growing up. I lived in a very, very white rural area pretty far from any town where there were people of color living. There were something like 3 students of color at my high school, and only 1 of them went to school with me since elementary. I don’t remember anyone being overly racist, but race was just completely, 100% absent from any and all acknowdgement whatsoever. It has taken me a loooong time to even begin to process what I missed when it comes to understanding race and racism and whiteness and I’m sure that will never end. I can tell you I was an absolute mess of cluelessness when I got to (a very diverse) college at 17 after such little exposure to the rest of the world.
I definitely think some of it has to do with white woman entitlement. White women tend to think we “belong” and that others are out of place, or scary, or frightening in some way. Anyone who is read as not belonging is out to get us. It’s this subconscious screening of our surroundings that gets justified and normalized by a heightened focus on gender-based violence but is really about upholding white supremacy and getting your way by using the police as a mechanism for enforcing your boundaries and preferences.
It can’t end until all of us are more concerned with dismantling white supremacy than about maintaining our own comfort and privilege. It’s the kind of goal that is much easier to say than it is to actually attempt to do.
Post by somersault72 on May 14, 2018 18:34:56 GMT -5
I think most of it is fear, which is funny to me since I feel like we should be the least fearful of all races. I don't know what we're afraid of exactly, but obviously people are afraid with all these asinine calls made to the police. We're also raised quite differently. Cops are good guys, they're there to help is what I was always taught. I remember when Timothy Thomas was shot, I was a senior in high school. I could not for the life of me figure out why his mother had taught him to run from police--that seemed like terrible advice. It was only as I've grown older that I realized that cops don't treat everyone the same and they're not all good guys there to help. My biggest flaw in all this is I don't "see something, say something" about anything. I need to learn to speak up when I do see an injustice of any kind. And yes I know that sentence is dripping with white privilege. 😔
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this today and reflecting on how I was raised and how I am now.
Growing up, we were mostly in a white, small New England town. There were 155 people in my graduating class and one of them was Vietnamese, adopted as a baby. Everyone else was white. The small city 5 miles down the road was much more diverse. There was a stark contrast between our "safe" town and the "sketchy" urban area.
Even at that, as a child race was never really talked about in my family. The lesson we got was basically "don't hate people," but I had no idea there was anything other than KKK-style racism. I do recall my best friend mentioning she didn't watch Cosby Show because her stepdad didn't like "black humor." I had no idea what it meant.
I went to college in Arkansas, where my freshman roommates were talking one day about interracial dating (my roommate's grandmother had said something negative about a couple they'd seen). My suitemate said, "I'm not racist but I think everyone should stick with their own kind."
It wasn't until grad school that I was confronted, gobsmacked really, with the fact of institutional racism, microaggressions and privilege.
Until that point, I realize now I had unconsciously equated "black" with different, and therefore either irrelevant or unsafe, depending on the situation.
As an aside, I ended up including "othering" as part of my dissertation, which was an analysis of second-grade reading curriculum. In my analysis, I demonstrated that the curriculum imparted a subtle expectation of what was "normal" and what was the "other." Students are taught early on that the white, middle class experience is normal.
That's my personal experience. What I've observed aligns with what I learned in my dissertation research: the white, middle class experience is considered to be normal. Anything that deviates from the norm is to be questioned, feared and fought. It goes back to preservation of privilege.
Post by picksthemusic on May 14, 2018 20:32:44 GMT -5
I think a lot of it is trying to uphold status in a perceived society, and to see yourself as better. And to show power; to put someone whom you think is inferior in their place.
Edited because I realize my upbringing does not matter. The fact is that we white people/white women are assholes and we need to do better.
I know I still have personal biases that I am working to overcome, and I'm reading and educating myself about all the history that was glossed over or left out completely from history books in school.
Post by lissaholly on May 14, 2018 20:40:22 GMT -5
I have been thinking about this all day. I was having trouble articulating my thoughts on it. These white women aren’t calling the police because they are scared, they are calling the police because they think that black people are most likely criminals. They don’t believe that systemic racism exists. They think black people are just more likely to engage in criminal activity. When push comes to shove, though, they blame it on their gut, or suspicious behavior because they can’t admit it has to do with racism, they just *know*
This is shy these white women make a point in calling the police, talk calming to the police and wait around for them to come. They are some vigilante justice crusaders saving their community from black crime.
Post by mrs.jacinthe on May 14, 2018 20:45:25 GMT -5
NitaX, to answer your question with my upbringing/experience only, which is a little different from being afraid of violence, per se: I was raised fundamental conservative baptist. That's about as overtly racist as you can go and not wear a white hood (although I'm sure there's a bit of overlap in that group). Obviously with that upbringing, there was *plenty* to fear in the world around me. Specifically as regards the question, though - I think the fear that was/is trained into conservative children, other than the "us" versus "them" mentality, is that you can't trust someone who doesn't roll over and submit when they're told to. My dad actually used the phrase "rabble-rouser" referring to MLK. (I'm ashamed to admit that. I really loved the man, and it hurts to remember that he was unapologetically and unashamedly racist.) Additionally, black people have such a zest and a love of life - y'all CELEBRATE and are loud. Honestly and truly, as a child, I was afraid of the black women in the grocery store because they weren't soft-spoken, like all the white women I was exposed to at church. You aren't afraid to confront people who are making a fool of themselves - call out the dumb ones, etc. I think this plays into white women's need to feel superior at all times and makes them anxious that they're not. I think this discomfort means that white people, women especially, feel like they need to get the upper hand and take charge before y'all get a chance to defend yourselves.
I hope that makes even a little sense. It does in my head, but I'm exhausted and rambling.
My grandparents were racist. They said racist things. They would lock the doors in predominantly black neighborhoods for no other reason. I remember my grandmother saying the Cosby show wasn’t realistic because there would never be a black doctor and black lawyer. My grandmother told us she watched a guy on local broadcasting so math and in a surprised voice say he was really smart and black. I heard things about certain names being black names.
I lived with my grandparents my whole childhood and I think my mom’s response/counter was to not see race. That really felt like the “gold standard” of not being racist. But of course, that is not a gold standard at all.
So, growing up my grandparents regularly said racist things and responded in racist ways and my mom tried to counter with we don’t see race.
Post by cookiemdough on May 14, 2018 22:02:55 GMT -5
So what will it take for people to break the cycle? How is it that awareness is higher yet actions the same? Justifications are different but outcomes are the same.
Post by NewOrleans on May 14, 2018 22:13:25 GMT -5
I think suburban communities are very segregated so majority America continues to be the majority in their homes.
Cultural awareness in school is made "cute" so it becomes perfunctory, not ongoing and consistent. It becomes something "special" and "extra." Same with Black, Hispanic, etc History Month. I'd be willing to bet there are teachers or parents who even resent it as just another thing they have to do / another initiative, if their schools do it at all. Similarly, general education classes make people feel put-upon as it is (spending $ to take classes not relevant to my major and all that), so requiring courses in black lit or history just make the majority feel more resentful.
Whiteness has been the default norm for so long that they have simply become accustomed to seeing the world as a fixed pie, and if you have to give / do something (gen ed class, whatever), it diminishes your piece of the pie.
I do think privilege is hard for most white people to understand because most of us are not "privileged" in the financial sense. When most white people hear privilege, they think wealth or being given things. I would have scoffed at it in my younger days because I had a rough youth including poverty and abuse from my mother. But by the time I heard of white privilege, I guess I had seen and read enough for it to make perfect sense that it existed as a form of racism.
Another issue is the working definition of racism most people hold. I think most white people view racism as active hatred of POC. In truth, I believe that most people who are racist do not actively hate them. They thus think they are not racists because they don't realize they are participating in a system that is racist in and of itself. People don't know that racism is a system and not just a feeling. Like, school funding-- comes from property taxes-- but home ownership is racist because of lending and laws... and high property taxes in some places that preclude non white people from living there, and so the system goes and goes.
Finally, I think it is... confusing? for white people that there are things for black people that they're not meant to have (frats or HBCUs or whatnot). Maybe white people view these things as self-segregation and think they're following the lead of black people if they just carry on with their own segregated spaces and lifestyles. If you don't understand that there is a different experience being lived by black Americans, you don't understand why a black sorority or college or haircare line or whatever might need to exist. Simultaneously, like I said, white majorities don't want to take black or non-Western lit/history classes, but they view it as self-segregation if POC do gather in such spaces. And their question is "why do they GET those things", not why do they NEED those things.
school-wise, the melting pot history of immigration taught and the American Dream as a theme are just really teaching assimilation and meritocracy as cultural mythos. These are ingrained and entrenched in the system. I think what needs to happen is that school boards and leaders need to de-colonize heavily. *Everything* needs to be taught from a cultural studies /cultural criticism standpoint. They need to say "this is the curriculum, and we're not accepting pushback" when the white parents come for them. Yes, we are reading Malcolm X and talking about black self defense / gun ownership . Yes, we are reading a book about Claudette Colvin, and discussing in 6th grade how her pregnancy prevented her from being the face of the bus boycott. Yes, we are discussing the inter-weaving of slavery with capitalism and teaching that it was "states' rights" TO OWN SLAVES that led to the Civil War. Yes, we are debating the Confederate Flag. Yes, we are teaching Christopher Colombus was genocidal. Yes, we are teaching using community as curriculum. I think if schools teach this way and resist white resistance, there is a chance, because mayyyyyybe the benevolent racists won't work to deprogram these messages at home. All this presupposes school commitment to deconstructing the system in the first place, of course.
I have no comments about the fearing the world thing because I can't wrap my head around it. I don't think the people we've seen over the past week with the police are afraid of anything- I think they just want to fuck with people. But if there is fear sown? It comes from guns, IMO. Which exist in their current form to feed toxic masculinity and white power. Because all the systems are working together.
As I read some of these responses, I feel like I missed out on a lot of the "typical" white upbringing. Like my mind has never been able to grasp Italian food being considered ethnic because it's just so basic/such a staple in my mind. Clearly, I'm part Italian, but it was so prevalent where I grew up I can't imagine people not having it. It's ubiquitous to me. I was lucky to grow up with a diverse friend group; we used to joke that we looked like a Benetton ad. My two best friends are women of color. I think both are from families of higher socioeconomic status than my parents. I was never aware of my parents or grandparents ever having any problems with my friends not being white.
My parents didn't do a good job talking to me about race at all. I think they took the colorblind approach. The first time I became aware of there being differences between me and my friends was when one of my friends told me she couldn't come over to my house anymore because I lived in a white neighborhood and she lived in a black neighborhood. I didn't get it. I told my parents about it and all they did was say it wasn't true because my friend lived across the street from our elementary school. When we moved it became clear why my friend was uncomfortable. Our neighbors were upset that my parents sold the house to an African American family. It ruined my opinion of them. Then the city we moved to was so incredibly whitewashed.
I think my parents tried to raise me seeing diversity and around a wide range of individuals without being overt about it. I know my father was happy with the education I got in college about a wide variety of isms. I wish there had been more open discussions. I sometimes wonder if that's why I wasn't raised visiting some of my family as much because I think many of them are racist, at least some overtly.
I think things we see in the media affect us regardless of how we were raised, though. The stereotypes of different men as being only interested in sex (especially with white blonde women) or not being very sexual. It's insidious. I've tried to actively combat that, including calling it out with people I know. But there's still the tendency to categorize and stereotype. I'm glad I got called out for including people's race/ethnicity when describing them if it's not relevant. It's a reflexive othering that I think we learn. Where, I'm not sure.
Growing up near NYC I know there was a lot of crime shown on the news and talked about that showed people of color as the perpetrators. I think that's why many people were shocked that my family and I went into NYC. My best friend didn't go until my mom and I took her in the early to mid 90s. I think that plays a part in the fear white women develop towards men of color. We should be more afraid of white men, but this is indoctrinated into us starting so young in a variety of ways. I'm still trying to unpack what I may have learned and am frequently trying to check my privilege. I know it's a work in progress. I'm sure I have blind spots I'm not aware of still.
I’ve been reading this thread and thinking about these questions all day. I don’t know what exactly the fuck our problem is (white women) with people of color just trying to live their lives.
Admittedly I lived in an extreme bubble when it came to race growing up. I lived in a very, very white rural area pretty far from any town where there were people of color living. There were something like 3 students of color at my high school, and only 1 of them went to school with me since elementary. I don’t remember anyone being overly racist, but race was just completely, 100% absent from any and all acknowdgement whatsoever. It has taken me a loooong time to even begin to process what I missed when it comes to understanding race and racism and whiteness and I’m sure that will never end. I can tell you I was an absolute mess of cluelessness when I got to (a very diverse) college at 17 after such little exposure to the rest of the world...
This was similar to my background - only we mostly had bias against NA that was pretty obvious in our town. My friends who are NA were often talking about the bias in growing up. Both my parents were public teachers, and specifically taught us about racism, but had a very color-blind focus - from the aspect that everyone was equal now. They had not ever lived out of the state and had educated liberal parents on one side (university prof) and the polite, Catholic family on the other, so I’m sure there is more to umpack here. My parents raised us girls to never accept second to any boy in the room and that we always had to work twice as hard for half as much. (sound familiar?)
I left MT the first time with this all are equal/color-blind view, and the idea that women and black people still had to work harder than white men, but that hard work would overcome the lingering inequalities. This was clearly naive when I got to college in Chicago.
But I did not grow up with fears - really any unhealthy or healthy fears. I trusted anyone and everyone and wandered other states and cities with that entitlement that I would be accepted anywhere. It’s different racism than using 911 or current power to enforce rules, but it still has racist roots.
So what will it take for people to break the cycle? How is it that awareness is higher yet actions the same? Justifications are different but outcomes are the same.
I honestly believe that most people won't change their core beliefs until someone they absolutely love is significantly impacted by an injustice. We are a people of anecdotes. That is how our cognitive processing works - to make sense of the word we categorize constantly. What's good, what's bad? What's safe, what's dangerous? What is moral, what is immoral, etc. Stereotypes and prejudice are part of categorizing and putting people/characteristics in boxes so you can more efficiently react to them the next time. Anecdotes that feed the story only help solidify the belief. It is more time consuming to evaluate each individual on their merits - it takes work. and we are lazy. Especially if we have the privilege of circumstances, where if there were any societal changes we might not be as privileged.
My parents see themselves as liberal educational elites, but my mother says some racist things. She’s also super judgmental and passive-aggressive, so she judges everyone, but some of it is definitely her bias coming out, though she’s not aware of it. The examples I’ve been able to come up with: - Growing up, we drove through a low-income, primarily black neighborhood en route to my grandmother’s, and there was always a fuss made about ensuring the car doors were locked. - There were only a few black kids in my grade, and my mother made remarks about how people would always have trouble pronouncing one of the girls’ name. - Not black specifically, but when I married a light brown middle easterner, she joked about him being a terrorist. For the entire seven years we were married.
Even thogh I live in the “sketchy” immigrant (and second generation) neighborhood now (which is nowhere near as dangerous as the locals believe), when I’m back home I still instinctively check the locks in that one area. The neighborhood is now upper middle class, and most of the dilapidated buildings have been restored or rebuilt, but those years of subtle influence still affect me in some subconscious way.
ETA - My mother was so entrenched in her “I don’t see color” stance that she used to crow about how she ticks “Native American” on forms, because she’s a native born citizen, and race is irrelevant anyway. Even when I was in elementary school that white nonsense made me groan. But it does underscore how much we were taught that colorblindness was the solution, and actual issues were glossed over.
Post by imobviouslystaying on May 15, 2018 5:47:15 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread because the first few responses pissed me clean the fuck off.
"Don't see or interact with a lot of black folks" is a cop out and a lie.
That Starbucks was in Philly, wasn't it? Tell me there aren't many black folks in Philly and we gon fight. Tell me that little white barista in Starbucks rarely sees black folks and we're going to fight.
The problem is white folks still have us in a place. Society, media, journalism, virtually every aspect of life reinforces preconceived notions of who we are, what we do, how we live. It doesn't help that there's also a pervasive idea that we're sucking up resources,taking advantage, or otherwise using and disturbing white people shit like tax dollars, schools, and money.
Put all that together along with a long standing history of law enforcement coming into existence primarily to check black folks's papers and here we are, white folks calling the cops to essentially check papers and since there are no papers to check, we get arrested because you can't prove a negative.
White folks really believe it's rare that we exist equally alongside them so they need the cops to prove that black man they see in the park isn't a shady interloper.
So what will it take for people to break the cycle? How is it that awareness is higher yet actions the same? Justifications are different but outcomes are the same.
I have no idea. I feel like white supremacy is up there with climate change in that while individual people are making changes and doing better, it's such a drop in the bucket in terms of overall impact that I do not see anything actually changing because the vast majority can't or won't even see how they contribute, let alone make changes.
Eta also add in the structural/policy/government side of things, where we'd need really sweeping change and instead we get lip service.
So what will it take for people to break the cycle? How is it that awareness is higher yet actions the same? Justifications are different but outcomes are the same.
I have no idea. I feel like white supremacy is up there with climate change in that while individual people are making changes and doing better, it's such a drop in the bucket in terms of overall impact that I do not see anything actually changing because the vast majority can't or won't even see how they contribute, let alone make changes.
Eta also add in the structural/policy/government side of things, where we'd need really sweeping change and instead we get lip service.
You are probably right. I went back to the Duke Ellington discussion on DCUM and now it has taken a turn that the kids were also at fault, they had to know what their parents were up to and how no college will touch them for being cheaters and the whole lot of them are “crooks” and they hope the feds look into the boundary scandal. This is just...illogical. People want the feds to look into whether parents paid tuition at one performing arts high school? Like who types that and thinks “omg I am so right”. Except people are agreeing.
So what will it take for people to break the cycle? How is it that awareness is higher yet actions the same? Justifications are different but outcomes are the same.
I've been thinking a lot about this both in relation to this post and what I need to be doing to raise my own children differently. I think the awareness of the dangers and bull of stereotypes is different/higher, but I think the sense of white as "normal" and white as deserving and entitled also needs to be attacked and displaced. Without the later, the former only goes so far
Like, I don't think that woman calling about the cookout was scared. I think she thinks she's owed a world where everything is as she would like it, and down deep that means black people only get to do what she wants, where she wants, when she wants.
Post by sugarglider on May 15, 2018 6:55:12 GMT -5
When I was in law school, I took a seminar on sexual violence, and I wrote my paper on how sexual offender registry notification systems were used to terrorize women. The reason is that they feed into a false narrative that stranger attacks are common.
As a society, women are constantly taught that when they are raped or attacked, it is their fault. What they’re wearing, whether they failed to carry mace or learn self defense. When I was a teenager, I was constantly given (an then gave) self-preservation tips, such as to hold my keys in my fist when I walked to my car, or to check under my car from a distance before getting in.
I grew up in a town that was predominantly white (like, 90% white; 8% black), and my dad was a career prosecutor. So I didn’t connect these safety tips with any particular race because I knew most of the criminals were white. But I did connect it with poverty. So, I have had to make an active effort to challenge the patterns I saw and what they mean from a bigger picture.
I have called 9-1-1, but never for fear of my own safety, and all but one time it was because someone was injured or in the act of being injured (once when a woman fell off a bus and hurt her ankle, once when a sleeping homeless person was robbed on the subway, and once when two young women were engaged in a fist fight on the sidewalk—though, the police showed up or that one before I could hit the second “1” on my phone). I did so because I was aware of the bystander effect. It was in NY 8-15 years ago, and I legitimately don’t remember the races of anyone involved. I do remember with the homeless man, that a diverse group of NYers from various walks of life took various action to look out for the sleeping man, because that particular scene warmed my heart.
I think right now I’m very aware of media messaging. And I think the dichotomy is dangerous. You have to be either pro black people or pro law enforcement. That’s why the Russian bots posed as left protestors, too, to further the dichotomy. It’s why for the past several years, I’ve had the gut reaction to blue line folks that they’re racist. Which, yes, many/most of them are. But a week or two ago, I learned a police officer in my hometown was killed in the line of duty. And my heart broke. He was my age, with kids. He was apprehending a white homicide suspect, so race wasn’t part of that specific story. But I also felt conflicted being heartbroken over this when I am also critical of police abuses. And it’s silly for me to be conflicted because I know this dichotomy is media created. I can be heartbroken for him and heartbroken for Philandro Castile and recognize the differences in those situations. But the problem is we exist in sound bites and alliances. So most people aren’t engaging critically in these conversations at all, let alone with people they disagree with. Myself included.
I have no idea. I feel like white supremacy is up there with climate change in that while individual people are making changes and doing better, it's such a drop in the bucket in terms of overall impact that I do not see anything actually changing because the vast majority can't or won't even see how they contribute, let alone make changes.
Eta also add in the structural/policy/government side of things, where we'd need really sweeping change and instead we get lip service.
You are probably right. I went back to the Duke Ellington discussion on DCUM and now it has taken a turn that the kids were also at fault, they had to know what their parents were up to and how no college will touch them for being cheaters and the whole lot of them are “crooks” and they hope the feds look into the boundary scandal. This is just...illogical. People want the feds to look into whether parents paid tuition at one performing arts high school? Like who types that and thinks “omg I am so right”. Except people are agreeing.
I need to remember to stay away from there.
Nothing good ever comes out of DCUM. I also need to remind myself to stay out of there. The school boards are exhausting.
I agree with the poster who said intense work needs to be done in the home with our kids.
Anecdote warning DD came home yesterday telling me how the kids were singing songs from Hamilton on the bus. One kid said that it is disrespectful to take such a respected historical figure and tell his story with rap lyrics. DD told me she told him he was ridiculous; it is simply telling the story in a modern form of music and art. I paused, considering that was a great response and could I leave it alone. I decided it couldn’t be left there. I asked her, “was the kid that said that white?” She said yes. So I said, “ask him why he thinks telling the story with rap is disrespectful. Did his parents say that or is it his opinion? What about rap is disrespectful?” I went on to tell her that it is highly likely that he heard that from his parents and it is probably a racist comment because rap is associated with Black people. If telling a story using a musical medium that is frequently associated with Black artists is disrespectful then the person probably doesn’t want Black peoplesoft telling the story and that is racist. I told her it might not be the case, but she should question what is behind that statement.
I am not doing my kid favors in the short term because she isn’t going to make friends as easily as if she would go along and get along. But someone has to do it. And if she is a true friend to her lifelong bestie she needs to be one of the folks willing to challenge others’ implicit bias.
Post by imobviouslystaying on May 15, 2018 7:21:56 GMT -5
Please note that we aren't hearing about white folks calling the po po on janitors, landscapers, the ups man, black folks in uniforms, or any other sort of workers.
It's the perception of where black folks belong and how they belong there.
Please note that we aren't hearing about white folks calling the po po on janitors, landscapers, the ups man, black folks in uniforms, or any other sort of workers.
It's the perception of where black folks belong and how they belong there.
Nothing but a modern day pass system.
you are absolutely right.
It seems fairly obvious that white people are reacting to a fear of a power shift when a Black man became president.
Observed comments that support this: Since Obama was elected, Black people are walking around like they own the place
Obama is not the first Black President. He is half white. Why doesn’t he ever claim his whiteness since he is just as white as he is Black?
Race relations were fine until Obama started stirring things up with his rhetoric about continued injustices. He never should have injected himself in the Trayvon Martin and Ferguson issues.
White people feel threatened. We may not be in charge of manifesting our own destiny for much longer. What the fuck will we do when we are the minority?
So what will it take for people to break the cycle? How is it that awareness is higher yet actions the same? Justifications are different but outcomes are the same.
I honestly don't know. I think racism will always exist in some capacity but the white supremacy and our actions as a nation need to change. I think the beginning steps are listening to PoC, speaking openly with our children about racism and speaking up when we see PoC being targeted. White people as a whole need to break past their uncomfortable-ness and start embracing PoC, building relationships, supporting and empowering them and standing up/collecting other white people.