Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
Honestly, I don’t know how to bridge the gap.
I’ll use church as an example. I go to a church whose congregation is almost 100% white. I have visited black churches, and I was uncomfortable there because the service was so different from what I was used to. I’m guessing that a lot of black people feel the same about my white church, and so we stay segregated.
So then, you think the next step is to try to “de-white” the white church, so that POC feel more comfortable joining us. But that’s problematic, because you don’t want white people stepping in with what they think POC would like to see in a church, so then you ask your 2 POC for their ideas – but then, isn’t that tokenizing them?
And then to go back to my first paragraph – I said I was uncomfortable at the black church because the service was so different. Well, the answer to that is to keep going, and get comfortable with the service. But then I have the question of, “Do they even want me here?” I have a few black acquaintances through facebook who have been very clear in the past about how white people aren’t needed/wanted/appreciated in their spaces. So if I were to go back to that church, and keep attending, would I just be seen as an interloper? I guess it’s up to me to just keep attending and earn people’s trust?
Can I be honest here and say - church is not where you are going to bridge this gap? I know there are a number of diverse churches in Memphis. I'm not interested in going. Why? Because church = home to me. My church is the place where I walk in the door and can still be me. If I'm in a church with a lot of white folks, I can't be me. I can't worship like I want. I can't cry. I can't jump up and say "YOU BETTA PREACH THAT PASTOR!" Sis. Wright is not bringing a caramel cake that makes you slap yo' mamma for the church picnic.
Every time I see black folks in churches like Bellevue Baptist - I wonder - how badly are you trying to assimilate. Plus, y'all not finna stand up to Trump in the pulpit, so Imma pass on that.
Also, your God ain't my God. My God is the God of the oppressed. My God is the same God that will keep us through BLM just like he did slavery, CRM and lynching. My God resides in an old Negro Spiritual or will move me to break down when I hear the first lines of ... "I've got so much to thank God for ... " and builds into "FOR EVERY MOUNTAIN. YOU BROUGHT ME OVER."
So, let's stop with trying to fix it in church. Because you still drive to a place of worship and you go back home to a segregated community. Let's start with befriending the black folks who move in your neighborhood first.
Can ya'll talk about specific examples of "fear the world around you?"
Like, I know I'm cognizant of odd behavior or someone following me, but not the random guy sitting next to the store. I look at him and think - he's just chilling - not OMG LOITERING! CALL THE COPS.
I have quickly looked at some of the previous responses and I agree with many, but here is are my experiences with my family. (It's also taken me about 2 hours to respond between meetings so the conversation could have moved on long ago).
I lived in a blue collar neighborhood 0.5 mile north of Detroit. I was in elementary school from 1979-1985. During that time, the school I attend became more diverse but was still 95-99% white when I left. My parents my brother and I moved to suburban Houston in 1985, where I found the schools to be much more diverse, but still primarily white.
In my experience, there were many racist comments made that created an unspoken "known" about black people (I originally typed assumption here, but in my family these were treated as facts, not beliefs). The comments from previous posters about being a "princess" are interesting. I never thought of it that way, but I do think one of the fears that many female family members had was being raped by a black man (evidenced by comments such as a woman should not go to Detroit without a man for fear of being raped).
Interactions with black people were to be limited to work and some functions that were work related (the occasional funeral and less often wedding) and sporting events. For example, my dad and uncle would whoop it up with whoever was sitting near-by at a Tigers game, but once we were in the car and driving home, I'm sure the n-word was dropped on more than one occasion.
To answer your question specifically Nita, some things I heard growing up:
- Black people are dangerous and Detroit is dangerous because all of the white people have been "run out" as evidenced by higher crime rates, burnt out buildings/houses, murders on the news every night.
- Don't go into neighborhoods that are "black" because they are dangerous. E.g. I moved back to suburban Detroit in my mid-20's. I was going to meet a co-worker at her house. My aunt asked if my co-worker was white or black. I asked "why does that matter"? I was told it was because black neighborhoods are more dangerous, but there is nothing wrong with having black friends.
- When I was about 6, we went to a drive-in that we did not typically go to. There was a playground in front of the screen, which I thought was super cool. Before we went to the playground with my mom, my dad "warned" me (I don't remember exactly what he said, just that it was a warning to be careful) because the place was full of (insert racial slur that I had never heard before but I remember it to this day)
- The use of the N-word was not uncommon. I wouldn't say it was used all the time, but if someone had a bad experience with a black person, the N-word was most likely used. While this was not a specific comment about danger, it created a sense of black people being sub-human therefore inherently more dangerous.
- When we moved to Houston and a bigger, more sophisticated school district with "advanced" classes for all subjects, mom asked if there were many black kids in those classes (I honestly can't say if those were just bigoted remarks based on the assumption that black kids would not be in advanced classes, or if she was worried that I would be in classes that were not predominantly white. It was probably some of both.)
- Anecdotes about specific family members who had violent encounters with people who were black, which justified all the racism. More specifically, these were people from 2 different generations who lived in 2 different states, but I heard about them, so I'm sure most of my same-generation family did as well.
- Just before we moved to Texas, the Guardian Angels started popped up in our neighborhood. I'd see them walking in a group in strip malls with their red berets. Someone who lived a block away even joined them. I remembered the discussion around one of my family member's tables (I think we were celebrating a birthday). Whether real or perceived, everyone thought there was more violent crime in our neighborhood and that it was moving in from Detroit (see my first point). This is when being north of 8 Mile was no longer good (safe) enough and the new white flight line moved to north of 10 Mile (now it's probably north of 21 Mile Road.)
-As recently as 10 years ago (I remember because I had just had my daughter), there was a news story about someone who lived not far from a family member being bound and beat up. When we were discussing it, someone asked if the person who did it was black. I went off on her and she quickly shut up. (The perpetrator was white and family member tried to back track, but it was just more evidence of racism).
I am not proud at all that I was raised this way. I am just trying to be honest and not sugar coat my answer. I'm sure many white people were brought up in the exact same way.
My mom, dad and some other relatives received honest feedback from me by the time I was in high school and knew I would not just sit back and listen. In some ways I think their eyes were opened a little bit, but I'm not going to lie to myself. I think the change in attitude was small and never complete. When I did call him out for blatant racism, I was just a "little girl" who didn't know how the real world worked.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
To your first question, I'm simply not in the same circles as POC. My field is very white and add in the fact that I commute to a small white rural farm town, my work life is void of meaningful interactions with POC (aside from several Asian co-workers). On the flip side, the time I spend in my graduate studies provides much more interaction with people from all backgrounds. However, to be really honestly, I simply don't have many friends. I'm not making authentic relationships with anyone! This is obviously my own issue - but I've prevented myself from having a robust social network and putting down roots here.
The school thing definitely doesn't hold true for me, and when I hear people talk about it I always push back and ask them to define what 'good' means. This is actually one of the things I've paid a lot of attention to, and why my already small social circle became much smaller in recent years. Having kids seem to cause people to show their racists (and homophobic) assess really quickly.
When my boys, via the school district lottery, got into a pre-K program where they were the only white kids, I didn't think twice about sending them. I know that the sheltered white life I've led is one that they don't have to lead. But I know other people judged me for sending my kids there. Some parents refused their lottery spots because it was a head-start program, and served as a daycare for women getting out of DV situations. It had a perfectly good pre-k program, was close to my wife's work, and maybe most importantly my boys got to see black men and women in positions of authority, caring, and power (along with the students, all the teachers were black or Hispanic). To this day I've yet to have a black teacher/professor. But all three of my kids have already had that experience. It's probably really small, but it's something I can do so they don't live the same experience as me.
To go back to the earlier discussion of fear being about the unknown. Too often we are quick to judge what is different from us, and too many of us don't stop to acknowledge that. For example, at the funeral I attended this weekend I noticed a lot of people in jeans and t-shirts. This seemed really odd to me. I've only been to strict Catholic services and a couple of non-denominational services at funeral homes, and I can't recall ever seeing someone wear jeans and t-shirts to a funeral. Then I began to notice all of the RIP t-shirts and I wanted to learn more about them. I felt really stupid googling "black funeral RIP t-shirts" but I wanted to undo my own immediate reaction to judge. I wanted to understand and counteract the first reaction of - 'who doesn't dress up for a funeral?'
I'm not a woke Becky that is getting it all correct. But clearly the women that are using the police as their own source of power and control should do a bit more introspection about their immediate judgements.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
On the one hand, my parents were pretty great and did not convey racist things to me. On the other hand, they moved me from Boston, which they viewed as problematic for a million reasons, to rural Maine, which is taking the easy way out. I think for a lot of white people, moving to white areas is just that, taking the easy way out of dealing with America's problems. Even if you're liberal and hold all the "right" beliefs, you also internalize that dealing with racism is not your responsibility. Not even realizing that your self-segregation is part of the problem.
Even when H and I intentionally settled in this neighborhood that is fairly diverse for Maine (about 60% white), we put our kids in a program of choice within the school that was traditionally chosen by UMC white families. We did it because we loved the education model; we just didn't think about how our kids' opportunity was segregating them from their black and Latinx schoolmates. It took a new principal and a new superintendent, who wanted to dismantle the program and integrate its opportunities to the whole school -- and honestly, reading this board -- for me to finally have an "aha" moment.
Like others have said, I think segregated living is a huge part of it.
I grew up with a lot of coded language, some of which I didn't understand until I started to read and listen more in adulthood. Colorblindness, good neighborhoods, good schools, etc. All of these can shape perspectives in an almost subliminal way. It's funny, because I actually went to the more diverse high school in my city (maybe 30% black) and had a number of black friends* and it wasn't until I started living in a more segregated environment that I started to understand how pervasive racism is.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
I don't think there are particularly satisfying answers to these questions, unfortunately. White people don't do those things because why would they? People don't generally choose to prioritize other people over their own comfort. A lot of this is just very basic human nature. The people in power are going to try and hold onto it, even if in very subconscious ways.
I'd be surprised if many white people our age were overtly told by parents to fear black people. But it's everywhere in our culture.
was5,Thank you for your candor and sharing. I mean that sincerely because of each story, I just get perplexed that no one will say WHY or how these things come to pass. Your comments are helpful. So, thank you.
The fear of someone, specifically doing better than we whites, when you have been brought up to believe we are somehow entitled to the way it was in the "good old days" when each generation expanded their fortunes from the last generation to the next, seems a commonly held conviction among white people. And whites are completely fearful of losing their power and place in the workforce, to the point of convincing themselves it has nothing to do with race, but rather needing "safe" communities, "better" schools and they "deserve better" jobs.
And when they see/feel it changing and out of their control, they lose their minds and act like that white asshole about a BBQ in a park. Hopefully, we white people are breeding less. That's all I've got.
I was just reading about McCain/White house comments and Kumail Nanjiani said something along the lines of "would have been nice if he'd spoken up more about racism." Someone responded "he adopted a daughter from Bangladesh and he has an African-American daughter-in-law" so he's obviously not racist. That "But I have black friends" (with a dash of White Savior) is the I'm-Not-Racist.
Growing up in California, we didn't have a lot of black families in our town (3 in our entire high school). We "weren't racist" because there weren't any around us to be racist against; we never had to actually BE racist in the KKK methodology of overt racism. So it was safe for us to imagine how not-racist we were. If we *did* happen to know that black person/family "they're just like us. We all bleed red." Daughter was on the cheer team or son played football. The things that made them "pass" in our world was what made us see them as "just another family like us" without stopping to think that once they left our safe little cul-de-sac they had completely different life experiences. "But we all have different life experiences. They're just being 'sensitive.'" My mother would swear to this day that she's not racist, and break down in tears over how not-racist she is and how she raised us to be colorblind. And it gets handed down to the kids from the parents, because I made the same mistake with my own kids and am now trying to unlearn them.
When I moved in Cleveland, we were given the tour of east and west side. West side had few POC ("factory workers, blue collar workers...), and the tour of east-side was "live on this street, not this, turn right not left, live on this side of the street because that side..." and every comment was shadowed by (this side has more/less black people on it...) The east side was "diverse" but you can bet that the folks who craved the diversity didn't hang out with people that weren't like them. They just wanted to wear the badge. And those that lived there despite the diversity did so because they couldn't afford to live elsewhere. Decades of redlining, another "not racist" idea we don't talk about.
I've had neighbors and a friend leave our liberal suburban utopia because liberals aren't racist in the overt fashion but white benevolence and micro-aggressive racism is just as painful if not worse. They want/need to be surrounded by people who recognize that as soon as they leave our cul-de-sac they're questioned on every aspect of their lives and won't argue "but he's not racist..." to them. So they move back or find an area with a higher percentage of AA residents than we have. (We're "diverse" in Asian and Muslim rather than African-American population here for the most part.) And so we say "I don't get it. Great schools. Great community...their loss" instead of examining ourselves and why they're leaving. Self-reflection is HARD (and often wrong.)
The vast majority of what I've learned has been over the past few years from discussions I've had here. Because of *these* discussions I've had some harder ones with friends, family and others IRL, trying to unlearn what I learned at my daddy's knee and stuff I've never learned or even thought about.
As an aside, the media is easy to blame and it does reinforce the stereotypes we don't want to examine. White "athlete" rapists vs. black "thug/criminal" victims. Celebrations vs. Riots. But it's easy to blame them rather than our parents and ourselves for not examining what our parents taught us and what we did and didn't learn in our schools. This "to the victor goes the spoils" mentality has gone on since we first stepped foot on the first continent we colonized, and as our foothold gets smaller, we get scared that we'll lose what power and privilege we have. They might just "do to us what we've done to them."
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
For me, we go where our work is. I've had 7 addresses over the last 12 years, in five states, as well as one more address overseas. I currently telework, and really, interact with almost nobody face to face on a daily basis beyond my husband. Unless I make an effort to go out, it's just the two of us in the evening. My hobbies seem to be predominantly populated with white people. I don't know how to change that. I could change hobbies, I suppose. The main hobbies I've been doing for 20+ years, and I'm rather fond of them. So that might be a comfort zone for me. Most of the folks I do interact with are people I get to know thru hobbies, so that basically self-selects the people I hang out with. I use "hang out" here, because we socialize around the hobbies, not really as friends that are independent of that. I'm not sure I really have a whole lot of authentic relationships with white people, outside of family.
We pick rentals in each place we live, but we know it's only temporary. We sort of make some local friends in each place, but it's hard to make _any_ friends, much less build deep relationships with anyone. Our neighbourhood is not very diverse, but there are a few families in the immediate nearby blocks that are not white. And that's probably not much more or less diverse than the town as a whole (midsize midwest town). We are here because DH had orders to the base here, and we picked this specific rental because it had the best kitchen and enough space for us. The neighbours/schools/etc were never a part of the decision. We were looking at rentals in mid-February, too, so the rental options were crap, and it's not like folks were working out in their yards for us to find out who the neighbours were.
I recognize most of my neighbours, but almost never _talk_ with any of them. We smile and wave when we pass each other. Or grimace if it's freezing cold.
I was raised as a racist, and I had no idea that was true until maybe 10 years ago or so (I'm 30). I thought the shit my parents said to me as a kid was normal. But I'm a person who's never met a stranger and never been afraid to talk to anyone, even as a young child, and when I moved away from my family around age 20 for the sake of my own mental health, it helped me to at least start waking up.
My first memory is of my family moving to a rental home in Nashville. My much older half brother lived with us at the time, and apparently my dad did no research on the local public schools, so he went to a "rough" high school. I specifically remember my mom telling me how she had seen black kids "beating the shit out of" other kids, and she said it as if the black kids were animals. As a 4 year old, I guess that might have instilled fear in me. We lived in Davidson county for maybe a year or two until we (my brother 1 year older, myself, and my sister 1 year younger) became school aged, and my mom insisted we move to the suburbs "for the schools".
Our next home had black neighbors next door. I remember my parents making racial comments, but maybe not any slurs outright, and commenting that "of course we live right next to the only black people in the neighborhood." They commented as to how our property value likely went up when they moved.
Then we moved out to the country. Growing up, my school had approximately three black families. We could always count the black students on our hands.
Combine all of that with shit my parents would say, like my mom telling me that "white men are the most discriminated against people in this country" in regards to something about job applications. Asking my mom a question once or maybe telling her to do something, and her response being, "Look at my face. Do I look black to you?" meaning that she was not a servant. My dad telling me as a kid not to bring home (date) any black people. "Anglo-Saxons only." But my mother, being the benevolent racist that she was, assuring me it would be fine if I brought home some handsome man "like Ricky Martin" (lol).
More recent racist shit my mom has said (always in my current neighborhood, as I'm the only one of the bunch who enjoys city living and people in general) include: "Ugh, Muslims. *shiver*" Literally just upon seeing two Islamic women walk across the street. Also "You really don't feel unsafe around here, do you?" Said in a delighted/surprised tone that my neighborhood is actually quaint af and also consists of a very diverse population. I don't know that I was ever taught to fear black folks, but I could see how that could be so easily and deeply ingrained in people from a very young age. Also my parents are the people who feel the need to own firearms for their own personal safety. So there you have it.
I grew up, and still live in, a very white area. My exposure to POC was limited, and I'm trying to think back. I think I did get the impression that were black people lived, there was crime and drugs. And my parents perpetuated that. I think because my mom grew up very poor, she figured if she could pull herself up by her bootstraps, so could black people. Certainly neither of my parents can admit the impact systemic racism has on POC. And there is definitely a fear of "us" (white people) becoming the minority. And that because of affirmative action, POC are getting things they don't deserve (entrance to college, jobs, etc.).
I've stayed in this area because it's what I know, I guess. I feel comfortable here, it's familiar. It's slowly becoming more diverse. I don't have a lot of friends in general, and I have very few friends who are POC. I guess it feels inauthentic to specifically seek out POC to be friends with.
I don't think there's any one WHY or HOW.
ETA- honestly, a lot of my exposure to POC comes from this board, which has changed my outlook on issues enormously. But I guess to a certain extent, you also have to be open to hearing different points of view. And I don't know how you get there.
I don't think it's enough of an explanation simply to say that you've had little to no interaction with black people.
I would bet money that, if two of my East Asian friends and I had been loading suitcases into our car in Rialto, that woman wouldn't have called the cops on us.
It's a very specific fear of blackness, not just a general racism.
Until I was raped, I know my bias against black and brown men came from being a repeated crime victim, and the crimes were always committed by mostly black and sometimes brown men. My locker was robbed twice in HS and the stolen items were found with black students who admitted to breaking into my locker. 4 Latino Guys (two were friends of mine, or so I thought), jumped in my car in the parking lot at school to steal it while I was sitting on the trunk. I had the keys in my hand so they jumped out and joked that they were just joking, but the two “friends” looked so sheepish and ashamed I knew it wasn’t a joke. My first memory is being dropped out of the bedroom window of our apartment onto a bean bag near my brother (who was 3 or 4) who had our suitcase because 3 Black men were coming after my mom trying to beat in the front door screaming slurs at her that she later explained (when I was older) were threats of rape. We never went back to that apartment. When Rodney King was beaten a hall in my high school was designated “broadway” and white people werent allowed. No one told me so when I walked down the hall 4 big black football players started shoving me around calling me a white bitch who thinks she is better than everyone and needs to be taught a lesson. Our big principle came down the stairs and rescued me. My freshmen year I walked out of health class and someone shoved me against a locker. When I looked up to understand why I realized I was standing between a Latino and a black guy pointing guns at each other.
You add that to coded language by my mom, outright racist language by her parents, and her very real experience of being a victim of a violent assault by Latino men and there was an overwhelming sense that Latino and Black men were violent than others and intend to hurt you or rob you. That stuff wasn’t happening by white men. And some of my mom’s husbands and boyfriends were outright racist. Like when my freshman year homecoming date came to the door and was Asian, my stepdad freaked out but then later said at least he wasn’t an N word.
I didn’t have a lot of great experiences with a Black Women either. I had big tits and 36-23-35 proportions and 5’3” so some Black Guys very verbally flirted with me in the halls and the girls that liked them hated me as a result. My hair was pulled and I was accused of being a fake blonde and given the hallway shoulder shove or having my books pushed to the floor. A black girl who sat behind me in math flicked small pieces of gum into my long hair during class so I had to spend hours combing it out with peanut butter or chop it off. A group of 13 girls surrounded me in the cafeteria because I was saving a chair for my friend that they wanted. They were all Black and threatened to kick my ass over a chair instead of going a few feet over and getting another. The two Black girls in my honors and GT classes were taunted by other black girls all the time for being wanna be white because they got good grades.
Shit was NOT good in my high school. I am one of the only white people I knew that chose a diverse college and opened my experiences to people of all races where I had to really confront biases I had formed as a result of my environment and the shit adults said around me growing up. Most of the people that I went to HS with moved away to whiter neighborhoods and don’t have a lot of black friends. They have a handful of Latino friends. They don’t really have Asian friends. They insulated themselves so those experiences in HS are all they know and they never try to understand why the black kids in school hated us so much. They never considered what it was like to be bussed in from a very poor neighborhood where streets (managed by the city) were never repaired but as soon as the bus passed majority white neighborhoods the potholes were all repaired and sidewalks were everywhere. They never tried to look through the lens of the people who were taking their anger out on people they saw as still oppressing them or benefiting from their oppression. I got exposure to that in college and made friends with a lot more diverse people and was able to reprogram my brain to look at the person first and their race or ethnicity second.
I don’t have fear when three preppy black guys approach me. I have occasionally still have physical fear reaction when 3 men in severely sagging pants and du rags are approaching. I am ashamed of that. But they look like the guys that drive us from our apartment and who cheered as football players pushed me around and like the two guys who accelerated and hit the gas when I crossed their path in the target parking lot when I was 9 months pregnant AND who jumped out threatening to beat me down when I screamed at them to watch the fuck out (I passed when they were at a stop sign 6 rows away from me... had they not sped up I wouldn’t have been in their path. They were trying to terrify me for fun, stupid punks). And like the guys who woke my husband in his sleep with a gun pressed to his cheek and kicked, hit, tied up and duct taped and robbed him for two hours. I doalso have fear when a white man with a certain build comes by me at night and I am alone, because it reminds me of the guy that raped me. I don’t seem to get afraid of Latino or Asian men if they are just hanging out or are in groups. If they start shouting taunts that is different. A single Black man doesn’t bother me regardless of what he is wearing. It is the groups that conjure up memories. Thankfully ever year those memories fade more and more into the background.
Most of the white people I know don’t have these experiences to have created fear in them, except coded and racist family language. They subscribe to the media story that most robberies are committed by Black men. That doors being kicked in at people’s homes are done only by black men. So I can’t speak for them. I can just just continue to examine my conscious and unconscious bias and adjust my actions accordingly.
As for Black Women - The majority of women with whom I work are Black Women and all incredible. I have close friends now that are black and on whom I can count and vice versa. So what biases I might have had when I started at my company over a decade ago don’t feel like they are present. But because of this board I do still continue to examine my biases and potentially unconscious bias and try to figure out what is behind it when I recognize it.
was5 ,Thank you for your candor and sharing. I mean that sincerely because of each story, I just get perplexed that no one will say WHY or how these things come to pass. Your comments are helpful. So, thank you.
This is interesting to me because it is such an ingrained thing for me. I honestly don't know how or why beyond "it's what white people do." One of my earliest memories is playing with my sister at a playground during our older brother's soccer game, in an unfamiliar neighborhood. I was probably 6 years old? No older than 8. My sister wandered off, and I spent a few minutes frantically looking for her. I found her walking hand-in-hand with a black teenage girl. I screamed at her to leave my sister alone, and for my sister to come with me RIGHT NOW. Not my finest moment for sure. I'm certain I wouldn't have reacted the same way to a white teenager. I remember reflecting on this moment as an older child, maybe a preteen, and thinking of it as "the time my sister was almost kidnapped." Now as an adult I realize this girl was probably either trying to play with my sister or help her find her family. By the time I was 6ish years old, our society had taught me in a million different ways, none of which I now remember, that I couldn't trust black people.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
On building more authentic relationships with POC, I am just going to say it is hard, period. I would imagine most people, probably of any race, just take the easy way out when it comes to forging relationships as adults. Think about how many often it gets lamented that making friends as adults is just really, really difficult. It's hard to find common interests, or people who don't suck, who aren't busy all the time, or just to even find a good connection, right? Sometimes it feels like finding a needle in a haystack just in the general population as a whole. Leaving the idea of finding what amounts to a "token black friend" out of the equation entirely for right now, but trying to narrow down the potential friend list to specifically zero in on POC probably feels not only completely fake and asinine for the POC in question, but also pretty daunting. Especially if you are self-aware enough to recognize that POC have no reason to trust us, and generally don't (nor should they). I try to tread lightly knowing that.
So, instead of fighting the natural inclination to just stick with status quo, we let the inertia take us right back to where we always have been. I would be lying if I said I wasn't glad as hell that I have friends (both white and of other races and ethnicities) from all prior stages of life already, because I really would be terrible at specifically seeking out new relationships right now.
I don't think it's enough of an explanation simply to say that you've had little to no interaction with black people.
I would bet money that, if two of my East Asian friends and I had been loading suitcases into our car in Rialto, that woman wouldn't have called the cops on us.
It's a very specific fear of blackness, not just a general racism.
News, hollywood, and white parents are not warning their kids to be afraid of East Asians, so when someone has a first experience with someone who is East Asian, it is not clouded with those instilled fears.
Post by karinothing on May 14, 2018 15:25:06 GMT -5
I do not honestly know. I can say I had minimal exposure to black folks growing up (Phoenix has 5% black population) but my parents best friends growing up were an interracial couple and we spent lots of time with them. So I don't think I can claim that. My parents never really talked about race, beyond racism is evil.
I now live in a black neighborhood and attend a very diverse church. My kid goes to a diverse school and yet all of my close friends are white. In my case that was likely the fault of law school (3 black students in my class) and daycare (all black teachers no black students). Meaning my easy social circle was segregated.
Now I live in this neighborhood and there is a divide between the white new neighbors and the black older neighbors. I do attend all the neighborhood events (car shows and cook outs) but i am often the only white person there and I feel like I am intruding. I do plan on hosting a neighborhood BBQ next month which will hopefully at least give me an easy way to talk to everyone.
Anyway, I don't know how to fix it all or any of it really. Hopefully my kids are less fucked up but considering his close friends at school are white probably not.
ETA: I realize that this didn't answer the question. I am not fearful (was never taught to be that way) so I don't understand that. I don't really know what the answer is beyond we suck and are racist.
was5 ,Thank you for your candor and sharing. I mean that sincerely because of each story, I just get perplexed that no one will say WHY or how these things come to pass. Your comments are helpful. So, thank you.
I am from the same area, a lot farther north. I do think it is in human nature to want to be in groups or tribes or clans, so it comes from there. The other group/ clan/ tribe is possibly a problem. I think everyone is biased in a way, but the point is to strive against that.
But from the history in Michigan POV absolutely she is right about the Detroit/ Flint/ Saginaw and so many other areas. They were nice towns, and then we had the race riots in the late 60's early 70's and there was white flight. And then when later the middle class black people moved to the white suburbs maybe 80's onward the whites were taken aback. I remember my Grandma talking about it and they didn't know what to do and eventually the accepted it and said they were really nice people. But not everyone even had that frame of mind to accept it, and absolutely her initial response was racist anyway. My mom was repeating the racist things they said growing up. She never said them to me growing up but in her generation they were singing racists songs and just crap and that was normal to them.
And then when GM moved 80,000 jobs out of one area- the whole middle class disintegrated. And there are still a few nice neighborhoods but some of them are so burnt out. Abandoned, burnt houses. I don't know if anyone lives there anymore because the population has decreased so much, but previous to even that level of decay it was the poorest often black people.
Add in corrupt politicians from Detroit mayors to EPA and state government that criminally messed up the Flint Water crisis which would never have happened if it were a rich white city. And you got ego and institutional racism and corruption, but that is systematic and you are talking about the individual. But the individual lives in that system.
I had to write about the Flint Water Crisis because I was just visiting the area, and it pisses me off so much.
I don't think it's enough of an explanation simply to say that you've had little to no interaction with black people.
I would bet money that, if two of my East Asian friends and I had been loading suitcases into our car in Rialto, that woman wouldn't have called the cops on us.
It's a very specific fear of blackness, not just a general racism.
I referred to general racism for the power imbalance. But, yes, what racism looks like varies according to race.
I would say I was directly taught the stereotypical racist beliefs in which black = dangerous among other things. While others races were referred to in derogatory terms also, it was not fear related. There was coded language, but even more so there were direct remarks about black people, inner cities, violence, poverty, etc. There was very little to no conversation about race as it related to white crime, violence, etc. I believe, in my family, the older generations choose to be blind to reality in order to maintain the sense of superiority. At times, when I have confronted this, the response is very "I have a black friend," but it is maintained that black people must prove themselves. There is complete denial of the different standards expected of white people and black people.
For me, I would say I was overtly taught to be racist, but I can't speak for how my parents got to be that way.
Can ya'll talk about specific examples of "fear the world around you?"
Like, I know I'm cognizant of odd behavior or someone following me, but not the random guy sitting next to the store. I look at him and think - he's just chilling - not OMG LOITERING! CALL THE COPS.
Right. It's a level of paranoia and tattling that makes no good sense to me. Let them people live.
Okay, I have to say something...I don't think that I got these messages of fear the world around me? I actually think that as a white woman I got the message that I was pretty much safe every single place I go, which breeds a sense of entitlement. I was walking around a college campus alone as a little 6 year old kid. Totally unafraid. I run in a sports bra and tiny shorts, I'm never scared when shopping or driving. I'm not scared...and that lack of fear could 100% lead me to: go up to some people on a campus tour and demand to know why they are there, interrupt their bbq, call the cops on golfing too slow. "Following my gut," and being a mamma bear.
I keep thinking about these assholes that are calling the cops and they don't seem scared. They seem entitled. The woman who called the cops about the grad student at Yale did NOT seem afraid. She seemed entitled "You cannot be here. Go ahead take my picture! I own this place! I KNOW I'm right! I know I'm safe! Do it B" That's b/c everywhere she has gone, she knows she's good to go.
The cops called on the people GOLFING too slow. That smells of entitlement.
I'm not saying people aren't afraid, but a lot of this is..grasping behavior: I DESERVE to be here and it's leading to, as 05heel has said doing whatever it takes to keep "real estate," as others work to get a more equal share and the pyramid actually flattens out.
I grew up around racist people. They weren't cross-burning, KKK members, but there was both subtle and not-so-subtle racism woven into my entire upbringing. I remember my dad going OFF about how public schools all went down the tubes after integration. My dad owned his own business and he never had a black employee who lasted long because my dad was convinced that they never worked hard enough or were plotting to steal from him. My mom was "nicer", but I don't know that back when they were married she ever disagreed with him about much. I really never remember hearing my dad say anything positive about POC. And, frankly, most of the adults around me were the same way.
Now it's shocking for me to think about how racist they were. I started noticing when I was a little kid because it didn't make sense to me. There was little girl in my class in 2nd grade who had wonderful hair. It was just like Tootie on Facts of Life. I told my grandma that I wanted my hair to look like that and she told me to hush and asked why I'd ever want hair like a black girl. That's one that sticks out...there have to be so many more. My big wake up call was in 7th grade when I made friends with a black girl. She and her family moved into our neighborhood and there was "talk" about that. But she rode my bus and she was awesome and we had a ton of fun together. But when I finally told my mom that I wanted her to come over for a sleep over, she (my mom) "had to think about it" because of "what your father will say" --mind you, my parents were divorced by then. She'd never said anything like that about any other new friend. But my mom finally said yes, but I felt nervous about her coming over then because I didn't want my mom to be weird. Then when, inevitably, my friend invited me over for a sleep over at her house, my parents had to have a talk and they said no. And it was because of my friend's dad. There was no problem with this man other than his skin color. And me, their precious white baby girl, wasn't allowed to spend the night in a house with a black man. And not just that, my dad laid down the law that I could not even go to their house to hang out during the day.
I was so angry and I didn't know what to do. Was I supposed to tell my friend that my parents were racist as fuck (though, I'm sure she knew it already) and that's why I couldn't just go to her house? So I just kept making up reasons why I couldn't and it was horrible and I'm sure I bungled it. We stayed friends for awhile, but eventually drifted apart, which, I'm sure is what my parents wanted. And I wasn't the kid from the after school special who persevered and bridged the divide. I was terrified of my dad and I took the easy route. I've always regretted it and know I should have done things differently. I'm sure she got over it, but I know it hurt my friend. The whole thing definitely changed my view of my parents. I knew they were wrong and that was kind of the start of me really questioning everything.
I have so many experiences like was5 described. When I was older and talked to my dad about it, he literally said that I'd understand when I was older. No. I don't remember there being an overall fear issue, at least it didn't come across like that, but I guess that's where the hatefulness must come from.
I actively work against any kind of racist assumptions or stereotypes that are ingrained. I stay informed and, in general, try not be an asshole. I talk to my kids about racism and injustice a lot. I hope that I'm giving them the chance to be better than me by not having that sort of background.
I think there's also an aspect of not stopping poor (or even violent/dangerous) behavior because of racism. And it doesn't have to be what you think of as your everyday self. So let's say you're having a bad day, you're cross and grumpy or super keyed up and everything feels like a threat. Those feelings are going to come out around others, but probably not around people you deem higher status (your boss, your neighbors) or other situations where you perceive consequences. Because of ingrained racism, black people and other minority groups will be more likely to be perceived as safe to vent those negative emotions on.
I don't think that's all of it by any means, but I think that's a chunk of the "I'm not racist" racism. I'm thinking of the glaring diner types.
(Sorry if I'm repeating someone, I started typing this on my phone and now I can't check the thread)
I think not having contact is valid. There's a lot of inherent "othering" of literally all other races when you are from a homogeneous white, Christian area. I wasn't raised by people who used the N word (in fact, I was told "we do not use that word in this family"), but there also wasn't on going conversation about things like racism, prejudice, etc. Growing up within the Philadelphia news area, I'm sure the news coverage had a part in some of the stereotypes I've learned. But even some of the stuff I'm seeing in this thread - the idea of black people being drug users for example, this isn't really something I've ever thought of as a stereotype. I think for me it really comes down to "they" were different in some way and that difference made my older family members say some really nasty shit about "them." (It's here that I admit that I actually had no idea how my grandmother felt about black people until after I had my one black friend over at her house a few times. I can't bring myself to ask him if she was ever rude to him because I already feel bad enough that I put him in that situation.)
The fear thing is something I can't really relate to. I grew up without locking our house or cars, though. So it's possible I just don't have an ingrained fear of things I can't control.
It's truly fucked up, but I think for that white woman at Yale, on some level she believes that being a Yale grad student = supremacy = it's a white space. She's at the top of the cultural heap, and the presence of a black person in this place means it, as a space for her, is somehow threatened.
I think for a lot of white people, black people being in a public space means it's no longer "their" space. Just the existence of black people in that space, without the black people acknowledging they are second class citizens in some way, means the space is ruined for the white person. Of course, none of these spaces belong just to white people, but white people have internalized that they are the arbiters of everything. They get to decide what is allowed. I mean we've seen that play out here on GBCN over and over, and how it exhausts the POC women to have to defend themselves against this constant assumption.
I have to admit, raised as a liberal and spending most of my adult life with liberal people, I don't do enough to combat this. We often think virtue-signaling is the only thing we have to do. We give ourselves pats on the back for not being overtly racist like the Yale woman or the Oakland woman. We give ourselves pats on the back for having black friends, or supporting diverse cultural perspectives, or venturing to African American parts of town. We decry racism as if it has nothing to do with ourselves. We think we are just great, while doing nothing.
was5 ,Thank you for your candor and sharing. I mean that sincerely because of each story, I just get perplexed that no one will say WHY or how these things come to pass. Your comments are helpful. So, thank you.
I do appreciate your replying (and asking for specifics in the first place). So many times people talk in generalities, even on an anonymous board. I know my family is not the exception, but sometimes it feels like it. But, if we admit our family is outspoken in its racism, we have to face the reality of how we responded to that. Not so much as children (even middle-schoolers), but definitely as adults, and that is a hard reality to face because few of us have ever done or said enough.
I think the amount of overt racism is class related. My family, was more blatant and outspoken in its racism, in part I think, because the perceived threat was closer. Black people could move into our neighborhood, take our father's jobs, etc., but people who lived in Birmingham (UMC, white) could use coded language and rely more heavily on institutional racism. Their children could say "my parents aren't racist, we just didn't see many black people in our neighborhoods or in our school." While that might be true, it is not a complete answer to the question of how racism is ingrained in us.
Keep going. I feel like there has to be more to it.
Why aren't you having more authentic relationships with POC? Why haven't you benefited/stop caring the fears of your parents more fully? Why are you still saying a school is good because it has a population oh 98%white? Why are you settling in communities that lack diversity? I need more.
On building more authentic relationships with POC, I am just going to say it is hard, period. I would imagine most people, probably of any race, just take the easy way out when it comes to forging relationships as adults. Think about how many often it gets lamented that making friends as adults is just really, really difficult. It's hard to find common interests, or people who don't suck, who aren't busy all the time, or just to even find a good connection, right? Sometimes it feels like finding a needle in a haystack just in the general population as a whole. Leaving the idea of finding what amounts to a "token black friend" out of the equation entirely for right now, but trying to narrow down the potential friend list to specifically zero in on POC probably feels not only completely fake and asinine for the POC in question, but also pretty daunting. Especially if you are self-aware enough to recognize that POC have no reason to trust us, and generally don't (nor should they). I try to tread lightly knowing that.
So, instead of fighting the natural inclination to just stick with status quo, we let the inertia take us right back to where we always have been. I would be lying if I said I wasn't glad as hell that I have friends (both white and of other races and ethnicities) from all prior stages of life already, because I really would be terrible at specifically seeking out new relationships right now.
I do think this is somewhat of a cop-out. to be honest. Because to me, "authentic relationship" doesn't mean "this person is my new BFF."
While it's true it's hard to make close friends as you get older, I'm going to guess that most of us have made new authentic relationships with other white people well into our 30s and 40s. Most of us must have a coworker or a neighbor or parents of kids' friends or someone that we've started socializing with outside of the original point of interaction. And if none of these newer people are people of color, then the problem isn't that it's hard to make friends as you get older, the problem is that the original points of interaction are too white, or white people's habits and biases in diverse spaces prevent us from clicking with people who look different from us.
Now it's shocking for me to think about how racist they were. I started noticing when I was a little kid because it didn't make sense to me.
Yes. I think the shock has worn off for me, but I know what you mean. The more I think about my childhood, the more examples I can come up with.
I remember as a young child (4 or 5) on vacation in FL with extended family. I was the only one in my family who didn't go in the big swimming pool. I stayed in the kiddie pool. There happened to be another little girl my age who was playing in the kiddie pool and we had a great time all day playing together. I still remember the comments my family made about my the "brown friend" I made. Nobody said I couldn't play with her, but the message that it was odd for me to have a friend who wasn't white was loud and clear.
On building more authentic relationships with POC, I am just going to say it is hard, period. I would imagine most people, probably of any race, just take the easy way out when it comes to forging relationships as adults. Think about how many often it gets lamented that making friends as adults is just really, really difficult. It's hard to find common interests, or people who don't suck, who aren't busy all the time, or just to even find a good connection, right? Sometimes it feels like finding a needle in a haystack just in the general population as a whole. Leaving the idea of finding what amounts to a "token black friend" out of the equation entirely for right now, but trying to narrow down the potential friend list to specifically zero in on POC probably feels not only completely fake and asinine for the POC in question, but also pretty daunting. Especially if you are self-aware enough to recognize that POC have no reason to trust us, and generally don't (nor should they). I try to tread lightly knowing that.
So, instead of fighting the natural inclination to just stick with status quo, we let the inertia take us right back to where we always have been. I would be lying if I said I wasn't glad as hell that I have friends (both white and of other races and ethnicities) from all prior stages of life already, because I really would be terrible at specifically seeking out new relationships right now.
I do think this is somewhat of a cop-out. to be honest. Because to me, "authentic relationship" doesn't mean "this person is my new BFF."
While it's true it's hard to make close friends as you get older, I'm going to guess that most of us have made new authentic relationships with other white people well into our 30s and 40s. Most of us must have a coworker or a neighbor or parents of kids' friends or someone that we've started socializing with outside of the original point of interaction. And if none of these newer people are people of color, then the problem isn't that it's hard to make friends as you get older, the problem is that the original points of interaction are too white, or white people's habits and biases in diverse spaces prevent us from clicking with people who look different from us.
Oh, to be clear, I am absolutely saying that it is a cop out. I don't think people want to put in any work to put themselves out of their comfort zone, so if a genuine friendship with a POC doesn't fall in our laps out of the clear blue sky, it seems much less likely to happen. We've all acknowledged that living segregated lives has contributed so much the the problem. For most of us, fostering an authentic relationship with POC is going to require stepping out of that, and I think people's natural inclination is to take the easy, lazy way out.
And look, I think it's great that there are people who don't find it hard to make new friends. I am just not one of those people, at least right now in this stage of life. I am friendly and I am nice to people, but most of that right now seems to be on the superficial plane, not the stuff long-lasting friendships are made of. That's probably fine for where I am right now, and maybe things will pick up again in the future and I will find more people that I click with easily and that's great too. But being 100% honest, it has definitely been quite awhile since I have moved a friendship from the friendly banter, see each other in groups occasionally and can carry a conversation arena to something more. I don't feel like I am alone in that, either, but maybe I am just telling myself that so I feel better, LOL!