Yes, but the question here again is WHY? To think that black folks are inherently criminal and then act upon that thought requires you to ask - "what have I been taught, heard, seen etc. to make this my first thought."
That's what I need white folks to confront. Because two men waiting for a business associate is no different and looks no different across all races. So, I need folks to dig and say - where did I first get that message.
Then, you've got to say - ok - how do I make sure I don't unconsciously continue that teaching.
This is actually something I'm struggling with as I don't have kids and I don't know that H and I will. Calling out the older generations is great, but it needs to really worked into our youth ... which I'm not contributing to. I can, will, and do impart my world view as much as possible into my nieces and nephews, but my ability to influence is pretty limited. (The oldest is 10 and most of them are not even elementary school age, and mostly we don't see them very often.)
.
You don’t have to have kids. Join your community Nextdoor and push back in your neighborhood when your neighbors invariably use that platform to spread racist thought. You have other ways to spread your influence other than by having kids.
1. This is not how affirmative action works. 2. How in the world can any white person claim that their family / friend was passed over in favor of a less qualified person of color? How would they POSSIBLY know the academic qualifications of that person?
When lawsuits are made public.
Like how it came out when Abigail Fisher sued UT that virtually every one of the 47 people who got in with lower test scores than her were white.
It's why money in districts goes to certain schools and not others. white women and their children. blech
Everyone should be paying attention to Houston Independent School District. It is the largest school district in the state and its superintendent just left to go run NYC Public schools. Yet it is about to have $300,000,000 short fall and massive teacher and funding cuts. They are want to start closing schools. One of its many problems is with how they do educational funding for each school. It is not pooled together an allocated equally among all the schools in the district. Each attendance zone/area keeps what they have in terms of money. So high property value areas that generate more money keep that. Proverty areas generate less money so they are behind from the get go.
HISD has been asked if they will change there finance model for a more centralized equal school funding and they will not do so.
and this right here is where we put up or shut up. Supporting anything but equal distribution of resources across the district is flat out racism and no one can deny that shit. Education is the best equalizer and if access isn’t equal we are purposefully supporting systemic racism.
Eta besides - when preshus isn’t getting the very very best those of us in affluent areas will fund our PTAs to provide the extras. So our kids will still get more. Why not help ourselves by helping our damn entire community!?
Even though it's a troll, it does prove the point. Poor whites are *always* in opposition to black people. It's set up that way by our society on purpose. If we saw each other as equal, our government and whole way of life as we know it (aka white supremacy) would topple. See also, why Jim Crow came to be and was enforced by laws.
I think the fear aspect has gotten a bit overblown in this thread, and yes I said I agreed with the fear part, but the reason I also brought up not being able to tolerate discomfort is that I think that's the root of it. White people feel somebody "doesn't belong" for racist reasons and it is discomfort they are actually feeling but they interpret that as fear due to racism. Fear is a conditioned response to that discomfort.
I also think another piece that hasn't been brought up is that white people fear judgment from other white people if they associate too much with black people. The good neighborhood phenomenon goes beyond real estate choices. It's an ugly truth that I think us white people need to own up to, because I guarantee we all have felt it. So, the Starbucks worker or the lady in the park are protecting their white space from other white people's eyes just as much as, if not more than, they are protecting it from imaginary dangers.
I grew up being told how much more valuable I was. I was the petite, blonde haired and green eyed cheerleader. If I wasn’t careful, I’d be abducted and raped and murdered and left to rot in the woods. It was not so vaguely suggested that white men didn’t do those things - the black men did.
My siblings and I were sent to the small parochial school in our city because the “riffraff” of the 2 public high schools just “wasn’t for our kind of family”. My father was a deputy sheriff who only appreciated black skin when it was on a boy who could run with a football. Mainly, we needed to stick to the other white, Catholic kids we were being taught were the types of kids who would be successful. Those other kids at the public schools... they were all going to be druggies and live in the “bad parts” of the city, work at the grocery store and live on welfare with their manicured nails and new cellphones. They were lazy and dangerous. My family was doing ok, but they “worked” for it, in their eyes.
And the successful black people in our city? That was Affirmative Action, taking spots away from deserving white kids. Wasn’t it just so unfair that I wasn’t accepted to XYZ College, because they had a quota of black kids to accept before me? I’m sure it had nothing to do with the fact that I was wholly unqualified to attend that University and didn’t have the test scores when I applied. But having so many people say that... it was easier to believe I had been unfairly declined because of AA than it was because of my own parochial educated college prep merits.
It wasn’t until college when I was forced to address my inherent prejudice. I lived in a suite Sophomore year with a black girl, an Asian girl, a Native American girl, and 2 other white girls. We’d discussed race and how they felt judged and needed to be extra smart, extra safe, extra good. It really hit me when my NA roommate and I took a woman’s studies class and did our homework together. Our professor called her out, saying she had clearly been copying my homework. It got to our Associate Dean before we could convince them that while yes, we did our homework together, there was no copying. It hit me that as we continued to defend my roommate, it was never once suggested that I had copied off of her. It was very obvious as to why.
After college, I moved to Dorchester, a section of Boston that is primarily black/ Vietnamese/ Hispanic. My mother damn near lost her mind. “Do you know there are *whispers* black people there??!!” No shit, Sherlock. I didn’t have a problem living amongst minorities. I don’t assume that every minority man looks at me as though I am a piece of meat - I’m not special. But you’d have thought I was telling her I was walking into a war zone. She still thinks that black neighborhoods mean gangs and guns and violence and drugs. It’s one of the main reasons why we’re completely estranged now. Meanwhile, my lily white brother has PTSD from Iraq and won’t leave home without his glock. Christ, he won’t SIT in his home without his glock being within reach. The paranoia is real.
I don’t pretend to be an ally. I don’t think any black person would want me, nor would I ask that of them. But I also think it’s really rich to pigeonhole yourself into living in all white communities and then being flabbergasted about why you don’t have any black friends and lament how hard it is to meet people. (Folks here, and in my real life as well) its that type of community that fosters that idea that a black person showing up is a mistake - that there’s no way they could enjoy Starbucks or renting a nice AirBnB or sleeping in a dorm or walking to school or being on an airplane. That’s for the WHITE folks in the neighborhood.
To add to the bolded..white resentment to Affirmative Action is very strong. PP above says she didn't have the test scores and qualifications to attend the schools she applied to and I am sure that is the case in many situations. But, the reality is because of the quotas imposed by affirmative action, many white kids with grades and test scores above and beyond are denied admission in favor of black kids with lower scores and poorer grades. I understand white privilege plays a part but I can understand the resentment a white family (especially a lower income one) would feel when their child worked hard, overcame their own adversity, and achieved academic success only to be pushed aside for a less qualified student due to their lack of melanin. To me, this is just repeating the shameful mistakes of the past.
No, bitch no.
This right here though, that white folks work really hard, guys and deseeeeerve the college degree, home in the suburbs, no student loan debt, a middle class life and if they don't get it then blame minorities for taking up their spots is at the core of why racism still exists.
GTFO with this alt right nonsense.
Work hard is probably the number 2 way white people lie to themselves.
This is actually something I'm struggling with as I don't have kids and I don't know that H and I will. Calling out the older generations is great, but it needs to really worked into our youth ... which I'm not contributing to. I can, will, and do impart my world view as much as possible into my nieces and nephews, but my ability to influence is pretty limited. (The oldest is 10 and most of them are not even elementary school age, and mostly we don't see them very often.)
.
You don’t have to have kids. Join your community Nextdoor and push back in your neighborhood when your neighbors invariably use that platform to spread racist thought. You have other ways to spread your influence other than by having kids.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
Even though it's a troll, it does prove the point. Poor whites are *always* in opposition to black people. It's set up that way by our society on purpose. If we saw each other as equal, our government and whole way of life as we know it (aka white supremacy) would topple. See also, why Jim Crow came to be and was enforced by laws.
Yes. You just said this way better than I did way back on page one. This is what I see here in good old liberal Vermont all the time.
Nothing good ever comes out of DCUM. I also need to remind myself to stay out of there. The school boards are exhausting.
No. You have a duty to stay and speak up and out.
Yeah, I stay. But to be honest, I think most of them know perfectly well they are racist. They just don't care. They pretty much say as much. Well, they say they don't care about anyone else when it comes to getting the best for their kid.
You don’t have to have kids. Join your community Nextdoor and push back in your neighborhood when your neighbors invariably use that platform to spread racist thought. You have other ways to spread your influence other than by having kids.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
Okay. But I think you understand my bigger point? You don’t have to have kids to have an impact.
I have been thinking about this all day. I was having trouble articulating my thoughts on it. These white women aren’t calling the police because they are scared, they are calling the police because they think that black people are most likely criminals. They don’t believe that systemic racism exists. They think black people are just more likely to engage in criminal activity. When push comes to shove, though, they blame it on their gut, or suspicious behavior because they can’t admit it has to do with racism, they just *know*
This is shy these white women make a point in calling the police, talk calming to the police and wait around for them to come. They are some vigilante justice crusaders saving their community from black crime.
Yes, but the question here again is WHY? To think that black folks are inherently criminal and then act upon that thought requires you to ask - "what have I been taught, heard, seen etc. to make this my first thought."
That's what I need white folks to confront. Because two men waiting for a business associate is no different and looks no different across all races. So, I need folks to dig and say - where did I first get that message.
Then, you've got to say - ok - how do I make sure I don't unconsciously continue that teaching.
Getting white people, and I’ll own it, especially white women, not to act like blind sheep- is the biggest hurdle to every social, political, environmental, etc- problem we have. Truly. You are saying people need to ask “ why” when in reality they need an incentive to ask “why”, because, otherwise, you won’t educate the masses.
There is a reason why a Yale educated, social activist, atheist acted like a common racist, without shame. She had no reason to question her opinion on black people. She had reasons to question the patriarchy and religion- because they stifled her. She did not have any reason to question a system that worked for her, like racism, and white knight cops.
As for me, the floodgates opened for me when I started to stray from my fundamentalist Christian upbringing. That crack, just snowballed, into all things I had been told instead of taught. It isn’t coincidental that my father tries harder to exert his beliefs and his power over me as I get more outspoken. This fuels me to dig deeper. This is my incentive. I don’t know if I would be so introspective if my father wasn’t so overt. I try to teach my girls to question, to analyze, to call out behavior they don’t like in me, or their friends. I am not trying to give them the right words, at the right times. I am just trying to get them to see that people are equal in their flaws and that nothing should be taken at face value- because I wasn’t taught that and it still trips me up, in unexpected ways.
You don’t have to have kids. Join your community Nextdoor and push back in your neighborhood when your neighbors invariably use that platform to spread racist thought. You have other ways to spread your influence other than by having kids.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
Then substitute basically any white space, including your own head.
I’ve yet to be in a white space that doesn’t have racism. And yes, that includes my own thought processes.
Post by imobviouslystaying on May 15, 2018 11:26:30 GMT -5
Let's talk about fear again so I can tackle why it's a lie of delusion.
The fact of the matter is that many white folks get nervous if they go to a convenience store in the middle of the afternoon and there are two black kids standing outside shooting the breeze.
But those same white folks won't think that hard at two a.m if those two black kids are the ones in uniform taking their money and checking the stockroom for tnt brand of cigarettes they smoke.
That Philly barista would have been unbothered if those men were her co-workers.
The lady in the park with the grill wouldn't have stayed one the phone for hours if the black guy in question had been in uniform setting up a bouncy house.
It's why money in districts goes to certain schools and not others. white women and their children. blech
Everyone should be paying attention to Houston Independent School District. It is the largest school district in the state and its superintendent just left to go run NYC Public schools. Yet it is about to have $300,000,000 short fall and massive teacher and funding cuts. They are want to start closing schools. One of its many problems is with how they do educational funding for each school. It is not pooled together an allocated equally among all the schools in the district. Each attendance zone/area keeps what they have in terms of money. So high property value areas that generate more money keep that. Proverty areas generate less money so they are behind from the get go.
HISD has been asked if they will change there finance model for a more centralized equal school funding and they will not do so.
Our county is the exact opposite. We live in the far west suburbs (wealthy area) and everything is pooled. Our students get less than half per student. Part of that is they expect the community/parents to pick up the slack but what we can raise is a drop in the bucket comparatively. We raise ~$40k for 1000 students. Our middle school students get something like $5-6k per student and another middle school downtown gets $12k. So we manage to raise about $400 more per student to make up for the funding differential.
(To be clear I am not complaining and in fact think this is the appropriate set up, just offering exact numbers since I’m our PTA treasurer and know those numbers).
People do bitch about it, don’t get me wrong but as I tell my kids fair doesn’t mean equal.
Post by imobviouslystaying on May 15, 2018 11:33:45 GMT -5
Also, as much as I agree that poor whites are set in opposition to black folks, there's a cop out there as well.
There is a failure to take ownership and a failure to acknowledge that this tactic only works because white folks of all stripes believe themselves superior to black folks.
See all that hard work business mentioned up there. You have to believe inherently that you work harder than black folks do in order to reach that level of resentment.
It's evidenced by the fact that people who say this never believe other white kids did better and/or maybe they should broaden their college search. Nah, black folks stole their spot at the "best" college and here we are.
We see this in home buying as well. Why can't I afford x type of house in x type of neighborhood? I work hard, this is what I'm owed and also let me work hard to keep black folks out because it makes my entitlement lesser.
Also, as much as I agree that poor whites are set in opposition to black folks, there's a cop out there as well.
There is a failure to take ownership and a failure to acknowledge that this tactic only works because white folks of all stripes believe themselves superior to black folks.
See all that hard work business mentioned up there. You have to believe inherently that you work harder than black folks do in order to reach that level of resentment.
It's evidenced by the fact that people who say this never believe other white kids did better and/or maybe they should broaden their college search. Nah, black folks stole their spot at the "best" college and here we are.
We see this in home buying as well. Why can't I afford x type of house in x type of neighborhood? I work hard, this is what I'm owed and also let me work hard to keep black folks out because it makes my entitlement lesser.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
Where do you interact with people?
Groceries. Mail. Shopping. Restaurants. Sidewalks. Emails. Texts. There are countless places to make a difference just by virtue of engaging and showing up as someone who wants inclusion vs. exclusion.
You don’t have to have kids. Join your community Nextdoor and push back in your neighborhood when your neighbors invariably use that platform to spread racist thought. You have other ways to spread your influence other than by having kids.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
I say this as a person without kids - if you have to ask "well, what do I do, I don' have kids," you probably wouldn't really be educating your kids either.
You know people. You can influence people in ways other than yelling at Great Aunt Becky with the bad memes on facebook. You can recommend books by people of color to your book club, suggest meeting a girlfriend for an exhibit on civil rights history and lunch, bring a movie with people of color in it to a family gathering for the kids to watch, engage in conversation with your friends and family about things like the Starbucks incident, talk to people about organizations that you donate to that address racial issues, the list goes on and on.
Look, I like to sit on my ass and drink rose and watch reruns of shitty white people stories on TV on Saturday afternoon and not think about the world instead of doing volunteer work. I start books by people of color that I don't always finish. I have in the past unfriended a few racists on facebook quietly as opposed to loudly. I do not live a model "ally" life by any stretch of the matter.
But my god with the handwringing people. Oh it's so hard to meet people of color to be my new bestie. Oh I don't have kids so it's so hard to do anything. Oh I live in a super white world and I don't know how to change that. The fact of the matter is that 99.9999999% of white people will never actually be able to do enough. We will never save the world, we will never win the Nobel peace prize, most of this board will have kids that will probably also live in all white communities, and Great Aunt Becky is gonna KOKO with the memes until she's in the grave. But we all have it in our power to get at least one person in our lives to stop calling the fucking cops when they see a black person living. Start there.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
Okay. But I think you understand my bigger point? You don’t have to have kids to have an impact.
(PS not even a FB group for your community?)
Oh no, I do. My actions are geared towards those I actually interact with - my family, people I meet where my cabin is, my job, etc. So I can reach people I already know, but the difficulty is reaching those who I don't, if that makes any sense. I was just relating to teaching the next generation and how that will be the most effective, but how not having kids can feel like you're missing a huge opportunity for change and teaching.
(And nope, no FB community either. Possibly related, but I live in an area where a lot of people go "oh my grandparents live there." ETA probably more relevant, there is also a large insular religious community that is based here. They seem to make up the community feel of the area, and the rest of us are kind of just living here because of location/access to public transit.)
So, let me say I'm not clamoring for more interaction with white folks. What I'm asking for here is to be able to 1) acknowledge where this overreaction comes from and 2) hope like hell my black ass isn't carted off to jail for waiting for a business associate in Starbucks.
Generally, I like to know just what the hell makes people tick and then have some discussion on why these things exist. Trust, I've certainly had some instances where I said Fuck All Ya'll Asses in a group of white folks and bounced because I was tired of racist shit. But, I can't do that in every single space and have a Marcus Garvey colony set up.
The thing is that someone has to ask. And someone has to confront some biases. You can't ask people to do the work if they don't recognize what work needs to be done inwardly.
I get you on the last point for sure. You're doing the Lord's work up in here. I'm not mad at it either! :-)
I just honestly don't care about their inward work or musings or whatever. I don't think that's a bad thing, and I know you're not saying that. I just always feel like I need to throw that out there, because most of the black people I interact with don't care either. It's a very comfortable place for me to be, and I'm all about my own comfort. I also acknowledge that a majority white message board is probably not the time or place for me to share my viewpoint. I always have to remind myself that the little red X exists for a reason, and that this is not really my space.
the healthy dose of knocking us down a few pegs isn’t doing any of us harm. I appreciate your honesty. It reminds me that a whole bunch of people and I have made a whole bunch of people and you feel the way you do and we are assholes for that and owe a lot to make it right.
We don't even have a Nextdoor for my town/neighborhood! I live in a weird place.
I say this as a person without kids - if you have to ask "well, what do I do, I don' have kids," you probably wouldn't really be educating your kids either.
You know people. You can influence people in ways other than yelling at Great Aunt Becky with the bad memes on facebook. You can recommend books by people of color to your book club, suggest meeting a girlfriend for an exhibit on civil rights history and lunch, bring a movie with people of color in it to a family gathering for the kids to watch, engage in conversation with your friends and family about things like the Starbucks incident, talk to people about organizations that you donate to that address racial issues, the list goes on and on.
Look, I like to sit on my ass and drink rose and watch reruns of shitty white people stories on TV on Saturday afternoon and not think about the world instead of doing volunteer work. I start books by people of color that I don't always finish. I have in the past unfriended a few racists on facebook quietly as opposed to loudly. I do not live a model "ally" life by any stretch of the matter.
But my god with the handwringing people. Oh it's so hard to meet people of color to be my new bestie. Oh I don't have kids so it's so hard to do anything. Oh I live in a super white world and I don't know how to change that. The fact of the matter is that 99.9999999% of white people will never actually be able to do enough. We will never save the world, we will never win the Nobel peace prize, most of this board will have kids that will probably also live in all white communities, and Great Aunt Becky is gonna KOKO with the memes until she's in the grave. But we all have it in our power to get at least one person in our lives to stop calling the fucking cops when they see a black person living. Start there.
But when it comes down to "you can't teach the next generation the way you were taught" - yes there is a certain amount of "how much can I do to help raise the next generation right?" I'm not saying I can't do anything, I'm just saying that's one aspect I feel myself failing at.
To add to the bolded..white resentment to Affirmative Action is very strong. PP above says she didn't have the test scores and qualifications to attend the schools she applied to and I am sure that is the case in many situations. But, the reality is because of the quotas imposed by affirmative action, many white kids with grades and test scores above and beyond are denied admission in favor of black kids with lower scores and poorer grades. I understand white privilege plays a part but I can understand the resentment a white family (especially a lower income one) would feel when their child worked hard, overcame their own adversity, and achieved academic success only to be pushed aside for a less qualified student due to their lack of melanin. To me, this is just repeating the shameful mistakes of the past.
the resentment is so real that it's showing up right here in your bullshit.
What is "qualified"? A test score? A GPA? Test scores are white colonial nonsense in the first place, so if that is your qualification, then it is a racist one. GPA's are also nonsense through inflation and varying standards. Extracurricular activities? Are they a qualification? If so, then that too is a racist one, as schools offer varying opportunities depending on wealth. So "less qualified" really has no actual meaning.
And it doesn't happen, so...
If "non-racist" people like you were actually interested in injustice in admissions, you'd be going after legacy admissions, or you'd be going for authentic admissions (essays and interviews instead of scores and garbage). But no. "Less qualified" applicants with melanin is the go-to. GTFO.
She was on the nest. Screen name jennifergratz. Didn't post that often, but would pop up for the affirmative action threads. I seem to recall nobody thought she was a troll. This was in the very early days of the TN, before we were doing AE days and whatnot. So it was almost certainly the real one.
She was on the nest. Screen name jennifergratz. Didn't post that often, but would pop up for the affirmative action threads. I seem to recall nobody thought she was a troll. This was in the very early days of the TN, before we were doing AE days and whatnot. So it was almost certainly the real one.
I'm sorry but this is most certainly not the case.
So, are we trolling or are you going to actually add a lil something to the convo here? As the creator of this thread, I did not intend for it to be one of open hostility or trolling. It's one for dialogue.
Now, either you can have some stats or you can say "this is anecdotal because it happened to me."
But, I'm not interested in having this thread derailed with Foolishness.
No absolutely not trolling. You asked for explanations and I'm just offering up what I have observed. I'm certainly not trying to derail such an important conversation. As far as an anecdote, I could offer several but one sticks out in my mind the most. My (white) goddaughter came from absolute poverty, she was the first in her family to go to college. She was on a partial scholarship that she had to maintain a 3.75 to keep. Her black roommate (who she adores- they are still friends) had a full ride that she only had to maintain a 2.5 to keep (specific minority scholarship- white people not eligible.) My goddaughter had to photocopy classmates textbooks because she could not afford her own. The $ she made from her job at a sub shop went to pay for her housing. She is still paying off student loans. Her black friend/roommate got her scholarship check and went shopping because her engineer father had already paid for her books. I'm not defending either position- I was just offering perspective as to why.
So, are we trolling or are you going to actually add a lil something to the convo here? As the creator of this thread, I did not intend for it to be one of open hostility or trolling. It's one for dialogue.
Now, either you can have some stats or you can say "this is anecdotal because it happened to me."
But, I'm not interested in having this thread derailed with Foolishness.
No absolutely not trolling. You asked for explanations and I'm just offering up what I have observed. I'm certainly not trying to derail such an important conversation. As far as an anecdote, I could offer several but one sticks out in my mind the most. My (white) goddaughter came from absolute poverty, she was the first in her family to go to college. She was on a partial scholarship that she had to maintain a 3.75 to keep. Her black roommate (who she adores- they are still friends) had a full ride that she only had to maintain a 2.5 to keep (specific minority scholarship- white people not eligible.) My goddaughter had to photocopy classmates textbooks because she could not afford her own. The $ she made from her job at a sub shop went to pay for her housing. She is still paying off student loans. Her black friend/roommate got her scholarship check and went shopping because her engineer father had already paid for her books. I'm not defending either position- I was just offering perspective as to why.
But none of this shit is neither here nor there. She got a different scholarship than her roommate. She had different parents than her roommate. Period.
No absolutely not trolling. You asked for explanations and I'm just offering up what I have observed. I'm certainly not trying to derail such an important conversation. As far as an anecdote, I could offer several but one sticks out in my mind the most. My (white) goddaughter came from absolute poverty, she was the first in her family to go to college. She was on a partial scholarship that she had to maintain a 3.75 to keep. Her black roommate (who she adores- they are still friends) had a full ride that she only had to maintain a 2.5 to keep (specific minority scholarship- white people not eligible.) My goddaughter had to photocopy classmates textbooks because she could not afford her own. The $ she made from her job at a sub shop went to pay for her housing. She is still paying off student loans. Her black friend/roommate got her scholarship check and went shopping because her engineer father had already paid for her books. I'm not defending either position- I was just offering perspective as to why.
But none of this shit is neither here nor there. She got a different scholarship than her roommate. She had different parents than her roommate. Period.
AGAIN for the reading comprehension challenged....the scholarship her roommate received was not available to her BECAUSE SHE IS WHITE. I'm not arguing for or against it. OP asked for explanations and I'm recounted what I've experienced.
Edit to Add- Black or white her roommate didn't need that scholarship $$. Can a board of people who claim to be "social justice warriors" explain why it's ok that an affluent black child got extra shopping money from the state when other deserving but less fortunate students (of all races) go without textbooks? Or a college education at all?