Reducing Car Dependence (@ content in posts)

[InBetweenDays]

I wish I could find (reasonable) alternative transportation to work. My office is 40 miles from my house, and it would take me 2.5 hours each way to go by bus or train. But I only drive 1-2 days and telecommute the other 3-4 days each week.

[cattledogkisses]

Apr 23, 2019 11:53:56 GMT -5 isabel said:

Apr 23, 2019 11:23:15 GMT -5 oswin said:

Obviously there might be other legitimate reasons to live far from work, but hearing about some of the crazy commutes some people here have makes me wonder why they chose the place to live that they did. Plus of course it's hard to live near work if you want to buy a house, when in a lot of industries (like tech, where I work), you have to change jobs every couple of years to get any reasonable raises. If your workplace is always moving it can be hard to make sure you live really close to it.

You're kind of contradicting yourself here. Sometimes people end up with bad commutes because they changed jobs and the new job isn't very close to where they own a home. To your point, it's not always that easy to ensure home and work line up, not to mention when a family has two working adults, they could be working in completely opposite directions.

I feel like DH's commute to downtown is pretty normal. We live in a suburb south of the city and plenty of people around us commute to the local business district (which is much closer) or downtown. My commute is quite long, but there are a lot of reasons (some of them @) that we chose to stay south of the city when we moved (even though I work north of the city).

The numbers you posted are interesting, but there is not a chance in hell we could afford a house twice as expensive as what we own, even though my commute matches up with his numbers. Even factoring in gas and car payments/maintenance/purchasing new vehicles, we don't even come close to what he's suggesting. That said, we did move this month specifically for the reason that our commutes were too long. We spent more than we wanted to in order to be in an area that was closer, but we really would not have felt comfortable spending more to get even closer to the city.

This was us when we bought our house. I was getting on the interstate to drive 45 minutes north every morning, and H was getting on the interstate to drive an hour south. It was definitely not ideal, but it was the best we could do. We both drove small, fuel-efficient cars at least. 

[oswin]

Apr 23, 2019 11:53:56 GMT -5 isabel said:

Apr 23, 2019 11:23:15 GMT -5 oswin said:

Obviously there might be other legitimate reasons to live far from work, but hearing about some of the crazy commutes some people here have makes me wonder why they chose the place to live that they did. Plus of course it's hard to live near work if you want to buy a house, when in a lot of industries (like tech, where I work), you have to change jobs every couple of years to get any reasonable raises. If your workplace is always moving it can be hard to make sure you live really close to it.

You're kind of contradicting yourself here. Sometimes people end up with bad commutes because they changed jobs and the new job isn't very close to where they own a home. To your point, it's not always that easy to ensure home and work line up, not to mention when a family has two working adults, they could be working in completely opposite directions.

I feel like DH's commute to downtown is pretty normal. We live in a suburb south of the city and plenty of people around us commute to the local business district (which is much closer) or downtown. My commute is quite long, but there are a lot of reasons (some of them @) that we chose to stay south of the city when we moved (even though I work north of the city).

The numbers you posted are interesting, but there is not a chance in hell we could afford a house twice as expensive as what we own, even though my commute matches up with his numbers. Even factoring in gas and car payments/maintenance/purchasing new vehicles, we don't even come close to what he's suggesting. That said, we did move this month specifically for the reason that our commutes were too long. We spent more than we wanted to in order to be in an area that was closer, but we really would not have felt comfortable spending more to get even closer to the city.

Well, my point is that I get that it's complicated, but there's also this aspect where a lot of people straight up don't realize that their hour long commute is a huge factor in killing their budget. So if you've done the math (which may be different for you, MrMM's case is generic), and you still think it's the right thing, then that's fine. Personally, with my financial situation the way it is (comfortable with significant savings/investments, but not quite near FIRE - I say this to admit to my privilege in making this decision), I will never accept a long commute. Period. Right now I work from home, therefore my only commute is taking the kids to school, and I already feel like I have no time for anything. So there's basically no amount of money you could pay me to drive 30-60 minutes each way. There probably is an amount of money you could pay me in order for me to move very close to a new job, that amount of money being more than enough to cover moving to a different and probably more expensive house (we've done the math on the amount of money it would take for us to move back to California and buy a house near work - it's not likely to happen, but now we know what that number is).

Anyway, to bring this back to the car dependence and environmental aspect, I'll say that there's only so much we all can do with our individual choices. We keep building more sprawl, and sprawl is not conducive to environmentally friendly transportation. So go out and vote for change! I'll be voting this week (yay early voting) for city council members who support expanding the commuter train and building a train station in the middle of town. These city council members are also working for more bike lanes. Voter turnout at these elections is really low, I think 3500-4000ish usually, in a town that has recently grown to 75000+ people (obviously not all voting age, but still). But it's so important, so vote whenever your local elections come around.

[wawa]

Apr 23, 2019 10:46:56 GMT -5 glw said:

@

I don't have kids.

Having one fewer child = 58.6 tCO2e emission reductions per year...
Living car-free = 2.4 tCO2e emission reductions per year

I'll continue to drive my 2-seater to work. 

Source: iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541

Thanks for that contribution. I'll see what the CarMax down the street will give me for the kids.

[juliachild]

Apr 23, 2019 10:35:05 GMT -5 oswin said:

@@ below (sorry for the belated tagging)

Thanks for starting a conversation! I used to commute by bicycle every day, when I lived in the Bay Area. It was great. I stopped when I was super pregnant, and then we moved to Texas and it is so much harder to get around without driving here. Our biggest excuse for driving is that we have 3 little kids. But now that I think about it, it may not be as impossible to bike places as I thought. DD is finally comfortable on a 2 wheeler, and actually she biked all the way to school (3 miles downhill) with DH a couple of times recently. We're hoping that she'll get to ride to elementary school at some point, but the logistics are complicated - if she rode her bike to school in the morning, she'd have to be able to bring her bike on the shuttle bus to after care so that she could ride it home, otherwise it'd be making a one-way trip.

We actually have a bike trailer that fits two kids, so DS1 and DS2 could ride in it, with *just* enough storage space for their backpacks. So in theory I could ride behind DD on her own bike, pulling the boys, all the way to school. Then lock DD's bike there and ride the empty trailer back home (I work from home). Maybe I'll try that at least some of the time.

The other reason/excuse here of course is that it's almost dangerously hot outside for a good chunk of the summer. I used to sometimes ride my bike 3 miles to the gym where I coached classes, then ride home. But I'd be riding home at 1pm and it'd be 90+ degrees outside. I'd even soak my shirt in water before I left and it'd be nearly dry by the time I got home (so it was doing its job cooling me).

Lastly, sometimes it's hard to bike places because the roads or even sidewalks are not safe. Most of the 3 mile route to daycare/school (which is right by the gym I used to go to) is along a boulevard with a 45mph speed limit and 2 lanes of traffic each way. There's no bike lane, and while it's technically possible/legal to ride in the lane, I generally only do that when I'm going at least 25-30mph (only possible the downhill direction). It's not very safe, and I couldn't ride in the lane. The alternative there is the sidewalk, which is weird. There's some ordinance that I think says that sidewalks on major artery streets must pleasingly meander or some shit like that, which means that the sidewalk distance is approximately 25% longer than going in a straight line. Sometimes the meandering is to avoid trees, which I get, but at those spots there are also big bumps in the sidewalk (hello tree roots!). Oh, and every time you cross a minor neighborhood road, the sidewalk turns sharply so that the crosswalk can be like 10-15 feet from the major road, which is super unsafe because then you have to slow down quite a lot and then you're so far from the main road that you have to awkwardly look over your should to see the cars that are trying to turn into that side street and hope they don't hit you when you're crossing. Riding on the sidewalk is way more dangerous at intersections than riding on the road, so they need to just stripe a damn bike lane. There's even technically room, because the curb lane is 15 feet wide (and the other lane could be made slightly narrower), but it would go against their guidelines to make it narrower. I'm pretty sure that studies have shown that when a driver is presented with a wider lane, they go faster, and narrower lanes actually make drivers drive more cautiously/safely/slowly. It's a perception thing.

Oh, and there's almost zero transit here.

Could your kids take the bus to school?

Also, I would contact your city council member or public works department about adding bike lanes. I know around me, municipalities are considering bike facilities and sidewalks more and more. 

[lilypad1126]

I miss living in Chicago where I didn't even own a car, and walked to 90% of the places I needed to go (the other 10% of the time I used public transit). Now that I live in rural, mountainous, small town America, it's HARD to give up the car. There are no sidewalks, I'd need a shower at work if I walked to/from, and my job requires a lot of travel off campus. The bus system we have is built around the class schedule (I work at a university) and if it's not class time or dinner time, the buses aren't running. There are no street lights, so if it's not full daytime with the sun shining, it's dangerous to be walking on any of the roads that are all made for two way traffic, but in reality are only 1.5 car widths wide. In addition, while there are 3 grocery stores in town, they are all ~5 miles from me. And again, unless I'm going to the small convenience store on campus, there's no real bus service to these stores.

(@) I feel like it's just a bunch of excuses, but there are so many car/pedestrian accidents, that I do feel truly unsafe on most roads. Also, after typing that all out, it's no wonder people feel so beaten down by the system here. They hear "get a job, save some money by taking the bus, then you can afford to buy a house" type messages, but we don't help them in any way to get TO their job. Or help them get groceries or help them get to/from child care or school. Nothing is convenient here, and when you finally find what you think is a "shortcut" to get where you are going, you realize that the road ends because there's a ravine, and 600 feet below you is where the road picks up again. So it's no wonder people here don't, or can't, rely on a bus to help them get around.

[Deleted]

Apr 23, 2019 12:51:50 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 23, 2019 10:46:56 GMT -5 glw said:

@

I don't have kids.

Having one fewer child = 58.6 tCO2e emission reductions per year...
Living car-free = 2.4 tCO2e emission reductions per year

I'll continue to drive my 2-seater to work. 

Source: iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541

Thanks for that contribution. I'll see what the CarMax down the street will give me for the kids.

Right?!

I understand that having kids has an environmental impact, but that’s a weird place to go. If we don’t have children to propagate the species, then why bother fighting climate change? We could sterilize everyone and go out in a blaze of glory!

OK, I’m exaggerating, and sure it’s worth considering the environmental impact of having a large number of children. But if we all stop having children, then in 25 years, we will have no taxpayers to fund necessary climate change efforts. Oh and also who the hell is going to provide us medical care when we’re 85?

[oswin]

Apr 23, 2019 12:56:45 GMT -5 juliachild said:

Apr 23, 2019 10:35:05 GMT -5 oswin said:

@@ below (sorry for the belated tagging)

Thanks for starting a conversation! I used to commute by bicycle every day, when I lived in the Bay Area. It was great. I stopped when I was super pregnant, and then we moved to Texas and it is so much harder to get around without driving here. Our biggest excuse for driving is that we have 3 little kids. But now that I think about it, it may not be as impossible to bike places as I thought. DD is finally comfortable on a 2 wheeler, and actually she biked all the way to school (3 miles downhill) with DH a couple of times recently. We're hoping that she'll get to ride to elementary school at some point, but the logistics are complicated - if she rode her bike to school in the morning, she'd have to be able to bring her bike on the shuttle bus to after care so that she could ride it home, otherwise it'd be making a one-way trip.

We actually have a bike trailer that fits two kids, so DS1 and DS2 could ride in it, with *just* enough storage space for their backpacks. So in theory I could ride behind DD on her own bike, pulling the boys, all the way to school. Then lock DD's bike there and ride the empty trailer back home (I work from home). Maybe I'll try that at least some of the time.

The other reason/excuse here of course is that it's almost dangerously hot outside for a good chunk of the summer. I used to sometimes ride my bike 3 miles to the gym where I coached classes, then ride home. But I'd be riding home at 1pm and it'd be 90+ degrees outside. I'd even soak my shirt in water before I left and it'd be nearly dry by the time I got home (so it was doing its job cooling me).

Lastly, sometimes it's hard to bike places because the roads or even sidewalks are not safe. Most of the 3 mile route to daycare/school (which is right by the gym I used to go to) is along a boulevard with a 45mph speed limit and 2 lanes of traffic each way. There's no bike lane, and while it's technically possible/legal to ride in the lane, I generally only do that when I'm going at least 25-30mph (only possible the downhill direction). It's not very safe, and I couldn't ride in the lane. The alternative there is the sidewalk, which is weird. There's some ordinance that I think says that sidewalks on major artery streets must pleasingly meander or some shit like that, which means that the sidewalk distance is approximately 25% longer than going in a straight line. Sometimes the meandering is to avoid trees, which I get, but at those spots there are also big bumps in the sidewalk (hello tree roots!). Oh, and every time you cross a minor neighborhood road, the sidewalk turns sharply so that the crosswalk can be like 10-15 feet from the major road, which is super unsafe because then you have to slow down quite a lot and then you're so far from the main road that you have to awkwardly look over your should to see the cars that are trying to turn into that side street and hope they don't hit you when you're crossing. Riding on the sidewalk is way more dangerous at intersections than riding on the road, so they need to just stripe a damn bike lane. There's even technically room, because the curb lane is 15 feet wide (and the other lane could be made slightly narrower), but it would go against their guidelines to make it narrower. I'm pretty sure that studies have shown that when a driver is presented with a wider lane, they go faster, and narrower lanes actually make drivers drive more cautiously/safely/slowly. It's a perception thing.

Oh, and there's almost zero transit here.

Could your kids take the bus to school?

Also, I would contact your city council member or public works department about adding bike lanes. I know around me, municipalities are considering bike facilities and sidewalks more and more. 

We're less than 2 miles from the Elementary school, so I don't think they offer buses. Hence we'd try to ride bicycles at least some of the time. Come to think of it once they're a bit older, we may have them walk - it's a little over a mile, and I wouldn't trust them to do it alone right away but at some point there will be two or three of them going together. But I'll have at least one kid in daycare for another 4 years, so we'll see how it goes.

[InBetweenDays]

Apr 23, 2019 11:23:15 GMT -5 oswin said:

I know that Mr Money Mustache isn't PC and is downright offensive in a lot of his posts, but most of his numerical calculations are sound. Hence I'm posting this old post about commuting costs: www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/

In particular (since it's a long post), this bit:

To put things back on par, let’s whip up a couple of quick commuting equations. Let’s assume the average person’s marginal driving cost is halfway between the Ultra-Mustachian driver figure of 17 cents per mile, and Uncle Sam’s generous 51 cent allowance. So, 34 cents. Let’s also assume the value of a person’s time is $25 per hour, since this is close to a median wage for a suburban commuter. (If you don’t think you’d use your newfound leisure time that productively, you need to think more like an Early Retiree. I used mine for plenty of learning and domestic insourcing).

For each mile you drive across two times on your round trip to work daily, it multiplies to 500 miles per year, or a $170 annual fee

For each of these miles, you waste about 6 minutes in the round trip, adding to 25 hours per year ($625 of your time).

So each mile you live from work steals $795 per year from you in commuting costs.

$795 per year will pay the interest on $15,900 of house borrowed at a 5% interest rate.

In other words, a logical person should be willing to pay about $15,900 more for a house that is one mile closer to work, and $477,000 more for a house that is 30 miles closer to work. For a double-commuting couple, these numbers are $31,800 and $954,000.

Obviously there might be other legitimate reasons to live far from work, but hearing about some of the crazy commutes some people here have makes me wonder why they chose the place to live that they did. Plus of course it's hard to live near work if you want to buy a house, when in a lot of industries (like tech, where I work), you have to change jobs every couple of years to get any reasonable raises. If your workplace is always moving it can be hard to make sure you live really close to it.

Well, we live in a major city but it just so happens that my current job is on a university campus outside the city so I have a reverse commute. When we moved to our urban neighborhood in 2000 I was working about 2 miles from home. I was recruited for my current job in 2014 and while the commute is way longer everything else about the job was a vast improvement (pay, benefits, work, hours, telework option, etc.). 

It would actually be cheaper for us to live near my job, but it makes way more sense to live where we do for H's commute and my commute if/when I ever change jobs.

[wawa]

Apr 23, 2019 10:30:55 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Well, we live in a rural area with no bike lanes and no mass transit. It would take me over 2 hours to get to work on a bike, if I wasn’t killed first.

We have instead been focusing on vehicles with better fuel economy, and limiting or combining trips as much as possible (I do errands on my way back from work instead of making a separate trip on the weekend). Next year C will be attending the school that H works at, so that will be one very short trip in the least fuel-efficient vehicle, and I make the longer drive in the more economical vehicle. For now I think that’s the best we can do.

So not calling you out specifically, but you were first so Im quoting you.

Curious what drew you (and everyone else in a similar situation) to that location specifically and if you have considered or would consider moving to somewhere that allows for a less car dependent lifestyle. Like what were the factors you weighed and do you see that changing for you in the future?

For myself, I've worked in four locations, three employers since we bought our house. We knew I was going to be job hunting when we were looking so we strategically located ourselves as central as possible in the metro area, along a transit corridor (crappy as it is...MARC Camden line for the locals), with at least SOME amenities within walking distance. (A park, some small retail, a coffee shop)

In retrospect I think it was the best choice we could have made given that my career has bounced between our two cities. This job is the first one I've had where my office is transit accessible. If I leave here, that aspect of the job hunt will be a Much bigger deal than it was previously, when I admit I only thought about what my drive would be like and not IF I had other options. Now that I have them I'd be loath to give that up. And knowing how the industry is moving, I don't think I'd have to. Employers in this field are starting to walk the walk not just talk the talk and locate themselves in multi-modal areas as an employee benefit.

[penguingrrl]

Apr 23, 2019 12:24:42 GMT -5 oswin said:

Apr 23, 2019 11:53:56 GMT -5 isabel said:

You're kind of contradicting yourself here. Sometimes people end up with bad commutes because they changed jobs and the new job isn't very close to where they own a home. To your point, it's not always that easy to ensure home and work line up, not to mention when a family has two working adults, they could be working in completely opposite directions.

I feel like DH's commute to downtown is pretty normal. We live in a suburb south of the city and plenty of people around us commute to the local business district (which is much closer) or downtown. My commute is quite long, but there are a lot of reasons (some of them @) that we chose to stay south of the city when we moved (even though I work north of the city).

The numbers you posted are interesting, but there is not a chance in hell we could afford a house twice as expensive as what we own, even though my commute matches up with his numbers. Even factoring in gas and car payments/maintenance/purchasing new vehicles, we don't even come close to what he's suggesting. That said, we did move this month specifically for the reason that our commutes were too long. We spent more than we wanted to in order to be in an area that was closer, but we really would not have felt comfortable spending more to get even closer to the city.

Well, my point is that I get that it's complicated, but there's also this aspect where a lot of people straight up don't realize that their hour long commute is a huge factor in killing their budget. So if you've done the math (which may be different for you, MrMM's case is generic), and you still think it's the right thing, then that's fine. Personally, with my financial situation the way it is (comfortable with significant savings/investments, but not quite near FIRE - I say this to admit to my privilege in making this decision), I will never accept a long commute. Period. Right now I work from home, therefore my only commute is taking the kids to school, and I already feel like I have no time for anything. So there's basically no amount of money you could pay me to drive 30-60 minutes each way. There probably is an amount of money you could pay me in order for me to move very close to a new job, that amount of money being more than enough to cover moving to a different and probably more expensive house (we've done the math on the amount of money it would take for us to move back to California and buy a house near work - it's not likely to happen, but now we know what that number is).

Anyway, to bring this back to the car dependence and environmental aspect, I'll say that there's only so much we all can do with our individual choices. We keep building more sprawl, and sprawl is not conducive to environmentally friendly transportation. So go out and vote for change! I'll be voting this week (yay early voting) for city council members who support expanding the commuter train and building a train station in the middle of town. These city council members are also working for more bike lanes. Voter turnout at these elections is really low, I think 3500-4000ish usually, in a town that has recently grown to 75000+ people (obviously not all voting age, but still). But it's so important, so vote whenever your local elections come around.

In our case we wouldn’t want to live near Hs job because it’s not a walk or bike friendly area. It’s a typical exurban corporate campus that isn’t really near anything. We would rather he commute than be stuck living somewhere that isn’t bike or walkable. When we bought our house he had a different job, in Manhattan. We hated living there (did it for 5 years), so instead settled in our home town, where we have ample family around to help us as needed and the kids can and do bike or walk to school (the elementary school is 1.1 miles, so by third grade they bike alone).

But the concept that you count the time spent commuting should be calculated into the cost is a very privileged position. Hs commute doesn’t cost 1/4 of our mortgage, so adding an additional $477K to that is mathematically impossible despite MMMs privileged claims.

[penguingrrl]

Apr 23, 2019 13:34:34 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 23, 2019 10:30:55 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Well, we live in a rural area with no bike lanes and no mass transit. It would take me over 2 hours to get to work on a bike, if I wasn’t killed first.

We have instead been focusing on vehicles with better fuel economy, and limiting or combining trips as much as possible (I do errands on my way back from work instead of making a separate trip on the weekend). Next year C will be attending the school that H works at, so that will be one very short trip in the least fuel-efficient vehicle, and I make the longer drive in the more economical vehicle. For now I think that’s the best we can do.

So not calling you out specifically, but you were first so Im quoting you.

Curious what drew you (and everyone else in a similar situation) to that location specifically and if you have considered or would consider moving to somewhere that allows for a less car dependent lifestyle. Like what were the factors you weighed and do you see that changing for you in the future?

For myself, I've worked in four locations, three employers since we bought our house. We knew I was going to be job hunting when we were looking so we strategically located ourselves as central as possible in the metro area, along a transit corridor (crappy as it is...MARC Camden line for the locals), with at least SOME amenities within walking distance. (A park, some small retail, a coffee shop)

In retrospect I think it was the best choice we could have made given that my career has bounced between our two cities. This job is the first one I've had where my office is transit accessible. If I leave here, that aspect of the job hunt will be a Much bigger deal than it was previously, when I admit I only thought about what my drive would be like and not IF I had other options. Now that I have them I'd be loath to give that up. And knowing how the industry is moving, I don't think I'd have to. Employers in this field are starting to walk the walk not just talk the talk and locate themselves in multi-modal areas as an employee benefit.

She’s active duty, so I’m pretty sure the military chose her location, not her.

[wesleycrusher]

We live in a city neighborhood and are 2.5 miles from work- conscious decision because we don't want to have a long a commute, so driving takes 10 minutes and the bus takes 30. DH and I commute together and parking is free. Or we could both pay for a bus pass (over $2000 per year). So add up the extra time + cost and it's not worth it.   We only have one car, so there are times during the week that one of us does end up taking the bus somewhere, but as a daily thing it's just not feasible.

@@ I drop my kids off at school at 8 am, and don't have to be at work til 9:30 so I get an hour to myself to get things done, or :gasp: even just sit and relax!  NO, I don't want to leave at 8:35 to catch the 8:40 bus and get to work 15 minutes early.  To me, that is more of a waste of my time. It's the same with walking the kids to school- it would be a 40 minute round trip to walk and it's 15 minutes to drive. Sorry, I want some time to myself during the day.  DH and I do not live near family. We get no time without our kids, unless we pay extra for a sitter. I've seen it suggested many times for people to leave their kids in daycare longer this to get a break from kids.  Everything is a trade-off- having more time to do one thing means you have less time to do another. I am okay with where we are now.

[Vespasia]

I really need to start taking the work shuttle again now that I am done with school. It's free, moderately convenient, saves me the $ I occasionally pay to park in a lot, it allows me to get more exercise walking to and from, and it drops me off right in front of a Dunkin. Priorities! It really only adds an extra 30 minutes to my commute at most but it does take away a lot of flexibility because it only runs every half hour. 

Re: the comment about chips - FIL will throw a bag of potato chips away once there are too many broken ones. I seriously didn't relate to any of the Boomer experiences I have read here until we visited him the one time. NCIS, super warm house, food waste, disposable everything! And he's not even a Boomer, he's Silent Generation!

[wawa]

Apr 23, 2019 13:39:29 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:34:34 GMT -5 wawa said:

So not calling you out specifically, but you were first so Im quoting you.

Curious what drew you (and everyone else in a similar situation) to that location specifically and if you have considered or would consider moving to somewhere that allows for a less car dependent lifestyle. Like what were the factors you weighed and do you see that changing for you in the future?

For myself, I've worked in four locations, three employers since we bought our house. We knew I was going to be job hunting when we were looking so we strategically located ourselves as central as possible in the metro area, along a transit corridor (crappy as it is...MARC Camden line for the locals), with at least SOME amenities within walking distance. (A park, some small retail, a coffee shop)

In retrospect I think it was the best choice we could have made given that my career has bounced between our two cities. This job is the first one I've had where my office is transit accessible. If I leave here, that aspect of the job hunt will be a Much bigger deal than it was previously, when I admit I only thought about what my drive would be like and not IF I had other options. Now that I have them I'd be loath to give that up. And knowing how the industry is moving, I don't think I'd have to. Employers in this field are starting to walk the walk not just talk the talk and locate themselves in multi-modal areas as an employee benefit.

She’s active duty, so I’m pretty sure the military chose her location, not her.

Ok. Well like I said I was asking a general question to all posters just using @villianv and her situation as an example. I get the feeling you think she needed to be defended here, but I'm truly not calling her out. This is a huge factor in what I do for a living and I am genuinely curious about people's decision making process on where they live and where they work and their transportation decision making process.

[hamster]

Apr 23, 2019 13:34:34 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 23, 2019 10:30:55 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Well, we live in a rural area with no bike lanes and no mass transit. It would take me over 2 hours to get to work on a bike, if I wasn’t killed first.

We have instead been focusing on vehicles with better fuel economy, and limiting or combining trips as much as possible (I do errands on my way back from work instead of making a separate trip on the weekend). Next year C will be attending the school that H works at, so that will be one very short trip in the least fuel-efficient vehicle, and I make the longer drive in the more economical vehicle. For now I think that’s the best we can do.

So not calling you out specifically, but you were first so Im quoting you.

Curious what drew you (and everyone else in a similar situation) to that location specifically and if you have considered or would consider moving to somewhere that allows for a less car dependent lifestyle. Like what were the factors you weighed and do you see that changing for you in the future?

For myself, I've worked in four locations, three employers since we bought our house. We knew I was going to be job hunting when we were looking so we strategically located ourselves as central as possible in the metro area, along a transit corridor (crappy as it is...MARC Camden line for the locals), with at least SOME amenities within walking distance. (A park, some small retail, a coffee shop)

In retrospect I think it was the best choice we could have made given that my career has bounced between our two cities. This job is the first one I've had where my office is transit accessible. If I leave here, that aspect of the job hunt will be a Much bigger deal than it was previously, when I admit I only thought about what my drive would be like and not IF I had other options. Now that I have them I'd be loath to give that up. And knowing how the industry is moving, I don't think I'd have to. Employers in this field are starting to walk the walk not just talk the talk and locate themselves in multi-modal areas as an employee benefit.

We live in a similar rural area. H has about a 35 minute commute, starting at 5:30 am.

There is a bus stop about 1.5 miles away, but it only comes a couple times a day. There are no aid services that will come out here, even though we are less than 10 miles outside of city limits. When I broke my right food I literally had no way to get to the office, so I worked from home for 3 months or whatever it was. I could have taken a taxi, but at my expense.

We looked at moving closer to H's work recently. Some houses were as close to 10 minutes to his office. All still rural. Ultimately we decided to stay in our house and add on. Main reasons being:
- A lot cheaper. We couldn't find what we wanted with a 500k budget. We can stay here for 400k, and keep our 15 year mortgage. Taxes are cheaper as well.
- We still have a neighborhood. While we can't take mass transit to work, we can safely go for evening walks or bike rides. Everything we saw was on a busy road I would not feel safe doing so.
There's some other factors like our specific neighbors, proximity to recreation, etc that played in as well.

Could we move to town? Sure. But we have almost 2 acres so we can have a couple of dozen fruit trees, a vegetable garden the size of many peoples backyards and over a dozen chickens. We could add more livestock if we wanted, and food source/quality is a huge deal to us.

[wawa]

Apr 23, 2019 13:54:03 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I really need to start taking the work shuttle again now that I am done with school. It's free, moderately convenient, saves me the $ I occasionally pay to park in a lot, it allows me to get more exercise walking to and from, and it drops me off right in front of a Dunkin. Priorities! It really only adds an extra 30 minutes to my commute at most but it does take away a lot of flexibility because it only runs every half hour. 

Re: the comment about chips - FIL will throw a bag of potato chips away once there are too many broken ones. I seriously didn't relate to any of the Boomer experiences I have read here until we visited him the one time. NCIS, super warm house, food waste, disposable everything! And he's not even a Boomer, he's Silent Generation!

I feel like the Dunkin is gonna balance out those $ and exercise benefits... 😉

[wawa]

Apr 23, 2019 14:06:31 GMT -5 hamster said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:34:34 GMT -5 wawa said:

So not calling you out specifically, but you were first so Im quoting you.

Curious what drew you (and everyone else in a similar situation) to that location specifically and if you have considered or would consider moving to somewhere that allows for a less car dependent lifestyle. Like what were the factors you weighed and do you see that changing for you in the future?

For myself, I've worked in four locations, three employers since we bought our house. We knew I was going to be job hunting when we were looking so we strategically located ourselves as central as possible in the metro area, along a transit corridor (crappy as it is...MARC Camden line for the locals), with at least SOME amenities within walking distance. (A park, some small retail, a coffee shop)

In retrospect I think it was the best choice we could have made given that my career has bounced between our two cities. This job is the first one I've had where my office is transit accessible. If I leave here, that aspect of the job hunt will be a Much bigger deal than it was previously, when I admit I only thought about what my drive would be like and not IF I had other options. Now that I have them I'd be loath to give that up. And knowing how the industry is moving, I don't think I'd have to. Employers in this field are starting to walk the walk not just talk the talk and locate themselves in multi-modal areas as an employee benefit.

We live in a similar rural area. H has about a 35 minute commute, starting at 5:30 am.

There is a bus stop about 1.5 miles away, but it only comes a couple times a day. There are no aid services that will come out here, even though we are less than 10 miles outside of city limits. When I broke my right food I literally had no way to get to the office, so I worked from home for 3 months or whatever it was. I could have taken a taxi, but at my expense.

We looked at moving closer to H's work recently. Some houses were as close to 10 minutes to his office. All still rural. Ultimately we decided to stay in our house and add on. Main reasons being:
- A lot cheaper. We couldn't find what we wanted with a 500k budget. We can stay here for 400k, and keep our 15 year mortgage. Taxes are cheaper as well.
- We still have a neighborhood. While we can't take mass transit to work, we can safely go for evening walks or bike rides. Everything we saw was on a busy road I would not feel safe doing so.
There's some other factors like our specific neighbors, proximity to recreation, etc that played in as well.

Could we move to town? Sure. But we have almost 2 acres so we can have a couple of dozen fruit trees, a vegetable garden the size of many peoples backyards and over a dozen chickens. We could add more livestock if we wanted, and food source/quality is a huge deal to us.

That's an interesting one. Your backyard farmette I mean. I see so many houses in former farmland that grow nothing but grass and I don't really understand it. I grew up rural on 20 acres with horses and chickens and a big garden. I don't understand the urge to be in a rural area without the urge to do something...rural...with it. I'm very jealous of your fruit trees.

(And yeah, my dad drove and hour to work each way. But I had a pony. Lol. Tradeoffs. Not that I was the one making that decision)

[oswin]

Apr 23, 2019 13:38:55 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Apr 23, 2019 12:24:42 GMT -5 oswin said:

Well, my point is that I get that it's complicated, but there's also this aspect where a lot of people straight up don't realize that their hour long commute is a huge factor in killing their budget. So if you've done the math (which may be different for you, MrMM's case is generic), and you still think it's the right thing, then that's fine. Personally, with my financial situation the way it is (comfortable with significant savings/investments, but not quite near FIRE - I say this to admit to my privilege in making this decision), I will never accept a long commute. Period. Right now I work from home, therefore my only commute is taking the kids to school, and I already feel like I have no time for anything. So there's basically no amount of money you could pay me to drive 30-60 minutes each way. There probably is an amount of money you could pay me in order for me to move very close to a new job, that amount of money being more than enough to cover moving to a different and probably more expensive house (we've done the math on the amount of money it would take for us to move back to California and buy a house near work - it's not likely to happen, but now we know what that number is).

Anyway, to bring this back to the car dependence and environmental aspect, I'll say that there's only so much we all can do with our individual choices. We keep building more sprawl, and sprawl is not conducive to environmentally friendly transportation. So go out and vote for change! I'll be voting this week (yay early voting) for city council members who support expanding the commuter train and building a train station in the middle of town. These city council members are also working for more bike lanes. Voter turnout at these elections is really low, I think 3500-4000ish usually, in a town that has recently grown to 75000+ people (obviously not all voting age, but still). But it's so important, so vote whenever your local elections come around.

In our case we wouldn’t want to live near Hs job because it’s not a walk or bike friendly area. It’s a typical exurban corporate campus that isn’t really near anything. We would rather he commute than be stuck living somewhere that isn’t bike or walkable. When we bought our house he had a different job, in Manhattan. We hated living there (did it for 5 years), so instead settled in our home town, where we have ample family around to help us as needed and the kids can and do bike or walk to school (the elementary school is 1.1 miles, so by third grade they bike alone).

But the concept that you count the time spent commuting should be calculated into the cost is a very privileged position. Hs commute doesn’t cost 1/4 of our mortgage, so adding an additional $477K to that is mathematically impossible despite MMMs privileged claims.

Hmm, you're right that his math is incomplete. Rather, he specifies that the amount spent commuting could instead pay the interest on a bigger mortgage, but that's not real life because mortgage payments involve taxes and insurance (we could set principal aside since you're technically saving that money). So in reality it would be a similar cost calculation but a more conservative amount of extra house you'd be able to buy. Anyway, MMM's whole premise is that your time is worth something, and shouldn't be wasted doing things like driving or watching TV. If you believe that your time is worth nothing - or that you would rather spend your time driving than living closer and getting a second job/side hustle/etc, by all means keep commuting long distances.

Now really I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. It's just that I'm trying to challenge your assumptions that you may not realize you've made. I don't agree with a lot of what MMM has to say, because he makes a lot of his own assumptions about people and their circumstances and privileges or lack thereof, but I go back and read various posts every once in a while to get a face punch (as he puts it) and make me rethink why I've made the choices I've made. 

Also, perhaps it isn't in that MMM post, but I'm pretty sure he thinks that living in HCOL places is dumb and you shouldn't do it unless you have a very good reason. So despite his calculations, I don't think he's actually suggesting that you should ever attempt to buy a house that expensive - unless perhaps your income is so high as to be able to afford that easily.

[wildrice]

Biking to work isn't an option for me, but I can take the city bus if I want to. It's one of the reasons we chose the apartment we did - it's right on the bus line to many places, including the university where H has worked since we moved, and where I recently started working. We are a 1 car household so it was important to us to have public transit as an option. We live in kind of an unusual location as a result, but we honestly love the access it affords us. ETA: Living in a super walkable area also means we don't drive much on the weekends. We walked to a baseball game last weekend, and to a concert the weekend before. Most weekends we either don't drive at all, or drive to 1 place. Living somewhere walkable is a huge benefit.

Right now since H and I work at the same place, we do drive. We are reducing our impact by only taking 1 car, I guess, but I know it would be better if we both did the bus. The problem with the bus is that it takes around an hour each way, whereas it's about 30-35 minutes to drive. I have really mixed feelings and admittedly need to probably just take the plunge at some point and deal with it if I want to walk the talk and actually reduce driving. I CAN do it, it's just not convenient, but isn't that the whole point?

The other thing is that the bus has a reputation for being late and for safety issues. I think some of the safety concerns may be racism/classism so IDK. I've taken the bus probably 10 or so times since I've lived here and I've never felt unsafe, but I don't know if I'd feel differently taking it at night.

My H will be finding a new job this summer and I'm really nervous about what this means for our 1 car situation. I am hoping he finds something where he can take public transit or is otherwise workable with carpooling, but it's basically guaranteed we won't be working in the same town anymore and there are a lot of scenarios where he'd end up being forced to drive. So that would leave me with the bus every day, or buying another car. I really don't want another car but I worry about losing my ability to run errands at lunch, get anywhere efficiently after work, losing another hour+ out of my day, etc. The shift in thinking about driving is hard. I've been a city dweller for exactly 10 months of my 37 years of life so the idea of not being able to drive is an adjustment. I took the train to work for the first few months I lived here, but it was 2 stops so I didn't find it inconvenient (though I did get frustrated with not being able to get anywhere easily after work while my H was still gone with the car).

[penguingrrl]

Apr 23, 2019 14:05:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:39:29 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

She’s active duty, so I’m pretty sure the military chose her location, not her.

Ok. Well like I said I was asking a general question to all posters just using @villianv and her situation as an example. I get the feeling you think she needed to be defended here, but I'm truly not calling her out. This is a huge factor in what I do for a living and I am genuinely curious about people's decision making process on where they live and where they work and their transportation decision making process.

That makes sense. I’m actually curious about what drives people to live where they do and curious at how much choice people really have. H and I have always lived wherever one of us could find work. And when we briefly considered a lower COL area we couldn’t get a foothold in as far as jobs. We applied and never heard back, presumably due to having an out of area address.

[scm1011]

Apr 23, 2019 14:05:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:39:29 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

She’s active duty, so I’m pretty sure the military chose her location, not her.

Ok. Well like I said I was asking a general question to all posters just using @villianv and her situation as an example. I get the feeling you think she needed to be defended here, but I'm truly not calling her out. This is a huge factor in what I do for a living and I am genuinely curious about people's decision making process on where they live and where they work and their transportation decision making process.

I live in an urban environment and rely on walking/public transit for 95% of my transportation needs, but I think cost is a huge factor. We really lucked out that we bought in an up-and-coming part of the city in 2009 during the housing crisis. We could never afford to live here now (our home has more than doubled in value in the last 10 years). I see so many friends being pushed to the suburbs against their will because home prices are out of reach and rents are skyrocketing. Greater Boston is fortunate that we have a pretty extensive commuter rail system, but even with that costs can be prohibitive. Monthly passes cost hundreds of dollars a month and parking at the station is ~$9 a day in most places. Driving often ends up being both cheaper and more convenient. 

[penguingrrl]

Apr 23, 2019 14:26:57 GMT -5 oswin said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:38:55 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

In our case we wouldn’t want to live near Hs job because it’s not a walk or bike friendly area. It’s a typical exurban corporate campus that isn’t really near anything. We would rather he commute than be stuck living somewhere that isn’t bike or walkable. When we bought our house he had a different job, in Manhattan. We hated living there (did it for 5 years), so instead settled in our home town, where we have ample family around to help us as needed and the kids can and do bike or walk to school (the elementary school is 1.1 miles, so by third grade they bike alone).

But the concept that you count the time spent commuting should be calculated into the cost is a very privileged position. Hs commute doesn’t cost 1/4 of our mortgage, so adding an additional $477K to that is mathematically impossible despite MMMs privileged claims.

Hmm, you're right that his math is incomplete. Rather, he specifies that the amount spent commuting could instead pay the interest on a bigger mortgage, but that's not real life because mortgage payments involve taxes and insurance (we could set principal aside since you're technically saving that money). So in reality it would be a similar cost calculation but a more conservative amount of extra house you'd be able to buy. Anyway, MMM's whole premise is that your time is worth something, and shouldn't be wasted doing things like driving or watching TV. If you believe that your time is worth nothing - or that you would rather spend your time driving than living closer and getting a second job/side hustle/etc, by all means keep commuting long distances.

Now really I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. It's just that I'm trying to challenge your assumptions that you may not realize you've made. I don't agree with a lot of what MMM has to say, because he makes a lot of his own assumptions about people and their circumstances and privileges or lack thereof, but I go back and read various posts every once in a while to get a face punch (as he puts it) and make me rethink why I've made the choices I've made. 

Also, perhaps it isn't in that MMM post, but I'm pretty sure he thinks that living in HCOL places is dumb and you shouldn't do it unless you have a very good reason. So despite his calculations, I don't think he's actually suggesting that you should ever attempt to buy a house that expensive - unless perhaps your income is so high as to be able to afford that easily.

The math is flawed, as is his entire mindset with it. It presumes a desire to live right where the jobs are, which isn’t always desirable (and ignores the very real fact that most people I know change jobs every several years, so unless you’re planning to move each time a long commute at some point is often reality). H and I considered lower COL areas and couldn’t get a foothold in the job market.

I’ll admit I occasionally hate read MMM because he has such a privileged world view, and one that doesn’t allow for others to have different preferences than him. I remember him decrying people who claim they can’t afford to travel because “camping is cheap.” There was no consideration for the fact that some of us fear and loath nature and would gladly stay home rather than camp (in some ways I’m an environmentalists dream; I want to preserve huge swaths of nature for so many reasons and not touch it or go near it lol). I definitely feel like his mindset is basically that everyone can and should think like him and live like him and wanting other things is wrong, which bugs me.

[Vespasia]

Apr 23, 2019 14:06:52 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:54:03 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I really need to start taking the work shuttle again now that I am done with school. It's free, moderately convenient, saves me the $ I occasionally pay to park in a lot, it allows me to get more exercise walking to and from, and it drops me off right in front of a Dunkin. Priorities! It really only adds an extra 30 minutes to my commute at most but it does take away a lot of flexibility because it only runs every half hour. 

Re: the comment about chips - FIL will throw a bag of potato chips away once there are too many broken ones. I seriously didn't relate to any of the Boomer experiences I have read here until we visited him the one time. NCIS, super warm house, food waste, disposable everything! And he's not even a Boomer, he's Silent Generation!

I feel like the Dunkin is gonna balance out those $ and exercise benefits... 😉

Well right now I stop at Starbucks a few times a week so it would still be an improvement! 

[InBetweenDays]

Apr 23, 2019 14:26:57 GMT -5 oswin said:

Apr 23, 2019 13:38:55 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

In our case we wouldn’t want to live near Hs job because it’s not a walk or bike friendly area. It’s a typical exurban corporate campus that isn’t really near anything. We would rather he commute than be stuck living somewhere that isn’t bike or walkable. When we bought our house he had a different job, in Manhattan. We hated living there (did it for 5 years), so instead settled in our home town, where we have ample family around to help us as needed and the kids can and do bike or walk to school (the elementary school is 1.1 miles, so by third grade they bike alone).

But the concept that you count the time spent commuting should be calculated into the cost is a very privileged position. Hs commute doesn’t cost 1/4 of our mortgage, so adding an additional $477K to that is mathematically impossible despite MMMs privileged claims.

Hmm, you're right that his math is incomplete. Rather, he specifies that the amount spent commuting could instead pay the interest on a bigger mortgage, but that's not real life because mortgage payments involve taxes and insurance (we could set principal aside since you're technically saving that money). So in reality it would be a similar cost calculation but a more conservative amount of extra house you'd be able to buy. Anyway, MMM's whole premise is that your time is worth something, and shouldn't be wasted doing things like driving or watching TV. If you believe that your time is worth nothing - or that you would rather spend your time driving than living closer and getting a second job/side hustle/etc, by all means keep commuting long distances.

Now really I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. It's just that I'm trying to challenge your assumptions that you may not realize you've made. I don't agree with a lot of what MMM has to say, because he makes a lot of his own assumptions about people and their circumstances and privileges or lack thereof, but I go back and read various posts every once in a while to get a face punch (as he puts it) and make me rethink why I've made the choices I've made. 

Also, perhaps it isn't in that MMM post, but I'm pretty sure he thinks that living in HCOL places is dumb and you shouldn't do it unless you have a very good reason. So despite his calculations, I don't think he's actually suggesting that you should ever attempt to buy a house that expensive - unless perhaps your income is so high as to be able to afford that easily.

But it's also not real life because while your time may be worth something to you, it isn't worth anything to a lender. You're not going to be able to get a bigger mortgage by explaining to a lender that you'll be saving $14,000 per year of your time.

[pixy0stix]

So now that everyone has said why they CAN'T do it, flip the script. What could you do to not commute by car. No negativity. Because I swear, I can't stand these posts because no one comes up with any solutions, just "blah blah blah can't."

[InBetweenDays]

Apr 23, 2019 14:50:03 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

So now that everyone has said why they CAN'T do it, flip the script. What could you do to not commute by car. No negativity. Because I swear, I can't stand these posts because no one comes up with any solutions, just "blah blah blah can't."

Telecommute is really my main option. Luckily the department I'm in is focused on environmental research so they are 100% ok with it as long as I don't have meetings.

But I could also see if the university provides van pools between campuses. I'm only 6 miles from our main campus so I could try and bike there and get a van pool to my campus.

[oswin]

Apr 23, 2019 14:49:39 GMT -5 InBetweenDays said:

Apr 23, 2019 14:26:57 GMT -5 oswin said:

Hmm, you're right that his math is incomplete. Rather, he specifies that the amount spent commuting could instead pay the interest on a bigger mortgage, but that's not real life because mortgage payments involve taxes and insurance (we could set principal aside since you're technically saving that money). So in reality it would be a similar cost calculation but a more conservative amount of extra house you'd be able to buy. Anyway, MMM's whole premise is that your time is worth something, and shouldn't be wasted doing things like driving or watching TV. If you believe that your time is worth nothing - or that you would rather spend your time driving than living closer and getting a second job/side hustle/etc, by all means keep commuting long distances.

Now really I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. It's just that I'm trying to challenge your assumptions that you may not realize you've made. I don't agree with a lot of what MMM has to say, because he makes a lot of his own assumptions about people and their circumstances and privileges or lack thereof, but I go back and read various posts every once in a while to get a face punch (as he puts it) and make me rethink why I've made the choices I've made. 

Also, perhaps it isn't in that MMM post, but I'm pretty sure he thinks that living in HCOL places is dumb and you shouldn't do it unless you have a very good reason. So despite his calculations, I don't think he's actually suggesting that you should ever attempt to buy a house that expensive - unless perhaps your income is so high as to be able to afford that easily.

But it's also not real life because while your time may be worth something to you, it isn't worth anything to a lender. You're not going to be able to get a bigger mortgage by explaining to a lender that you'll be saving $14,000 per year of your time.

Considering how lenient banks are in approving people for mortgages, I'd advise you not to buy any house you couldn't easily afford and get approved for. Therefore if there aren't houses in your budget in a place where you could have a car-free or car-reduced commute, maybe you live or work in the wrong place? Again, realizing that I've got some privilege in my situation, we made a very specific choice to buy waaay less house than we could have gotten approved for. And that meant moving across the country so we could buy a 4-br house that we could afford on one salary instead of a 2-br house that would have sucked up most of two salaries. I'm not saying you could make the exact same choices, I'm just trying to put some radical ideas out there about the kinds of choices you might have. Houses and jobs and cars are something you choose.

[mrsukyankee]

I live in London so public transport is easy. Cities with public transport make it easier.

My H bikes one hour to work from the moment it is light enough to do so in the morning and evening, at least 3x a week. Otherwise, we both take public transport (my commute is between 40 minutes to an hour each way depending on which job). I try to walk as much as possible, use public transport when I can't walk and only use our car when I have to take the dog to the vet or go to field hockey stuff (I'm a goalie so I have a very large amount of kit, plus I take other people as much as I can as well with their kit).

We're hoping to move to a place (if we can sell our house where we'll have more shops nearby as well as the pubs we enjoy hanging out at, so we'll be walking even more.

I did similar things when I lived in Watertown - either biked or walked to work and did the same with public transport when doing other things. I hate driving unless I have to.

[hamster]

Apr 23, 2019 14:26:39 GMT -5 wawa said:

That's an interesting one. Your backyard farmette I mean. I see so many houses in former farmland that grow nothing but grass and I don't really understand it. I grew up rural on 20 acres with horses and chickens and a big garden. I don't understand the urge to be in a rural area without the urge to do something...rural...with it. I'm very jealous of your fruit trees.
(And yeah, my dad drove and hour to work each way. But I had a pony. Lol. Tradeoffs. Not that I was the one making that decision)

I would agree that the majority of our neighbors do not use their land. Most have between 1 and 5 acres in our little neighborhood. A few have horses, a handful have chickens and most have a garden of some size. Only a couple have more than that (goats, sheep and pigs - I've yet to see a cow). I would say the same for most people in our area. It's fairly pristine out here, so we have mostly a park of grass to maintain but are working towards using our land more.
I love the quiet and the sense of community, but living rural comes with needing to be self sufficient in a lot more areas than in town.

I will say if I moved into town I would want something with a high walk score.