Reducing Car Dependence (@ content in posts)

[Deleted]

To answer pixy’s question of what I could do to not commute by car, the number 1 thing would be to switch my daughter’s daycare. I work from home most of the week, but we still have to drive her 5 miles to daycare instead of walking her to a closer one. We do live on a bus line that goes there, but it takes 40 minutes each way (not counting waiting for it). I recognize that we are not choosing the most environmentally friendly option. We considered switching her, but we absolutely love our daycare. Once she’s in public school, I absolutely plan to just walk her to school.

We only just bought a second car, so we obviously carpool a LOT. The one car we’ve been sharing for six years is incredibly fuel efficient. I still use public transportation some, and we walk to things in our neighborhood. When we bought our house, we chose a neighborhood that’s a little less transit-friendly and walkable than our last one but only requires very short drives to most anything we want. We haven’t even put 50,000 miles on our joint car in over 6 years.

The biggest thing that keeps me from using public transportation more is simply time. I’m at a point in my life where I value my time above pretty much all else. And I recognize the incredible privilege I have to do that.

[rupertpenny]

These threads are always interesting and slightly mysterious to me as someone who has very purposefully made the choice to live a car free life. Not really for environmental reasons, but more because I hate hate hate driving and like to walk.

I realize that I am incredibly privileged to be able to make the choices I have. I have a nice apartment walking distance to my office in Manhattan, I’m very lucky! But, while we have always been middle class, we didn’t always have as much income and have in the past chosen to live in shitty apartments closer to work because we couldn’t afford to buy a car/second car. And I’m not trying to say “woe is me! I lived in a basement studio!” I was happy with the trade off and we were lucky to be able to make it.

And even though we are very privileged to be able to make the choices we have, we have sacrificed plenty of stuff that most people act like is essential to living. Namely: living space, storage space, closets, separate rooms for our kids, a playroom/guest room/home office/dining room, outdoor space, privacy, quiet, the convenience of being able to transport groceries in the trunk rather than in our arms, etc.

I know not everyone can/wants to make similar choices, but it is very much worth it to me though.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2019 6:15:17 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

I know not everyone can make similar choices.

I think this is really important to remember. There are SO many parts of the US and Canada where a car-free life is so extremely difficult that it’s near impossible, and many people don’t have the privilege of being able to choose where they live or where they work.

In these areas, living a “car-free” life doesn’t mean that cars aren’t driven — they are just driven by someone else (delivery drivers, Uber/taxi drivers, neighbors who carpool). It would have been great if these areas had been planned with some forethought about reliance on cars and introduction of mass transit — but they weren’t. So those of us who live in these areas generally have to make other choices to offset our reliance on vehicles (fuel efficiency, shorter/fewer trips, etc).

I’m not trying to pretend that there aren’t other things I can do. Does C have to participate in tee ball (a 20-minute drive away) three times a week? Of course not. We could cut his activities, make fewer trips, buy a different car. I acknowledge that there are many choices we make daily that contribute to increased emissions and waste that have a negative impact on the environment, and we can certainly do better. But there are also a lot of things that we currently can’t control (lack of mass transit, lack of bike lanes, distance between places).


I guess my takeaway from this thread is to identify what I can and can’t control, and focus my efforts on those things that I change, while trying to gain influence on things that aren’t currently in my sphere of control.

[audette]

Apr 23, 2019 22:17:06 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 23, 2019 20:39:03 GMT -5 audette said:

Because it is smug as fuck.

It is incredibly privileged to be able to live walkable/bikeable to work/school/daily errands.  For vast numbers of people in the US.  _Huge_ numbers of people.  To act like it's just a "oh, golly gosh, I didn't think about living close to work" sort of thing is ludicrous.


Come on.



I mean, if you want to focus on the positive, sure, I telecommuted for over a decade.  We were a single car household for a couple years.  When we lived walkable to the grocery store, I walked there with a backpack to carry home my groceries a couple times a week.  I've done transit when it was an option, and enjoyed the fact I could knit while getting where I needed to go.  I group errands, and try to minimize the number of trips I take.

But, let's at least attempt to realize these options are not viable for many people for a whole lot of reasons that are usually beyond their own choices.

And still not one positive. Lol! Ok. It’s also smug as fuck to assume everyone has reliable transportation to not have to deal with shitty public transportation, but whatevs. I can play this game all day.

Not everyone where I live has reliable vehicle options. And that restricts their options and means they do not have access to many things other folks take for granted.

Because of that I have ended up being a backup for friends when their kids need picking up at school, or need rides to other basic things. Or modifying my plans to accommodate those without reliable vehicle transport. Of course, all of that then ends up increasing my reliance on vehicles.

Have you ever lived outside a major metro area? I am not just saying transit options are shitty here. They don't exist. And this is not even a small town - the metro area is almost up to a half million.

[jeaniebueller]

I won't rehash anything that hasn't already been said but we live in a rural area due to the nature of my H's work and public transportation options are next to nothing.

[anastasia517]

For what my husband and I can and are doing so far:

- We have 1 car, so we typically carpool. Now that the university year is done he drops me off then heads to work and the timing work great. If I finish before him, I bus to his work. During the year he drops me off then has an hour to kill before class, which is less ideal, but we still carpool because we have no other choice.

- We do all our errands at the same time.

- Our only vehicle is a hatchback. 4 wheel drive would be better for the snow, but we don’t need a bigger vehicle.

- My husband typically picks up groceries when he is leaving work. This doesn’t require any extra driving, he just brings everything to his car then heads home.

- I suppose this fits here... I work 4 10s, so that’s one day less commuting each week.

- Most things we do are in the same area of town, including two of our siblings and our parents. We don’t have to go on long drives or fly to see them.

- Even though we are out of the main part of the city, my commute is only 15 minutes. When we were looking at places, we made sure to stay as close as we could to jobs/school as we could.

[abs]

Very slight @mention in 2nd paragraph.

I live in Houston. It is not practical at all to live a car free life here. It just isn't. There are things we do to minimize our environmental impact but limiting how often we drive is not one of them.

I DO walk DD to and from school most days. It's a 7 minute walk so unless it is pouring down rain (which happens a lot honestly) or is over 90 degrees we walk.

DH works 30 miles from home. Would he like to work closer? Absolutely. Has he tried to get a job closer to home? Absolutely. Is it that easy? Not at all. He does telecommute one day a week but he is a manager and his job requires him to be at the office a lot of the time. No, we aren't moving closer to his job because jobs aren't forever. Moving isn't exactly environmentally friendly either. Carpooling? No, his co-workers live all over the city. For perspective, Houston is the size of a small state. Everyone lives all over.

If there was a park and ride or mass transportation option to get to his office he would gladly take it. There isn't. Car it is. He has a small four door gas efficient car.

As for me, we live in a suburban community. In theory we are close enough to the grocery store to walk but in actuality nope. I'm not going to walk across a freeway to get there and back. I'm just not. There have been some changes in adding more side walks and bike lanes in the city itself but until there is a viable mass transit system in the suburbs that works for most people we are going to be living the car life.

Oh, and no. I did not choose to live in Houston. My parents moved here when I was 5 for my dad's job. Now DH and I have aging parents that will require some help in the very near future that live here. I have zero desire to move away from them to get to a more pedestrian friendly place. Moving out of Houston IS in a long term goal (mostly because I can't even take the heat anymore) but in the short term we are here.

There are other things I can do. I personally don't drive a ton. We recycle. We don't use a lot of plastic. We've reduced our paper towel usage significantly. I swear I am not trying to be defensive or be like "but I can't" but there are definitely places where there are large barriers to significantly reducing car dependency. Not all cities are created equally here. In rural towns I imagine it's even harder.

[pixy0stix]

Pretty fitting that I woke up to this today: kdvr.com/2019/04/24/colorados-air-quality-is-getting-worse-with-growing-population-new-report-says/

I'm sure every one of those people who have moved here have very good "reasons" as to why they need to drive. CO has turrrrrrible air quality. We had a couple in our neighborhood that moved in and out of CO in 2 years because of how badly it affected the husband's health.

To answer the question above about have I lived in a rural area - yeah, I grew up in western NE. All the stores were 20 miles away, and Walmart was 70. We also didn't have money for gas, so I'm sure that evened out the emissions playing field a bit. ETA: I also don't currently live in a major metro area, so there's that, too.

[heyjude]

These conversations are always so black and white when in reality our lives are more shades of gray. In my working life I’ve done everything from walk to work, to the extreme other end, drive solo to work and almost every combination in between. These decisions are all driven by housing, my job, husband’s job, health, and the various little people who have entered our lives and their stages/needs including their schools. Change any tiny factor above and the ability move oneself from point A to point B changes. For example my husband recently got a new job putting him closer to mine and with a more patient work environment. This has allowed us to go back to carpooling. All 4 us going 4 different locations and back all together. It’s a bit maddening but working, but only because a tiny change in our life.

As a quick tangent: Someone mentioned “why don’t your kids just take a bus to school.” Which only works in districts WITH bus transportation. Ours axed busses for almost all kids over a decade ago. But when you don’t properly fund schools something has to give...

[pixy0stix]

Apr 24, 2019 8:27:07 GMT -5 heyjude said:

As a quick tangent: Someone mentioned “why don’t your kids just take a bus to school.” Which only works in districts WITH bus transportation. Ours axed busses for almost all kids over a decade ago. But when you don’t properly fund schools something has to give...

I was going to say, the quickest way to blow up a conversation like this is to talk about school car lines.

[Deleted]

This is another area where what we really need is large scale government intervention. Again, I am NOT saying that individuals shouldn’t do what they can to reduce their car usage. But we really really need large scale intervention.

Think of the northeast corridor where Amtrak operates. There is NO reason anyone should be flying DC to NY. Or should be driving from NY to Boston. But Amtrak is slow enough and has enough delays and flights can be found cheaply enough that it often makes sense. There is no reason we shouldn’t have a high speed train connecting most of the cities on the east coast. Milwaukee and Madison are 70 miles apart. There is NO reason they shouldn’t be connected by high speed rail.

A lot of the “I can’t” reasons people have for not reducing their car usage is because our country has designed its infrastructure around the car! So on most places, not using a car requires a lot more planning and going against the grain. We need to do the opposite - we need to plan our infrastructure so that it takes more effort to use a car than alternative methods.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2019 8:29:14 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:27:07 GMT -5 heyjude said:

As a quick tangent: Someone mentioned “why don’t your kids just take a bus to school.” Which only works in districts WITH bus transportation. Ours axed busses for almost all kids over a decade ago. But when you don’t properly fund schools something has to give...

I was going to say, the quickest way to blow up a conversation like this is to talk about school car lines.

I am SO GLAD we live walking distance to the school we hope to send our daughter to. SO GLAD.

[abs]

Apr 24, 2019 8:29:14 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:27:07 GMT -5 heyjude said:

As a quick tangent: Someone mentioned “why don’t your kids just take a bus to school.” Which only works in districts WITH bus transportation. Ours axed busses for almost all kids over a decade ago. But when you don’t properly fund schools something has to give...

I was going to say, the quickest way to blow up a conversation like this is to talk about school car lines.

Yeah if there weren't a million parents sitting in the car line with their engines on for 30+ minutes a day this would probably be enough to save the planet.

Kidding.  Mostly.  

Here you have to live over 2 miles away to qualify for bus service.  A lot of kids do bike or walk but not enough.

[wawa]

Apr 24, 2019 6:37:55 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Apr 24, 2019 6:15:17 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

I know not everyone can make similar choices.

I think this is really important to remember. There are SO many parts of the US and Canada where a car-free life is so extremely difficult that it’s near impossible, and many people don’t have the privilege of being able to choose where they live or where they work.

In these areas, living a “car-free” life doesn’t mean that cars aren’t driven — they are just driven by someone else (delivery drivers, Uber/taxi drivers, neighbors who carpool). It would have been great if these areas had been planned with some forethought about reliance on cars and introduction of mass transit — but they weren’t. So those of us who live in these areas generally have to make other choices to offset our reliance on vehicles (fuel efficiency, shorter/fewer trips, etc).

I’m not trying to pretend that there aren’t other things I can do. Does C have to participate in tee ball (a 20-minute drive away) three times a week? Of course not. We could cut his activities, make fewer trips, buy a different car. I acknowledge that there are many choices we make daily that contribute to increased emissions and waste that have a negative impact on the environment, and we can certainly do better. But there are also a lot of things that we currently can’t control (lack of mass transit, lack of bike lanes, distance between places).


I guess my takeaway from this thread is to identify what I can and can’t control, and focus my efforts on those things that I change, while trying to gain influence on things that aren’t currently in my sphere of control.

Yes that last paragraph was exactly what I was hoping for when I started the thread!

Nobody is perfect and everyone has their own limitations. But everyone here can likely do SOMETHING. Even if that something is just sending an email to your local electeds on a regular basis asking for a bike lane on the road that leads to your office.

I started the thread because I, person who WORKS IN TRANSPORTATION, just learned that there is a cheaper transit option to my office than I was previously aware of. So if I do this shit all day and missed that option, it was worth asking others to periodically review your options. But maybe you have none. Lots do. It sucks. So Push for telecommute. Keep up on your local planning process to ask for what you and your neighbors need to be less car dependent. And stop fucking telling me that it's hard. I know that. What else is new.

[pixy0stix]

Apr 24, 2019 8:33:31 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:29:14 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I was going to say, the quickest way to blow up a conversation like this is to talk about school car lines.

I am SO GLAD we live walking distance to the school we hope to send our daughter to. SO GLAD.

Elementary is in (safe) bikeable distance, so even when he's little we could turn that into a bike commute. Middle School is right across the street. High School he'll need to ride a bus, but he'll survive.

[juliej]

Apr 24, 2019 8:42:57 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:33:31 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

I am SO GLAD we live walking distance to the school we hope to send our daughter to. SO GLAD.

Elementary is in (safe) bikeable distance, so even when he's little we could turn that into a bike commute. Middle School is right across the street. High School he'll need to ride a bus, but he'll survive.

We lucked out and our neighborhood high school is one block away. Kid is never getting a car out of us!

[pixy0stix]

Apr 24, 2019 8:40:44 GMT -5 wawa said:

 And stop fucking telling me that it's hard. I know that. What else is new. 

[Vespasia]

I am hearing a lot of reasons why people can't reduce car usage because of structural issues in their areas. My question for those people is what are you doing about it? Are you advocating local government to make changes? Supporting candidates in your area who want to expand public transportation/walkability/biking? Or just throwing your hands up and saying you can't do it?

Public transportation sucks in most parts of this country. But it also doesn't seem that people who have the power to affect change in their areas (i.e. a lot of the people on this board) are pushing for this to change. Just because you can drive where you need to go doesn't mean you can't advocate to make things better for everyone.  

[jeaniebueller]

Also as someone who is car dependent but who rarely flies (i have been on a plane once since 2004), we should engage in discussions about that too

www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html

[Vespasia]

Apr 24, 2019 8:47:51 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Also as someone who is car dependent but who rarely flies (i have been on a plane once since 2004), we should engage in discussions about that too

www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html

I fully admit that our child-free environmental benefits are probably negated by our plane travel. We travel internationally 1-2 times a year for fun and I fly domestically for work about as frequently although that will probably go up with my new role. At least I take the train whenever it's feasible?

[waverly]

@@@




We are lucky to have buses in our district for school. I love them so much. My kids know that if they miss the bus because they are messing around in the morning I will lose it on them because I have no desire whatsoever to then have to drive them to school. Its only a mile or maybe 1.5 miles so when they are older they can walk if they miss the bus.

[StrawberryBlondie]

This is one reason (of many) that I can't wait till DH's new teammate is done with her training period and can be in the "working late" rotation.

We've always had 2 small, fuel efficient cars and honestly, that's unlikely to change unless there's something like a robo-taxi situation like we discussed a while back or we move to a place with amazing transit.

But - for about 8+ years, we were able to carpool to work basically every single day since we work at the same place and had similar enough schedules and rarely used the second car. Then, my H got a new position and had to start working till 6 every other month, making carpooling basically impossible those months because our schedules are just too disparate. We do both work from home part time so that helps. But once his new teammate is in the rotation, it'll be once every 3 months so we'll get to carpool much more again.

We also live pretty close to work. When we bought our house, proximity to the office was a major factor.

[lucybrown]

Apr 24, 2019 8:33:31 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:29:14 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I was going to say, the quickest way to blow up a conversation like this is to talk about school car lines.

I am SO GLAD we live walking distance to the school we hope to send our daughter to. SO GLAD.

@@@ content.

We bought our house because it is within walking distance of the elementary, middle, and high schools.  We walk as much as possible, except work. Our house is exactly between both of our workplaces.  We cannot afford to live near my job and H's job is in the middle of an industrial area with very few residential options.  We picked our current location because it minimized commutes for both.  If we could afford to, we would live by my workplace, ditch one car and I'd walk.  We combine errands and drive fuel efficient cars.  We drive maybe 10K miles per year on both cars combined. We also both work from home one day per week. 

As a result of this thread, I finally looked up the bus routes. There is a direct bus to each of our employers within a block of our house.  It would double our commutes from 20-30ish minutes to 40-60 minutes, but would be a lot easier than I thought.  Moving DS' daycare would make this a very appealing option, but unfortunately he has been wait-listed at the one within walking distance since I was 7 weeks pregnant.  Without that switch, there is no possible way I could pick both kids up before daycare closes.  One of us could take on all the drop-offs and pick-ups, but it would require a lot more money in child care expenses.  We currently stagger our hours to stay within our budget.

I recognize my privilege in these excuses.  As angryharpy said, right now, time is money.  I could do something small by taking the bus on H's work from home day when he handles kid drop-offs/pick-ups.  There is always more we can do to drive less. 

[msmerymac]

Apr 23, 2019 20:24:57 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Employers being located in a multi modal area is only helpful if the housing in proximity to that area is affordable to that workforce. The reality is that many people can not afford to live close to where they work, especially in urban areas with a ton of wealth stratification. There is a ton of housing located fairly close to my office if you can afford a 2.5k/month renter studio apartment or to purchase a 1 million dollar condo. Everyone else commutes. And how far they commute is directly correlated to the price they can afford to pay for housing.

I know Boston is a fairly HCOL city but it would surprise me if things were incredibly different in other major cities. In many cities public transit infrastructure helps to offset the car-dependence of those moves to the suburbs in terms of commute but obviously that is hit or miss.

Philadelphia has the highest percentage of people who commute by bike (over 2%) of any major city. Although there are definite pain points surrounding gentrification and wealth (and it has the highest poverty rate of any major city in the US), the fact that there is still a massive amount of affordable housing within the city likely contributes to that. Plus a pretty robust transit system. Plus streets that are set up in a grid pattern (thanks, William Penn). And it's not too hilly, unless you're in West Philly. Of course, there are plenty of food deserts, but it also has a super high concentration of fledgling grocery co-ops to combat that issue.

[msmerymac]

Apr 24, 2019 8:47:51 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Also as someone who is car dependent but who rarely flies (i have been on a plane once since 2004), we should engage in discussions about that too

www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html

Although we do have to drive 300+ miles to visit our families, at least we don't have to fly from coast-to-coast anymore. 

[lucybrown]

Apr 24, 2019 8:34:54 GMT -5 abs said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:29:14 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yeah if there weren't a million parents sitting in the car line with their engines on for 30+ minutes a day this would probably be enough to save the planet.

Kidding.  Mostly.  

I am so easily incensed by the number of people who leave their cars idling all.the.fucking.time.  And probably also complain about gas prices. 

Drive if you have reasons.  But turn your fucking car off when you go into daycare or watch your Precious wait in line on the playground.

[Gato]

I've only skimmed, but has anyone mentioned biodiesel? My H bought a used diesel engine car so that he could use biodiesel exclusively except during the coldest winter months. It is basically carbon-neutral, since it is made from plants, which absorb as much carbon as your car will later emit. We live in a town of 65K residents and there are biodiesel gas stations here, so I assume most big cities would have access to them. Right now, we're paying $2.79 per gallon, as opposed to $2.50-something at a regular gas pump.

We also converted our oil furnace to accept biodiesel (for around $250). It's funny; when we were deciding whether to do this, we asked the place that services our furnace about what it would take to convert. They were very, very discouraging, saying all sorts of ridiculous stuff about how bad this "dirty" oil would be for our furnace. But when they were here for the yearly maintenance cleaning this year, I noticed they are now selling biodiesel fuel oil. So... it's only bad if you're not selling it, I guess?

[racegrrl714]

Apr 23, 2019 20:24:57 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Employers being located in a multi modal area is only helpful if the housing in proximity to that area is affordable to that workforce. The reality is that many people can not afford to live close to where they work, especially in urban areas with a ton of wealth stratification. There is a ton of housing located fairly close to my office if you can afford a 2.5k/month renter studio apartment or to purchase a 1 million dollar condo. Everyone else commutes. And how far they commute is directly correlated to the price they can afford to pay for housing.

I know Boston is a fairly HCOL city but it would surprise me if things were incredibly different in other major cities. In many cities public transit infrastructure helps to offset the car-dependence of those moves to the suburbs in terms of commute but obviously that is hit or miss.

OMG Yes. So much this. And no, it's not different in other major cities. I work in St Louis County (super LCOL compared to other major cities) and still have to commute over an hour. Now, I would LOVE to move close to work, however there are many reasons I can't, the LEAST of which is the fact that rent on a 2bd 1 bath apartment in the area I work is about double the price of what I pay now. And my car gets 36 mpg so I don't spend anywhere near that difference in gas/maintenance. I've been looking for work closer to home, but there just aren't many jobs in the town I live in that are in the field of what I do and that pay enough for me to make ends meet.

Public transit is absolutely non-existent in my home area and minimal at best in the city. I have looked at the most "affordable" apartment complex in the area I work in and what the bus routes would be. I would be working about 2 miles from the apartment and it would take an hour and a half in the morning to get to work and 45 minutes in the evenings to get back home. I am not in the physical shape or health to be walking or biking 4 miles a day (although if I could work my way up to it, it would definitely be good for me! LOL) but the route from that apartment to work is pretty dangerous and there are no bike paths. I'd also have to cross over an interstate. LOL 

My job right now is through a temp agency but I'm hoping to be hired on permanently at my location, in which case I'd be able to telecommute several days a week.

[sillygoosegirl]

Apr 24, 2019 10:09:40 GMT -5 Gato said:

I've only skimmed, but has anyone mentioned biodiesel? My H bought a used diesel engine car so that he could use biodiesel exclusively except during the coldest winter months. It is basically carbon-neutral, since it is made from plants, which absorb as much carbon as your car will later emit. We live in a town of 65K residents and there are biodiesel gas stations here, so I assume most big cities would have access to them. Right now, we're paying $2.79 per gallon, as opposed to $2.50-something at a regular gas pump.

We also converted our oil furnace to accept biodiesel (for around $250). It's funny; when we were deciding whether to do this, we asked the place that services our furnace about what it would take to convert. They were very, very discouraging, saying all sorts of ridiculous stuff about how bad this "dirty" oil would be for our furnace. But when they were here for the yearly maintenance cleaning this year, I noticed they are now selling biodiesel fuel oil. So... it's only bad if you're not selling it, I guess?

Just because something is made with plants doesn't mean it is carbon neutral. See the meal service thread. If the plants are grown using conventional methods, there's a ton of fertilizer, tractors, transportation, and then the processing to turn it into biodiesel. In theory it could be carbon neutral, like you say, but only if every step in that intensive process was carbon neutral.

[sent]

@@@

I tried really hard to stay a one car family. It wasn't that hard. My husband always had public transportation options to take to work and I drove DD and me around to work/school with the one car.

But we finally had to cave and buy a second car less than 2 weeks ago. It's mainly a function of DD getting older and me working once a month on Sundays. DD has dance class while I am at work. This entire school year I had to rely on my parents either taking her while I was at work or borrowing one of their cars to drive to work so my husband could drive her in our car. Public transport to my office takes almost 2 hours and the trains run even less on Sundays so that wasn't an option. We didn't see this type of weekend schedule stuff improving in the future now that we have 2 kids so I guess it was time.