Reducing Car Dependence (@ content in posts)

[minzy]

Apr 24, 2019 8:47:51 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Also as someone who is car dependent but who rarely flies (i have been on a plane once since 2004), we should engage in discussions about that too

www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html

I wonder when the tide will turn on flying, too. Right now it seems everyone loves to travel and proudly chronicles trips taken, but at some point, I think that will change. I used to love to travel, and road trips and flights were a cornerstone of my teens and twenties (and part of how I view the world as I do, and also why I want to protect it), but now I feel pretty strong guilt about it. I’ve already bought carbon offsets for the next flight I plan to take but it’s not really enough.

[racegrrl714]

Apr 24, 2019 8:44:09 GMT -5 juliej said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:42:57 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Elementary is in (safe) bikeable distance, so even when he's little we could turn that into a bike commute. Middle School is right across the street. High School he'll need to ride a bus, but he'll survive.

We lucked out and our neighborhood high school is one block away. Kid is never getting a car out of us!

HAHA My kid too. We can practically watch Friday night Football from our place. lol

[racegrrl714]

Apr 24, 2019 8:45:47 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I am hearing a lot of reasons why people can't reduce car usage because of structural issues in their areas. My question for those people is what are you doing about it? Are you advocating local government to make changes? Supporting candidates in your area who want to expand public transportation/walkability/biking? Or just throwing your hands up and saying you can't do it?

Public transportation sucks in most parts of this country. But it also doesn't seem that people who have the power to affect change in their areas (i.e. a lot of the people on this board) are pushing for this to change. Just because you can drive where you need to go doesn't mean you can't advocate to make things better for everyone.  

In my case, I would love high speed rail. There actually is an Amtrak station about 15 miles from my house and another about five miles from work but the train only goes through there once or twice a day and it's like at midnight or some other crazy time.

If we got high speed rail, we'd also have to beef up bus routes and that's just more money our state says it doesn't have. 

And alas, our area DARK RED politically and is rife with racism and climate science denial. Most people in the suburbs and rural communities around here actively fight all public transportation. Because they don't want THOSE people in THEIR towns more than they want clean air.   It probably sounds incredibly defeatist but it feels like an uphill battle that is completely unwinnable.

[heyjude]

Apr 24, 2019 11:22:09 GMT -5 racegrrl714 said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:45:47 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I am hearing a lot of reasons why people can't reduce car usage because of structural issues in their areas. My question for those people is what are you doing about it? Are you advocating local government to make changes? Supporting candidates in your area who want to expand public transportation/walkability/biking? Or just throwing your hands up and saying you can't do it?

Public transportation sucks in most parts of this country. But it also doesn't seem that people who have the power to affect change in their areas (i.e. a lot of the people on this board) are pushing for this to change. Just because you can drive where you need to go doesn't mean you can't advocate to make things better for everyone.  

In my case, I would love high speed rail. There actually is an Amtrak station about 15 miles from my house and another about five miles from work but the train only goes through there once or twice a day and it's like at midnight or some other crazy time.

If we got high speed rail, we'd also have to beef up bus routes and that's just more money our state says it doesn't have. 

And alas, our area DARK RED politically and is rife with racism and climate science denial. Most people in the suburbs and rural communities around here actively fight all public transportation. Because they don't want THOSE people in THEIR towns more than they want clean air.   It probably sounds incredibly defeatist but it feels like an uphill battle that is completely unwinnable.

Implementing the infrastructure necessary for high speed rail has its own host of environmental issues.

[racegrrl714]

Apr 24, 2019 11:27:07 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Apr 24, 2019 11:22:09 GMT -5 racegrrl714 said:

In my case, I would love high speed rail. There actually is an Amtrak station about 15 miles from my house and another about five miles from work but the train only goes through there once or twice a day and it's like at midnight or some other crazy time.

If we got high speed rail, we'd also have to beef up bus routes and that's just more money our state says it doesn't have. 

And alas, our area DARK RED politically and is rife with racism and climate science denial. Most people in the suburbs and rural communities around here actively fight all public transportation. Because they don't want THOSE people in THEIR towns more than they want clean air.   It probably sounds incredibly defeatist but it feels like an uphill battle that is completely unwinnable.

Implementing the infrastructure necessary for high speed rail has its own host of environmental issues.

Yeah, I'm sure it does! There are no really good solutions out here in the boonies, other than just everyone driving the most fuel efficient vehicles that they can and trying to minimize the number of trips one makes. And try telling any of that to the coal-rollers. LOL

[sillygoosegirl]

Speaking of privilege, I want to recommend the book, "The Color of Law" again. It's been recommended on this board before, which is why I read it. And it is highly relevant to this conversation. Much of our car dependence in America is the result of white supremacy. It's going to be a lot of work to fix it, and in many cases the first step isn't going to be hopping a bike or a bus, it's zoning for integration rather than gentrification, and changing our culture so that white people aren't afraid of people who ride the bus and people who ride bicycles.

[wawa]

Apr 24, 2019 11:41:20 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Speaking of privilege, I want to recommend the book, "The Color of Law" again. It's been recommended on this board before, which is why I read it. And it is highly relevant to this conversation. Much of our car dependence in America is the result of white supremacy. It's going to be a lot of work to fix it, and in many cases the first step isn't going to be hopping a bike or a bus, it's zoning for integration rather than gentrification, and changing our culture so that white people aren't afraid of people who ride the bus and people who ride bicycles.

Yes! Get involved in your local planning process. In every jurisdiction I've worked in the local community has a lot more power than you'd think for at least incremental change, and if you can be one of the few voices advocating FOR more housing near transit and more buses you'll make a difference. Promise. Even if it's slow and feels like nothing at first.

[wawa]

So speaking to the responses I've seen about my comment on employers locating in multi-modal areas. Yes, housing is expensive in most downtown's. I couldn't have afforded a house near my current office when I bought 10 years ago. But that's slightly beside the point I was making...

When my office was located in a suburban office/light industrial park outside Baltimore every single person who worked there had to drive. Every.single.one. From the CEO to the copy room guys. Everyone had to have access to at least a carpool. there were not other options. Closest bus stop was 3 miles down a road with no sidewalk.

That company has since opened a downtown office and is slowly expanding it by moving personnel into the city from the burbs. People who live out in the suburbs now have at least the OPTION to take a bus or light rail to work. People who live in the city and were reverse commuting by car can now bus or walk or bike. A lot of them still drive. But they aren't forced to.

The idea that locating employment close to transit being somehow BAD for employees because the IMMEDIATE surrounding area is expensive is just...well, frustrating. People are already living miles and miles from work regardless, at least if the office is near transit there is a CHANCE to not drive a personal vehicle there.

[jamaicam]

Like with all of these environmental issues, we have to take individual steps but acknowledge that without structural change, it will be very hard for things to improve to a significant enough degree.

What I've found most helpful in this thread is the ideas of what others have done so I can think about what I could do from there.

For me, my kids live 5 miles from their school. There are no school buses and public transport would require 3 different buses. There is a school in walking distance of my house but I prioritised a diverse school with an ethos I believe in over that. However, we do carpool, so that cuts down on journeys.

I also drive a car and not an SUV. Yes more space would be nice sometimes. But more space isn't a need. So I'll take my lower MPG.

I try and combine trips as much as possible and always plan a route in advance.

And I loan my parents my car whenever they need it so they can be a 1 car couple and not have 2 cars.

[mrsukyankee]

Apr 24, 2019 11:41:20 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Speaking of privilege, I want to recommend the book, "The Color of Law" again. It's been recommended on this board before, which is why I read it. And it is highly relevant to this conversation. Much of our car dependence in America is the result of white supremacy. It's going to be a lot of work to fix it, and in many cases the first step isn't going to be hopping a bike or a bus, it's zoning for integration rather than gentrification, and changing our culture so that white people aren't afraid of people who ride the bus and people who ride bicycles.

The number of students who used to come to London with their parents and not be allowed on the bus was ridiculous. EVERYONE takes the bus. EVERYONE. I knew it was all because of perceptions of buses in the US. And that's so wrong and bad for everyone there - more bus riders typically means more buses (cause people make demands for them).  We had to have conversations with parents about the safety of buses and fact that under 16s get free bus passes.

[InBetweenDays]

Apr 24, 2019 12:28:15 GMT -5 wawa said:

So speaking to the responses I've seen about my comment on employers locating in multi-modal areas. Yes, housing is expensive in most downtown's. I couldn't have afforded a house near my current office when I bought 10 years ago. But that's slightly beside the point I was making...

When my office was located in a suburban office/light industrial park outside Baltimore every single person who worked there had to drive. Every.single.one. From the CEO to the copy room guys. Everyone had to have access to at least a carpool. there were not other options. Closest bus stop was 3 miles down a road with no sidewalk.

That company has since opened a downtown office and is slowly expanding it by moving personnel into the city from the burbs. People who live out in the suburbs now have at least the OPTION to take a bus or light rail to work. People who live in the city and were reverse commuting by car can now bus or walk or bike. A lot of them still drive. But they aren't forced to.

The idea that locating employment close to transit being somehow BAD for employees because the IMMEDIATE surrounding area is expensive is just...well, frustrating. People are already living miles and miles from work regardless, at least if the office is near transit there is a CHANCE to not drive a personal vehicle there.

Weyerhauser recently did this in Seattle. Moved the headquarters from the suburbs about 25 miles south of the city to downtown Seattle. It's now just a few blocks from our train and light rail stations. 

[wildrice]

Apr 24, 2019 12:28:15 GMT -5 wawa said:

So speaking to the responses I've seen about my comment on employers locating in multi-modal areas. Yes, housing is expensive in most downtown's. I couldn't have afforded a house near my current office when I bought 10 years ago. But that's slightly beside the point I was making...

When my office was located in a suburban office/light industrial park outside Baltimore every single person who worked there had to drive. Every.single.one. From the CEO to the copy room guys. Everyone had to have access to at least a carpool. there were not other options. Closest bus stop was 3 miles down a road with no sidewalk.

That company has since opened a downtown office and is slowly expanding it by moving personnel into the city from the burbs. People who live out in the suburbs now have at least the OPTION to take a bus or light rail to work. People who live in the city and were reverse commuting by car can now bus or walk or bike. A lot of them still drive. But they aren't forced to.

The idea that locating employment close to transit being somehow BAD for employees because the IMMEDIATE surrounding area is expensive is just...well, frustrating. People are already living miles and miles from work regardless, at least if the office is near transit there is a CHANCE to not drive a personal vehicle there.

Probably a little beside your point, but Baltimore is actually one of the few cities that I'm aware of where living downtown isn't even really all that expensive. I could walk to the company you are talking about (I assume, without knowing the exact location I guess) and my rent is only $1600 a month. Granted it's a 2 bedroom apartment, so people would have to give up their large homes with a yard, but it's POSSIBLE to live in the city for an affordable price.  I think this all goes along with a big cultural shift (that I'm skeptical will ever happen, TBH) that if people could get over thinking they NEED a mini van and they NEED a 2000 square foot home, etc, there are probably a lot of ways they could make it work. ETA: not to mention there actually are tons of lovely homes that are also affordable, to buy, with outdoor space, within the city (just not on my street).

I have a reverse commute into the suburbs and I see the car traffic going into the city every day. It would take a lot to convince me that being in the burbs and driving in is preferable to moving closer or taking public transit. Though, people hate the bus here. Almost every single person I have mentioned taking the bus/train to has looked at me like I'm insane and most have asked in a hushed voice "um....how was it?". So we need a massive cultural shift with that too, plus improved infrastructure to ensure that taking the bus doesn't eat up 2-3x as much of your day as driving does. 

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2019 11:41:20 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Speaking of privilege, I want to recommend the book, "The Color of Law" again. It's been recommended on this board before, which is why I read it. And it is highly relevant to this conversation. Much of our car dependence in America is the result of white supremacy. It's going to be a lot of work to fix it, and in many cases the first step isn't going to be hopping a bike or a bus, it's zoning for integration rather than gentrification, and changing our culture so that white people aren't afraid of people who ride the bus and people who ride bicycles.

It’s been years, but I am STILL salty about the poster on MM who lived in my metro area and was searching for a new city, with one of her criteria being able to take public transit without fearing for her safety. Come the fuck on.

[penguingrrl]

Apr 24, 2019 12:28:15 GMT -5 wawa said:

So speaking to the responses I've seen about my comment on employers locating in multi-modal areas. Yes, housing is expensive in most downtown's. I couldn't have afforded a house near my current office when I bought 10 years ago. But that's slightly beside the point I was making...

When my office was located in a suburban office/light industrial park outside Baltimore every single person who worked there had to drive. Every.single.one. From the CEO to the copy room guys. Everyone had to have access to at least a carpool. there were not other options. Closest bus stop was 3 miles down a road with no sidewalk.

That company has since opened a downtown office and is slowly expanding it by moving personnel into the city from the burbs. People who live out in the suburbs now have at least the OPTION to take a bus or light rail to work. People who live in the city and were reverse commuting by car can now bus or walk or bike. A lot of them still drive. But they aren't forced to.

The idea that locating employment close to transit being somehow BAD for employees because the IMMEDIATE surrounding area is expensive is just...well, frustrating. People are already living miles and miles from work regardless, at least if the office is near transit there is a CHANCE to not drive a personal vehicle there.

Absolutely. We were shocked when H got moved out of the city office and into an exurban one (same company). It was also a tough thing. We bought our house walking distance to the train so we could only have one car. We miss that aspect a lot.

However, NJ seriously needs to up its public transit game . We’re 50 miles from NYC and the trip to Penn Station was 60 minutes when I was a kid, 55 if you got an express train. Now the same ride, with two additional stops, is 90 minutes. His commute to the city office took between 2:15 and 2:30 each way. His commute to the exurb office is the same number of miles and takes 1:15. And our cost for his commute (gas, tolls, car payment, maintenance) is lower than his monthly train ticket plus metrocard was. So we’re saving money and he got back 2 hours a day for an equivalent distance. It’s absolute bullshit that public transit is so expensive and subpar going into NYC. And the fact that service has greatly deteriorated in 30 years is insane. A lot can be credited to Chris Fuckig Christie and his pulling out of a needed new train tunnel and refusal to rebuild track beds damaged in Sandy “because usership is down.”

[wawa]

Apr 24, 2019 12:52:01 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Apr 24, 2019 12:28:15 GMT -5 wawa said:

So speaking to the responses I've seen about my comment on employers locating in multi-modal areas. Yes, housing is expensive in most downtown's. I couldn't have afforded a house near my current office when I bought 10 years ago. But that's slightly beside the point I was making...

When my office was located in a suburban office/light industrial park outside Baltimore every single person who worked there had to drive. Every.single.one. From the CEO to the copy room guys. Everyone had to have access to at least a carpool. there were not other options. Closest bus stop was 3 miles down a road with no sidewalk.

That company has since opened a downtown office and is slowly expanding it by moving personnel into the city from the burbs. People who live out in the suburbs now have at least the OPTION to take a bus or light rail to work. People who live in the city and were reverse commuting by car can now bus or walk or bike. A lot of them still drive. But they aren't forced to.

The idea that locating employment close to transit being somehow BAD for employees because the IMMEDIATE surrounding area is expensive is just...well, frustrating. People are already living miles and miles from work regardless, at least if the office is near transit there is a CHANCE to not drive a personal vehicle there.

Probably a little beside your point, but Baltimore is actually one of the few cities that I'm aware of where living downtown isn't even really all that expensive. I could walk to the company you are talking about (I assume, without knowing the exact location I guess) and my rent is only $1600 a month. Granted it's a 2 bedroom apartment, so people would have to give up their large homes with a yard, but it's POSSIBLE to live in the city for an affordable price.  I think this all goes along with a big cultural shift (that I'm skeptical will ever happen, TBH) that if people could get over thinking they NEED a mini van and they NEED a 2000 square foot home, etc, there are probably a lot of ways they could make it work. ETA: not to mention there actually are tons of lovely homes that are also affordable, to buy, with outdoor space, within the city (just not on my street).

I have a reverse commute into the suburbs and I see the car traffic going into the city every day. It would take a lot to convince me that being in the burbs and driving in is preferable to moving closer or taking public transit. Though, people hate the bus here. Almost every single person I have mentioned taking the bus/train to has looked at me like I'm insane and most have asked in a hushed voice "um....how was it?". So we need a massive cultural shift with that too, plus improved infrastructure to ensure that taking the bus doesn't eat up 2-3x as much of your day as driving does. 

yeah, i actually hesitated to use my baltimore job as the example because it is so affordable generally.  

On a similar note though - this current job, the old office was in Anne Arundel County.  I think there was a regional commuter bus that stopped a few miles away...and maybe a local bus that was useful for nothing to me.  No way in hell could I bike to it at that time.   

Current office location for this company is in medium level expensiveish DC suburb (DTSS - it's not Bethesda, bu it's still not cheap) - I could afford a house or apartment in walk/bike distance here now, but it'd probably be a stretch for our entry level folks.  But you can transit your ass here from all over the metro region with minimal fuss, so sure, the immediate area is pricey, but the "kids" in the office live in apartments all over the area and only one of them drives regularly. ( he lives in NoVA and splits time between this office and our office in VA).  With one exception, our senior people live nearby and can bike or transit in (one does, one doesn't often but occasionally does.  I don't as a daily thing.  To be clear - I'm not like throwing stones here folks.  I drive here almost every day.  I'm actively working on figure out how not to, but for now, I do).  

There's also the flipside of this "where shall we rent our office space (for smaller employers)/build our new headquarters (for the big boys)" question - where there's some momentum at least in this region for these single use surburban intensely car-centric office parks to start revamping themselves to be less so.  Tysons being the big shiny example for the locals.  I mean, it's still....what it is.  Giant Mall.  Huge wide roads.  But now they have metro and they're working on the ped access thing and a lot of the offices are offering all kinds of travel demand management incentives to their employees.  (many of them mandated...which is another thing to consider for those who do live in metro areas and want to get involved in the local poltiical/land planning/zoning process.  Look into TDM legislation)  Things from subsidizing transit for employees to a locker room and shower for those that bike to a corporate zipcar membership and two zipcar spaces in the company lot/garage so people who didn't drive or who carpooled can deal with offsite meetings. And others are redeveloping and infilling with residential and retail to make for more mixed use centers, which at least cut way down on those midday trips, and can have great live where you work incentives.  

This is the direction things are moving.  And yes OF COURSE it's way way way further ahead here outside DC than it would be in say...Topeka.  But that just means that if you live in Topeka you have these examples to look at to see how it might be done, how it might be done best - you can avoid our mistakes!  

[msmerymac]

wildrice, I'm surprised that people feel that way about transit in Baltimore, since it's an old east coast city that has always had transit, but I guess I shouldn't be.

Los Angeles is HORRIFIC when it comes to transit bias. Your car is everything in LA, and large swaths are not well-served by anything other than occassional bus routes, if that. Lots of areas have wide, car-sized streets and long blocks and it gets hot. Yet, they have the highest number of bus riders in the US, the largest bus fleet, and are greatly expanding their train/subway options. But whenever I would take transit to my office I would get concerned looks. "What's wrong with your car?!"

[wildrice]

Apr 24, 2019 13:58:08 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

wildrice , I'm surprised that people feel that way about transit in Baltimore, since it's an old east coast city that has always had transit, but I guess I shouldn't be.

Los Angeles is HORRIFIC when it comes to transit bias. Your car is everything in LA, and large swaths are not well-served by anything other than occassional bus routes, if that. Lots of areas have wide, car-sized streets and long blocks and it gets hot. Yet, they have the highest number of bus riders in the US, the largest bus fleet, and are greatly expanding their train/subway options. But whenever I would take transit to my office I would get concerned looks. "What's wrong with your car?!"

Yeah, I mean I've only been here since last summer, so I am by no means an expert. But I was told repeatedly when I moved here not to expect to be able to use public transit, and my experience so far here has been that most people I know rarely, if ever, use it. I took the train to work for the first 6 months I lived here (to a different job) and whenever I told people this, they were like "oh I've never been on the train! What is it like?" Of course, that's largely because there is only 1 train line so unless you live and/or work on it, it is useless. The light rail also only runs 1 line so it's not that useful for the vast majority of people. There is a relatively decent bus system, but it doesn't even go everywhere - I had a conference a couple of weeks ago and there was literally no way to take public transit there (well, I could take it and then walk over a mile, over a massive expressway, but that wasn't really feasible). And even when I say we have a decent bus system, I mean that it actually DOES go a lot of places, not that it's reliably on schedule or will get you places quickly. I am fortunate because I live downtown (and also because I strategically picked living there for access to public transit). So most buses do pass through my area so I have a lot of different options to take to get places, plus I have a light rail stop literally steps from my apartment and the train is 2 blocks away. But not all neighborhoods are adequately served by bus routes, and even those that are are plagued with buses being behind schedule, not showing up at all, taking more than double the amount of time driving would take, etc. Plus I've heard a lot of comments about safety, though I am unclear if they are legitimate fears or are based on racism/classism. I am guessing maybe a mix. 

My H used to live in LA and took the bus/train everywhere! He did learn how to drive when he lived there, but IIRC he didn't own a car himself. He grew up in London, though, so the idea of driving everywhere really took some getting used to. He still hates driving.

[belovedbride07]

Apr 24, 2019 13:58:08 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Los Angeles is HORRIFIC when it comes to transit bias. Your car is everything in LA, and large swaths are not well-served by anything other than occassional bus routes, if that. Lots of areas have wide, car-sized streets and long blocks and it gets hot. Yet, they have the highest number of bus riders in the US, the largest bus fleet, and are greatly expanding their train/subway options. But whenever I would take transit to my office I would get concerned looks. "What's wrong with your car?!"

I didn't even realize the vitriol some people around here feel against public transit until last summer when we moved to a farther out suburb (due to housing costs). Light rail has been expanding in this direction, and whenever anything bad happens the NIMBYs insist it's homeless people coming in on the trains. "The police in other towns give them passes to come here!" /eyeroll

The fact that our town is slated to get a light rail station in a couple of years was a selling point for us; right now DH drives part of his commute, parks, and then takes a train the rest of the way. 

This thread inspired me to look up the bus route to church; I want to get there early this Sunday but the rest of the family doesn't need to. I was going to drive myself (so we'd end up with two cars) or take a rideshare, but now I think I'll walk the mile to the bus stop!

@@@

I'm also realizing that, once we get that rail station, maybe we could be a one-car family. The kids can walk to elementary school and we can pay for bus service to middle and high school.  I work from home. If DH could bike to the station, we could theoretically not drive anywhere at all most days! It would take better coordination in terms of our schedules, but even if we ended up renting a car occasionally or taking a more expensive Uber ride, it wouldn't come close to the cost of car ownership. This has given me a lot to think about!

[jigsy]

Apr 24, 2019 8:47:51 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Also as someone who is car dependent but who rarely flies (i have been on a plane once since 2004), we should engage in discussions about that too

www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html

Recently Lil Dicky released a song called "Earth" it isn't really a great song, and I don't think it was really meant to be. It is a message song about needing to do something/anything to address climate change. This song linked to a website that linked to one of those carbon calculators (and offered you the ability to donate your carbon offset to orgs working on climate change...so, you could always do that)

Anyways, I was doing pretty good for myself - it is easy when you are single/child-free - until I hit the air travel part. It has made me really start thinking about my priorties. 

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2019 14:43:06 GMT -5 jigsy said:

Apr 24, 2019 8:47:51 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Also as someone who is car dependent but who rarely flies (i have been on a plane once since 2004), we should engage in discussions about that too

www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html

Recently Lil Dicky released a song called "Earth" it isn't really a great song, and I don't think it was really meant to be. It is a message song about needing to do something/anything to address climate change. This song linked to a website that linked to one of those carbon calculators (and offered you the ability to donate your carbon offset to orgs working on climate change...so, you could always do that)

Anyways, I was doing pretty good for myself - it is easy when you are single/child-free - until I hit the air travel part. It has made me really start thinking about my priorties. 

This is why we need TRAAAAAAAAINS. I don’t expect that people are suddenly going to start taking trains from CA ago NY. But a better regional rail system could drastically reduce car and plane travel for these mid-distance trips. A few years ago, I had to travel to St. Louis for work. It takes longer to get there by train than to drive, which is BANANAS. But it’s like a one-hour flight so I did that. Those are the trips we should be replacing.

[jigsy]

Apr 24, 2019 14:53:43 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Apr 24, 2019 14:43:06 GMT -5 jigsy said:

Recently Lil Dicky released a song called "Earth" it isn't really a great song, and I don't think it was really meant to be. It is a message song about needing to do something/anything to address climate change. This song linked to a website that linked to one of those carbon calculators (and offered you the ability to donate your carbon offset to orgs working on climate change...so, you could always do that)

Anyways, I was doing pretty good for myself - it is easy when you are single/child-free - until I hit the air travel part. It has made me really start thinking about my priorties. 

This is why we need TRAAAAAAAAINS. I don’t expect that people are suddenly going to start taking trains from CA ago NY. But a better regional rail system could drastically reduce car and plane travel for these mid-distance trips. A few years ago, I had to travel to St. Louis for work. It takes longer to get there by train than to drive, which is BANANAS. But it’s like a one-hour flight so I did that. Those are the trips we should be replacing.

absolutely. I know that high speed rail has its own issues, but I really feel like CA not having one is a huge failure for so many reasons. 

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2019 15:00:24 GMT -5 jigsy said:

Apr 24, 2019 14:53:43 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

This is why we need TRAAAAAAAAINS. I don’t expect that people are suddenly going to start taking trains from CA ago NY. But a better regional rail system could drastically reduce car and plane travel for these mid-distance trips. A few years ago, I had to travel to St. Louis for work. It takes longer to get there by train than to drive, which is BANANAS. But it’s like a one-hour flight so I did that. Those are the trips we should be replacing.

absolutely. I know that high speed rail has its own issues, but I really feel like CA not having one is a huge failure for so many reasons. 

Yeah, I also get that in particular there are some topographical issues in California. But if you look at the land between Chicago and St. Louis, between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, between Des Moines and Kansas City, between Indianapolis and Columbus, these should all be easy to traverse via rail.

[heyjude]

Apr 24, 2019 15:00:24 GMT -5 jigsy said:

Apr 24, 2019 14:53:43 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

This is why we need TRAAAAAAAAINS. I don’t expect that people are suddenly going to start taking trains from CA ago NY. But a better regional rail system could drastically reduce car and plane travel for these mid-distance trips. A few years ago, I had to travel to St. Louis for work. It takes longer to get there by train than to drive, which is BANANAS. But it’s like a one-hour flight so I did that. Those are the trips we should be replacing.

absolutely. I know that high speed rail has its own issues, but I really feel like CA not having one is a huge failure for so many reasons. 

But we will have one! From Bakersfield to Merced!

🙄

[wildrice]

Apr 24, 2019 15:32:07 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Apr 24, 2019 15:00:24 GMT -5 jigsy said:

absolutely. I know that high speed rail has its own issues, but I really feel like CA not having one is a huge failure for so many reasons. 

Yeah, I also get that in particular there are some topographical issues in California. But if you look at the land between Chicago and St. Louis, between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, between Des Moines and Kansas City, between Indianapolis and Columbus, these should all be easy to traverse via rail.

Yes! I used to drive between Iowa City and the Chicago suburbs several times a year, and I always thought it was a real shame that a train wasn't an option. 

Trains also need to be affordable, though. I was super excited moving to the east coast because you can take trains places, but it turns out I'm too poor for that. We looked at taking the train up to NYC last November and it would have been $250 per person! It cost us probably under $100 to drive, including gas and tolls. I think you CAN get cheaper tickets if you plan far in advance and hit the right timing, but it's a real shame that it's not more economical in general. If anyone reading this wants to educate me on how I'm wrong and the trains actually are cheaper than I'm thinking, I'd love to know because I really would prefer taking one!

[2curlydogs]

Apr 24, 2019 15:32:07 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Apr 24, 2019 15:00:24 GMT -5 jigsy said:

absolutely. I know that high speed rail has its own issues, but I really feel like CA not having one is a huge failure for so many reasons. 

Yeah, I also get that in particular there are some topographical issues in California. But if you look at the land between Chicago and St. Louis, between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, between Des Moines and Kansas City, between Indianapolis and Columbus, these should all be easy to traverse via rail.

THANKS SCOTT WALKER.

Also, if I hear one more person bitch about The Hop, I'mma punch them. We were the only metro area of our size or larger to not have a light rail system. Stupid idiots know nothing. 


To answer Pixy's question, to go completely car-free we would have to either move or change jobs. I looked yesterday to confirm (I had looked when we moved). There is no MKE bus line that comes to us. This may change if certain connjobs actually becomes reality, so to wawa's point I'll be re-checking this in the future. But the closest freeway flyer location would be an hour-ish bike ride away.

I know this because it's a route I used to bike that route in reverse. When we originally bought our house we carpooled daily and I would bike home on Fridays. That was part of the reason we moved there, because it made the single-car lifestyle possible. That lasted from 2006 to 2013 (the biking home ended in 2009 with a job change, but carpooling continued). But my job changes since then have moved me around the metro area so much that we had to move to a 2-car approach.

Now that I'm downtown and the kids will be old enough to bus it next year, I'm going to push my H to agree to carpooling again. He was 100% against it when I started here and is still resistant, whining about how it would be hard to get the kids to the bus in time (no it wouldn't), that he's not sure it would work because hours (it'll be fine), what about soccer practices (suck it up), blah blah lame. But I'm seriously done with his lazy ass mentality. It's 100% doable. Maybe not every day all year long, but certainly more often than not.

In the meantime, we do what we can to minimize everything else. We don't do 1-off errand runs but slot them into our commutes, weekends we single-car it, once the weather is nice we bike to the store/butcher instead of taking the car, etc. I'd even pick the kids up in the bike trailer some days if I got out early enough, though that stopped after I had my bike accident/severe concussion (I'm still wigged out. that's on me, but yea).

We also minimize gas use in our lawn equipment - mowing high, mowing infrequently (maybe once a week), trimming infrequently (maybe once a month), shoveling instead of snow blowing whenever possible (for example, we only snowblowed once this winter), etc. I want to change the trimmers to an electric one once this one dies and maybe an electric mower as well if the battery life has improved.

And now I'm off.

[BicycleBride]

I love trains and I would take them anywhere. Unfortunately, I can’t go anywhere on a train without driving at least 100 miles and leaving in the middle of the night. Last summer H and I went on a cross country train trip (Amtrak) and while it was an absolutely amazing experience and I will do it again, the sleeper cars were so old and in such bad shape that I doubt anyone who isn’t equally obsessed with trains would ever want to pay what we paid to ride on one as purely a means of transportation. So I think equipment is another piece of the puzzle holding back trains.
But also I can’t tell you what an amazing trip it was. You see all kinds of things that there just isn’t really another way to see (unless I guess you are an extremely avid hiker/rock climber). Especially up in the mountains from Denver and along the California coast. Going through all the small towns after we left Chicago was really fascinating too because you were literally going through people’s backyards and it really gave me a sense for the ways the inhabitants lives might be different than mine. I’ll stop now but I could go on.

[msmerymac]

Apr 24, 2019 16:04:49 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Apr 24, 2019 15:32:07 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

We also minimize gas use in our lawn equipment - mowing high, mowing infrequently (maybe once a week), trimming infrequently (maybe once a month), shoveling instead of snow blowing whenever possible (for example, we only snowblowed once this winter), etc. I want to change the trimmers to an electric one once this one dies and maybe an electric mower as well if the battery life has improved.

We don't have a snowblower (easier said than done in some areas, but I'm in the mid-Atlantic and we have a driveway that's a single car width and maybe 3 car lengths). We used to have a manual mower, but it broke (long story) and we now have an electric one that plugs in. We also have an electric weed trimmer. Our neighbor was quite intrigued, lol. I told my H we just have to be careful not to mow over the cord (like sucking up the vacuum cord). I suppose it might also depend on the source of your electricity, but even then, I think the electric would be better than gas. (We have a yard that's "village sized" at .1 acres, so the cord reaches, lol - we have an outdoor outlet in back and for the front we plug it in through the basement window.)

We also compost for our garden and use cardboard to keep down weeds. We only use water on it, no pesticides. We use exactly 0 treatments on our lawn and it looks fine. I think our yard is pretty sustainable. 

[alleinesein]

Apr 24, 2019 15:46:43 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Apr 24, 2019 15:32:07 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Yeah, I also get that in particular there are some topographical issues in California. But if you look at the land between Chicago and St. Louis, between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, between Des Moines and Kansas City, between Indianapolis and Columbus, these should all be easy to traverse via rail.

Yes! I used to drive between Iowa City and the Chicago suburbs several times a year, and I always thought it was a real shame that a train wasn't an option. 

Trains also need to be affordable, though. I was super excited moving to the east coast because you can take trains places, but it turns out I'm too poor for that. We looked at taking the train up to NYC last November and it would have been $250 per person! It cost us probably under $100 to drive, including gas and tolls. I think you CAN get cheaper tickets if you plan far in advance and hit the right timing, but it's a real shame that it's not more economical in general. If anyone reading this wants to educate me on how I'm wrong and the trains actually are cheaper than I'm thinking, I'd love to know because I really would prefer taking one!

OMG..Yes!  Trains are so damn expensive.

I was up in LA two weeks ago for a tv show taping.  It was in the middle of the day and worked with our screwy Amtrak schedules in SoCal.  I priced out taking the train from Solana Beach (just north of San Diego) to LA and it was $70 rt.  It was cheaper for me to gas up my car at $4 a gallon and pay to park in Hollywood than it was for me to take the train. Even the super cheap option (commute train to LA and Amtrak back) was more than driving myself.  It should not cost more to take public transportation than it does to drive.

[Gato]

Apr 24, 2019 10:41:30 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Apr 24, 2019 10:09:40 GMT -5 Gato said:

I've only skimmed, but has anyone mentioned biodiesel? My H bought a used diesel engine car so that he could use biodiesel exclusively except during the coldest winter months. It is basically carbon-neutral, since it is made from plants, which absorb as much carbon as your car will later emit. We live in a town of 65K residents and there are biodiesel gas stations here, so I assume most big cities would have access to them. Right now, we're paying $2.79 per gallon, as opposed to $2.50-something at a regular gas pump.

We also converted our oil furnace to accept biodiesel (for around $250). It's funny; when we were deciding whether to do this, we asked the place that services our furnace about what it would take to convert. They were very, very discouraging, saying all sorts of ridiculous stuff about how bad this "dirty" oil would be for our furnace. But when they were here for the yearly maintenance cleaning this year, I noticed they are now selling biodiesel fuel oil. So... it's only bad if you're not selling it, I guess?

Just because something is made with plants doesn't mean it is carbon neutral. See the meal service thread. If the plants are grown using conventional methods, there's a ton of fertilizer, tractors, transportation, and then the processing to turn it into biodiesel. In theory it could be carbon neutral, like you say, but only if every step in that intensive process was carbon neutral.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it that way.  In the case of our provider, all the biodiesel is recycled cooking oils, so I think it's truly creating something out of a waste product that would otherwise be discarded.  But I know a lot of biofuel companies do make their fuel from scratch, growing soybean crops specifically for that purpose.  

[mssaint]

Apr 24, 2019 12:19:10 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 24, 2019 11:41:20 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Speaking of privilege, I want to recommend the book, "The Color of Law" again. It's been recommended on this board before, which is why I read it. And it is highly relevant to this conversation. Much of our car dependence in America is the result of white supremacy. It's going to be a lot of work to fix it, and in many cases the first step isn't going to be hopping a bike or a bus, it's zoning for integration rather than gentrification, and changing our culture so that white people aren't afraid of people who ride the bus and people who ride bicycles.

Yes! Get involved in your local planning process. In every jurisdiction I've worked in the local community has a lot more power than you'd think for at least incremental change, and if you can be one of the few voices advocating FOR more housing near transit and more buses you'll make a difference. Promise. Even if it's slow and feels like nothing at first.

Yes! Activists in my town just got speed limits dropped on a dangerous-to-pedestrians stretch of road.