The Vow - HBO

[basilosaurus]

I don't know about the group. I know a few are awaiting sentencing and covid19 obviously complicates that. There were a number of plea deals. That's all I know. It all happened as I moved overseas again, so it wasn't on my radar at the time.

I did see A Million Little Things but quickly grew disinterested, so I don't associate her with that, although I'm sure I went to imdb to say "hitg? Why do I know her?"

[Dumbledork]

Ohhh, this is the Smallville actress thing from a couple years ago.

[waverly]

I was wondering if some of those more famous actresses were approached by Lauren and Allison and instead of saying yes like Sarah did, they said no thanks when they got to the collateral part. I feel like if they were high up in it than the media would have mentioned it.

I mean if someone said I need collateral my first instinct would be to say F off, so I imagine they got a lot of no’s from people who weren’t as entrenched. I could be wrong though.

[bronxgirl]

There are still 6 more episodes so I'm sure they'll get into more prominent people who were involved. They haven't even gotten to the Bronfmans yet.


I was really irritated when they were talking about how mad they were when Trump was elected. We don't need these monsters on our side.

[basilosaurus]

waverly, I'm not sure if they'll do it on the show, but I know other people were part of the court, people whose names you might have heard.

But I definitely do not get into blaming people for not saying F off. They'd been part for nearly a decade fore some of this and believed in it some for many years of emotional manipulation before agreeing to what we from outside see that it's horrible.

To me, it's akin to blaming an abused spouse for not leaving because of course everyone from the outside could see what was going on, but, oh, hey, he brought her flowers and apologized. Just like I personally have not experienced an abusive relationship (Thank FSM I do not actually know what it's like to have abusive cult control for potentially since birth. The manipulation is insane and incredibly effective.

We also do not know how deep the control is, potentially from birth. It's a reason I hate a lot of of deep religions, even if they aren't deep cults, because of how they treat "others." It may affect jobs. It may affect whether you can talk to dad. That's just scratching the surface.

And the control goes into job opportunities just like scientology (also a cult in some countries, and here it should be IMO).

[waverly]

I’m not blaming anyone. I was saying those not as deep in it might say no more easily than those that aren’t. Just speculation which I guess will be revealed as we see more of the series as to who said yes and who said no and what their involvement was.

[basilosaurus]

Sept 11, 2020 16:21:40 GMT -5 waverly said:

I’m not blaming anyone. I was saying those not as deep in it might say no more easily than those that aren’t. Just speculation which I guess will be revealed as we see more of the series as to who said yes and who said no and what their involvement was.

I hope I didn't come across as blaming you. It just reflects similar arguments I've heard about not just cults but also abusive relationships, and they have very similar expressions, and I think we need to be cautious about that wording. 

I for sure think there was abuse at various levels, and people can be both complicit and victims. Is it a spoiler if I link to articles about news about on the trials?

[waverly]

It’s not a spoiler to me, but others might feel otherwise. You can PM me if you want.

[phunluvin82]

Sept 10, 2020 8:01:28 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Sept 8, 2020 19:29:13 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Hulu had one, but I don’t remember the name.

Cults and extreme belief. It's next on my quarnbinge list.

Yes, thank you!  That's what I was thinking of.  I am just endlessly fascinated by this stuff.  

And, yes, like others have mentioned, one thing that struck me was that it seems to start out with some fairly run of the mill self-help type stuff.  And then gets weirder and crazier, but you're already sort of indoctrinated at that point. 

I think this is the case with many cults.  Makes me think of Scientology as well.  In docs and interviews, people who'd been in Scientology talked about how, in the beginning, it was stuff that was sort of useful and empowering and that they felt did actually help them in their life.  It doesn't go off the deep end until you've invested a fair amount of energy and emotion into it...not to mention time and money.

[phunluvin82]

SPOILER???

I guess this could be considered a spoiler, but....









Clare Bronfman (the heiress who was funding a lot of stuff for the group, including lawsuits against their enemies/critics) was sentenced today to 6 years and 9 months.  Plus some forfeiture of assets, fines, and restitution to one of the victims:

www.npr.org/2020/10/01/918961767/seagrams-heiress-sentenced-in-nxivm-sex-trafficking-ring-case

And it sounds like she STILL hasn't stopped drinking the kool aid!!

[waverly]

Sept 14, 2020 11:56:34 GMT -5 phunluvin82 said:

Sept 10, 2020 8:01:28 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Cults and extreme belief. It's next on my quarnbinge list.

Yes, thank you!  That's what I was thinking of.  I am just endlessly fascinated by this stuff.  

And, yes, like others have mentioned, one thing that struck me was that it seems to start out with some fairly run of the mill self-help type stuff.  And then gets weirder and crazier, but you're already sort of indoctrinated at that point. 

I think this is the case with many cults.  Makes me think of Scientology as well.  In docs and interviews, people who'd been in Scientology talked about how, in the beginning, it was stuff that was sort of useful and empowering and that they felt did actually help them in their life.  It doesn't go off the deep end until you've invested a fair amount of energy and emotion into it...not to mention time and money.

Yeah I noticed that.  Keith did this all before with the first group of women on the "executive board" who all resigned.  This was his second go at it.

It was a very slow process to crazy, for example Sarah.  Once DOS got going stronger, they started to recruit people who hadn't been in it as long and those people were more likely to leave.  So I think the time they spend indoctrinating definitely helped get those higher up "masters' like Allison, Lauren, India.  I'm not saying they aren't still guilty of what they did but people can be both a victim and a perpetrator. 

A couple of other things I noticed Keith wouldn't let anyone be a victim, that term was never allowed.  It was supposed to be empowerment, but it was really if you are a victim that means there was a crime.  If there was a crime that means Keith and the organization committed a crime. 

The other thing was no matter what, it was always "your" fault.  You (general you) were not enlightened enough, un- fearful enough, whatever it was- it was your fault.  Not Keith's fault that you couldn't understand his amazing material or mission or whatever because he had a 250 IQ, so you know now everyone can understand it.  Even though it was all lies.   

[waverly]

Sept 14, 2020 20:32:03 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

I honestly can’t understand this group or what they offered to lure them in. It’s a bunch of words about empowerment and fear that don’t amount to anything. Usually with an MLM, you get a product.

The product is the classes.  There are other MLM's that offer classes as a product.    I think products are far more common though.

[loira]

The thing that really struck me in this last episode was how easy it is to look in from the outside and recognize that at minimum this guy is a narcissistic bag of hot air. Like when he's sitting there pontificating to the group after volleyball, I was thinking "how do these people not see that he's a complete douchebag in faux-humble clothing? Do they know how dumb they look staring up at him like that?" But of course, like Sara explains, it's such a gradual process to brainwashing. Anyone could fall for it. Nobody's immune.

[Jalapeñomel]

What’s the deal with the long haired cult leaders?

[waverly]

I think he wants to look like Jesus or something like that.

I thought it was interesting that the expert in cults said they don’t go after “weak” people like you might suspect, but after people who are rich and successful to steal their money and get them to use their skills to work for them.

There were no commonalities between those that joined the cult. The only commonality they could find are people in transition in their lives. I think people who are in transition might be looking more for help making their transition which makes them more vulnerable to con artists offering to help.

[Deleted]

Keith was just sentenced to 120 years.
www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/keith-raniere-nxivm-sex-cult-sentenced-to-jail?fbclid=IwAR2KbEHzn5SzMRxZsncaQld_5dPU8jThvPChLoZLb3ip1XvDDHsy9wHCMpc

[bronxgirl]

My mom just sent me the NY times article. I hope he rots.

[phunluvin82]

Oct 27, 2020 15:46:24 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Keith was just sentenced to 120 years.
www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/keith-raniere-nxivm-sex-cult-sentenced-to-jail?fbclid=IwAR2KbEHzn5SzMRxZsncaQld_5dPU8jThvPChLoZLb3ip1XvDDHsy9wHCMpc

I was eagerly awaiting this sentencing today.  Glad they threw the book at him!

[Deleted]

How nervous do we think Alison Mack is?

[Deleted]

Whitney Cummings did a 40ish minute interview with Sarah Edmonson right after the verdict came out.

www.instagram.com/tv/CG3Ki7KHsL-/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[AJL]

Oct 27, 2020 16:25:22 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

How nervous do we think Alison Mack is?

She’s awaiting sentencing. She pleaded guilt to racketeering.

[bronxgirl]

I hope Alison, Lauren, and Nancy all get locked up, too.

[wambam]

Oct 27, 2020 17:39:28 GMT -5 mofongo said:

So glad to hear about his sentencing!!! Alison and Lauren were so gross.

The story is fascinating, but I found The Vow incredibly boring and long. It spent so much time focusing on extraneous things and conversations. It sounds like it was better summed up in other podcasts/docs. I don’t know if I have it in me to watch or listen to anything else. I did read a lot about it, so I feel good, but I wish I’d watched another one.

I gave up. I just did not care about the tangents and I really disliked Catherine. And I’m super into cults and will watch almost anything about them.

[loira]

Oct 27, 2020 17:57:47 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Oct 27, 2020 17:52:22 GMT -5 wambam said:

I gave up. I just did not care about the tangents and I really disliked Catherine. And I’m super into cults and will watch almost anything about them.

And I was expecting some kind of update at the end, like you know where they scroll words on the screen, lol. Stating what had happened since, etc, maybe some mention of what became of India? But, just nothing, we were so disappointed.

Wait, the last episode was the final one? I thought there'd be a conclusion of sorts! At least something about getting India out.

The CBC News article I read about his sentencing showed India with her lawyer and said she spoke out against Keith, so it looks like she got out and realized what a scumbag he was.

[Smolinsk]

Oct 27, 2020 18:04:59 GMT -5 loira said:

Oct 27, 2020 17:57:47 GMT -5 mofongo said:

And I was expecting some kind of update at the end, like you know where they scroll words on the screen, lol. Stating what had happened since, etc, maybe some mention of what became of India? But, just nothing, we were so disappointed.

Wait, the last episode was the final one? I thought there'd be a conclusion of sorts! At least something about getting India out.

The CBC News article I read about his sentencing showed India with her lawyer and said she spoke out against Keith, so it looks like she got out and realized what a scumbag he was.

At the end of the last episode they said they'd be back with The Vow Part 2 in 2021. I started out really eager to watch the show but it dragged on so much that I don't know if I can make it through a second season.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Oct 27, 2020 18:04:59 GMT -5 loira said:

Oct 27, 2020 17:57:47 GMT -5 mofongo said:

And I was expecting some kind of update at the end, like you know where they scroll words on the screen, lol. Stating what had happened since, etc, maybe some mention of what became of India? But, just nothing, we were so disappointed.

Wait, the last episode was the final one? I thought there'd be a conclusion of sorts! At least something about getting India out.

The CBC News article I read about his sentencing showed India with her lawyer and said she spoke out against Keith, so it looks like she got out and realized what a scumbag he was.

No, there's going to be another season.

[bowies]

Oct 27, 2020 18:04:59 GMT -5 loira said:

Oct 27, 2020 17:57:47 GMT -5 mofongo said:

And I was expecting some kind of update at the end, like you know where they scroll words on the screen, lol. Stating what had happened since, etc, maybe some mention of what became of India? But, just nothing, we were so disappointed.

Wait, the last episode was the final one? I thought there'd be a conclusion of sorts! At least something about getting India out.

The CBC News article I read about his sentencing showed India with her lawyer and said she spoke out against Keith, so it looks like she got out and realized what a scumbag he was.

I forced myself to finish the season. It started strong but lost me about halfway through. Far too long, too monotonous. I plan to watch the one on Starz - that one has better reviews. India is involved in that one. I heard it sheds some light on why The Vow ended up being such a mess - Sarah and Mark gave themselves a very favorable edit.

[tacokick]

Oct 27, 2020 18:16:19 GMT -5 bowies said:

Oct 27, 2020 18:04:59 GMT -5 loira said:

Wait, the last episode was the final one? I thought there'd be a conclusion of sorts! At least something about getting India out.

The CBC News article I read about his sentencing showed India with her lawyer and said she spoke out against Keith, so it looks like she got out and realized what a scumbag he was.

I forced myself to finish the season. It started strong but lost me about halfway through. Far too long, too monotonous. I plan to watch the one on Starz - that one has better reviews. India is involved in that one. I heard it sheds some light on why The Vow ended up being such a mess - Sarah and Mark gave themselves a very favorable edit.

The Starz one is pretty good!

[tacokick]

Oct 27, 2020 18:04:59 GMT -5 loira said:

Oct 27, 2020 17:57:47 GMT -5 mofongo said:

And I was expecting some kind of update at the end, like you know where they scroll words on the screen, lol. Stating what had happened since, etc, maybe some mention of what became of India? But, just nothing, we were so disappointed.

Wait, the last episode was the final one? I thought there'd be a conclusion of sorts! At least something about getting India out.

The CBC News article I read about his sentencing showed India with her lawyer and said she spoke out against Keith, so it looks like she got out and realized what a scumbag he was.

India has her own series on Starz that is pretty good.

[bronxgirl]

This may be a stupid question, but is there any way to watch the Starz one if you don't subscribe to Starz? is it on streaming anywhere?