The Vow - HBO

[bowies]

Oct 27, 2020 19:39:34 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

This may be a stupid question, but is there any way to watch the Starz one if you don't subscribe to Starz? is it on streaming anywhere?

I’m waiting for all 4 episodes to post then signing up for the 7 day free trial. Lol.

[basilosaurus]

Like wambam , I'll watch pretty much anything about cults. I haven't watched the last 3 eps. It's just not that interesting.

[bowies]

Oct 27, 2020 20:00:10 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Oct 27, 2020 15:46:24 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Keith was just sentenced to 120 years.
www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/keith-raniere-nxivm-sex-cult-sentenced-to-jail?fbclid=IwAR2KbEHzn5SzMRxZsncaQld_5dPU8jThvPChLoZLb3ip1XvDDHsy9wHCMpc

Amazing that I watched multiple eps of The Vow and am still not sure what Keith was criminally charged with. What a way to make a documentary

YES. It basically just devolved into an hour of the same group of people sitting around and obsessing over news and gossip.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Oct 27, 2020 20:00:10 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Oct 27, 2020 15:46:24 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Keith was just sentenced to 120 years.
www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/keith-raniere-nxivm-sex-cult-sentenced-to-jail?fbclid=IwAR2KbEHzn5SzMRxZsncaQld_5dPU8jThvPChLoZLb3ip1XvDDHsy9wHCMpc

Amazing that I watched multiple eps of The Vow and am still not sure what Keith was criminally charged with. What a way to make a documentary

That, and I think they're doing a really bad job of explaining just how bad Keith & co were. They started to in the early episodes when Sarah was describing DOS and the branding ceremony, but they didn't even touch on the rapes or forced abortions or anything Keith was personally involved in.

Like, he seemed like a huge creep, but not really a criminal IMO.

[phunluvin82]

Yeah, I’ve moved on to the Starz one and I prefer it so far.

[bronxgirl]

Oct 27, 2020 19:56:48 GMT -5 bowies said:

Oct 27, 2020 19:39:34 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

This may be a stupid question, but is there any way to watch the Starz one if you don't subscribe to Starz? is it on streaming anywhere?

I’m waiting for all 4 episodes to post then signing up for the 7 day free trial. Lol.

Genius!  I'll do this, too.

[tacokick]

Oct 27, 2020 19:39:34 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

This may be a stupid question, but is there any way to watch the Starz one if you don't subscribe to Starz? is it on streaming anywhere?

Amazon Prime had it for 99¢ a month so I did that. And caught up on Vida.

[wambam]

Oct 27, 2020 20:18:31 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Like wambam , I'll watch pretty much anything about cults. I haven't watched the last 3 eps. It's just not that interesting.

That’s exactly where I threw in the towel

[foundmylazybum]

I barely made it through the final episodes of the Vow. It was so boring. Someone upthread mentioned they didn't like Catherine Oxenberg. On the Vow, I thought she was so boring. I am watching "Seduced" on Starz and of course she is featured a lot more and she's pretty interesting. Without spoilers or anything, the show goes into that the Oxenberg family was more tightly involved with Nexium than what was said in the Vow--and that makes a difference in how I viewed Catherine. I felt like India also painted a different picture of Mark Vicente than how he presented himself on the Vow.

[phunluvin82]

Oct 28, 2020 11:10:17 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

I barely made it through the final episodes of the Vow. It was so boring. Someone upthread mentioned they didn't like Catherine Oxenberg. On the Vow, I thought she was so boring. I am watching "Seduced" on Starz and of course she is featured a lot more and she's pretty interesting. Without spoilers or anything, the show goes into that the Oxenberg family was more tightly involved with Nexium than what was said in the Vow--and that makes a difference in how I viewed Catherine. I felt like India also painted a different picture of Mark Vicente than how he presented himself on the Vow.

Agreed.  Mark is WAY less sympathetic in Seduced.  

[foundmylazybum]

Oct 28, 2020 12:12:42 GMT -5 phunluvin82 said:

Oct 28, 2020 11:10:17 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

I barely made it through the final episodes of the Vow. It was so boring. Someone upthread mentioned they didn't like Catherine Oxenberg. On the Vow, I thought she was so boring. I am watching "Seduced" on Starz and of course she is featured a lot more and she's pretty interesting. Without spoilers or anything, the show goes into that the Oxenberg family was more tightly involved with Nexium than what was said in the Vow--and that makes a difference in how I viewed Catherine. I felt like India also painted a different picture of Mark Vicente than how he presented himself on the Vow.

Agreed.  Mark is WAY less sympathetic in Seduced.  

I feel like Vicentes wife comes out looking pretty good overall and also, it would be interesting to hear the experts speak about people like her who are somehow "immune" to the brainwashing and at what points.

Vicente was in deep, making tons of money, acting a fool and complicit in abuse. Him, Sarah and Tippy (Sarah's husband..whats his name lol?) Had. HAD to have cut witness deals to not be charged.

I will say that in the Vow, Vicente at the very least seemed horrified and guilt stricken that he was so complicit, but..hes not a "good guy"


My favorite character in all this is Princess Anne. (I'm sorry I dont remember all their names so I make them up lol). Shes beast mode and I want her live commentating at ever MLM party forever.

[Jalapeñomel]

The director is friends with Vicente apparently, and the conspiracy is that he wanted to make Mark look good after the whole thing.

[foundmylazybum]

Oct 28, 2020 17:12:42 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

The director is friends with Vicente apparently, and the conspiracy is that he wanted to make Mark look good after the whole thing.

The directors of the Vow were in Nexium!

[Jalapeñomel]

Oct 28, 2020 17:51:02 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Oct 28, 2020 17:12:42 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

The director is friends with Vicente apparently, and the conspiracy is that he wanted to make Mark look good after the whole thing.

The directors of the Vow were in Nexium!

Noujaim took a course in Albany, but didn’t finish. She went back to take it in LA from the encouragement of Vicente, but didn’t actually complete it because he didn’t show up. Amer was not involved.

[bronxgirl]

Oct 28, 2020 11:10:17 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

 I felt like India also painted a different picture of Mark Vicente than how he presented himself on the Vow.

This is what i'm most interested in.  Last night I read an article comparing The Vow to the Starz show.  I never realized that the filmmakers of The Vow were affiliated with NXIVM.  

[Deleted]

I started the Starz show last night and it's so much better. I can't believe in one episode plus about 10 minutes of the second one how much more information has been shared about the actual content of these courses. The stuff about how he portrayed rape and incest is absolutely vile.

Now that I see that the producers of The Vow are Mark's friends makes total sense. The Starz show also goes into the fact that Mark was making money off all the courses India was taking.

[Jalapeñomel]

Oct 29, 2020 10:22:03 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

I started the Starz show last night and it's so much better. I can't believe in one episode plus about 10 minutes of the second one how much more information has been shared about the actual content of these courses. The stuff about how he portrayed rape and incest is absolutely vile.

Now that I see that the producers of The Vow are Mark's friends makes total sense. The Starz show also goes into the fact that Mark was making money off all the courses India was taking.

I'm also curious as to how much he was actually involved in the trafficking part or any of the horrible stuff they did to the women.  The Vow almost made Mark out to be a victim. 

[waverly]

I would be curious to watch the Starz one and compare.

I read Katherine’s book, and yes she was way more involved in taking classes than the Vow showed.

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2020 10:52:11 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Oct 29, 2020 10:22:03 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

I started the Starz show last night and it's so much better. I can't believe in one episode plus about 10 minutes of the second one how much more information has been shared about the actual content of these courses. The stuff about how he portrayed rape and incest is absolutely vile.

Now that I see that the producers of The Vow are Mark's friends makes total sense. The Starz show also goes into the fact that Mark was making money off all the courses India was taking.

I'm also curious as to how much he was actually involved in the trafficking part or any of the horrible stuff they did to the women.  The Vow almost made Mark out to be a victim. 

Yes. Exactly. And while I get that Sara was branded, she also made a lot of money off everyone at the Vancouver center. It's great that she woke up to what was going on around her and worked to bring him down, but the abuse at the top likely looked a lot less heinous than what was going on at the bottom. They were married and living their lives, albeit with weird restrictions like asking if she could eat, sleep, etc., but they were still in a different place than these other women. 

[bowies]

I can kind of understand Mark. He’s not the sharpest tool in the shed and susceptible to cults (NXIVM was his second one!). Once Bonnie was able to get through to him a bit, taking down NXIVM became his new cult. I honestly don’t know how Bonnie sticks with him. His naval gazing and neediness would drive me bananas.

Sarah’s CTJ felt more self-serving to me. If she hadn’t started losing money in the Vancouver operation, she’d still be in. She also seems to be very motivated by being part of the “in” group, and that switched over to leading the charge against Keith once she started to feel less protected by her position in NXIVM.

[loira]

In the last few (agree boring) episodes of the Vow I realized how little Nippy is featured in the documentary compared with Bonnie. The show made it seem like Mark and Sara were kind of the main characters, but Bonnie featured a lot too. But there are hardly any interviews with Nippy in comparison. Why? He was pretty high up in the organization too.

Need to investigate whether I can get the Starz doc up here.

[Deleted]

Holy crap did anyone watch episode 3 of the Starz show over the weekend?

Wow. I was just stunned at the depth of the collateral photos required of these lower-level women. And you can't tell me that with as close to Keith as Mark was that he didn't know about the girl that was kept prisoner in her room for two years and then dumped at the Mexico border after being forced to have an abortion. He followed Keith with a camera crew.

[bronxgirl]

Nov 2, 2020 10:08:09 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Holy crap did anyone watch episode 3 of the Starz show over the weekend?

Wow. I was just stunned at the depth of the collateral photos required of these lower-level women. And you can't tell me that with as close to Keith as Mark was that he didn't know about the girl that was kept prisoner in her room for two years and then dumped at the Mexico border after being forced to have an abortion. He followed Keith with a camera crew.

I haven't seen the Starz show yet, but Mark is so full of shit.  He was such a pathetic sycophant for way too long. In the Vow they showed a clip of his TED talk (WTF??) referring to "the great American scientist and philosopher Keith Raniere."  I found it equally hilarious and horrifying.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2020 12:37:07 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Nov 2, 2020 10:08:09 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Holy crap did anyone watch episode 3 of the Starz show over the weekend?

Wow. I was just stunned at the depth of the collateral photos required of these lower-level women. And you can't tell me that with as close to Keith as Mark was that he didn't know about the girl that was kept prisoner in her room for two years and then dumped at the Mexico border after being forced to have an abortion. He followed Keith with a camera crew.

I haven't seen the Starz show yet, but Mark is so full of shit.  He was such a pathetic sycophant for way too long. In the Vow they showed a clip of his TED talk (WTF??) referring to "the great American scientist and philosopher Keith Raniere."  I found it equally hilarious and horrifying.

Oh yeah. He's a smug piece of crap who had to have been given some kind of immunity to avoid being charged.


It is worth doing a Starz free trial through Amazon to watch. I think there's only four episodes and last night was the third one. It's so much more in-depth about the ways these women were abused emotionally and physically. 

[foundmylazybum]

Nov 2, 2020 10:08:09 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Holy crap did anyone watch episode 3 of the Starz show over the weekend?

Wow. I was just stunned at the depth of the collateral photos required of these lower-level women. And you can't tell me that with as close to Keith as Mark was that he didn't know about the girl that was kept prisoner in her room for two years and then dumped at the Mexico border after being forced to have an abortion. He followed Keith with a camera crew.

I watched last night. It was graphic!


Some thoughts for potential discussion:


From The Vow: Sarah said she never had any sexual encounters wit Keith. She said she was Laurens slave, so she had to be a second tier person like India. How was she branded and going through the same type of actions as India yet NOT having to do sex acts? Was it that she was married and Nippy was also relatively high up? Sarah was higher up in the company but a lower tier slave. 🤔 also omg this is weird.


When India was talking about how she had to bring in her own slaves and how uncomfortable it made her..were the women she brought in as tightly engaged with Nexium? By the time SHE was into all this she had been in it for 6 years and had invested thousands of dollars and tons of emotional investment/abuse.

It seemed like a struggle to get these newer members was that it takes years of grooming.


The whole premise of creating this MLM scheme using human capital is over. The. Top to me.

The misogynism, abuse, horror of it..is horrible.

I wish they'd stop for two- episodes and truly dive into Allison and the Bronfmans.

Allison must have truly believed she was in loooove with Keith and that he a God who enlightened her life. Her ego...must have been huge.

The Bronfmans also fascinate me.

[phunluvin82]

Oct 29, 2020 18:36:40 GMT -5 bowies said:

I can kind of understand Mark. He’s not the sharpest tool in the shed and susceptible to cults (NXIVM was his second one!). Once Bonnie was able to get through to him a bit, taking down NXIVM became his new cult. I honestly don’t know how Bonnie sticks with him. His naval gazing and neediness would drive me bananas.

Sarah’s CTJ felt more self-serving to me. If she hadn’t started losing money in the Vancouver operation, she’d still be in. She also seems to be very motivated by being part of the “in” group, and that switched over to leading the charge against Keith once she started to feel less protected by her position in NXIVM.

One thing that Seduced specifically said in the most recent episode is how, in these situations, the line between victim and victimizer becomes very blurred.  Most of the people involved end up very much being both, not just one or the other.  

I think with Mark and Sarah, it's great that they finally woke up, but they also did a lot of damage.  Same with India even, but to a lesser extent.  

With Sarah, I do also think her husband's reaction to the branding was a huge wakeup call for her.  Seems like he basically lost his shit over that.  I think her and Mark would both have kept drinking the kool aid all the way to jail had it not been for their spouses.  Which, like foundmylazybum mentioned, is interesting given that both were pretty far into it for several years as well.  How did they (the spouses) manage to cut through the haze of bullshit and manipulation sooner, where others could not?  It's interesting. 

[bronxgirl]

Nov 2, 2020 13:57:23 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

[bronxgirl]

Nov 2, 2020 13:57:23 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Nov 2, 2020 10:08:09 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Holy crap did anyone watch episode 3 of the Starz show over the weekend?

Wow. I was just stunned at the depth of the collateral photos required of these lower-level women. And you can't tell me that with as close to Keith as Mark was that he didn't know about the girl that was kept prisoner in her room for two years and then dumped at the Mexico border after being forced to have an abortion. He followed Keith with a camera crew.

From The Vow: Sarah said she never had any sexual encounters wit Keith. She said she was Laurens slave, so she had to be a second tier person like India. How was she branded and going through the same type of actions as India yet NOT having to do sex acts? Was it that she was married and Nippy was also relatively high up? Sarah was higher up in the company but a lower tier slave. 🤔 also omg this is weird.

Very weird! Sarah said that she was brought in (unbeknownst to her) to recruit girls for Keith to sleep with. He wasn't interested in sleeping with her. My guess is he wanted more young skinny waifs.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2020 13:57:23 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Nov 2, 2020 10:08:09 GMT -5 @princessbubbleyum said:

Holy crap did anyone watch episode 3 of the Starz show over the weekend?

Wow. I was just stunned at the depth of the collateral photos required of these lower-level women. And you can't tell me that with as close to Keith as Mark was that he didn't know about the girl that was kept prisoner in her room for two years and then dumped at the Mexico border after being forced to have an abortion. He followed Keith with a camera crew.

I watched last night. It was graphic!


Some thoughts for potential discussion:


From The Vow: Sarah said she never had any sexual encounters wit Keith. She said she was Laurens slave, so she had to be a second tier person like India. How was she branded and going through the same type of actions as India yet NOT having to do sex acts? Was it that she was married and Nippy was also relatively high up? Sarah was higher up in the company but a lower tier slave. 🤔 also omg this is weird.


When India was talking about how she had to bring in her own slaves and how uncomfortable it made her..were the women she brought in as tightly engaged with Nexium? By the time SHE was into all this she had been in it for 6 years and had invested thousands of dollars and tons of emotional investment/abuse.

It seemed like a struggle to get these newer members was that it takes years of grooming.


The whole premise of creating this MLM scheme using human capital is over. The. Top to me.

The misogynism, abuse, horror of it..is horrible.

I wish they'd stop for two- episodes and truly dive into Allison and the Bronfmans.

Allison must have truly believed she was in loooove with Keith and that he a God who enlightened her life. Her ego...must have been huge.

The Bronfmans also fascinate me.

I was unprepared for how graphic it would get - maybe because of how light on details The Vow was.

I would also like a lot more info about Allison and the Bronfmans. When you look at the video of Allison, she looks like she's in a trance when she looks at Keith, like during her song at V-Week.

[foundmylazybum]

Nov 2, 2020 14:43:50 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Nov 2, 2020 13:57:23 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

From The Vow: Sarah said she never had any sexual encounters wit Keith. She said she was Laurens slave, so she had to be a second tier person like India. How was she branded and going through the same type of actions as India yet NOT having to do sex acts? Was it that she was married and Nippy was also relatively high up? Sarah was higher up in the company but a lower tier slave. 🤔 also omg this is weird.

Very weird! Sarah said that she was brought in (unbeknownst to her) to recruit girls for Keith to sleep with. He wasn't interested in sleeping with her. My guess is he wanted more young skinny waifs.

I actually think Lauren tried and Sarah didn't pick up on the messages. THEN when it became more overt was when she started to think about bolting. I think that was also in The Vow if I remember correctly.


A difference between Lauren and Allison was that Allison seemed to demand things and then she also hooked up India and Keith directly. India also...idk didnt seem to be as maybe pushy as Sarah? So maybe she put off some of the interactions by just asking so many questions?

I feel for them ALL.

I even feel for Mark and Nippy. You could see that..they came to this realization of what they had done. The women they harmed and the fact that they also were seduced into those actions..they have to live with that the rest of their lives. It must be terrible bc they know they are victimizers while also being victims.