pixy0stix , this is very similar to the guns issue. When it was black on black crime in the cities, no one cared, and then it was school shootings in UMC white kids and now everyone is distraught. But yet, still nothing is done to solve the problem because the white supremists needs their guns in order to storm the capital building because Trump told them too. So that is how that is going.
Of course I would. However, living in this world daily shows me one is happening right now, in a great number of children right in front of our eyes, and IMO if we ignore that we are failing our students.
We've been failing kids. It's just been easier to ignore. Now that the white UMC kids are failing suddenly everyone is concerned.
You're not wrong, but I still don't think that means we shouldn't do anything about it. It isn't as easy as "how can we make this fully virtual experience better for you?" It's very literally that it is doing a lot of permanent damage to a huge number of children and families across the country.
Respectfully, how each individual weighs this fact against the potential that there may be after effects from mild Covid in some students is really up to them, but I contend that we should be dealing with what we know, now. Everything I have seen shows that schools are not where the spread is happening, either.
Bottom line schools can be open safely. Ours has been since September with only 3 cases and no in person spread. Biden said in his first 100 days he wants to get schools to a place where they can all mostly re-open. This is where the priority should have been all along. Our kids have already given up an entire year of their childhood. Asking them to do more is something I can't even wrap my head around. Watching my then 9 year old over the summer literally become a shell of her former self was terrifying. I don't even want to get in to some of the things she said. Getting her back in school helped tremendously but isn't enough. She sees no kids outside of school and it has taken a huge toll. It can't continue much longer.
Honestly just thinking about how messed up our priorities have been makes me rage. Fans at a football game? Yes of course let's make that happen. Re-open an elementary school? Absolutely not. It makes no sense to me.
I hope once we get adults vaccinated we can really get some good studies on how children spread this. Also, since kids gave up a year of their lives it's the adults turn. As many as possible need to get vaccinated to protect the kids that can't get one yet.
Re: childhood vaccines, I thought this thread on Twitter by Dr. Vinay Prasad MD MPH was really interesting. We may not end up vaccinating children.
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I agree very strongly with this.
And yet I've seen some talk online of some groups pushing to not reopen schools until *ALL* children are vaccinated too. At that point, schools will be all virtual Fall 2022.
If the vast majority of adults who want the vaccine have had the opportunity to get it (which I grant is going to take a lot longer than originally hoped given all of the issues with rollout), then life needs to go back to some semblance of normal. But some people keep shifting the goalposts.
I have a family member who is an elementary teacher that is currently in the "no in-person school till kids are vaccinated" camp. She used to be in the "not until teachers are vaccinated" camp. Before that, she was in the "when case count is under X" camp.
Her stance seems to change whenever we're on the cusp of whatever her previous stance was.
Is there not a 3rd option where those who want to send their kids can and those that don't can continue to do virtual (either through their current school or another program)?
I'll agree that there is no winning though. Parents and kids will continue to second guess their decision no matter what they decide.
This is what my district has been doing all year. Actually the 3 options are 1) full-time brick and mortar school, 2) remote school, where kids attend synchronous learning via teachers from their own school, 3) virtual school, which is I believe mostly asynchronous school that has existed in our state for free for the last decade plus. I can see option 2 going away next year. Option 3 will likely always be an option, but will probably be more widely used in the next years as parents may have found that their kids perform better outside of school, or parents want to keep their kids home longer.
I am one of the many families that is doing option 1 because otherwise one of us would have to quit out jobs (which is not possible for me, and not fair to ask my H to do) since we can’t afford a full-time tutor. So, shame me all you want, but this is the reality for many families.
Having the option to choose remote or in person makes sense. If your child happens to be one that benefits from remote, then go for it. If it works better for your schedule, that's awesome. Then there are less kids in the classroom to be infected.
Not everyone fits that category, so choice might be key here. If we are all forced in person during a pandemic that is a problem, same with all being forced remote when community spread is low, and there are no outbreaks at school.
I'll see if I can find it, but I read an article recently saying that flexible virtual school is actually more equitable than in person school. Kids are able to complete work as they can, between jobs (for older kids), or odd shift times for working parents. So going hard in the paint saying that virtual school isn't equitable is probably short sighted. We need to look at everything that is happening.
And for every one of those articles, there is this:
Which I think was met with a collective "shrug" when it was posted here (or maybe that's one of my online FB groups, I can't remember).
OK, and? Both are happening at the same time because it's LIFE and kids are all different and have different needs. Now what? How do we keep them all safe? Which is the bottom line for this argument.
When we do this *waves arms* people inevitable fall into the argument that is best for THEIR child. Which is a shitty stance for an equity argument. FWIW, my kid is too little to be in public school, but he is in daycare.
We've been failing kids. It's just been easier to ignore. Now that the white UMC kids are failing suddenly everyone is concerned.
You're not wrong, but I still don't think that means we shouldn't do anything about it. It isn't as easy as "how can we make this fully virtual experience better for you?" It's very literally that it is doing a lot of permanent damage to a huge number of children and families across the country.
Respectfully, how each individual weighs this fact against the potential that there may be after effects from mild Covid in some students is really up to them, but I contend that we should be dealing with what we know, now. Everything I have seen shows that schools are not where the spread is happening, either.
I read an article about NY said that the # of cases in schools was actually lower than in the surrounding community. Which showed kids are less likely to get Covid if they are in school with adequate precautions (masking, distancing, etc). Anecdote, but when our elementary schools went virtual parents were immediately setting up playdates and shared childcare situations (because WFH) and you know how quickly masks come off in private gatherings, if they even wear them to begin with. The kids are actually safer from covid in the schools.
Which I think was met with a collective "shrug" when it was posted here (or maybe that's one of my online FB groups, I can't remember).
OK, and? Both are happening at the same time because it's LIFE and kids are all different and have different needs. Now what? How do we keep them all safe? Which is the bottom line for this argument.
When we do this *waves arms* people inevitable fall into the argument that is best for THEIR child. Which is a shitty stance for an equity argument. FWIW, my kid is too little to be in public school, but he is in daycare.
And FWIW here, I am a CFBC teacher, so that doesn’t apply to me. I’m certainly trying to approach it objectively, but as someone in the field every day.
I highly doubt that our district will offer a virtual option at all next year. They are already working hard to get most kids back in person and kids that are failing one or more classes (which is half of all high schoolers that are virtual) are required to go back. Even in DD's school the kids that are in person are weeks ahead of those that are on-line.
State testing can go to hell though. There are SO many problems with education right now and states that have in person learning are focusing on THAT? No thank you please.
I have a family member who is an elementary teacher that is currently in the "no in-person school till kids are vaccinated" camp. She used to be in the "not until teachers are vaccinated" camp. Before that, she was in the "when case count is under X" camp.
Her stance seems to change whenever we're on the cusp of whatever her previous stance was.
Some teachers unions seem to be shifting the goalposts similarly. I hate to sound fatalist, but if public schools do virtual literally an entire other school year, I don't see how they're going to recover from that. Even more wealthy people will pull their kids out and send to private school, etc.
I mean this would not be awful for public schools. They would still be funding the schools with their tax dollars, only now the schools would have less kids to support.
OK, and? Both are happening at the same time because it's LIFE and kids are all different and have different needs. Now what? How do we keep them all safe? Which is the bottom line for this argument.
When we do this *waves arms* people inevitable fall into the argument that is best for THEIR child. Which is a shitty stance for an equity argument. FWIW, my kid is too little to be in public school, but he is in daycare.
Um, ok. I'm not basing this at all on what is best for my kids personally. My older kid is doing fine with virtual school because she's in high school and can manage it independently (and has high income/privileged/educated parents who can help her), and my younger kid is a toddler.
Yeah, but you can see it in this thread with people thinking they're being shamed for their choices.
And yet I've seen some talk online of some groups pushing to not reopen schools until *ALL* children are vaccinated too. At that point, schools will be all virtual Fall 2022.
If the vast majority of adults who want the vaccine have had the opportunity to get it (which I grant is going to take a lot longer than originally hoped given all of the issues with rollout), then life needs to go back to some semblance of normal. But some people keep shifting the goalposts.
I have a family member who is an elementary teacher that is currently in the "no in-person school till kids are vaccinated" camp. She used to be in the "not until teachers are vaccinated" camp. Before that, she was in the "when case count is under X" camp.
Her stance seems to change whenever we're on the cusp of whatever her previous stance was.
Maybe because she’s scared? Or feels unsupported? Or doesn’t have the resources she needs? Or knows the data is being reported inaccurately?
I think there are many reasons for “shifting goalposts” and until we find out what those are we can’t necessarily say those people are wrong for changing their stance.
I have a family member who is an elementary teacher that is currently in the "no in-person school till kids are vaccinated" camp. She used to be in the "not until teachers are vaccinated" camp. Before that, she was in the "when case count is under X" camp.
Her stance seems to change whenever we're on the cusp of whatever her previous stance was.
Maybe because she’s scared? Or feels unsupported? Or doesn’t have the resources she needs? Or knows the data is being reported inaccurately?
I think there are many reasons for “shifting goalposts” and until we find out what those are we can’t necessarily say those people are wrong for changing their stance.
And another reason may be that she likes working from home instead of in school, just as many people on these boards who work at home currently have expressed their interest in keeping it that way.
I thought maybe I could add my two cents as an actual real-life teacher, but I'm going to stroke rage with all the what-about bullshit in here.
I'll just say what I've been doing in my work - "Whatever." I'm so used to people who don't even understand education or teaching questioning/judging/making decisions for that I'm getting pretty good at tuning it out.
So, shame me all you want, but this is the reality for many families.
Who is shaming you?
This was more of a general “parents get shamed no matter what” kind of statement. Facebook, family, media....I don’t think there’s a parent on this thread who hasn’t felt shamed for their decision on school this year (regardless of what they are doing or how much choice they had in the matter).
Bottom line schools can be open safely. Ours has been since September with only 3 cases and no in person spread. Biden said in his first 100 days he wants to get schools to a place where they can all mostly re-open. This is where the priority should have been all along. Our kids have already given up an entire year of their childhood. Asking them to do more is something I can't even wrap my head around. Watching my then 9 year old over the summer literally become a shell of her former self was terrifying. I don't even want to get in to some of the things she said. Getting her back in school helped tremendously but isn't enough. She sees no kids outside of school and it has taken a huge toll. It can't continue much longer.
Honestly just thinking about how messed up our priorities have been makes me rage. Fans at a football game? Yes of course let's make that happen. Re-open an elementary school? Absolutely not. It makes no sense to me.
I hope once we get adults vaccinated we can really get some good studies on how children spread this. Also, since kids gave up a year of their lives it's the adults turn. As many as possible need to get vaccinated to protect the kids that can't get one yet.
You say “kids gave up a year of their lives” but I’m not sure what you’re meaning by this?
My kids have had a different year than we may have anticipated but different doesn’t mean gone?
Is there personal responsibility parents can take for their kids well-being? It can’t all be put on schools. Why does your daughter see no kids outside of school? Is that something you can change?
I just don’t think this is all schools’ fault and can’t be put completely on schools to fix. Not just speaking of you.
I thought maybe I could add my two cents as an actual real-life teacher, but I'm going to stroke rage with all the what-about bullshit in here.
I'll just say what I've been doing in my work - "Whatever." I'm so used to people who don't even understand education or teaching questioning/judging/making decisions for that I'm getting pretty good at tuning it out.
Hopefully I didn't come off that way. Teachers have had the shit stick in trying to make everything work while trying to keep themselves and their families safe.
Even if/when all teachers/school staff have been offered the vaccine - schools still can't open? Then when? When there is literally zero risk? When every single last child has been vaccinated (keep in mind no one is even doing trials on kids under 12 right now)? When Covid has been eradicated?
I don't know. Really, I don't. I want to see how schools will mitigate the risk of covid in schools where the children aren't vaccinated. Because I have a real fear of them dropping the mask/social distancing rules once the teachers and staff are vaccinated. Yes, schools are doing an exemplary job right now of not spreading it within the school walls, but will that change once adult fears relax?
I think there is going to be close to zero tolerance for anything but schools back in school full time in fall 2021. I think even the most ardent, understanding families will be absolutely irate if it can't be figured out by then. It will be so damaging to public schools that I can't even imagine it being an option. Virtual school should remain an option for families who want it.
Biden administration has their hands full for sure.
For many folks there isn't much they can do even if they are irate. Moving, going private, going to a lower cost parochial is just not an option for everyone. It might impact elections and impower a new mayor to be more aggressive with union negotiations but that also won't happen until well after fall.
I *personally* hope schools can open safely because testing is more easily accessed and/or required and vaccine rates are sky high because J&J is approved, moderna/pfizer ramp up production, states improve their needle in arm programs and the public increases their desire for the vaccine. I also hope children and other unvaccinated adults do not act as vectors in this future state of the US. I think is going to be achieved in 2022 and not 2021. I would love to be wrong but I do not think we'll be "normal" in the fall.
So my argument is that if health concerns *now* and/or strong labor forces impact school openings these things will not change by fall unless some children are also vaccinated as that would change the specific risk profile for schools relatively the community as a whole. If we're not open now will a 30%-40% vaccine rate in adults really impact those concerns?
It isn't clear to me if the DOE here can require teachers to get the vaccine by fall. So if we're in a situation with say 50% of teachers/staff vaccinated and zero students vaccinated it seems really likely that teachers/staff/parents will continue to have reservations about full time school and spread from students to adults. This isn't what I *hope* for but seems like a distinct possibility.
Maybe because she’s scared? Or feels unsupported? Or doesn’t have the resources she needs? Or knows the data is being reported inaccurately?
I think there are many reasons for “shifting goalposts” and until we find out what those are we can’t necessarily say those people are wrong for changing their stance.
And another reason may be that she likes working from home instead of in school, just as many people on these boards who work at home currently have expressed their interest in keeping it that way.
I have yet to meet a single teacher who wants to spend more time away from the kids. I’m sure there are a few out there but I don’t think this is the majority. NOTHING about teaching from home is easier for these poor teachers and the usual rewards for the shit parts of their job are not happening.
Bottom line schools can be open safely. Ours has been since September with only 3 cases and no in person spread. Biden said in his first 100 days he wants to get schools to a place where they can all mostly re-open. This is where the priority should have been all along. Our kids have already given up an entire year of their childhood. Asking them to do more is something I can't even wrap my head around. Watching my then 9 year old over the summer literally become a shell of her former self was terrifying. I don't even want to get in to some of the things she said. Getting her back in school helped tremendously but isn't enough. She sees no kids outside of school and it has taken a huge toll. It can't continue much longer.
Honestly just thinking about how messed up our priorities have been makes me rage. Fans at a football game? Yes of course let's make that happen. Re-open an elementary school? Absolutely not. It makes no sense to me.
I hope once we get adults vaccinated we can really get some good studies on how children spread this. Also, since kids gave up a year of their lives it's the adults turn. As many as possible need to get vaccinated to protect the kids that can't get one yet.
You say “kids gave up a year of their lives” but I’m not sure what you’re meaning by this?
My kids have had a different year than we may have anticipated but different doesn’t mean gone?
Is there personal responsibility parents can take for their kids well-being? It can’t all be put on schools. Why does your daughter see no kids outside of school? Is that something you can change?
I just don’t think this is all schools’ fault and can’t be put completely on schools to fix. Not just speaking of you.
Agree schools can’t fix everything and a huge unfair burden has been placed on teachers this year. What they are being asked to do this school year is impossible. For everyone’s sake I hope the 2021-2022 school year is more normal. Writing it off already seems strange to me though.
As for the rest of your point it’s more personal and doesn’t really belong here.
I don't know. Really, I don't. I want to see how schools will mitigate the risk of covid in schools where the children aren't vaccinated. Because I have a real fear of them dropping the mask/social distancing rules once the teachers and staff are vaccinated. Yes, schools are doing an exemplary job right now of not spreading it within the school walls, but will that change once adult fears relax?
If schools are able to do it now, then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to continue doing it.
I do look forward to whatever Biden is going to announce/plan/rollout on this point, though. I've lost all optimism about everything else, so maybe I can be optimistic about that, for now.
And I understand the concerns re: safety. But Covid is not the only thing kids need to be kept "safe" from. I'm not going to parrot the bullshit "you can't let the cure be worse than the disease" line or whatever Trump said early on in the pandemic, but there has to be SOME discussion of balancing of harms in all of this. A lot of people want to ignore/not acknowledge all of the other harms.
I want to roll it into a greater discussion of what was wrong before, how covid made the disparity greater, and how we can fix things without going back to how things weren't working before.
And another reason may be that she likes working from home instead of in school, just as many people on these boards who work at home currently have expressed their interest in keeping it that way.
I have yet to meet a single teacher who wants to spend more time away from the kids. I’m sure there are a few out there but I don’t think this is the majority. NOTHING about teaching from home is easier for these poor teachers and the usual rewards for the shit parts of their job are not happening.
Interesting. As a teacher, I know many colleagues that would prefer to be at home but aren’t given that opportunity. I also taught from home in the spring and enjoyed a lot of benefits doing so, like the fact that I wasn’t required to teach virtual students and in-person simultaneously as I do now.
I've had this conversation here before and elsewhere as we all have. I am aware that teachers do not feel that they are childcare providers. However, when children are under a certain age they do also need adult supervision. This adult supervision happened at public schools lets say K-6th grade or K-5th grade.
I paid through the nose for daycare. I did my time. I did not budget for a pandemic that shut down the schools. Yes, parents have additional obligations now because the safety net/ blanket has been pulled out from under us. Yes, I am rising to that occasion and paying for a nanny this entire school year. Let's be clear, that I counted down the years until childcare costs were lower and they went to public school. I am allowed to be bitter that I have to pay for a nanny while also acknowledging my privilege that I am able to do so.
Far more people have had to quit their jobs especially women of color to stay home with their school age children and facilitate e-learning or the child is left on their own and fails their classes. Not all children, not all people obviously. ETA- Good article thedigitalmomentum.com/covid-19-and-women-in-the-workforce/
But to act like it's not big deal when your childcare and education is just brutally torn away from you is just IDK.... Everything you planned for- it's all out the window. And yes, it is affecting people of color times 1000% and more so this year than any other year.
And yes, I was worried about equities in schools before this, but having actually worked in inner city schools, the problem is sooo big and a lot to do with their own disorganization and corruption and yes the teacher's union was corrupt as well, I just didn't see a way to make changes there. And I ended up leaving the teaching field, and I am so glad I am not a teacher right now. I literally could not do it. So kudos to the teachers that are working this year whether from home or in person- they deserve all our praise.
If schools are able to do it now, then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to continue doing it.
I do look forward to whatever Biden is going to announce/plan/rollout on this point, though. I've lost all optimism about everything else, so maybe I can be optimistic about that, for now.
And I understand the concerns re: safety. But Covid is not the only thing kids need to be kept "safe" from. I'm not going to parrot the bullshit "you can't let the cure be worse than the disease" line or whatever Trump said early on in the pandemic, but there has to be SOME discussion of balancing of harms in all of this. A lot of people want to ignore/not acknowledge all of the other harms.
I want to roll it into a greater discussion of what was wrong before, how covid made the disparity greater, and how we can fix things without going back to how things weren't working before.
I have to imagine that both more school funding, and smaller class sizes are a good start at improving disparity. And, both of those would also help schools return to in person learning.
I am not a parent, nor am I a teacher, but I figure as a whole, more investment in schools is a positive for everyone (myself included).