Can we talk about San Francisco/Oakland? (And other cities)

[sonrisa]

konapoppy

You asked if it’s ‘as bad as it seems’ and my point is that for most crime and safety, no. Car break ins are up - yes. But other safety issues (like violent crimes, gun related safety, health safety, LGBTQ safety) things are better than so much of this country.

[msmerymac]

May 3, 2023 8:12:09 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

How are other cities handling public transit? WFH has dramatically reduced ridership. Even my friends in the transportation field are driving more because the timing of the trains has been unreliable. And as discussed, the visibility of crime has increased. BART policing is unlikely the answer (and one that we know can have deadly implications).

www.bart.gov/news/articles/2023/news20230224-0

It's a chicken or the egg scenario. Locally, they still have less service than before the pandemic because they say the demand isn't there. But more people have switched to driving because the train schedules aren't as convenient either. 

[icedcoffee]

For DC public transit part of the problem is funding. If they can't get federal funding they will slash train times and if the trains are running less often more people will choose to drive. Less riders means less revenue. Most things with public transit come down to funding at the end of the day, unfortunately.

I guess I'm part of the problem because I got so fed up with metro that I got a new job I can drive to.

[AJL]

This was said earlier in the thread and I'm kind of like "well... yeah." 

we saw fights between homeless people in front of the Apple store and drug deals right in front of the on/off bus stop at Union Square.

Austin has a very large homeless population that lives in tent communities all over town. I worry less about actual homeless folks than I do the fratties that harasses and harm them. Fights happen between people who are stressed. Homelessness is stressful. I'm confused as to what people expect to see when they go to a city. Do you expect people experiencing homelessness to be hidden so as not to soil your perfect tourist experience? It doesn't work that way. Also, I'm feel pretty confident drug deals have happened in your presence without your knowledge all the time. Big cities have big city problems. Small cities have big city problems. It's what happens when we (collectively) fail to provide adequate safety nets for people who experience significant social, mental, and physical hardships. 

As for daytime car break-ins, it's common sense not to leave any valuables visible in your vehicle in public and to always lock your car doors. Does it suck to get broken into? Absolutely. Is it a new problem? Nope. 

When tourists are being kidnapped off the streets at random, held for ransom, or sexually/physically assaulted, and murdered, then I'd be inclined to say that city is not safe, so don't go there. 

It doesn't sound like that is San Francisco. 

[konapoppy]

May 1 release from state of California - housing has increased while rate of decrease in population has slowed

dof.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/352/Forecasting/Demographics/Documents/E-1_2023PressRelease.pdf?campaign_id=49&emc=edit_ca_20230503&instance_id=91662&nl=california-today®i_id=56438592&segment_id=131990&te=1&user_id=ae113d38fb030437f60b7c35d7ca016f

[hermione]

May 3, 2023 0:17:45 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 2, 2023 23:14:40 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

I am just sharing our family's perspective as a victim of a crime on vacation, which has never happened before. We wouldn't be inclined when deciding where to go again given how violated we felt. It scared our kids immensely. Not sure what else you want me to say. 

I’m sorry that happened to you. Sincerely. I’ve been in your shoes and it’s violating.

It was mostly how you keep insisting that you’re never, ever coming back here, in the tone of an aggrieved customer asking to speak to the manager of this place. We hear you. You hated our city, there were too many unsavory characters for your liking, and you and your coveted tourism dollars won’t ever return.

I think you are doing a lot of work here. She said the crime they witnessed, including having their own car broken into, was concerning and makes them hesitant to return in the near future. That's her reality, not a threat. And she said it in a thread asking for people's perspectives on that exact topic.

[TR]

I think it would've been taken differently if it was just "I don't think San Francisco would be a top vacation spot for us in the near future" vs the thing about "spending tourist dollars". It was just a weird way to phrase it. Or maybe not.

[sonrisa]

May 3, 2023 8:30:45 GMT -5 AJL said:

Austin has a very large homeless population that lives in tent communities all over town. I worry less about actual homeless folks than I do the fratties that harasses and harm them. Fights happen between people who are stressed. Homelessness is stressful. 

One thing Austin and the Bay Area have in common is the weather doesn't kill you. Unhoused people just can't survive 365 days a year out in the elements in many parts of this country. Here (and there) they can. That contributes to longer term settlements. 

I'm not saying economic and health factors don't play a huge role in people becoming/staying unhoused. Just that the weather makes living in a tent city a viable response to that problem here in a way it just isn't in some other places. 

[AJL]

May 3, 2023 8:48:29 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 3, 2023 8:30:45 GMT -5 AJL said:

Austin has a very large homeless population that lives in tent communities all over town. I worry less about actual homeless folks than I do the fratties that harasses and harm them. Fights happen between people who are stressed. Homelessness is stressful. 

One thing Austin and the Bay Area have in common is the weather doesn't kill you. Unhoused people just can't survive 365 days a year out in the elements in many parts of this country. Here (and there) they can. That contributes to longer term settlements. 

I'm not saying economic and health factors don't play a huge role in people becoming/staying unhoused. Just that the weather makes living in a tent city a viable response to that problem here in a way it just isn't in some other places. 

You're right. Austin is a generally OK place to be homeless. We have a lot of green space and generally safe spaces to set up a tent. I volunteer to do point-in-time counts and get a chance to speak to a lot of the residents in the tent communities. That experience may be why I don't find it bothers me in the way it seems to bother tourists. 

[konapoppy]

Re: tourism - the numbers are increasing, but not yet at pre-pandemic levels. Conferences are a big driver.

www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/s-f-tourism-spending-doubled-2022-17846480.php

Spending volume in 2022 was 77% of the record high $9.6 billion in 2019, before the pandemic. A full spending recovery is expected by 2024, though hotel rates aren’t expected to reach pre-pandemic levels until 2026, according to San Francisco Travel, the city’s tourism bureau.

[goldengirlz]

May 3, 2023 8:40:30 GMT -5 hermione said:

May 3, 2023 0:17:45 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I’m sorry that happened to you. Sincerely. I’ve been in your shoes and it’s violating.

It was mostly how you keep insisting that you’re never, ever coming back here, in the tone of an aggrieved customer asking to speak to the manager of this place. We hear you. You hated our city, there were too many unsavory characters for your liking, and you and your coveted tourism dollars won’t ever return.

I think you are doing a lot of work here. She said the crime they witnessed, including having their own car broken into, was concerning and makes them hesitant to return in the near future. That's her reality, not a threat. And she said it in a thread asking for people's perspectives on that exact topic.

Eh, maybe. Or maybe if she had phrased it like you did, I (and some others) wouldn’t have reacted the way we did.

The amount of human suffering we have to witness everyday here is heartbreaking. And yes, it’s upsetting to see drug dealing activity and people without homes (some of whom are mentally ill) act erratically. Being a victim of a crime is not okay, and it sucks to have your car broken into.

But like I’ve said, I’ve heard that sentiment before of people — whether tech workers or finance bros attending a conference — saying, “I contribute a lot economically to this city and I shouldn’t have to put up with this.” And it just grates on me. Maybe it shouldn’t. And maybe that wasn’t what she meant — but it is how it came across.

[sonrisa]

Perceived safety is also related to personal experience.

I don't feel unsafe around unhoused people just because they are unhoused. I've worked with unhoused people in the Bay Area, NYC and Guatemala and my husband works in public health. I don't seek out tent encampments or dismiss the risks (especially to people who are living under those conditions). But I don't have a knee jerk fear.

In contrast, I feel incredibly unsafe around guns. Especially when paired with flags. When I travel places where they are visible or common I get a pit of fear in my stomach and want to GTFO. A "pee quickly so we can get out of here before they kill us" level of fear. Some people on this board are comfortable around that (although I assume they are also aware of the risk).

[basilosaurus]

May 3, 2023 8:48:29 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 3, 2023 8:30:45 GMT -5 AJL said:

Austin has a very large homeless population that lives in tent communities all over town. I worry less about actual homeless folks than I do the fratties that harasses and harm them. Fights happen between people who are stressed. Homelessness is stressful. 

One thing Austin and the Bay Area have in common is the weather doesn't kill you. Unhoused people just can't survive 365 days a year out in the elements in many parts of this country. Here (and there) they can. That contributes to longer term settlements. 

I'm not saying economic and health factors don't play a huge role in people becoming/staying unhoused. Just that the weather makes living in a tent city a viable response to that problem here in a way it just isn't in some other places. 

Hawaii and south Florida share this. I'm not sure how much is truth vs urban myth, but people, including politicians, blame northerns for giving one way bus tickets and plane tickets for Hawaii.

I will never forget attending a small town hall with Hawaii's"homeless czar" (seriously, official title) after the camera crews left talking about the removal of tent cities from near the legislative building before an asean conference as "taking out the trash before company comes"

Eta both are obviously thriving wrt tourism. But boy is there a divide in what's presented to tourists vs lived experience of locals. And the online travel advice is rife with racism and elitism and tourists acting entitled like if they're spending money it should be their disneyfied fantasy

[konapoppy]

May 3, 2023 9:06:57 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Perceived safety is in also related to personal experience.

I don't feel unsafe around unhoused people just because they are unhoused. I've worked with unhoused people in the Bay Area, NYC and Guatemala and my husband works in public health. I don't seek out tent encampments or dismiss the risks (especially to people who are living under those conditions). But I don't have a knee jerk fear.

In contrast, I feel incredibly unsafe around guns. When I travel places where they are visible or common I get a pit of fear in my stomach and want to GTFO. Some people here are comfortable around that (although I assume they are also aware of the risk).

Agreed. My husband and I grew up very differently - one urban, one rural - and we both initially had fear visiting the other places.

[sonrisa]

May 3, 2023 9:05:02 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 3, 2023 8:40:30 GMT -5 hermione said:

I think you are doing a lot of work here. She said the crime they witnessed, including having their own car broken into, was concerning and makes them hesitant to return in the near future. That's her reality, not a threat. And she said it in a thread asking for people's perspectives on that exact topic.

Eh, maybe. Or maybe if she had phrased it like you did, I (and some others) wouldn’t have reacted the way we did.

The amount of human suffering we have to witness everyday here is heartbreaking. And yes, it’s upsetting to see drug dealing activity and people without homes (some of whom are mentally ill) act erratically. Being a victim of a crime is not okay, and it sucks to have your car broken into.

But like I’ve said, I’ve heard that sentiment before of people — whether tech workers or finance bros attending a conference — saying, “I contribute a lot economically to this city and I shouldn’t have to put up with this.” And it just grates on me. Maybe it shouldn’t. And maybe that wasn’t what she meant — but it is how it came across.

I'm pretty sure "narcissistic tech/finance bros are the worst" is a unity horse. 

[hermione]

May 3, 2023 8:55:15 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Re: tourism - the numbers are increasing, but not yet at pre-pandemic levels. Conferences are a big driver.

www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/s-f-tourism-spending-doubled-2022-17846480.php

Spending volume in 2022 was 77% of the record high $9.6 billion in 2019, before the pandemic. A full spending recovery is expected by 2024, though hotel rates aren’t expected to reach pre-pandemic levels until 2026, according to San Francisco Travel, the city’s tourism bureau.

For the conferences my husband and I attend, we've noticed multi-year contracts with some cities becoming a thing. For instance 5 of the 10 annual conferences in his field are in New Orleans. we've both commented that while this makes sense on the surface, it's a shame for other cities that could use that revenue.

[hermione]

May 3, 2023 9:05:02 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 3, 2023 8:40:30 GMT -5 hermione said:

I think you are doing a lot of work here. She said the crime they witnessed, including having their own car broken into, was concerning and makes them hesitant to return in the near future. That's her reality, not a threat. And she said it in a thread asking for people's perspectives on that exact topic.

Eh, maybe. Or maybe if she had phrased it like you did, I (and some others) wouldn’t have reacted the way we did.

The amount of human suffering we have to witness everyday here is heartbreaking. And yes, it’s upsetting to see drug dealing activity and people without homes (some of whom are mentally ill) act erratically. Being a victim of a crime is not okay, and it sucks to have your car broken into.

But like I’ve said, I’ve heard that sentiment before of people — whether tech workers or finance bros attending a conference — saying, “I contribute a lot economically to this city and I shouldn’t have to put up with this.” And it just grates on me. Maybe it shouldn’t. And maybe that wasn’t what she meant — but it is how it came across.

I do understand where you are coming from. I am from Detroit - it's a common and frustrating sentiment.

[basilosaurus]

Other cities: I was in Seattle last fall and hadn't been there since 2009.

I was really struck by the difference in downtown. And that I saw people openly freebasing on the bus (I used public transport back then as well).

It seems this is a trend across America? Or did it strike me so much since I'd been overseas for 5 years?

I wasn't personally worried about my physical safety. I've lived in a number of places tourists might consider "dangerous" and, yes, heard a fair few gunshots and once even had police once chasing something through my yard at 3am. So the bar for me to notice is pretty high.

[maudefindlay]

I think a lot of downtown areas across the country have taken a hit since the pandemic. I will still go to downtown Indianapolis for instance, but after a certain hour it's like ok time to go wheras back in the day stay till they kick us out type thing.

[TR]

I also think there's a difference between "I saw unhoused people or people doing drugs and it made me personally feel unsafe" vs "The unhoused population / drug use problems are causing retail businesses, restaurants, etc. to leave making the area less conducive to tourist activities" as to why someone may not want to travel somewhere and those two things would likely be perceived differently.

[erbear]

May 3, 2023 7:56:59 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I live in the Philly suburbs and frequent the city for both work-related reasons and food/entertainment. The political set up of this area lends itself to a huge divide in a way between the city and the outer areas. So for years when I mention a restaurant, museum, or performance in Philadelphia that I enjoyed, I've had neighbors and acquaintances say, "Oh, I don't really go into the city much." Which is frustrating because it's one of the 10 largest cities in the country with a lot to offer and has a fairly robust public transit system, including commuter rail.

Those comments have also been a bit more harsh, usually with a racist tinge, from the contingent of people who moved their kids out to more rural/exurban areas, usually in the 70s, 80s, 90s.

Anyway, there are still plenty of thriving restaurants and events in Philly. I usually go to my city office, which is a block from city hall, smack in the middle of downtown, once every week or two. But the level of poverty in center city (one area where business people and tourists are likely to see and which the city has tried to make look somewhat welcoming) is certainly increasing, and I see many more unhoused people sleeping on sidewalks during the day than I have in the last 10 years I've been here.

But I'm also annoyed that people now feel justified in their view of Philly as "dangerous" or bad.

I hope I didn't give off this message, because it wasn't at all my intent. I love Philly, and I am downtown all the time. I've noticed changes, particularly during the pandemic where blocks that were usually pretty busy seem more isolated, SEPTA stations feel emptier, etc. but Philadelphia is not unsafe and is such a vibrant, awesome city.

[sonrisa]

May 3, 2023 9:42:36 GMT -5 TR said:

"The unhoused population / drug use problems are causing retail businesses, restaurants, etc. to leave making the area less conducive to tourist activities"

The unhoused population is not why retail businesses and restaurants are leaving. It's the opposite. Tech/Finance bros are the cause/contributors to both.

Downtown retail businesses and restaurants are closing because those tech/finance bros are working from home (and shopping online, creating/funding the platforms for online shopping) rather than going to downtown offices, eating and shopping there. That has gutted the customer base for those businesses. They have also abandoned public transportation for company buses and Uber. 

The unhoused population is exacerbated by the extreme wealth disparity created by tech and finance bros.

[msmerymac]

erbear, oh no, definitely not you! I know you still take advantage of a lot the area has to offer, and the feel in center city HAS changed since the pandemic.

[msmerymac]

May 3, 2023 8:55:15 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Re: tourism - the numbers are increasing, but not yet at pre-pandemic levels. Conferences are a big driver.

www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/s-f-tourism-spending-doubled-2022-17846480.php

Spending volume in 2022 was 77% of the record high $9.6 billion in 2019, before the pandemic. A full spending recovery is expected by 2024, though hotel rates aren’t expected to reach pre-pandemic levels until 2026, according to San Francisco Travel, the city’s tourism bureau.

Through work I was at an event that talked about the hotel industry recently. In the US in general, hotel nights are expected to increase 12% over 2019 in 2023. In places like Orlando and Las Vegas, it's much higher. In Philly it's still -17% over 2019 and San Francisco is only a bit lower. 

[basilosaurus]

May 3, 2023 9:42:36 GMT -5 TR said:

I also think there's a difference between "I saw unhoused people or people doing drugs and it made me personally feel unsafe" vs "The unhoused population / drug use problems are causing retail businesses, restaurants, etc. to leave making the area less conducive to tourist activities" as to why someone may not want to travel somewhere and those two things would likely be perceived differently.

I think there's a lot of chicken egg involved in this. Or maybe self eating snake.

Tourists see something they don't like so they don't go, a few businesses leave to keep their business. The vacuum makes room for more open "unsavory" activities so remaining businesses also bail.

I still hung out in downtown Seattle because there are quality f&b still. It just struck me the difference.

Same way I was in downtown San Francisco in 2017 after not being there for a long long time and happily walked through "dangerous" places to get to some real good f&b. But I did notice quite a difference.

I felt more sorrow than fear, so you can miss me with the "people from cities" nonsense.

Isn't overall violent crime still down? Stuff can be replaced. Or just not needed. I'm definitely more scared about knocking on a door or turning around in a driveway.

I'd much rather some of my friends and family walk through downtown San Francisco than anywhere in open carry states with their anti gay and anti trans laws.

[rupertpenny]

May 3, 2023 8:05:32 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

May 3, 2023 7:56:59 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

But I'm also annoyed that people now feel justified in their view of Philly as "dangerous" or bad.

As someone who lives in Baltimore, I totally get it. We definitely have problems but so much of the narrative has serious racist undertones. There's also a strong feeling that we can criticize the city all we want but god forbid someone from outside does. Then we're gonna fight. It's kind of like family.

Some of my family (in Florida!!) assume I'm living in a war zone. 

Public transportation in NYC has definitely struggled, but I think we are nearing pre-pandemic ridership numbers. I that is probably in part due to the fact that many people really have no other options. I've been riding the subway to and from work everyday for two years and I've rarely had issues. Honestly the worst thing about riding the subway recently is that Eric Adams decided that fare evasion is the biggest problem facing this city and the stations are now absolutely crawling with cops. I'm not worried about cops doing anything to me really, but the vibes are terrible and I worry that there might be some kind of altercation between police and riders. 

[sonrisa]

I've noticed a theme with some of the articles here: "Some parts of the city people gentrified have ungentrified a bit" (the tenderloin article, the Whole Foods article).

I can remember being in the tenderloin in the 90s as a kid and other neighborhoods (and Union Square early morning before the tourists arrived). Lots of people were homeless then and other people were able to live in SROs (that were torn down and rebuilt as luxury housing).

It's just that wealthy people and tourists weren't also in those spaces (like now) expecting them to look like Pac Heights. 

[konapoppy]

No one group is responsible here. Not the unhoused, not the tech bros (though they are the worst). The pandemic really shifted things.

I believe (too tired to go find the article) that city of San Francisco was putting pressure on return to office for local businesses. That obviously had implications, as wfh had been enormously beneficial to non-majority identities. Some companies are doing it anyway.

Leaving those office vacant has downsides. I believe some are being converted to housing. That might help.

[sonrisa]

May 3, 2023 10:08:58 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

May 3, 2023 8:05:32 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

As someone who lives in Baltimore, I totally get it. We definitely have problems but so much of the narrative has serious racist undertones. There's also a strong feeling that we can criticize the city all we want but god forbid someone from outside does. Then we're gonna fight. It's kind of like family.

Some of my family (in Florida!!) assume I'm living in a war zone. 

Public transportation in NYC has definitely struggled, but I think we are nearing pre-pandemic ridership numbers. I that is probably in part due to the fact that many people really have no other options. I've been riding the subway to and from work everyday for two years and I've rarely had issues. Honestly the worst thing about riding the subway recently is that Eric Adams decided that fare evasion is the biggest problem facing this city and the stations are now absolutely crawling with cops. I'm not worried about cops doing anything to me really, but the vibes are terrible and I worry that there might be some kind of altercation between police and riders. 

In my 6 years living in NYC, the only people to ever threaten me were cops. 

[goldengirlz]

May 3, 2023 2:01:11 GMT -5 AJL said:

I'm going to SF for a long weekend on my own at the end of May. It's been one of my favorite cities forever, but I haven't been in four years. I'm assuming it's still generally safe and at least no worse than Austin. I mean, shit, we have open carry here in Texas, so it's got to be safer than that, right?

It’ll be fine. If you’re staying in a hotel, I’d probably avoid Union Square if you can, mostly because it can be pretty deserted (although I walk around there fairly regularly and it’s not that much worse than before — just a lot less foot traffic so you don’t have that safety in numbers feeling). Closer to the Embarcadero is better (although can still feel deserted at night); a residential neighborhood is your best bet, if possible.

Also, if you’re renting a car, ask for one with California plates. You (and your car) will blend in better.