Can we talk about San Francisco/Oakland? (And other cities)

[Velar Fricative]

sonrisa , I'm well aware of that. My whole point was about the privilege aspect. Our largest cities also tend to be the most unaffordable to most people. Smaller cities and rural towns see crime too, but I do know the biggest cities are so segregated so that people could be blind to what's happening in various neighborhoods. Maybe smaller towns are too, I just don't have firsthand experience with any (except the NYC suburb I grew up in, which was pretty segregated too). 

[neverfstop]

May 4, 2023 7:57:41 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I really think most crime can be attributed to two things: power or poverty.

Wealth = power, so basically the same thing.  I recall something similar...that there are many correlations with violence, but income equality is one of the few causations.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15817728/#:~:text=The%20most%20well%2Destablished%20environmental,tend%20to%20be%20more%20violent.
The most well-established environmental determinant of levels of violence is the scale of income differences between rich and poor. More unequal societies tend to be more violent.

[seeyalater52]

konapoppy that discussion about services and programs for houseless folks is really interesting. I think we can expect things to get measurably worse in this regard post-covid state of emergency (ending this month.) I don’t know granularly about some of the CA specific programs referenced, but in many states pandemic era changes such as eviction prevention and housing support were not permanent, and programs established or funded through ARPA dollars or otherwise a result of covid emergency policies will be spent down without additional hope of renewal.

We know what works, at least in a broad sense, and the pandemic allowed for the funding and will to actually implement some of those things at least temporarily. It is sad to see the reality that we will walk away from those lessons as public policy response to the (ongoing) pandemic evaporates. It’s not just homelessness: low income people are going to be really fucked and it is not going to make the sort of petty crime and poverty that is at the center of discussions about urban life any better.

[Vespasia]

May 4, 2023 8:57:15 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 4, 2023 7:56:37 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Buuuuuuuuuut there is the important caveat that it is also very privileged to be able to live in a big city and not be impacted by gun violence, gangs, drugs, etc.

 

guns and drugs are *not* a city thing. See the ‘gun in the backpack’ story in other thread.

You are more likely to die from a gun death in rural areas than cities.

The idea that either problem is related to cities (despite ample evidence otherwise) is a fox talking point.

I don't fully disagree but this ignores Velar Fricative's point. There are absolutely people in Baltimore, and I assume NYC, Philly, etc. who have a completely different experience living in these cities than we do. There are neighborhoods where gun violence is an every day occurrence that causes fear and trauma in communities.

These just aren't the areas where suburban tourists are visiting and yet they seem to think it's true for the whole city. 

[meganew]

May 4, 2023 6:31:26 GMT -5 joy said:

May 3, 2023 22:07:35 GMT -5 meganew said:

This feels a little dismissive, though. Yes, this is your reality of our city- but it’s not the same city that a lot of our residents are experiencing. We had two years in a row of a record number of homicides, things are trending down right now and I hope to god it stays that way, because it has been terrifying for a lot of families living with that reality day to day.

No, this is very fair. Apologies.

I was commenting on Rupert saying these are comments from her family. I get the same ones from my family, who have been to our house and know how much we love it here. For me, it’s like they cannot see the value in our community or any community that has the word “Philadelphia” in its address. We have many problems - as you outlined above - but we also have a lot of people who live here, have active lives here and want that both for their neighborhood and all the others, as well.

I may not have explained myself well and I’m willing to come back. I have to get to work!

I totally understand. My family doesn’t make comments about the safety of our area, but I think it would be really upsetting to be constantly made to feel like we’re putting our family’s lives at risk by living where we do.

[sonrisa]

May 4, 2023 9:01:20 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

sonrisa , I'm well aware of that. My whole point was about the privilege aspect. Our largest cities also tend to be the most unaffordable to most people. Smaller cities and rural towns see crime too, but I do know the biggest cities are so segregated so that people could be blind to what's happening in various neighborhoods. Maybe smaller towns are too, I just don't have firsthand experience with any (except the NYC suburb I grew up in, which was pretty segregated too). 

Sorry. That was a knee jerk reaction to the conservative idea of "big city guns, gangs and drugs" when you find all of those things outside of big cities. Privilege and segregation also aren't city problems. Not seeing how other people live because of your own privilege cuts across the country. 

Vespasia my point is that gun violence (and the fear and trauma it causes) is an every day occurrence in *American* life. Not specifically big city life. As is marginalization of at risk groups. But yes- my knee jerk post glossed over her greater point. 

[Velar Fricative]

Another larger problem to consider is that just as more people are fearing cities (regardless of justification), the climate crisis is now what it is and will only get worse. We need more higher-density living but now on top of the near-impossibility of having to magically reverse decades of migration to suburbs and exurbs, we have to convince people that cities are not death traps. And covid definitely didn't help either.*

Then again, the Venn diagram of people who think all cities are hellscapes and people who don't believe climate change is happening is probably a perfect circle, so there's that.

*I'm still baffled by how many people are driving solo into Manhattan during rush hour.

[goldengirlz]

The Republican talking point about crime in the cities is that it’s directly related to the 2020 defund the police movement — that police have been discouraged from pursuing non-violent crime (like the car break-ins that have become more rampant), which in turn has made people more brazen (to use the word mentioned above.)

Actually, I shouldn’t even say it’s solely a Republican talking point, because I hear moderate Democrats in the Bay Area (a Democratic stronghold) saying the same thing.

I’m curious to see what the next election brings here. Something tells me London Breed might not be long for her job as mayor.

ETA: A few people mentioned policing on public transit. One thing BART has done well is dispatch crisis intervention specialists (people with mental health or social work training who are equipped with tools like Narcan) to ride the trains. They have also increased policing in an effort to increase ridership (“safety” was one of the top reasons people have said in surveys for why they don’t ride the trains — daily ridership is only a third of what it was pre-pandemic) but I appreciate that it’s not the only thing they’re doing.

[wawa]

regarding the "ok, but actually is it ACTUALLY worse" question - maryland has a pretty comprehensive crime data dashboard for baltimore and for most metrics when I took a quick glance what it shows is that rates for certain crimes have been climbing for the past 3 years, a lot of them are still well below prior years. It's all over the place, but is not the "omg the city is so unsafe suddenly!!!" moment that the news would lead you to expect. I'd expect most other cities are similarly a little all over the place.

goccp.maryland.gov/data-dashboards/baltimore-city-crime-dashboard/

[konapoppy]

An article on what is moving into downtown sf. That’s good! - abc7news.com/sf-union-square-shopping-new-stores-office-spaces/13213444/?ex_cid=TA_KGO_FB&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LYB_x8qFQHuUxdUEqNNQXS4g2EAJRVg0LVpiPLksCUvjprLvKZElj1S0&mibextid=Zxz2cZ#lhbdcfgoomjqzi9liq

[zelda25]

May 4, 2023 7:41:35 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

I live in the Portland suburbs. I've very conflicted about the state of the city. Downtown is a ghost town and I will admit that I no longer like walking around down there. I realize it probably makes me the bad guy but it no longer feels like the city I grew up in. However, city neighborhoods are still vibrant and full of people.

Property and violent crime are up city wide but still lower than 80's levels. We had someone come on to our front porch in broad daylight and steal our shoes. Yes, that's a petty crime and we can afford to replace them but it still felt violating.

However, I'm still bullish on the city and will basically fight any outsider that says it's unsafe. My feelings are really complicated.

I live in East Portland, which, granted, has been problematic for a long time. But it's gotten infinitely worse in the past 3-5 years. We hear gunfire every. fucking. night. Residential break-ins (not just cars--actual homes) are a regular occurrence and we haven't felt safe walking in the neighborhood for a while.

We are leaving--in large part because of the above--but we've always wanted to live closer to the coast and covid made it possible. We're both fully remote and have the luxury of living just about anywhere while keeping our jobs. All that being said, people still want to live here, so I'm hopeful there will be a revival at some point. Our house, in arguably one of the worst parts of the city, sold in four days with multiple offers--all above asking--so there's definitely hope for a turn around.

[ksun]

May 2, 2023 21:23:42 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Now the A’s are leaving

There is an extremely good chance that it will fall through. Fisher needs to sell. The A's leaving (and the Raiders) has nothing to do with the city itself being unwelcoming. It is all about funding and placement of new stadiums. Fisher has always wanted to leave so has been reluctant to meet any sort of offers the city has made or come to any agreement to move things forward. The city passed plenty of legislature to allow building a new park at the Howard Terminal site but Fisher never had any intention to build there despite all his smoke and mirrors. Fisher has a poor history with owning sports teams (see: SJ Earthquakes) and has already stated he won't come up with the number he needs for the LV site & the city has said they won't meet him where he is. Ultimately he needs to sell to an owner that intends to keep them in town and work with the city to build a new stadium (i.e. Joe Lacob). You can't group the sports teams in with the crime - they all have to do with the building of new stadiums/arenas.

[konapoppy]

May 8, 2023 11:17:04 GMT -5 ksun said:

May 2, 2023 21:23:42 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Now the A’s are leaving

There is an extremely good chance that it will fall through. Fisher needs to sell. The A's leaving (and the Raiders) has nothing to do with the city itself being unwelcoming. It is all about funding and placement of new stadiums. Fisher has always wanted to leave so has been reluctant to meet any sort of offers the city has made or come to any agreement to move things forward. The city passed plenty of legislature to allow building a new park at the Howard Terminal site but Fisher never had any intention to build there despite all his smoke and mirrors. Fisher has a poor history with owning sports teams (see: SJ Earthquakes) and has already stated he won't come up with the number he needs for the LV site & the city has said they won't meet him where he is. Ultimately he needs to sell to an owner that intends to keep them in town and work with the city to build a new stadium (i.e. Joe Lacob). You can't group the sports teams in with the crime - they all have to do with the building of new stadiums/arenas.

What? I wasn’t grouping it in with crime. I was bringing it up in terms of culture.

[ksun]

May 2, 2023 21:23:42 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Oakland crime around the airport is brazen- I watched someone look to break into the car next to me in broad daylight. Car break ins are nothing new, but the frequency, speed and openness of it in this area is startling. Canes closed indoor seating. Now the A’s are leaving, and the Warriors and Raiders were already gone.

It seemed pretty grouped in with crime, as it was in the same paragraph and the stadium is very close to the airport. 

[pinkdutchtulips]

May 8, 2023 11:17:04 GMT -5 ksun said:

May 2, 2023 21:23:42 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Now the A’s are leaving

There is an extremely good chance that it will fall through. Fisher needs to sell. The A's leaving (and the Raiders) has nothing to do with the city itself being unwelcoming. It is all about funding and placement of new stadiums. Fisher has always wanted to leave so has been reluctant to meet any sort of offers the city has made or come to any agreement to move things forward. The city passed plenty of legislature to allow building a new park at the Howard Terminal site but Fisher never had any intention to build there despite all his smoke and mirrors. Fisher has a poor history with owning sports teams (see: SJ Earthquakes) and has already stated he won't come up with the number he needs for the LV site & the city has said they won't meet him where he is. Ultimately he needs to sell to an owner that intends to keep them in town and work with the city to build a new stadium (i.e. Joe Lacob). You can't group the sports teams in with the crime - they all have to do with the building of new stadiums/arenas.

It'll fall through bc the NV state legislature/committee that needs to vote on the propsal meets every other year and its coming up close to the meeting this year w NO proposal prepared by Fischer or Kaval (who's an ass but that's another story). Conveniently, the state of NV is calling Fischer's bluff. The sale from the Haas' to Fischer was fastracked bc Bud Selig, the MLB Commissioner, was an old frat buddy or something of Fischer. Lacob wanted to buy but Selig said No. I realize I'm way too invested in this but this is what happens when your bf is a diehard A's fan ..... 

The Coliseum in general is in shambles. It should have been replached DECADES ago. There have been multiple attempts by the team, the city, the county, the owner, and even MLB to get the A's an updated ballpark. Everything has fallen through for one reason or another.  Instead now we have a real life Major League (the movie) situation going on ... there current record isn't helping and neither is the perception that the area around the Coliseum is BAD. I've never not felt safe there (concerts, baseball games) but I've also been around hordes of people going to/coming from the stadium on BART. 

[ksun]

I was a season ticket holder for several years before I had to move out of state. I used to go to 80 games a year there, plus Warriors and Raiders games & concerts. Never, ever felt unsafe. Parked in the BART lot quote a few times & never any car issues. I'm not sure I'd park there now, but who knows. Regardless, I'm still going back in September to watch & hang out with friends. The Coliseum is a dump, but it's OUR dump.

The giants had their own hand in the A's struggling, blocking their move to San Jose when it could have been a sure thing. But yes, like you said, Kaval is just as complicit in all of this as Fisher. I'd give anything for Lacob to try again. He saved the Warriors, he could save the A's, too.

[konapoppy]

May 8, 2023 13:50:44 GMT -5 ksun said:

May 2, 2023 21:23:42 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Oakland crime around the airport is brazen- I watched someone look to break into the car next to me in broad daylight. Car break ins are nothing new, but the frequency, speed and openness of it in this area is startling. Canes closed indoor seating. Now the A’s are leaving, and the Warriors and Raiders were already gone.

It seemed pretty grouped in with crime, as it was in the same paragraph and the stadium is very close to the airport. 

It was all together, and clearly I did a terrible job in trying to talk about other things like shops, BART, etc. If you looked at the paragraph above it was the same.

My point with the sports teams being gone was cultural. I don’t even consider that the same area as the crime by the airport since it is across the freeway.

Anyway, I am done engaging on this, as the A’s are way too complicated of a topic and I spent too many years listening to my family’s take on it.

[YeahSure]

May 3, 2023 0:17:45 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 2, 2023 23:14:40 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

I am just sharing our family's perspective as a victim of a crime on vacation, which has never happened before. We wouldn't be inclined when deciding where to go again given how violated we felt. It scared our kids immensely. Not sure what else you want me to say. 

I’m sorry that happened to you. Sincerely. I’ve been in your shoes and it’s violating.

It was mostly how you keep insisting that you’re never, ever coming back here, in the tone of an aggrieved customer asking to speak to the manager of this place. We hear you. You hated our city, there were too many unsavory characters for your liking, and you and your coveted tourism dollars won’t ever return.

[nothingcontroversial]

Okay, I have a question.

I just noted that YeahSure bookmarked a previous quote, but didn't add anything new to this. What is the purpose of this? Is it so that the poster can find and review the comment at a later date when they have time to reflect and add their own comments? 

I see people doing that occasionally on these boards, and I've always been so confused as to why this is being done. 

[sonrisa]

May 13, 2023 16:49:35 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Okay, I have a question.

I just noted that YeahSure bookmarked a previous quote, but didn't add anything new to this. What is the purpose of this? Is it so that the poster can find and review the comment at a later date when they have time to reflect and add their own comments? 

I see people doing that occasionally on these boards, and I've always been so confused as to why this is being done. 

Personally, every time I've bookmarked something, it has been by accident. So perhaps that's the case here? 

[YeahSure]

May 13, 2023 16:49:35 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Okay, I have a question.

I just noted that YeahSure bookmarked a previous quote, but didn't add anything new to this. What is the purpose of this? Is it so that the poster can find and review the comment at a later date when they have time to reflect and add their own comments? 

I see people doing that occasionally on these boards, and I've always been so confused as to why this is being done. 

I don't know why others do it, and didn't realise I had 'bookmarked' it. What happened in this case was that I was going to respond to someone yesterday before work and suddenly realised I needed to run, and closed my laptop. 

[ksun]

I guess don't bring up the A's/Dubs or Raiders if you don't want that to be part of the discussion? The A's and Raiders had nothing to do with anything beyond not coming to agreement with the city on new stadiums (and Mark Davis is an asshole but not to the John Fisher extent) and Lacob got the arena he wanted, but in the City instead. The A's decision still isn't final, thankfully, and I send juju to the universe every night that someone will swoop in and buy them.

[bimbi284]

This is wonderful. Chicagoans make t-shirts telling Fox to stfu about Chicago.

http://instagram.com/p/Csbx489rMkO

[macmars45]

May 4, 2023 9:01:20 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

sonrisa , I'm well aware of that. My whole point was about the privilege aspect. Our largest cities also tend to be the most unaffordable to most people. Smaller cities and rural towns see crime too, but I do know the biggest cities are so segregated so that people could be blind to what's happening in various neighborhoods. Maybe smaller towns are too, I just don't have firsthand experience with any (except the NYC suburb I grew up in, which was pretty segregated too). 

Yes can confirm smaller towns are also segregated. My hometown is still very segregated. The whites live on one side and the Hispanics live on the other. It has gotten better since I graduated high school back in 2004. Better isn't great or awesome though.

It's 50% Hispanic 49% White 1% Asian in my hometown.

As for crime here in my hometown: there are gangs, shootings etc etc. They were in the Seattle area when I lived there too.

I've only ever felt unsafe once in my hometown. When I was 22/23 I was leaving a work meeting at 9pm (it was dark outside). An older man followed me and tried to converse with me as I walked a few blocks to my parking spot.