Can we talk about San Francisco/Oakland? (And other cities)

[konapoppy]

Local folks and others who are informed - what are your thoughts about what is going on? Is it as “bad” as it seems? Will things turn around downtown?

Downtown is a ghost town, and now there are a slew of retail locations closing. The Bob Lee murder was used to feed the narrative that things are unsafe, but we know now that was a murder by a friend, not a random act.

Oakland crime around the airport is brazen- I watched someone look to break into the car next to me in broad daylight. Car break ins are nothing new, but the frequency, speed and openness of it in this area is startling. Canes closed indoor seating. Now the A’s are leaving, and the Warriors and Raiders were already gone.

[konapoppy]

A few links:

abc7news.com/amp/sf-drugs-fentanyl-crisis-drug-market-crackdown-san-francisco-tenderloin/13200067/

www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/parking-area-near-oakland-airport-magnet-car-break-ins/

www.foxnews.com/us/san-francisco-crime-problem-runs-deeper-than-rosy-statistics-from-city.amp

www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/san-francisco-crime-homicide-17882927.php

[Deleted]

Our rental car was broken into at 2 pm on a Sunday afternoon at a busy In-n-Out right a few blocks from the shopping center mentioned here. We were parked directly in front of the door. And while I know the Bob Lee case was sensationalized, I have to say, we saw fights between homeless people in front of the Apple store and drug deals right in front of the on/off bus stop at Union Square. While this may be nothing to people used to living in big cities, for us it made us seriously reconsider spending any of our tourism dollars there again anytime soon. I'm not sure my perspective is the one you're looking for, but I figured I'd weigh in since our experience was so close to one of the places cited here.

[goldengirlz]

May 2, 2023 21:36:11 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

Our rental car was broken into at 2 pm on a Sunday afternoon at a busy In-n-Out right a few blocks from the shopping center mentioned here. We were parked directly in front of the door. And while I know the Bob Lee case was sensationalized, I have to say, we saw fights between homeless people in front of the Apple store and drug deals right in front of the on/off bus stop at Union Square. While this may be nothing to people used to living in big cities, for us it made us seriously reconsider spending any of our tourism dollars there again anytime soon. I'm not sure my perspective is the one you're looking for, but I figured I'd weigh in since our experience was so close to one of the places cited here.

I see this sentiment a lot from tourists (mainly on anonymous message boards like this one) and always think it sounds vaguely like a threat. Like, “Get your act together or we’ll withhold our ‘tourism dollars!’”

Okay?

[goldengirlz]

I mean, look, it’s complicated. Things are not good right now. The tech exodus (both the layoffs and the permanent WFH situation) has created a void downtown (I’m there at least three days a week; I walk and take BART so I’ve seen it firsthand.) The problems that were always there are now even more visible.

The residential neighborhoods feel more “normal.” Violent crime is still low but property crime, especially car break-ins, have become a big issue. I thought the NYTimes article was fair.

www.nytimes.com/2023/04/30/us/san-francisco-whole-foods-crime-economy.html

[goldengirlz]

May 2, 2023 22:09:44 GMT -5 mofongo said:

May 2, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I see this sentiment a lot from tourists (mainly on anonymous message boards like this one) and always think it sounds vaguely like a threat. Like, “Get your act together or we’ll withhold our ‘tourism dollars!’”

Okay?

I can’t speak for San Francisco, but crime in Nola has really gotten horrible. Car break-ins have turned into car jackings, even murders. We have daily gun violence. While most of the shootings are targeted, many bystanders (including children) are being shot and killed. There was a targeted murder of a restaurant employee last weekend that left a jazz fest tourist injured as well. It’s daily.

I have friends out of town, some that are from here, and they’re always like OMG it’s so bad, etc. I mean, yes, and I’m more nervous/cautious than I have been in the past, but I LIVE here. We are definitely more vigilant, but I don’t want to move, and I still have to live.

We also have a horrible string of gas station car jackings! I think they have gotten those more under control, but my friends that lived in those neighborhoods were driving 20 min to get gas for a while.

I don’t want to “like” this but yes. It’s not like locals don’t see the issues. And we of course want convention and tourism dollars! But, like, this is where we live and/or work. Who are you threatening?

And these are human beings we’re talking about. Yes, they may be unhoused or addicted to drugs or mentally ill. But you can’t just “clean up” the city overnight.

[erbear]

Philadelphia is starting to feel like this too. I do think some of it is media coverage (I think they are trying to highlight victims of gun violence in an attempt to sway public opinion to support gun regulation, but the result is just a bit much - I’m not explaining this well). I love my city, and I generally feel pretty safe but the randomness of relatively violent crime lately has me a little on edge. Here, at least, so much is rooted in education. The schools aren’t funded, and there is just no where for kids to go except on the streets. It’s so complicated.

[wanderingback]

Are overall crime rates still down from the 80s and 90s?

[konapoppy]

It’s interesting to hear other cities are facing similar issues/news.

It’s so hard to watch places you love no longer feel like the place you once knew. We know the businesses leaving has a real impact on city revenue. It’s hard to imagine how we come back from this, but I suppose it is possible (and clearly not everyone was thriving before the pandemic). Or things will forever be different and continue to evolve.

[konapoppy]

May 2, 2023 22:35:31 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Are overall crime rates still down from the 80s and 90s?

One of the articles talks about how the murder rate was 4x higher in the 70s, and violent crime is about a third of what it was in 1980.

The crime is one piece, but the lack of people and businesses moving out is also a component.

In addition to tech layoffs and offices moving to other states like TX, we just had two local financial institutions implode.

[goldengirlz]

May 2, 2023 22:39:09 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

It’s interesting to hear other cities are facing similar issues/news.

It’s so hard to watch places you love no longer feel like the place you once knew. We know the businesses leaving has a real impact on city revenue. It’s hard to imagine how we come back from this, but I suppose it is possible (and clearly not everyone was thriving before the pandemic). Or things will forever be different and continue to evolve.

I’ve talked a lot in this thread, but I’m bullish on SF. We still have a housing shortage and maybe this exodus of rich people will bring back a vibrant artist community. SF and the Bay Area in general still have some of the most amazing scenery and arguably some of the best weather in the country (even with climate change and wildfires — although I agree that’s another issue that stands to make the Bay Area less appealing.) The ‘burbs are still seeing demand for houses (though prices have come down) and Silicon Valley is still leading the way on AI. So, you know. Plus, do young people really want to live in Mountain View and Cupertino? Snooze.

ETA: People always talk about tech as a boom and bust industry too — like just look at the bursting of the dot-com bubble of the early 2000s. Plus, Zuckerberg et al are already talking about making employees come back to the office.

[konapoppy]

May 2, 2023 22:51:17 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 2, 2023 22:39:09 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

It’s interesting to hear other cities are facing similar issues/news.

It’s so hard to watch places you love no longer feel like the place you once knew. We know the businesses leaving has a real impact on city revenue. It’s hard to imagine how we come back from this, but I suppose it is possible (and clearly not everyone was thriving before the pandemic). Or things will forever be different and continue to evolve.

I’ve talked a lot in this thread, but I’m bullish on SF. We still have a housing shortage and maybe this exodus of rich people will bring back a vibrant artist community. SF and the Bay Area in general still have some of the most amazing scenery and arguably some of the best weather in the country (even with climate change and wildfires — although I agree that’s another issue that stands to make the Bay Area less appealing.) The ‘burbs are still see bidding wars for houses (though prices have come down) and Silicon Valley is still leading the way on AI. So, you know. Plus, do you young people really want to live in Mountain View and Cupertino? Snooze.

I am glad you are optimistic! I have been surprised that house sales are still competitive where I am - with interest rates and everything going on. Plus it is harder to get insurance coverage.

[krystee]

San Francisco is one of my favorite places! I was a little taken aback when we went most recently, though, and locals were like, “Do not leave a single thing in your car. It WILL be broken into.” Our car was never broken into, but it seemed like it must be a very common thing given how many people were telling us this.

I live near Chicago, and it was very eerie going to the theatre the other night because there were truly like 50 police cars around the immediate area. The weekend before there had been large crowds of teenagers blocking streets and shots were fired/bystanders were assaulted But while that isn’t good, it is really overdone in the news coverage. It makes you think this stuff is happening 24/7 when it’s a moment in time that is played and replayed and replayed…our night there was beautiful and peaceful.

I don’t know what the answer is to changing it. Neighborhoods need to be safer so a zillion teens don’t have to congregate in one place. Houses need to be more affordable and public housing more plentiful to reduce the number of unhoused people. Resources for drug addicts are needed. But none of this is a quick and easy fix. Media coverage for sure needs to be fixed, but with “tough on crime” being a Republican rally cry, I don’t see that changing any time soon.

[Deleted]

May 2, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 2, 2023 21:36:11 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

Our rental car was broken into at 2 pm on a Sunday afternoon at a busy In-n-Out right a few blocks from the shopping center mentioned here. We were parked directly in front of the door. And while I know the Bob Lee case was sensationalized, I have to say, we saw fights between homeless people in front of the Apple store and drug deals right in front of the on/off bus stop at Union Square. While this may be nothing to people used to living in big cities, for us it made us seriously reconsider spending any of our tourism dollars there again anytime soon. I'm not sure my perspective is the one you're looking for, but I figured I'd weigh in since our experience was so close to one of the places cited here.

I see this sentiment a lot from tourists (mainly on anonymous message boards like this one) and always think it sounds vaguely like a threat. Like, “Get your act together or we’ll withhold our ‘tourism dollars!’”

Okay?

I am just sharing our family's perspective as a victim of a crime on vacation, which has never happened before. We wouldn't be inclined when deciding where to go again given how violated we felt. It scared our kids immensely. Not sure what else you want me to say. 

[sonrisa]

Yes, there is a chance your car will get broken into in certain areas, especially if you leave stuff in it.

It still feels a hell of a lot safer than so much of this country.

I'd rather risk having my car broken into than live somewhere people open carry or think keeping unsecured guns in your home is everyday normal.

Or where my kid might get assaulted for needing to pee. or I might die if I have an ectopic pregnancy.

I'll stay, thank you. 

[sonrisa]

And as far as sports teams going - sports teams (like an olympics) are such a drain (always wanting new stadiums, new perks, new tax breaks, charging more than most people can afford for tickets).

Yes. It's a shame to lose something that has a regional fan base. But once they are gone, good riddance and *please* don't let some other team get the bright idea of moving in.

[goldengirlz]

May 2, 2023 23:53:39 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

And as far as sports teams going - sports teams (like an olympics) are such a drain (always wanting new stadiums, new perks, new tax breaks, charging more than most people can afford for tickets). Yes. It's a shame to lose something that has a regional fan base. But once they are gone, good riddance and *please* don't let some other team get the bright idea of moving in.

Yeah, the sports teams leaving (some of which were in the works during the peak tech boom years — like the Warriors moving to the new Chase Center) had more to do with Oakland not wanting to invest money in new stadiums as well as deceasing attendance (mostly because the teams were terrible and underfunded, not because of crime.)

This article has an overview: www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/04/20/oakland-losing-3rd-major-sports-team-in-5-years-as-as-sign-las-vegas-deal/?sh=58a703894c22

Also, Oakland Coliseum is so, so bad. H is a Yankees fan so we go to our share of A’s games — and man, that stadium gives me claustrophobia just trying to navigate from the food stands to our seats.

[goldengirlz]

May 2, 2023 23:14:40 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

May 2, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I see this sentiment a lot from tourists (mainly on anonymous message boards like this one) and always think it sounds vaguely like a threat. Like, “Get your act together or we’ll withhold our ‘tourism dollars!’”

Okay?

I am just sharing our family's perspective as a victim of a crime on vacation, which has never happened before. We wouldn't be inclined when deciding where to go again given how violated we felt. It scared our kids immensely. Not sure what else you want me to say. 

I’m sorry that happened to you. Sincerely. I’ve been in your shoes and it’s violating.

It was mostly how you keep insisting that you’re never, ever coming back here, in the tone of an aggrieved customer asking to speak to the manager of this place. We hear you. You hated our city, there were too many unsavory characters for your liking, and you and your coveted tourism dollars won’t ever return.

[AJL]

I'm going to SF for a long weekend on my own at the end of May. It's been one of my favorite cities forever, but I haven't been in four years. I'm assuming it's still generally safe and at least no worse than Austin. I mean, shit, we have open carry here in Texas, so it's got to be safer than that, right?

[mrsukyankee]

Petty crime and homelessness in London has gone up. And, honestly, around the UK. Why? People are more poor, there are less services and the services remaining are poorly funded (from social services to cops), etc. Of course, crime is up - and I'm imagining that it's happening in many places in the US as well.

[konapoppy]

May 3, 2023 2:01:11 GMT -5 AJL said:

I'm going to SF for a long weekend on my own at the end of May. It's been one of my favorite cities forever, but I haven't been in four years. I'm assuming it's still generally safe and at least no worse than Austin. I mean, shit, we have open carry here in Texas, so it's got to be safer than that, right?

Yes, you will very likely be fine. And if you have a rental car, don’t leave anything in it. Even if you stop and get gas, lock everything in the trunk (I know someone who just had their bag stolen while at their car pumping gas). Really, it should be gorgeous and people will be out and about. Eat some yummy things!

[konapoppy]

May 2, 2023 23:42:31 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Yes, there is a chance your car will get broken into in certain areas, especially if you leave stuff in it.

It still feels a hell of a lot safer than so much of this country.

I'd rather risk having my car broken into than live somewhere people open carry or think keeping unsecured guns in your home is everyday normal.

Or where my kid might get assaulted for needing to pee. or I might die if I have an ectopic pregnancy.

I'll stay, thank you. 

I’m not sure if this is in response to me? Obviously there are fantastic policies in place in our state that align to my values. I vote for them.

And at the same time, things have changed. And I do worry about what the decreased revenue will mean for the city longer term. We are just starting to see the effects. California is also a “tough”place for employers in part due to our employment laws- will we see more leave, and will others come? Chevron just finally moved out of the suburbs, for example.

As for the sports teams, the A’s have been doomed for years and years at the coliseum. I just hope that the arena is kept up enough for continued visiting shows, etc. It is a loss of camaraderie and culture. Although I will never, ever miss the Raiders 🤣

[rupertpenny]

May 2, 2023 23:14:40 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

May 2, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I see this sentiment a lot from tourists (mainly on anonymous message boards like this one) and always think it sounds vaguely like a threat. Like, “Get your act together or we’ll withhold our ‘tourism dollars!’”

Okay?

I am just sharing our family's perspective as a victim of a crime on vacation, which has never happened before. We wouldn't be inclined when deciding where to go again given how violated we felt. It scared our kids immensely. Not sure what else you want me to say. 

I live in New York City, not San Francisco, but when you say "while this may be nothing to people living in big cities" it feels very dismissive, like people who live in big cities are without empathy and indifferent to the human suffering we witness in public everyday. 

[tamarindy]

May 3, 2023 0:17:45 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

May 2, 2023 23:14:40 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

I am just sharing our family's perspective as a victim of a crime on vacation, which has never happened before. We wouldn't be inclined when deciding where to go again given how violated we felt. It scared our kids immensely. Not sure what else you want me to say. 

I’m sorry that happened to you. Sincerely. I’ve been in your shoes and it’s violating.

It was mostly how you keep insisting that you’re never, ever coming back here, in the tone of an aggrieved customer asking to speak to the manager of this place. We hear you. You hated our city, there were too many unsavory characters for your liking, and you and your coveted tourism dollars won’t ever return.

Damn. So I guess the answer to the thread title is a resounding “no” then.

[msmerymac]

I live in the Philly suburbs and frequent the city for both work-related reasons and food/entertainment. The political set up of this area lends itself to a huge divide in a way between the city and the outer areas. So for years when I mention a restaurant, museum, or performance in Philadelphia that I enjoyed, I've had neighbors and acquaintances say, "Oh, I don't really go into the city much." Which is frustrating because it's one of the 10 largest cities in the country with a lot to offer and has a fairly robust public transit system, including commuter rail.

Those comments have also been a bit more harsh, usually with a racist tinge, from the contingent of people who moved their kids out to more rural/exurban areas, usually in the 70s, 80s, 90s.

Anyway, there are still plenty of thriving restaurants and events in Philly. I usually go to my city office, which is a block from city hall, smack in the middle of downtown, once every week or two. But the level of poverty in center city (one area where business people and tourists are likely to see and which the city has tried to make look somewhat welcoming) is certainly increasing, and I see many more unhoused people sleeping on sidewalks during the day than I have in the last 10 years I've been here.

But I'm also annoyed that people now feel justified in their view of Philly as "dangerous" or bad.

[Vespasia]

May 3, 2023 7:56:59 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

But I'm also annoyed that people now feel justified in their view of Philly as "dangerous" or bad.

As someone who lives in Baltimore, I totally get it. We definitely have problems but so much of the narrative has serious racist undertones. There's also a strong feeling that we can criticize the city all we want but god forbid someone from outside does. Then we're gonna fight. It's kind of like family.

[TR]

This is timely. Two of my friends and I are going to the general area for a long weekend in July for my 40th birthday. The main objective was to go to Model Bakery in Napa (I'm a carb person, leave me alone lol) but Napa was all booked up/too expensive so we booked a hotel in San Francisco. Both of their husbands were like "Hell no, it's way too dangerous" and I was really surprised. We now have a place just outside of Sonoma booked and will have to decide which we want to do. This thread offers some good perspectives.

[konapoppy]

How are other cities handling public transit? WFH has dramatically reduced ridership. Even my friends in the transportation field are driving more because the timing of the trains has been unreliable. And as discussed, the visibility of crime has increased. BART policing is unlikely the answer (and one that we know can have deadly implications).

www.bart.gov/news/articles/2023/news20230224-0

[pixy0stix]

My small city has cut public transit to the bone. It's not so much that ridership has changed, but that they can't find drivers. Some of that is tied to unruly passengers.

[scm1011]

May 3, 2023 8:12:09 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

How are other cities handling public transit? WFH has dramatically reduced ridership. Even my friends in the transportation field are driving more because the timing of the trains has been unreliable. And as discussed, the visibility of crime has increased. BART policing is unlikely the answer (and one that we know can have deadly implications).

www.bart.gov/news/articles/2023/news20230224-0

Public transportation in Boston has become an absolute DISASTER. Trains are unreliable at best, shut down for long periods of time, and crime has increased. DH, who hates driving with the fire of 1000 suns, has taken to driving half the time because his former 50 minute ride (from one end of the city to the other) now often takes 90+ minutes and as a teacher he really can't be late. A couple months ago his iphone was stolen out of his hand and the thief got away. I avoid the T these days too and mostly get around by e-bike instead (which I'm constantly worried about getting stolen).

ETA: All that said, I do not feel "unsafe" here.