Titanic tourist submersible goes missing

[rubytue]

Jun 21, 2023 13:20:56 GMT -5 aurora said:

Jun 21, 2023 13:10:49 GMT -5 lahoagie said:

How do beacons and tracking devices work down in the ocean? There is no GPS or satellite down there, right? How do we track submarines? I get if the submersible popped up in the middle of the ocean a beacon would be a must, just trying to figure out how it would work down on the ocean floor.

I've been wondering about this. Commercial emergency tracking devices like EPIRBs are ubiquitous on boats (required on many) and cost nothing compared to the vessel. There must be a scientific reason they don't have one of they really don't, like for example the transmissions can't be received through so much water or the device would fail at those pressures. I don't know the actual reason, but these seem plausible.

ETA or I could have waited a minute for mala 's post.

I literally have an emergency beacon in my cube. Hazards of working for an ex coast guard guy when we bought a boat. And I never took it to the boat 🤦‍♀️ But yeah… this is crazy. 

NPR last night was saying it’s white, and even if it did surface, the seas are 6’ and white capped. So, you know, no one would see it. I think of all those bright orange life boats and rafts in ships. You know, there are reasons things are designed the way they are.  [edit, I see this was covered in the page I skipped catching up]

But on the controller thing, the NPR story talked about that some, about how it actually is a robust method and intuitive, for people who have been playing video games for year. And, this story talking about the Navy using Xbox controllers on subs.  taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/us-military-video-game-controllers-war/

[rubytue]

One more thought, and this may be a controversial take, but I often consider that none of us are getting out alive. And then, people do stuff and die. But they are doing it because they love it (rock climbing, BASE jumping, backcountry skiing). The risks are self evident. And ii find there is some peace in going doing something you love. Even the guy who has a heart attack on a golf course.

Now, I guess for these people, other than all lose of life being tragic, I kind of take that perspective on it. As far as the people. Of course, all sorts of WTF with it and the $$$$ rescue effort.

[goldengirlz]

Jun 21, 2023 14:04:29 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jun 21, 2023 13:56:20 GMT -5 aurora said:

Ok, I Googled, and if this article is true then the lack of emergency beacon was simple hubris.

www.thedailybeast.com/missing-titanic-sub-plagued-by-a-long-history-of-deadly-safety-issues

Unbelievable.

Whoa! He’s quite the asshole. And now the militaries of multiple countries are trying to save him because of the lack of basic safety. I hope the company is forced to pay for these rescue efforts.

Seriously. Everyone is talking about how that $250k per ticket could have been better spent elsewhere — but that $1 million is a drop in the bucket of this rescue mission. And those are actual funds earmarked for public safety.

[goldengirlz]

Jun 21, 2023 15:10:46 GMT -5 rubytue said:

One more thought, and this may be a controversial take, but I often consider that none of us are getting out alive. And then, people do stuff and die. But they are doing it because they love it (rock climbing, BASE jumping, backcountry skiing). The risks are self evident. And ii find there is some peace in going doing something you love. Even the guy who has a heart attack on a golf course.

Now, I guess for these people, other than all lose of life being tragic, I kind of take that perspective on it. As far as the people. Of course, all sorts of WTF with it and the $$$$ rescue effort.

I equate it to what’s happening on Mount Everest. This extreme tourism trend has very real environmental impacts, not to mention the human and financial cost for the people who attempt these rescue missions. Like at this point, it’s pretty much understood that if you freeze to death on Everest, there’s almost no chance of anyone coming to retrieve your body. None of this happens in a vacuum and that’s where the ethics of doing these risky things come in.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 21, 2023 15:30:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jun 21, 2023 15:10:46 GMT -5 rubytue said:

One more thought, and this may be a controversial take, but I often consider that none of us are getting out alive. And then, people do stuff and die. But they are doing it because they love it (rock climbing, BASE jumping, backcountry skiing). The risks are self evident. And ii find there is some peace in going doing something you love. Even the guy who has a heart attack on a golf course.

Now, I guess for these people, other than all lose of life being tragic, I kind of take that perspective on it. As far as the people. Of course, all sorts of WTF with it and the $$$$ rescue effort.

I equate it to what’s happening on Mount Everest. This extreme tourism trend has very real environmental impacts, not to mention the human and financial cost for the people who attempt these rescue missions. Like at this point, it’s pretty much understood that if you freeze to death on Everest, there’s almost no chance of anyone coming to retrieve your body. None of this happens in a vacuum and that’s where the ethics of doing these risky things come in.

What's happening on Everest is a crime. The pictures of the trash, the "traffic jams", etc. It's a fucking joke at this point.

[wawa]

Jun 21, 2023 15:30:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jun 21, 2023 15:10:46 GMT -5 rubytue said:

One more thought, and this may be a controversial take, but I often consider that none of us are getting out alive. And then, people do stuff and die. But they are doing it because they love it (rock climbing, BASE jumping, backcountry skiing). The risks are self evident. And ii find there is some peace in going doing something you love. Even the guy who has a heart attack on a golf course.

Now, I guess for these people, other than all lose of life being tragic, I kind of take that perspective on it. As far as the people. Of course, all sorts of WTF with it and the $$$$ rescue effort.

I equate it to what’s happening on Mount Everest. This extreme tourism trend has very real environmental impacts, not to mention the human and financial cost for the people who attempt these rescue missions. Like at this point, it’s pretty much understood that if you freeze to death on Everest, there’s almost no chance of anyone coming to retrieve your body. None of this happens in a vacuum.

My family black sheep republican great uncle commented on my cousin's post on Facebook that all these coasties and other military craft and people are just sitting around fully manned and unused anyway. So the cost for actual deployment of those capabilities is nothing compared to the cost of just having them (which is sunk for us as a country).

Which obviously totally ignores the cost of RISK to actually sending them out onto the ocean to try and find these idiots, but...I was curious if anybody knows if that's an otherwise valid point? Like, coast guard has these ships and the crew. But we're now spending gas and actual person hours in this search. So....what's the cost of mobilization for this sort of stuff, and is it peanuts compared to just the day to day holding cost of them existing? Or is this some sort of weird "don't be mean to rich people" republican talking point he's parroting and that's fucking bullshit?

(that wouldn't be at all out of character...I don't speak to this man)

[pixy0stix]

Jun 21, 2023 15:37:23 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 21, 2023 15:30:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I equate it to what’s happening on Mount Everest. This extreme tourism trend has very real environmental impacts, not to mention the human and financial cost for the people who attempt these rescue missions. Like at this point, it’s pretty much understood that if you freeze to death on Everest, there’s almost no chance of anyone coming to retrieve your body. None of this happens in a vacuum.

My family black sheep republican great uncle commented on my cousin's post on Facebook that all these coasties and other military craft and people are just sitting around fully manned and unused anyway. So the cost for actual deployment of those capabilities is nothing compared to the cost of just having them (which is sunk for us as a country).

Which obviously totally ignores the cost of RISK to actually sending them out onto the ocean to try and find these idiots, but...I was curious if anybody knows if that's an otherwise valid point? Like, coast guard has these ships and the crew. But we're now spending gas and actual person hours in this search. So....what's the cost of mobilization for this sort of stuff, and is it peanuts compared to just the day to day holding cost of them existing? Or is this some sort of weird "don't be mean to rich people" republican talking point he's parroting and that's fucking bullshit?

(that wouldn't be at all out of character...I don't speak to this man)

Complicated question and this goes into why - adventure.com/who-should-pay-for-rescue-missions/

The answer is ? Rescue operations often have incurred costs of much more money because you pay overtime and hazard pay, use of fuel and equipment that would most like have sat stored, etc. We get this a lot in CO because people are forever and always going hiking unprepared in flip flops, etc.

[HRH Queen Dick I]

"Cocky privileged white male gets people killed" sounds vaguely familiar.

[rubytue]

My point was only meant to be that the only tragedy here is the colossal waste of resources, money, and environmental impact of the whole thing. Not that anyone was crying for this people here, but just message boarding thoughts.

[pumpkin]

The co. is in the greater Seattle area and as I was a listening to the local news earlier they were discussing the dangers and reported that a former employee/engineer sued the co. after he left. I didn’t get to hear more as I got called into a meeting, but it’s been sounding like a lot of not good judgment has been surrounding this co. for years.

[rubytue]

Jun 21, 2023 15:55:28 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

The co. is in the greater Seattle area and as I was a listening to the local news earlier they were discussing the dangers and reported that a former employee/engineer sued the co. after he left. I didn’t get to hear more as I got called into a meeting, but it’s been sounding like a lot of not good judgment has been surrounding this co. for years.

The post article went into this a bit. I feel like there was more earlier (article says updated 6 minutes ago). But it does get a couple paragraphs here wapo.st/446CjdG

[TR]

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

[sent]

Jun 21, 2023 15:55:28 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

The co. is in the greater Seattle area and as I was a listening to the local news earlier they were discussing the dangers and reported that a former employee/engineer sued the co. after he left. I didn’t get to hear more as I got called into a meeting, but it’s been sounding like a lot of not good judgment has been surrounding this co. for years.

Someone posted about the person that sued earlier in the thread. 

[mala]

Jun 21, 2023 13:20:56 GMT -5 aurora said:

Jun 21, 2023 13:10:49 GMT -5 lahoagie said:

How do beacons and tracking devices work down in the ocean? There is no GPS or satellite down there, right? How do we track submarines? I get if the submersible popped up in the middle of the ocean a beacon would be a must, just trying to figure out how it would work down on the ocean floor.

I've been wondering about this. Commercial emergency tracking devices like EPIRBs are ubiquitous on boats (required on many) and cost nothing compared to the vessel. There must be a scientific reason they don't have one of they really don't, like for example the transmissions can't be received through so much water or the device would fail at those pressures. I don't know the actual reason, but these seem plausible.

ETA or I could have waited a minute for mala's post.

This is basically it. Recreational boats have transmitters which work up to so deep, and for the most part the boats are staying where they'll work. But plenty of boats go over deeper water and when they sink can't be found. Once you go so deep, the water is so dense that getting any kind of signal or wave to travel through it is incredibly difficult. Think of how much effort it can be to make a wave with a kickboard in a pool, then imagine trying to do that in water that is 363 times harder (about 363 atomospheres at 4,000 meeter (edited because i mised up meeters and feet lmao) deep in the ocean according to a quick google). Subs only go so deep and that's about as far as we can reliably track them, and even then subs go "missing" fairly often. Radio waves don't penetrate water, sonar only goes one or two thousand meters. I believe the really deep unmanned explorer craft like are in the Marianas Trench are teathered, meaning they have a cable that goes all the way to the ship which transmits data. There's no way to get information from the submersible to the ship otherwise, you'd have to wait until it resurfaces.

[eddy]

Jun 21, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -5 TR said:

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

There are so many funny tiktoks with this theme!

[rachers]

Popping in randomly but I wish Bill Hader had a reaction to the fact that he’s like 90% of the TikTok memes right now. At least on mine!

The whole thing is so insane to me.

[pinkyp]

The more I hear about this mess the more infuriating it becomes. This was all essentially for bragging rights at the end of the day. I'm paraphrasing but I read something yesterday (might have been a tweet) about even if you have the means, maybe *don't* tempt fate to visit the grave of John Jacob Astor, who learned firsthand how little ungodly wealth impresses the Atlantic abyss.

[AAM2012]

Jun 21, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -5 TR said:

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

Legit spilled my drink loling!!!

[spinnaker5]

Jun 21, 2023 15:37:23 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 21, 2023 15:30:56 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

My family black sheep republican great uncle commented on my cousin's post on Facebook that all these coasties and other military craft and people are just sitting around fully manned and unused anyway. So the cost for actual deployment of those capabilities is nothing compared to the cost of just having them (which is sunk for us as a country).

Guess great uncle doesn’t know or understand that the USCG is one of the branches of the military, which in addition to search and rescue, does a significant amount of law enforcement (narcotics seizures for example), vessel safety and security inspections, disaster management, humanitarian assistance, port safety, maintaining coastal buoys and other critical navigation aids, just to name some of their other responsibilities? They’re not f***ing “just sitting around.”

This got under my collar because recreational sailors have HUGE gratitude for everything the USCG does. I don’t know what the cost of a rescue effort like this is, but, not cheap. And yes, risky. 

[maudefindlay]

A CBS staffer who rode in this contraption for a story last year said they use a rusty pipe for a ballast. There are 18 bolts that they put in from the outside to seal you in. He listened and they only did 17. Was told the 18th one is up high and just didn't matter. Comforting.

[pinkyp]

It seems Stockton Rush's wife is the great-great granddaughter of Isidor and Ira Straus, both of whom died on Titanic.

www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/wendy-stockton-rush-titanic-missing-submersible.html

[wise_rita]

Jun 21, 2023 14:48:29 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Jun 21, 2023 13:20:56 GMT -5 aurora said:

I've been wondering about this. Commercial emergency tracking devices like EPIRBs are ubiquitous on boats (required on many) and cost nothing compared to the vessel. There must be a scientific reason they don't have one of they really don't, like for example the transmissions can't be received through so much water or the device would fail at those pressures. I don't know the actual reason, but these seem plausible.

ETA or I could have waited a minute for mala 's post.

I literally have an emergency beacon in my cube. Hazards of working for an ex coast guard guy when we bought a boat. And I never took it to the boat 🤦‍♀️ But yeah… this is crazy. 

NPR last night was saying it’s white, and even if it did surface, the seas are 6’ and white capped. So, you know, no one would see it. I think of all those bright orange life boats and rafts in ships. You know, there are reasons things are designed the way they are.  [edit, I see this was covered in the page I skipped catching up]

Imagine that minivan sized thing being tossed around in six foot rough seas! No seatbelts in there, surely. I wonder if they'd even survive that beating.

[jennybee1018]

Jun 21, 2023 20:07:49 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

A CBS staffer who rode in this contraption for a story last year said they use a rusty pipe for a ballast. There are 18 bolts that they put in from the outside to seal you in. He listened and they only did 17. Was told the 18th one is up high and just didn't matter. Comforting.

I had been hearing that it was bolted from the outside (which, wtf - how do you assume you're getting out safely if the worst should happen), but the fact that there are 18 and the didn't do the last one?!

I've also gone down the rabbit hole with all of you and I am just baffled at the whole situation. All literally so preventable if we just put that money elsewhere and don't try to go where we aren't supposed to!

This is why water is my #1 fear!

[basilosaurus]

I don't really have oceanic fears. I've happily night swum/dived. We'd jump overboard in mile deep water with just a drift line. 6ft seas aren't fun, but I've encountered then in a small sub 20ft boat and not felt afraid.

I'm saying aw hell naw to this. And that's before addressing the spare 250k being put to this absurd use. So many levels of bad judgment

[nothingcontroversial]

Jun 21, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -5 TR said:

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

Actually, there was at least one woman on one of the previous trips. She was interviewed for this article. She is the person who the article identified as a "bank executive."


westportjournal.com/community/pogue-saw-improvised-elements-on-missing-sub-in-search-of-titanic/

[rubytue]

Jun 22, 2023 7:07:37 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I don't really have oceanic fears. I've happily night swum/dived. We'd jump overboard in mile deep water with just a drift line. 6ft seas aren't fun, but I've encountered then in a small sub 20ft boat and not felt afraid.

I'm saying aw hell naw to this. And that's before addressing the spare 250k being put to this absurd use. So many levels of bad judgment

I’m mostly with you. But I must say, when I was snorkeling at “The Wall” in grand Turk (one of those points just offshore where there is an underwater cliff, from like 30’ to 1500’). It was disconcerting. So, maybe I’m not… 

[Velar Fricative]

Jun 22, 2023 7:15:01 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Jun 21, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -5 TR said:

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

Actually, there was at least one woman on one of the previous trips. She was interviewed for this article. She is the person who the article identified as a "bank executive."


westportjournal.com/community/pogue-saw-improvised-elements-on-missing-sub-in-search-of-titanic/

I think the point still stands as 50%+ of the adult population is female and we’ve identified only 1 of however many total passengers that have done this. Women overall are indeed like fuck no.

[hermione]

Jun 22, 2023 7:15:01 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Jun 21, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -5 TR said:

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

Actually, there was at least one woman on one of the previous trips. She was interviewed for this article. She is the person who the article identified as a "bank executive."


westportjournal.com/community/pogue-saw-improvised-elements-on-missing-sub-in-search-of-titanic/

The pilot/CEO's wife has also done it. And is a direct descendent of the uber-wealthy Isidor and Ida Straus - who both died on the Titanic.


www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/wendy-stockton-rush-titanic-missing-submersible.html?unlocked_article_code=N5koJYwV977GhVueXD84dOnJJc47m6yhGYcya0eVUpM_6QoPEa4sh8-Mi903ksxF1OYHFrFBLVD2Qv2wb2sxS_2hnsJ6RULugwcfwWZtKCJ9axwg_fNKe1y00zDuJrJBrN9UxuSC6ZJFStkbJpeV0XUXyISD3tpQwK1whnvR_wEXLPmMLv0Rtdq8c1aOJNtCAzPSFFVTiYhyjQ1GdpmsHnESqeoChfUoUDr1hGkkoIgtErQjX_o-PdlI3QiwqqrPEbX3w2pDigDQG9UCBi5X-YTMeqtaMr_lttIWPdcsrQAstoyRvAw4BPH-1Gl61RElsyNkEjBvGVFTjon3Twx-gIrROWoYbJwWzoQ5P_BROmUWmRWm&smid=url-share 

[mx27]

Jun 22, 2023 7:15:01 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Jun 21, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -5 TR said:

You know who's not on that ship submersible? Women.

Actually, there was at least one woman on one of the previous trips. She was interviewed for this article. She is the person who the article identified as a "bank executive."


westportjournal.com/community/pogue-saw-improvised-elements-on-missing-sub-in-search-of-titanic/

but we’re talking about the submersible that is currently missing. The fact is, there aren’t any women on it.

[hermione]

Jun 22, 2023 7:48:16 GMT -5 mx27 said:

Jun 22, 2023 7:15:01 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Actually, there was at least one woman on one of the previous trips. She was interviewed for this article. She is the person who the article identified as a "bank executive."


westportjournal.com/community/pogue-saw-improvised-elements-on-missing-sub-in-search-of-titanic/

but we’re talking about the submersible that is currently missing. The fact is, there aren’t any women on it.

Ok? It's not a huge stretch to then say, "Yes, but there has been a woman before."