Debate - Severe weather/personal vs venue responsibility

[wildrice]

Jun 22, 2023 15:42:41 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:39:40 GMT -5 wildrice said:

And I honestly wouldn't at Red Rocks either so I think I would have trusted the venue (or at the very least, the performer) to make the right call. 

Oooh, third responsible party? The performer?

Yeah, IDK how much the performer should be responsible financially for fan injuries, but I can see the performer - especially if it's someone with a big name - refusing to perform in golf ball sized hail! They and their crew would be in danger too in that case, not to mention many of them actually care about their fans and don't want them hurt either.

[wanderingback]

Jun 22, 2023 15:51:12 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

Sirens are normal in the midwest! I think Maryland is the first state I've lived in that does NOT have them (at least not that I've heard yet!). They went off many times every summer in the Midwestern states I lived in, though. And also, in places where you frequently get heavy storms/tornados/sirens, most people just go about their day and typical plans, anyway. Probably 90% of the time when there is a tornado watch, you never actually end up with a tornado.

Yes I’ve lived in the Midwest. I don’t remember getting sirens for regular thunderstorms as those were a daily occurrence. But I see above it was clarified that the sirens are for tornados, certain wind speeds and certain hail sizes. That makes sense.

[eddy]

I would be very pissed to take the loss of a ticket. Those things are expensive at Red Rock. I think the venue absolutely should have been responsible and cancelled the show. 

We are going in a couple weeks so this story caught my eye. 

[pixy0stix]

It's hailing baseballs in the Denverish area right now.

[abs]

I saw this and was wondering how much notice there was on the storm. We had a storm come through last night with 100 mph wind gusts and it caused an insane amount of damage/massive power outages. It sounded and looked like a hurricane and was awful. A lot of people were out in it because the storm arrived ten hours earlier than expected. It’s the first time I’ve ever experienced that! I was wondering if the Red Rocks situation was the same—a missed forecast. If not I place most responsibility on the venue/performer. I personally would have stayed home regardless but concerts are $$$. If it’s not canceled I don’t blame people for assuming it will be ok.

[gretchenindisguise]

Jun 22, 2023 15:51:12 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

Sirens are normal in the midwest! I think Maryland is the first state I've lived in that does NOT have them (at least not that I've heard yet!). They went off many times every summer in the Midwestern states I lived in, though. And also, in places where you frequently get heavy storms/tornados/sirens, most people just go about their day and typical plans, anyway. Probably 90% of the time when there is a tornado watch, you never actually end up with a tornado.

I think its even higher than 90%.

I grew up in St Louis and we joked that every summer day forecast was the exact same: hazy, hot and humid with a chance of afternoon thunderstorms, possibly severe. Every day was a tornado watch day. I lived there from ages 7-25 and never saw or was even close to a tornado. Even when it escalated to a warning with the sirens, still never saw one or was actually in the path of one. Yay but also made the watches nearly meaningless.

[Poeticxpassion]

Jun 22, 2023 15:53:46 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:42:41 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oooh, third responsible party? The performer?

Yeah, IDK how much the performer should be responsible financially for fan injuries, but I can see the performer - especially if it's someone with a big name - refusing to perform in golf ball sized hail! They and their crew would be in danger too in that case, not to mention many of them actually care about their fans and don't want them hurt either.

The performer last night was Louis Tomlinson. He was a member of One Direction.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 22, 2023 16:23:13 GMT -5 abs said:

I saw this and was wondering how much notice there was on the storm. We had a storm come through last night with 100 mph wind gusts and it caused an insane amount of damage/massive power outages. It sounded and looked like a hurricane and was awful. A lot of people were out in it because the storm arrived ten hours earlier than expected. It’s the first time I’ve ever experienced that! I was wondering if the Red Rocks situation was the same—a missed forecast. If not I place most responsibility on the venue/performer. I personally would have stayed home regardless but concerts are $$$. If it’s not canceled I don’t blame people for assuming it will be ok.

No, it's been in the forecast for at least a week. The intensity forecast held through it all, and increased a bit day of.

[gretchenindisguise]

I think venue bears responsibility.

[Poeticxpassion]

[Poeticxpassion]

This is the hail right now in Littleton. It hurts to get hit.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 22, 2023 16:40:19 GMT -5 Poeticxpassion said:

This is the hail right now in Littleton. It hurts to get hit.

I'm watching the news and holy shit.

[AJL]

I think it's a bit of both. Personally, I would have skipped the concert. But I also think the venue should have cancelled. 

[Scout'sHonor]

Jun 22, 2023 16:40:19 GMT -5 Poeticxpassion said:

This is the hail right now in Littleton. It hurts to get hit.

And they're saying a tornado down there too   

[audette]

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:31:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Severe thunderstorms are often foreseeable. Like when we had tornado warnings (back when we lived in another state), we typically knew hours in advance. Once the sirens were blaring, you pretty much had to hunker down where you were.

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

But regardless, yes I think it's the responsibility of the event space to ultimately do their best to ensure people's safety. I would presume a mostly outdoor venue would have some sort of plan for predicted severe weather. But of course I'm sure they do everything they can to not cancel and I'm sure there is some fine print on tickets that makes them not responsible. 

But to answer OPs question/the radio hosts questions I think it's more the venues responsibility because there are plenty of reasons why a patron might not realize what the threat level is and it's specific to that local area and venue. 

Where I live (IL, well outside of Chicago), weather sirens sound for tornados, for straight line winds greater than 70 mph, or hail greater than a certain diameter (can't remember the exact number, but a hazardous size).  They have to publicize this info frequently in the spring each year as we hear them go off for any of the above reasons, and people seem to forget from one year to the next.

To me, the sirens mean bad, bad weather, take shelter now.  After, of course, the obligatory Midwest action of stepping outside for a moment to see just how bad it is...  (sarcasm, but a lot of folks do it)


ETA: Sorry for repeating...  I should have read further.  (I read a few posts past yours, but... not far enough.)

[aurora]

Jun 22, 2023 14:25:44 GMT -5 erbear said:

I think you’re right, and I don’t know if I would have skipped it. The way I see it, it is the responsibility of the venue to keep people safe. I would assume that if the venue didn’t cancel or postpone, they must have reason to think they could keep people safe. They should have canceled the concert and not put people in a position to lose their money if the concert happened (I assume it didn’t).

That said, I agree that people have to take some personal responsibility. Once they were there and could see the weather developing (or before they arrived by checking an app), they should have taken shelter in a car or stayed home. I would not have stayed at the arena with the weather on the way like that.

Having seen how quickly hail rolls in over the mountains, and knowing the layout of Red Rocks including stairs and winding paths from much of the arena to parking, even as a very able-bodied athlete I probably wouldn't have made it to my car in time.

There definitely isn't enough covered area to protect all attendees.

That said, I also would likely have skipped the concert knowing the forecast. But I am privileged enough to know that wasting the cost of a concert ticket won't hurt too badly.

[aurora]

Jun 22, 2023 14:59:49 GMT -5 wawa said:

I think going forward with an event you knew was going to be unsafe is irresponsible even if people ALSO should have just planned to stay home. Like...I don't know how red rocks is set up, were the performers safe? vendors? their own site employees?

But ultimately (in my mind, if not the law) it's everybody's own responsibility to literally come in out of the rain. Unless we're talking about a situation where they didn't have appropriate egress paths and people were trapped in the open while trying to seek shelter in a timely fashion, I think everybody can share some responsibility.

side note: How the heck do you guys get anything done if you're getting hailed on all the time this time of year though? The sky just throws chunks of ice at you and you're like, "omg, isn't it great here! let's go be outdoorsy!"

Paragraph 1: performers and vendors are under roofs.

Paragraph 2: I am not an expert on egress but can't imagine people*wouldn't* be trapped outside in fast-moving hail. In a regular exit situation it would take 5-10 min to navigate out of the area and these storms ramp up faster than that.

Paragraph 3: usually hail season doesn't really start until July so we have June to enjoy the outdoors. 😄 But more seriously, our severe weather is almost always in the afternoon, so you can still do stuff outside in the mornings most days.

[tacokick]

Jun 22, 2023 15:51:12 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

Sirens are normal in the midwest! I think Maryland is the first state I've lived in that does NOT have them (at least not that I've heard yet!). They went off many times every summer in the Midwestern states I lived in, though. And also, in places where you frequently get heavy storms/tornados/sirens, most people just go about their day and typical plans, anyway. Probably 90% of the time when there is a tornado watch, you never actually end up with a tornado.

We have sirens (and can get big hail!) we just don’t have the kind of weather that normally requires them very frequently. You can hear the test every once in a while.

[tacokick]

I think the venue and the preformed should have canceled if it is a real threat.

But I also can’t imagine trusting that some venue/company is going to do the right thing and would use my own judgement either way. Even as a young teenager going to concerts I understood they don’t really care about you. You gotta be ready to go!

[neverfstop]

I think it's both.... Thunderstorms are unpredictable & there was a pretty decent chance there would NOT be a direct hit (of the hail at least). If this occurs frequently, I would think there would be an appropriate place to take shelter, even just from regular thunderstorms and lightening.

At least around here, once a storm "cell" pops up, you can get a trajectory, a feeling if there is hail or tornadoes, etc. RR should have a weather monitor & I would imagine they had at least 15-30 min of warning that a specific storm cell with likely threatening weather was headed their way. At that point they should have given the "take cover" warning. The timeline in the OP is a little murky- radar should have picked up that weather headed for them, even if the NWS hadn't issued an official alert.

[fumbalina]

I think there is shared blame here. The venue should have proactively offered refunds, but of course that is very expensive. The concert-goers should have realized no one should be out during a hail storm. I do appreciate when the performer cancels because that tends to be one of the things that venues have insured for, however depending on their contract they may be taking a major hit to future income or even be unable to use that venue in the future. So I would place the majority of blame on the venue.

[mpm]

This thread is about how I’d expect jury deliberations in a premises liability case to go. 😂

[MrsAxilla]

Jun 22, 2023 16:32:05 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 22, 2023 16:23:13 GMT -5 abs said:

I saw this and was wondering how much notice there was on the storm. We had a storm come through last night with 100 mph wind gusts and it caused an insane amount of damage/massive power outages. It sounded and looked like a hurricane and was awful. A lot of people were out in it because the storm arrived ten hours earlier than expected. It’s the first time I’ve ever experienced that! I was wondering if the Red Rocks situation was the same—a missed forecast. If not I place most responsibility on the venue/performer. I personally would have stayed home regardless but concerts are $$$. If it’s not canceled I don’t blame people for assuming it will be ok.

No, it's been in the forecast for at least a week. The intensity forecast held through it all, and increased a bit day of.

In fairness, the forecast changes fast and is usually wrong - lol! Red Rocks is a rain or shine venue and I've been to plenty of shows in the pouring rain. I’ve been to shows where they sent us back to our cars to shelter for storms that maybe or maybe didn’t hit us (not that I personally ever listened). I've also been to plenty of shows dragging unnecessary gear because the storm passed quickly or held out for lower elevations. Red Rocks’s location is unique in that way. Add in the whole stair situation and I think concert-goers assume the risk at that venue - lol.

[steamboat185]

I really feel like the venue screwed up. They had told people it was all clear and to come back at 8:37. The NWS issued the warning at 9:04 and the venue waited 10 minutes to tell people to take shelter giving concertgoers about 2 minutes to take shelter. The extra 10 minutes might have really helped. Could people have cleared out on their own of course, but the venue definitely could have told people earlier and they could have opened more spaces so people could shelter during the crazy hail.

Edit we’ve also had a lot of storms recently where our friends .75 mile north had no hail, but we had inches. Or our school 1 mile east got no rain and our house got several inches. Denver is tough to forecast! We missed all the hail last night and today and only got rain.

[ksun]

I've been at Red Rocks more than once in severe weather. It's personal responsibility, just like going to a baseball game where there's the risk of being hit by a bat or ball.

[steamboat185]

Jun 22, 2023 21:08:10 GMT -5 ksun said:

I've been at Red Rocks more than once in severe weather. It's personal responsibility, just like going to a baseball game where there's the risk of being hit by a bat or ball.

Wouldn’t it be like going to a baseball game where they hold the game and have people shelter due to severe weather?

[MrsAxilla]

Jun 22, 2023 22:05:29 GMT -5 steamboat185 said:

Jun 22, 2023 21:08:10 GMT -5 ksun said:

I've been at Red Rocks more than once in severe weather. It's personal responsibility, just like going to a baseball game where there's the risk of being hit by a bat or ball.

Wouldn’t it be like going to a baseball game where they hold the game and have people shelter due to severe weather?

Also happened to me multiple times at Coors Field (honestly it’s happened at more outdoor venues than I can count. Google phish dicks naked dude; no pornographic material, despite the search terms) and there’s not always adequate shelter so people are sent to their cars and now people Uber so where do they go??

[basilosaurus]

Jun 22, 2023 15:16:53 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I ultimately think it's the venue's responsibility.
What if you were traveling all day, just arrived and didn't know about the many hours of weather warnings?
What if you're a tourist and don't know the exact set up of red rocks? I certainly don't.

Did people get injured trying to leave as the show was canceled? Is there any indoor area for safety?

Yeah, people do travel far for that venue. And if they're not local they won't be driving subarus with NOAA weather radio (do newer models still have that?).

Years ago I went to a concert about 3 hours away, and I retruned in a massive thunderstorm. But, I had no idea that was anyything more than heavy rain. It came to be known as the veterans day tornado outbreak (not tornado season), and I was driving the same road where they hit and tossed semis around mere minutes after I passed. That was pre smartphone era, but even if we had instant access to info, we wouldn't have checked.

Only indoors is the bathroom/visitor center. It's not big. And it's relatively far from nearby towns. 

[wildrice]

Jun 22, 2023 23:30:42 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Jun 22, 2023 22:05:29 GMT -5 steamboat185 said:

Wouldn’t it be like going to a baseball game where they hold the game and have people shelter due to severe weather?

Also happened to me multiple times at Coors Field (honestly it’s happened at more outdoor venues than I can count. Google phish dicks naked dude; no pornographic material, despite the search terms) and there’s not always adequate shelter so people are sent to their cars and now people Uber so where do they go??

Also how does the venue track who is returning? Most places are mobile entry only these days and tickets can't be scanned twice. Once you leave, you can't come back.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 23, 2023 6:59:19 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jun 22, 2023 23:30:42 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Also happened to me multiple times at Coors Field (honestly it’s happened at more outdoor venues than I can count. Google phish dicks naked dude; no pornographic material, despite the search terms) and there’s not always adequate shelter so people are sent to their cars and now people Uber so where do they go??

Also how does the venue track who is returning? Most places are mobile entry only these days and tickets can't be scanned twice. Once you leave, you can't come back.

In theory the venue has enough time to stamp hands or hand out wristbands for re-entry.