I had Alanis Morissette tickets that I made the personal decision to skip out on last year due to a tornado warning. The venue also did the right thing and cancelled the show. It was an open air venue. I was really happy to get the refund. It’s definitely on the venue to cancel if they can’t provide a safe experience.
Post by steamboat185 on Jun 23, 2023 8:36:42 GMT -5
I think the other thing with this show is that people weren’t allowed to enter areas that could provide shelter- food stands etc. I get that normally they keep people out for safety reasons, but when people are getting hurt, not just wet, let them in. Additionally people couldn’t leave once it started raining because the stairwells were basically rivers. They flooded and people couldn’t walk safely (in addition to being pelted the hail made the ground super slippery).
It seems like maybe venues could give an estimate of the number of people they can shelter, which would help people make better educated decisions.
Also happened to me multiple times at Coors Field (honestly it’s happened at more outdoor venues than I can count. Google phish dicks naked dude; no pornographic material, despite the search terms) and there’s not always adequate shelter so people are sent to their cars and now people Uber so where do they go??
Also how does the venue track who is returning? Most places are mobile entry only these days and tickets can't be scanned twice. Once you leave, you can't come back.
You’d still have the ticket on your phone, right? Couldn’t they just look at it again if you were coming back in the same day or reissue the ticket for a new date if it gets canceled? Why would they need to scan it in an “emergency” situation? If people leave and don’t come back, then that’s like any other time people leave a concert or game early. They don’t keep track of that .
Also how does the venue track who is returning? Most places are mobile entry only these days and tickets can't be scanned twice. Once you leave, you can't come back.
You’d still have the ticket on your phone, right? Couldn’t they just look at it again if you were coming back in the same day or reissue the ticket for a new date if it gets canceled? Why would they need to scan it in an “emergency” situation? If people leave and don’t come back, then that’s like any other time people leave a concert or game early. They don’t keep track of that .
Usually places scan your ticket and then the ticket becomes invalid - this is to avoid allowing multiple people to enter on the same ticket. Since tickets can be shared with another phone/can take a screen shot, this is something venues tend to be really strict about - it has to be a live ticket. So if everyone was already in the venue, left, and then tried to return that same day, they would have no way to validate the ticket. Of course they don't care about people who leave, but they probably would want to prevent people from "coming back" who didn't belong there in the first place. I am not sure how likely it is that these people would be trying to get in, but you never know - I assume at a big show like Taylor Swift where thousands of people gathered in the parking lot just to hear the music from afar, there would be a lot of people trying to sneak in if they weren't able to validate tickets.
Not to mention how long it takes to run security and seat thousands and thousands of people! Oof.
Given the footage above, I think that places more responsibility on the venue. There is a difference between being a rain or shine vanue and having flooded stairs that are unpassable.
We did not leave the venue when there was a tornado warning. We sheltered in a building. But our experience is that a lot of people left and didn't go back to finish the show. The venue should have written procedures on how they would let people back in following a shelter in your car event.
Last week we had an outdoor concert canceled on us due to thunderstorms in the area and we got a full refund of the ticket price. It looked fine from where we live and we would definitely have still gone if the choice was in our hands. The storm ended up skirting the area.
Wouldn't Red Rocks have issued refunds if they canceled and then rescheduled the show? That might not be the most convenient for everyone but seems like the best answer if experts are calling for that type of weather.
I don’t want to be overly cynical, but the reality is such that the only goal of the venue is to make money. To that end, the safety of their patrons only factors in as much as harm impacts them financially - fines, lawsuits, property damage.
Shifting the “blame” from the venue to individual people aka ‘personal responsibility’ just means the venue can operate in a hail storm and it doesn’t cost them much $ even though people got hurt. We all know the decision makers at the venue had the exact same [EDIT - more] information as the individual attendees. So, we either trust or don’t trust that they only operate the event when it’s safe.
The venue has to decide how much it “costs them” to run an unsafe event where people get hurt.
I would have skipped it because of my anxiety around issues having to deal with safety (I chose to not go to the movie theater in early March 2020). BUT I can see how the sunk cost of the tickets and perhaps travel would really suck. Especially if it was a gift or something. I'd definitely be salty that the venue hadn't rescheduled, but they would lose money doing so, which is probably why they didn't.
Also, baseball games get postponed or canceled due to weather all the time.
In fairness, Citizens Bank Park in Philly has a covered area where all the food stands and stuff are, so I've stood there before in rain, but also, sometimes games get called or delayed until a later date or canceled. Like... quite a bit. And that's also a park where people uber or take public transit a lot.
Never experience a rain delay at Dodger Stadium, so I can't tell you anything about that.
You’d still have the ticket on your phone, right? Couldn’t they just look at it again if you were coming back in the same day or reissue the ticket for a new date if it gets canceled? Why would they need to scan it in an “emergency” situation? If people leave and don’t come back, then that’s like any other time people leave a concert or game early. They don’t keep track of that .
Usually places scan your ticket and then the ticket becomes invalid - this is to avoid allowing multiple people to enter on the same ticket. Since tickets can be shared with another phone/can take a screen shot, this is something venues tend to be really strict about - it has to be a live ticket. So if everyone was already in the venue, left, and then tried to return that same day, they would have no way to validate the ticket. Of course they don't care about people who leave, but they probably would want to prevent people from "coming back" who didn't belong there in the first place. I am not sure how likely it is that these people would be trying to get in, but you never know - I assume at a big show like Taylor Swift where thousands of people gathered in the parking lot just to hear the music from afar, there would be a lot of people trying to sneak in if they weren't able to validate tickets.
Not to mention how long it takes to run security and seat thousands and thousands of people! Oof.
Wouldn’t the ticket have your name on it and wouldn’t they have ID? I’ve left a concert and returned before and it was NBD. They looked at the email with the ticket they had already scanned asked to see my ID and that was it.
Would a lot of people leave and on the way out let strangers in the parking lot screen shot their used tickets so they could get in for free? Or send it to friends and tell them to head on over during a weather emergency that they themselves wouldn’t stay for?
Wait, did this show resume after the weather was over???
I think the reality is that if people leave due to bad weather, the event is over and won’t continue after the weather has past. In the case of this storm, I can’t imagine the show resuming after hail and rain like that. So the issue of re-admitting people is probably moot.
Post by Scout'sHonor on Jun 23, 2023 11:25:28 GMT -5
This is just another thing that climate change is affecting. Sure, outdoor venues have always had to contend with possible disruptions, but as the storms get worse (as I feel the hail here in CO has been worse this year), they will have to figure how to keep patrons safe. Places like baseball fields seem to have plenty of covered space, but Red Rocks definitely does not. So maybe that's an upgrade they have to consider.
Wait, did this show resume after the weather was over???
I think the reality is that if people leave due to bad weather, the event is over and won’t continue after the weather has past. In the case of this storm, I can’t imagine the show resuming after hail and rain like that. So the issue of re-admitting people is probably moot.
First opener happened.
They then sent people to their cars.
Called them back.
Sent them away again 2 minutes before the hail. Second opener and Louis did not go on. Postponed until later date.
Shifting the “blame” from the venue to individual people aka ‘personal responsibility’ just means the venue can operate in a hail storm and it doesn’t cost them much $ even though people got hurt. We all know the decision makers at the venue had the exact same information as the individual attendees. So, we either trust or don’t trust that they only operate the event when it’s safe.
But this really shouldn't be true. These venues have safety coordinators, which should include monitoring the weather & any potential storms that are headed towards the venue. It is THEIR job to do so & have access to something more than the free weather channel app most individuals have on their phone to make better judgements, given that they know how many people are in the venue, the amount of "safe space" and an approximation of how long it would take to evacuate or shelter people.
After seeing more of the timeline & footage, I'm going with more blame on the venue. I'd like to see their receipts on all that they did or should have done to be prepared for this foreseeable scenario.
Usually places scan your ticket and then the ticket becomes invalid - this is to avoid allowing multiple people to enter on the same ticket. Since tickets can be shared with another phone/can take a screen shot, this is something venues tend to be really strict about - it has to be a live ticket. So if everyone was already in the venue, left, and then tried to return that same day, they would have no way to validate the ticket. Of course they don't care about people who leave, but they probably would want to prevent people from "coming back" who didn't belong there in the first place. I am not sure how likely it is that these people would be trying to get in, but you never know - I assume at a big show like Taylor Swift where thousands of people gathered in the parking lot just to hear the music from afar, there would be a lot of people trying to sneak in if they weren't able to validate tickets.
Not to mention how long it takes to run security and seat thousands and thousands of people! Oof.
Wouldn’t the ticket have your name on it and wouldn’t they have ID? I’ve left a concert and returned before and it was NBD. They looked at the email with the ticket they had already scanned asked to see my ID and that was it.
Would a lot of people leave and on the way out let strangers in the parking lot screen shot their used tickets so they could get in for free? Or send it to friends and tell them to head on over during a weather emergency that they themselves wouldn’t stay for?
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
I really feel like the venue screwed up. They had told people it was all clear and to come back at 8:37. The NWS issued the warning at 9:04 and the venue waited 10 minutes to tell people to take shelter giving concertgoers about 2 minutes to take shelter. The extra 10 minutes might have really helped. Could people have cleared out on their own of course, but the venue definitely could have told people earlier and they could have opened more spaces so people could shelter during the crazy hail.
Edit we’ve also had a lot of storms recently where our friends .75 mile north had no hail, but we had inches. Or our school 1 mile east got no rain and our house got several inches. Denver is tough to forecast! We missed all the hail last night and today and only got rain.
I read an article that mentioned the time lag between the warning being issued and the venue asking people to clear out, and to me that's the piece that makes this 100% the fault of the venue for not acting more quickly. Especially since it's a place that's difficult to evacuate.
Wouldn’t the ticket have your name on it and wouldn’t they have ID? I’ve left a concert and returned before and it was NBD. They looked at the email with the ticket they had already scanned asked to see my ID and that was it.
Would a lot of people leave and on the way out let strangers in the parking lot screen shot their used tickets so they could get in for free? Or send it to friends and tell them to head on over during a weather emergency that they themselves wouldn’t stay for?
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
this is merely a ticketing system coding challenge. ‘Live’ v ‘invalid’ is a value assigned by their system after the ticket has been scanned. For something this large, do they really not have the ability to reset all the tickets in the situation where something has gone wrong? Because they should get on that. There are so many reasons systems can have errors. Not building in the ability to reset is short sighted and on them.
Wouldn’t the ticket have your name on it and wouldn’t they have ID? I’ve left a concert and returned before and it was NBD. They looked at the email with the ticket they had already scanned asked to see my ID and that was it.
Would a lot of people leave and on the way out let strangers in the parking lot screen shot their used tickets so they could get in for free? Or send it to friends and tell them to head on over during a weather emergency that they themselves wouldn’t stay for?
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
Well, I haven’t since Covid for obvious reasons but I did in January 2020.
I’m looking at the Ticketmaster confirmation with the ticket now and it says “Hi MY NAME here is your ticket for XX concert”. Same for about a dozen other concert tickets in fall and summer 2019. And of course all of my other emails in the same account are addressed to me. The same name as on my ID.
It seems weird to think that wouldn’t be enough during a weather emergency.
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
this is merely a ticketing system coding challenge. ‘Live’ v ‘inactive’is a value assigned by thier systemafter the ticket has been scanned. For something thi large, do they really not have the ability to reset all the tickets in the situation where something has gone wrong? Because they should get on that. There are so many reasons systems can have errors. Not building in the ability to reset is short sighted and on them.
Wouldn't this also pose a logistics problem in that people also stayed in the venue? So you have live tickets that wouldn't be rescanned creating a false count of patrons.
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
Well, I haven’t since Covid for obvious reasons but I did in January 2020.
I’m looking at the Ticketmaster confirmation with the ticket now and it says “Hi MY NAME here is your ticket for XX concert”. Same for about a dozen other concert tickets in fall and summer 2019. And of course all of my other emails in the same account are addressed to me. The same name as on my ID.
It seems weird to think that wouldn’t be enough during a weather emergency.
What would you have if the tickets were sold, or you had purchased them in your name and sent someone else?
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
this is merely a ticketing system coding challenge. ‘Live’ v ‘inactive’is a value assigned by thier systemafter the ticket has been scanned. For something thi large, do they really not have the ability to reset all the tickets in the situation where something has gone wrong? Because they should get on that. There are so many reasons systems can have errors. Not building in the ability to reset is short sighted and on them.
That I don't know - a mass reset may exist! I guess that would answer my original question I do know that for individuals, the venue where I usher usually will send them to the box office to sort things out if they believe their ticket was invalid in error. This works fine for the handful of people this may happen to on a normal night, but would obviously be impossible at a large scale.
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
Well, I haven’t since Covid for obvious reasons but I did in January 2020.
I’m looking at the Ticketmaster confirmation with the ticket now and it says “Hi MY NAME here is your ticket for XX concert”. Same for about a dozen other concert tickets in fall and summer 2019. And of course all of my other emails in the same account are addressed to me. The same name as on my ID.
It seems weird to think that wouldn’t be enough during a weather emergency.
Ok well, I go to events like this regularly (and have many times since COVID) and I usher at a place that works exactly as I've described, so I don't know what to tell you.
ETA: I just pulled up my ticket for the concert I'm going to tomorrow, and my name isn't on it at all. I guess if you have your original email you can try to verify it that way, but usually the emails say "this email is not your ticket" or something like that so I wouldn't assume most people have that with them, especially since the advice is always to download your ticket to your phone in advance because wifi can get jammed when there are thousands of people trying to use it.
No - the tickets don't work that way. They don't have a name associated with them on the actual ticket and someone could easily walk into a venue and then send the ticket to someone waiting outside and that person use the ticket again if they didn't have this safeguard. I don't know how often it happens, but it happens enough that they have built the ticketing system this way.
I don't know how it works at small venues, but those who use Ticketmaster and are mobile only (which is typical for a show at a large music venue like this) do work this way.
Now whether this would be a big concern during a true emergency - maybe not. But I am still surprised that they let people leave and come back. I am sure you have not left a concert at a large venue in recent years and come back - it is never allowed.
this is merely a ticketing system coding challenge. ‘Live’ v ‘inactive’is a value assigned by thier systemafter the ticket has been scanned. For something thi large, do they really not have the ability to reset all the tickets in the situation where something has gone wrong? Because they should get on that. There are so many reasons systems can have errors. Not building in the ability to reset is short sighted and on them.
I agree, there must be some way for them to validate the tickets again in this situation or in the case of some random error.
Or that they would just believe it’s you when you, dripping wet, show them a ticket in an app or email that is connected to your name and have a matching ID during a storm.
this is merely a ticketing system coding challenge. ‘Live’ v ‘inactive’is a value assigned by thier systemafter the ticket has been scanned. For something thi large, do they really not have the ability to reset all the tickets in the situation where something has gone wrong? Because they should get on that. There are so many reasons systems can have errors. Not building in the ability to reset is short sighted and on them.
Wouldn't this also pose a logistics problem in that people also stayed in the venue? So you have live tickets that wouldn't be rescanned creating a false count of patrons.
they sent people to the cars once. So clearly they weren’t as concerned about ticketing/duplicate entry as wildrice. But they should still have the capability to reset for other situations where mass reentry might be needed. A solution would be to ask any patrons in the building to exit and then restart the entry process.
Well, I haven’t since Covid for obvious reasons but I did in January 2020.
I’m looking at the Ticketmaster confirmation with the ticket now and it says “Hi MY NAME here is your ticket for XX concert”. Same for about a dozen other concert tickets in fall and summer 2019. And of course all of my other emails in the same account are addressed to me. The same name as on my ID.
It seems weird to think that wouldn’t be enough during a weather emergency.
Ok well, I go to events like this regularly (and have many times since COVID) and I usher at a place that works exactly as I've described, so I don't know what to tell you.
I’m not asking you to tell me anything, I know my own lived experiences. I’ve been to shows where you usher during Covid and my name is on those tickets too. I’ve stepped out for fresh air during intermissions during these Covid years. Other people around me were doing the same thing. Half the time they don’t even check the ticket again.
Maybe security is freakishly tight at like pop concerts? Because of a high percentage of kids attending or something? I don’t go to see those types of artists so I wouldn’t know. Maybe Swifties commit higher rates of fraud lol
Well, I haven’t since Covid for obvious reasons but I did in January 2020.
I’m looking at the Ticketmaster confirmation with the ticket now and it says “Hi MY NAME here is your ticket for XX concert”. Same for about a dozen other concert tickets in fall and summer 2019. And of course all of my other emails in the same account are addressed to me. The same name as on my ID.
It seems weird to think that wouldn’t be enough during a weather emergency.
What would you have if the tickets were sold, or you had purchased them in your name and sent someone else?
When someone has bought a ticket for me, I’d get an email that says “Hi MY NAME, BFF sent you a ticket; click here to claim it”. They’d get the same email if I bought them the tickets.
I can’t see why that wouldn’t be enough during a weather emergency.
Post by InBetweenDays on Jun 23, 2023 12:43:25 GMT -5
I've been to numerous Ticketmaster events over the past few years (mostly Kraken games, but also a handful of concerts) and my name is never associated with the tickets. I'm not sure how that would work with our Kraken tickets because we share 4 season tickets with another couple and who is going each game really varies. The tickets are all under one account, and account owner transfers them to whomever is going that night. So unless they updated the name each time they transferred them? But right now that isn't the case. There are no names associated with the tickets.
Ok well, I go to events like this regularly (and have many times since COVID) and I usher at a place that works exactly as I've described, so I don't know what to tell you.
I’m not asking you to tell me anything, I know my own lived experiences. I’ve been to shows where you usher during Covid and my name is on those tickets too. I’ve stepped out for fresh air during Covid. Other people around me were doing the same thing. Half the time they don’t even check the ticket again.
Maybe security is freakishly tight at like pop concerts? Because of a high percentage of kids attending or something? I don’t go to see those types of artists so I wouldn’t know. Maybe Swifties commit higher rates of fraud lol
There is a smoking area that is blocked off, perhaps you have stepped out there? It is not allowed for people to leave and come back, for any reason. If you were allowed to do that, someone wasn't doing their job. We go over this before every single usher shift I've worked. There is also security to ensure people aren't walking in with weapons so they aren't going to allow people to just walk out and walk back in without any kind of scrutiny (especially in the location we are talking about!).
It works this way at every baseball game, every football game, and every concert at a large venue that I've been to in recent years, including before COVID. I guess it's possible that some nice security person might occasionally let someone run to their car to grab something and come back, but that is the exception, not the rule.
I’m not asking you to tell me anything, I know my own lived experiences. I’ve been to shows where you usher during Covid and my name is on those tickets too. I’ve stepped out for fresh air during Covid. Other people around me were doing the same thing. Half the time they don’t even check the ticket again.
Maybe security is freakishly tight at like pop concerts? Because of a high percentage of kids attending or something? I don’t go to see those types of artists so I wouldn’t know. Maybe Swifties commit higher rates of fraud lol
There is a smoking area that is blocked off, perhaps you have stepped out there? It is not allowed for people to leave and come back, for any reason. If you were allowed to do that, someone wasn't doing their job. We go over this before every single usher shift I've worked. There is also security to ensure people aren't walking in with weapons so they aren't going to allow people to just walk out and walk back in without any kind of scrutiny (especially in the location we are talking about!).
It works this way at every baseball game, every football game, and every concert at a large venue that I've been to in recent years, including before COVID. I guess it's possible that some nice security person might occasionally let someone run to their car to grab something and come back, but that is the exception, not the rule.
It wasn’t a smoking area or roped off in any way I could see. They weren’t letting random people in, we had tickets, were outside briefly (no one “left”) and the same person let us back in. I assumed they were allowing us to do this so we weren’t so jammed in the tiny lobby during a pandemic? This happened 3-4 times at various plays. No one acted like it was a big deal or they were doing us a favor.