McConnell and Feinstein health issues

[rubytue]

George Washington died at 67. Thomas Jefferson 83. He was 57 when he was became president. Ben Franklin died in his 80s. There were plenty of old people in that era. Obviously, these example are just names I can check easily. But, old people did exist.

[gretchenindisguise]

And about setting an arbitrary age - yes. That's ok. We set arbitrary ages for all sorts of things based on the law of averages. We can't let variation of humans keep us from making this decision.

[cap]

Jul 28, 2023 8:22:52 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Term limits are something I lean against because it will necessarily eliminate a lot of institutional knowledge. Look at Pelosi - she's stepped aside from leadership, but she's still sharp, and she's still AROUND - she just finally realized that it was time to pass to a new generation who could be a bit more in touch with the Dem electorate.

I've often thought that continuing to work until later in life keeps you sharp, using people at the top of the government as an example... though clearly not always. And keep in mind that in general these are all people who WANT to work vs. needing to work to pay their bills, and have access to quality medical care.

Anyway, yes, the voters need to not elect 86 year old senators, WTF California.

(Also, my state has the mandatory retirement age set for judges at 75. It used to be 70, but the GOP put something on the ballot a few years ago about "Setting a mandatory retirement age for judges at 75" and most people voted for it because they didn't know the mandatory age was 70 - and then the republicans were able to keep some of their judges around a few more years during a Democratic governor's term.)

A question about what I bolded - has anyone primaried Feinstein? If not, then I would probably still continue to vote for her in the general because I'm sure the R candidates have been awful. 

I support age limits, but not term limits. I think it would be best to set an age at which you can no longer run, and have it be based on the length of the term. So US Senator couldn't run after 69, and a US Representative couldn't run after 73.

[goldengirlz]

Jul 28, 2023 9:21:32 GMT -5 cap said:

Jul 28, 2023 8:22:52 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Term limits are something I lean against because it will necessarily eliminate a lot of institutional knowledge. Look at Pelosi - she's stepped aside from leadership, but she's still sharp, and she's still AROUND - she just finally realized that it was time to pass to a new generation who could be a bit more in touch with the Dem electorate.

I've often thought that continuing to work until later in life keeps you sharp, using people at the top of the government as an example... though clearly not always. And keep in mind that in general these are all people who WANT to work vs. needing to work to pay their bills, and have access to quality medical care.

Anyway, yes, the voters need to not elect 86 year old senators, WTF California.

(Also, my state has the mandatory retirement age set for judges at 75. It used to be 70, but the GOP put something on the ballot a few years ago about "Setting a mandatory retirement age for judges at 75" and most people voted for it because they didn't know the mandatory age was 70 - and then the republicans were able to keep some of their judges around a few more years during a Democratic governor's term.)

A question about what I bolded - has anyone primaried Feinstein? If not, then I would probably still continue to vote for her in the general because I'm sure the R candidates have been awful. 

I support age limits, but not term limits. I think it would be best to set an age at which you can no longer run, and have it be based on the length of the term. So US Senator couldn't run after 69, and a US Representative couldn't run after 73.

The issue isn’t about Republicans here because we have jungle primaries and two Ds can advance.

She ran against Kevin de Leon (a Democrat), and it was her closest election. But de Leon would not have been better; he was recorded making racist and homophobic comments, and it (rightfully) became a big scandal in LA. It all came out years after the election so I guess we dodged a bullet.

We can 100% do better here. We get another shot next year.

My sense is also that she went from being tolerated here to actively disliked over the past five years.

[goldengirlz]

Jul 27, 2023 19:48:40 GMT -5 nsl said:

We also can't overlook the fact that having mostly geriatric lawmakers means that very few people making big decisions about policy in this country have any idea what life is like for those of us who are starting careers/mid-career, having young families, dealing with the day-to-day life that is reality for a majority of Americans.

Not to mention having no idea how the internet works (data, privacy, social media, etc.)

[penguingrrl]

It’s definitely time for age limits, people should not be in high stress positions making decisions for several million people when they’re in their 80s. I am not as big a fan of term limits, but it would depend on how it was set. Institutional knowledge is critical there as with any field, as are relationships that are formed over decades. Most people need time in their career to develop and get stronger, no matter what career it is, and political jobs are also careers where spending some time being mentored and then building your knowledge base, relationships and confidence makes you better than you were.

But something needs to be done to prevent where things are right now.

[cap]

Jul 28, 2023 9:38:08 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jul 28, 2023 9:21:32 GMT -5 cap said:

A question about what I bolded - has anyone primaried Feinstein? If not, then I would probably still continue to vote for her in the general because I'm sure the R candidates have been awful. 

I support age limits, but not term limits. I think it would be best to set an age at which you can no longer run, and have it be based on the length of the term. So US Senator couldn't run after 69, and a US Representative couldn't run after 73.

The issue isn’t about Republicans here because we have jungle primaries and two Ds can advance.

She ran against Kevin de Leon (a Democrat), and it was her closest election. But de Leon would not have been better; he was recorded making racist and homophobic comments, and it (rightfully) became a big scandal in LA. It all came out years after the election so I guess we dodged a bullet.

We can 100% do better here. We get another shot next year.

My sense is also that she went from being tolerated here to actively disliked over the past five years.

Thanks for the info! I suppose I could have googled how CA elections work, though.

[sonrisa]

Jul 28, 2023 6:40:59 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Jul 27, 2023 20:03:18 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Life expectancy was low though not because your average person died around 35, but because lots and lots of people died as very young children.

Yeah, IIRC, if you managed to survive infancy/childhood, life expectancy then wasn't much different than it is now.

and child birth. I wouldn’t have seen this side of 34 in the 1700s.

[basilosaurus]

Yes people sometimes want to work. My grandpa retired at 76, for the 5th and final time, and he wasn't really involved in day-to-day by thn. But that doesn't mean we should be cool with people in their 80s runnning the country. Lots of jobs have mandatory retirement for safety reasons. Congress should, too.

[neverfstop]

I heard an idea a while back about semi-retirement and serving as a mentor role as a gentle glidepath out of a job for an older generation. It lets them be involved, share their knowledge, stay engaged, open up positions for younger people to move up, lets them keep earing a bit of money.

[basilosaurus]

Jul 28, 2023 12:17:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

I heard an idea a while back about semi-retirement and serving as a mentor role as a gentle glidepath out of a job for an older generation. It lets them be involved, share their knowledge, stay engaged, open up positions for younger people to move up, lets them keep earing a bit of money.

That's essentially what my grandpa did with careers 3 and 5. Figurehead type stuff, letting the young folks do the drudgery, offering guidance, wisdom from years of slogging it out. He didn't need the money. He just liked the engagement and challenge. Plus, he had grandkids he needed to spoil

[StrawberryBlondie]

Jul 28, 2023 12:57:22 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Jul 28, 2023 12:17:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

I heard an idea a while back about semi-retirement and serving as a mentor role as a gentle glidepath out of a job for an older generation. It lets them be involved, share their knowledge, stay engaged, open up positions for younger people to move up, lets them keep earing a bit of money.

That's essentially what my grandpa did with careers 3 and 5. Figurehead type stuff, letting the young folks do the drudgery, offering guidance, wisdom from years of slogging it out. He didn't need the money. He just liked the engagement and challenge. Plus, he had grandkids he needed to spoil

That's basically what my grandpa did. He was so GD bored with retirement. So of course, he went back to work rather than get a dog or something. 😂

[4speedy]

Jul 27, 2023 19:48:40 GMT -5 nsl said:

We also can't overlook the fact that having mostly geriatric lawmakers means that very few people making big decisions about policy in this country have any idea what life is like for those of us who are starting careers/mid-career, having young families, dealing with the day-to-day life that is reality for a majority of Americans.

My mom is 81 and is very bootstrappy because “she did it” when she was young.  She grew up in a working class family but her dad was a plant foreman for Ford, so relatively well paid, although he did work hard.   She is very much “I paid for my education already so I don’t see why I have to pay for anyone else’s.”  In the next breath, she’ll tell how her dad would hand her $300 in cash to pay for her tuition.  I tell her that today someone would have to hand her $40K in cash to pay her tuition at the same university, so not quite the same thing.  She demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understanding that the change in income disparity between income classes then and now means that she cannot possibly compare herself to young people starting out now who want to go to college, buy a house, have kids, etc.  The frustrating part is that she won’t even consider that it’s different nor will she even TRY to understand.  She’s very much “Well, I did all those things.  If other people want to have the things I had, they should work harder.”

[beetea]

Jul 27, 2023 22:07:05 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Onion had a very, very funny bit on McConnell today on Insta, but I'm not repeating it.

Go check it out.

OMG. 😭

[curbsideprophet]

NYT article on this topic

Reluctant to Retire, Leaders Raise a Tough Question: How Old Is Too Old?
Two troubling moments involving Senators Dianne Feinstein and Mitch McConnell thrust questions about aging in office out of Congress and into the national conversation.

www.nytimes.com/2023/07/29/us/politics/mcconnell-feinstein-biden-age.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[basilosaurus]

Jul 29, 2023 10:45:33 GMT -5 beetea said:

Jul 27, 2023 22:07:05 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Onion had a very, very funny bit on McConnell today on Insta, but I'm not repeating it.

Go check it out.

OMG. 😭

Amazing

[fumbalina]

I think we need age limits. Term limits are a little more complex, but I do support reform in campaign spending to allow those who are not already wealthy to run for office.

If someone is 80, they have no business working anywhere, if they still want to be busy then they could volunteer, but step aside for those who are younger to actually run things.

[klee23]

Jul 29, 2023 16:05:15 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

I think we need age limits. Term limits are a little more complex, but I do support reform in campaign spending to allow those who are not already wealthy to run for office.

If someone is 80, they have no business working anywhere, if they still want to be busy then they could volunteer, but step aside for those who are younger to actually run things.

I know this wasn't the intent of the post as a whole but I would hazard a guess that the majority of the work force that works over the age of 80 are unfortunately doing it out of necessity, not a power trip (i.e.- politicians, people who were successfully able to retire but can't give it up).

[fumbalina]

Jul 29, 2023 16:35:36 GMT -5 klee23 said:

Jul 29, 2023 16:05:15 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

I think we need age limits. Term limits are a little more complex, but I do support reform in campaign spending to allow those who are not already wealthy to run for office.

If someone is 80, they have no business working anywhere, if they still want to be busy then they could volunteer, but step aside for those who are younger to actually run things.

I know this wasn't the intent of the post as a whole but I would hazard a guess that the majority of the work force that works over the age of 80 are unfortunately doing it out of necessity, not a power trip (i.e.- politicians, people who were successfully able to retire but can't give it up).

It does not change my perspective. I don't think that people of that age should need to work, but I do understand the realities of our awful economy. However, it does not change the fact that someone who is 80 should be able to work when they want as a volunteer, not because they need an income. 

[basilosaurus]

Jul 29, 2023 16:51:35 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

Jul 29, 2023 16:35:36 GMT -5 klee23 said:

I know this wasn't the intent of the post as a whole but I would hazard a guess that the majority of the work force that works over the age of 80 are unfortunately doing it out of necessity, not a power trip (i.e.- politicians, people who were successfully able to retire but can't give it up).

It does not change my perspective. I don't think that people of that age should need to work, but I do understand the realities of our awful economy. However, it does not change the fact that someone who is 80 should be able to work when they want as a volunteer, not because they need an income. 

I have some elderly family members who chose to work as Walmart greeters. They could use the minimal extra income that didn't threaten benefits, hours were not burdensome, and most importantly gave them interaction with others when they otherwise would have had a pretty lonely solitary life.

Loathe as I am to admit it, Walmart did a good thing with that role. I think such a dual role of semi retired semi volunteer but also somewhat compensated could easily be created in more avenues.

I saw a docu in UK about a program that put young school kids in elderly care homes for party of their school days and how much it benefitted both groups.

My gramma for decades recorded children's books on tape for loc services for blind children (which later expanded the scope to others needing audiobooks, but that was loc decision, not the org she volunteered with). Not to say older women are good only as dottering readers to children, but she would have absolutely adored that as a volunteer (didn't need and wouldn't have accepted the money) but there was no mechanism. And for others who'd like/need to supplement their fixed income, these types of partnerships should be easily available.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 29, 2023 16:05:15 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

I think we need age limits. Term limits are a little more complex, but I do support reform in campaign spending to allow those who are not already wealthy to run for office.

If someone is 80, they have no business working anywhere, if they still want to be busy then they could volunteer, but step aside for those who are younger to actually run things.

My aunt is an 81 year old retired nurse who works a receptionist at a nursing home. She retired several times (4 or 5) but was falling into a depression feeling useless and money was tighter than she preferred. Going back to work and feeling useful was critical to her mental health. Why should she be precluded from working due to age? She also volunteers but it’s not the same.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 29, 2023 18:48:57 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 29, 2023 16:05:15 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

I think we need age limits. Term limits are a little more complex, but I do support reform in campaign spending to allow those who are not already wealthy to run for office.

If someone is 80, they have no business working anywhere, if they still want to be busy then they could volunteer, but step aside for those who are younger to actually run things.

My aunt is an 81 year old retired nurse who works a receptionist at a nursing home. She retired several times (4 or 5) but was falling into a depression feeling useless and money was tighter than she preferred. Going back to work and feeling useful was critical to her mental health. Why should she be precluded from working due to age? She also volunteers but it’s not the same. I agree that high power jobs should have an age limit, but not all jobs should.

[fumbalina]

Jul 29, 2023 18:48:57 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 29, 2023 16:05:15 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

I think we need age limits. Term limits are a little more complex, but I do support reform in campaign spending to allow those who are not already wealthy to run for office.

If someone is 80, they have no business working anywhere, if they still want to be busy then they could volunteer, but step aside for those who are younger to actually run things.

My aunt is an 81 year old retired nurse who works a receptionist at a nursing home. She retired several times (4 or 5) but was falling into a depression feeling useless and money was tighter than she preferred. Going back to work and feeling useful was critical to her mental health. Why should she be precluded from working due to age? She also volunteers but it’s not the same.

This is because we have been conditioned to believe we are useless if we aren't bringing in income. Having the elderly actually retire instead of dying on the job would help normalize some healthier boundaries.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 29, 2023 18:55:13 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

Jul 29, 2023 18:48:57 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

My aunt is an 81 year old retired nurse who works a receptionist at a nursing home. She retired several times (4 or 5) but was falling into a depression feeling useless and money was tighter than she preferred. Going back to work and feeling useful was critical to her mental health. Why should she be precluded from working due to age? She also volunteers but it’s not the same.

This is because we have been conditioned to believe we are useless if we aren't bringing in income. Having the elderly actually retire instead of dying on the job would help normalize some healthier boundaries.

I mean, to a degree yes. But also, she was really nervous about her retirement money stretching for an undetermined amount of time. Hell, H and I save but also assume retirement will never be a realistic thing because how do you ever have enough wealth for the idea of no income to not induce panic?

[gretchenindisguise]

Jul 29, 2023 18:57:34 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 29, 2023 18:55:13 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

This is because we have been conditioned to believe we are useless if we aren't bringing in income. Having the elderly actually retire instead of dying on the job would help normalize some healthier boundaries.

I mean, to a degree yes. But also, she was really nervous about her retirement money stretching for an undetermined amount of time. Hell, H and I save but also assume retirement will never be a realistic thing because how do you ever have enough wealth for the idea of no income to not induce panic?

I think a lot of her point is that as society, we should take care of the elderly to such a degree that the panic of stretching retirement money for an undetermined amount of time.

But that’s not a thing currently.

[minzy]

The thing I don’t get is the ego and hubris to continue on indefinitely in an extraordinarily stressful position at 75-85 years of age. I know a number of people in that range, from my dad/stepmother and in-laws and other relatives, to fellow volunteers, to community members in my area. I would advise exactly none of them shoulder the mental and physical load of doing some of the most stressful work on the planet. I am not saying there is not a place for their wisdom - of course there is huge value in institutional knowledge, in an advisory role perhaps. Instead, there should be more of a focus on building the bench, the reserves, the future leaders. Maybe it’s happening in politics more than I can see or I’m not paying enough attention - I hope. Meanwhile, I, as a mentally acute 40-something, am actively trying to rewrite the bylaws and “build the bench” in the teeny nonprofit I lead, where a couple of our octogenarian board members are finally(!) making the call to lean out of leadership. One had done very little the last few years (shouldering me with more of the work) and the other is unfortunately starting to make mistakes with math. I was taught with our nonprofit training that the primary goal must be “to protect the organization” and that no one individual should be making it their own show. Which is why I myself am stepping down after my current term ends! If I can understand that, why can’t others who are running bigger things get it, too?!

[nsl]

Relevant to this discussion: the current median age for members of Congress is 57-58, and for the Senate it's 65. This is the oldest our lawmakers have been in the history of this country. More commentary and analysis here (gift link): wapo.st/3QkSSiI

[Jalapeñomel]

When your entire existence is wrapped up in your career, it’s really hard to let go.

[momof2ms]

I think it’s a symptom of the fact that there’s no room for civil discourse anymore. There’s no way to implement something custom on a person by person basis, without assuming some sort of bias against that political party.

I think I’m more for term limits than I am for age limits. Most old people become board members or committee members to be able to pass on their institutional knowledge to the current leadership. Perhaps something like that could be implemented in these states so that younger people could fill the seats while old people still made their wisdom relevant.

[picksthemusic]

Yeah, as someone who works with a lot of elderly folks in my day-to-day work, and do the 6CIT a lot (a quick cognitive exam given with Medicare wellness physicals), I see so much discrepancy in people's cognition and ability to remember things. Some 65 year-olds are just as sharp as they were at 40, and others are in serious decline.

I feel that term limits might be more 'fair' and takes the ageism out of it overall. But then I look at someone like Patty Murray, and now she's Pro Tempore and has a ton of power in the Senate. I like that she has power because I trust her judgment and like what she's trying to accomplish. But she's not young, so... Not sure what the answer is here.