McConnell and Feinstein health issues

[goldengirlz]

lilac05 I’m not sure I understand what you’re referring to when you say we need to find ways to give someone a “path out with dignity.”

He’s been given the basic human dignity to choose his own path — and he’s choosing this one.

He’s choosing to stay in the public eye, as a public servant. As a result, his mental faculties ARE a matter of public interest, given the weight of the job (this is true in a lot of professions.)

Feinstein and RBG chose their paths too. Where does dignity play into this? What am I missing? Sometimes it’s just a sad fact of life that someone can’t (or shouldn’t) continue in their job. While no one wants to admit that they’re sick or frail, they were all given the chance to control their own narrative about when to retire. Surely any 80 year old — and ESPECIALLY one with decades in their position — understands the risk they’re taking by choosing to keep their seat.

[wanderingback]

Aug 31, 2023 22:03:04 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Aug 31, 2023 20:27:09 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

So I read a story and it’s not his personal doctor but the Capitol physician. It also said this physician is the physician for the Supreme Court justices and he got that appointment under Obama.

I have no clue what his directives are but I’m guessing he assessed him as objectively as possible and is saying there was no ongoing acute issue.

The report I read just said he was “cleared to work.” Which…really could mean anything. Since there are zero actual physical or mental requirements, I would think he would have to be doing little more than breathing to be technically “cleared to work” by the doctor. Breathing, BP not skyrocketing, no contagious illness…stamp of approval! And obviously, he’s not lying that a concussion can have long term effects that can look similar to what he’s had. Whether or not that’s what’s *actually* going on here is potentially a different story, but he’s not wrong to make that statement. Now, if they offered more than that, I have questions.

Also, no one really cares…but even though I stand behind what I said earlier about wanting all people to have a path out with dignity, I don’t judge others for seeing things very differently. No side eyes from me, even if my post was what started it. He certainly has done plenty to deserve every shred of the hate and disgust shared in this thread. I just cannot go to the mental space that allows me to find happiness in anyone’s decline in health, regardless of who it is. It’s not because I’m better than anyone, it’s just that focusing on that negativity spirals my mental health into a deep abyss really quickly. To fight that, I have to look for the humanity deep inside everyone. It’s the only way I can function in this crazy world. Others have to express their outrage to function in the same space…and that’s OK, too. When he dies, I will not be sad. I will be thankful that he no longer has the power to continue to do terrible things in our country. And that will be worth celebrating.

It just seems odd to think that he deserves dignity when no one is forcing him to stay in his position. It’s his choice to not step down. It’s not like he’s at end stage dementia and literally has no clue about anything. And it’s not like he’s at home and the paparazzi are peeping through his windows, so he’s choosing to continue on in the public with people speculating about his health.

[sonrisa]

Aug 31, 2023 22:37:24 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

lilac05 I’m not sure I understand what you’re referring to when you say we need to find ways to give someone a “path out with dignity.”

...

Feinstein and RBG chose their paths too. Why is retirement somehow “undignified?”

That's the problem: Washington has created a culture of "work until you drop" as if being in the Senate or Supreme Court was like being Pope (unless you don't get reelected). I think lilac's point about changing that culture *for everyone* would make a huge difference. We need stepping aside to be normalized again rather than some idea of irreplaceability so many current politicians hold. If retiring were normalized, RBG wouldn't have died on the Court.

Feinstein specifically should know better since her local crew have both done better. Boxer stopped running for reelection in 2016 and Pelosi has stepped down as speaker. 

We'd like it to be normalized and considered dignified so *all* of them would plan to retire and do so in a timely way. 

For me, this is not about Toxic Turtle himself, but more about the others. Toxic Turtle needs to go - but his health complications or age are about 83rd and 84th on the list of reasons for that. 

[goldengirlz]

Aug 31, 2023 22:57:27 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Aug 31, 2023 22:37:24 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

lilac05 I’m not sure I understand what you’re referring to when you say we need to find ways to give someone a “path out with dignity.”

...

Feinstein and RBG chose their paths too. Why is retirement somehow “undignified?”

That's the problem: Washington has created a culture of "work until you drop" as if being in the Senate or Supreme Court was like being Pope (unless you don't get reelected). I think lilac's point about changing that culture *for everyone* would make a huge difference. We need stepping aside to be normalized again rather than some idea of irreplaceability so many current politicians hold. If retiring were normalized, RBG wouldn't have died on the Court.

Feinstein specifically should know better since her local crew have both done better. Boxer stopped running for reelection in 2016 and Pelosi has stepped down as speaker. 

We'd like it to be normalized and considered dignified so *all* of them would plan to retire and do so in a timely way. 

For me, this is not about Toxic Turtle himself, but more about the others. Toxic Turtle needs to go - but his health complications or age are about 83rd and 84th on the list of reasons for that. 

But it’s a culture of their own making. Usually when we talk about something being “normalized,” we’re talking about people with less power needing to see something modeled by people with more power (the CEO taking paternity leave to pave the way for other employees, for example). Politicians have the power to control their own destinies — they’re not staying out of fear or external pressure.

Instead, everyone is so goddamn power hungry and concerned about their own legacies that we can’t expect them to change anything voluntarily. The only option, as someone said above, is term limits.

[basilosaurus]

Aug 31, 2023 12:20:17 GMT -5 orval said:

Aug 31, 2023 12:16:38 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

So instead of Fetterman, they should’ve voted for Dr. Oz? Because that was the choice. And a write in or third party candidate would’ve been a vote for Dr. Oz.

yes

So people should vote for a con man quack whose positions are diametrically opposed to their own? Gtfo with that.

[lilac05]

wanderingback, I totally understand, and I don’t think I was super clear. I want people to be able to LEAVE in a dignified manner, not stay in a position and maintain all respect/dignity. Like I wish that there was a way for them to be able to say, “X has happened, and I recognize that I am no longer able to serve” and receive some respect for knowing when to bow out. In all other professions, we have “retirement” which is a reason for celebration. In politics, in the middle of a term, we only have “resign/resignation” which is the same term we use when people are leaving because they majorly screwed up. It feels good to say you’re retiring. Resigning doesn’t have the same feel.

I don’t believe that McConnell would actually take that if it was available, but I wish that it was. I want it to be available to all elected positions.

And goldengirlz, I agree that his cognitive status is reason for public concern and discussion. It’s why I mentioned that I’d love to have something like an annual cognitive screener for all in office. I don’t feel good about the memes and jokes myself, but I also accept that when people choose to put themselves in the national spotlight, and especially when they do so many hurtful things to people, they’re opening themselves to that, too. Just because I don’t feel good about it myself doesn’t mean I think poorly of people who see things differently.

It’s hard for anyone to retire. But in most other professions, you know who’s taking over for you and you can move on to your next chapter. Someone in party leadership knows that when they leave, their whole party loses a lot of power…and might even lose a seat. The system itself makes it highly unappealing to step back…add in the ego required to even RUN for office, and I think we’re just going to see more and more of this. Lots of things desperately need to change.


ETA: sonrisa, yes, thank you. I’m speaking in general terms, not just this one specific person. And I think in this case, normalizing is a good word. McConnell is a leader of his party. He’s a leader of our country with tremendous power. Being willing to identify when it’s time to step back & being brave enough to admit it and act on it is a great example for our entire country, all the way down.

And really…I think a lot of blame here also falls on both parties. They’re failing to bring up a bunch of younger leaders to replace these people in office. If those in office don’t believe there’s someone amazing ready, willing, and able to step in, they’re even LESS likely to leave.

[goldengirlz]

Aug 31, 2023 23:23:57 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

The system itself makes it highly unappealing to step back…add in the ego required to even RUN for office, and I think we’re just going to see more and more of this. Lots of things desperately need to change.

I’m not sure I agree that the reason people work themselves (literally) to death is because the system requires it. When you run for office after a certain age, you understand that you’re taking a risk that you could die or become incapacitated before your term is up, and that could be worse than not running at all. Was Feinstein — from the dark blue state of California — doing anything heroic for the Dems by running for re-election at 84/85? Was RBG doing anything heroic for women by not stepping down while the Dems controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency under Obama? You could maybe argue that McConnell would be giving up his seniority to someone more junior, but everyone needs to be thinking about succession planning eventually! No one lives forever!

ETA: The only person who gets a pass is Biden because he might be our best shot right now against Trump. Plus, the POTUS has a very clear line of succession. But his age is definitely a wildcard and potential risk for the Dems if he similarly has an abrupt health issue.

[sonrisa]

Aug 31, 2023 23:03:22 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Aug 31, 2023 22:57:27 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

That's the problem: Washington has created a culture of "work until you drop" as if being in the Senate or Supreme Court was like being Pope (unless you don't get reelected). I think lilac's point about changing that culture *for everyone* would make a huge difference. We need stepping aside to be normalized again rather than some idea of irreplaceability so many current politicians hold. If retiring were normalized, RBG wouldn't have died on the Court.

Feinstein specifically should know better since her local crew have both done better. Boxer stopped running for reelection in 2016 and Pelosi has stepped down as speaker. 

We'd like it to be normalized and considered dignified so *all* of them would plan to retire and do so in a timely way. 

For me, this is not about Toxic Turtle himself, but more about the others. Toxic Turtle needs to go - but his health complications or age are about 83rd and 84th on the list of reasons for that. 

But it’s a culture of their own making. Usually when we talk about something being “normalized,” we’re talking about people with less power needing to see something modeled by people with more power (the CEO taking paternity leave to pave the way for other employees, for example). Politicians have the power to control their own destinies — they’re not staying out of fear or external pressure.

Instead, everyone is so goddamn power hungry and concerned about their own legacies that we can’t expect them to change anything voluntarily. The only option, as someone said above, is term limits.

I don't disagree at all - especially with the bolded. It's one part power hungry, and one part egotism that makes them think they are completely unique, amazing and irreplaceable. They need to change this themselves, or we need objective criteria that forces change.

However, I stand by my statement that this is low on the list of *my* problems with McConnell. Frankly, a McConnell who fails to do his job is a McConnell I prefer.

[lilac05]

Aug 31, 2023 23:37:09 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Aug 31, 2023 23:23:57 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

The system itself makes it highly unappealing to step back…add in the ego required to even RUN for office, and I think we’re just going to see more and more of this. Lots of things desperately need to change.

I’m not sure I agree that the reason people work themselves (literally) to death is because the system requires it. When you run for office after a certain age, you understand that you’re taking a risk that you could die or become incapacitated before your term is up, and that could be worse than not running at all. Was Feinstein — from the dark blue state of California — doing anything heroic for the Dems by running for re-election at 84/85? Was RBG doing anything heroic for women by not stepping down while the Dems controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency under Obama? You could maybe argue that McConnell would be giving up his seniority to someone more junior, but everyone needs to be thinking about succession planning eventually! No one lives forever!

ETA: The only person who maybe gets a pass is Biden because he might be our best shot right now against Trump. And at least the line of succession is clear so there’s no risk to the party. His age is definitely a wildcard and potential risk for the Dems though if he similarly has an abrupt health issue.

The system doesn’t require it, I said the system makes it unappealing. I don’t understand why Feinstein ran again, and wish she wouldn’t have. I wish RBG would have stepped down under Obama. This isn’t a single party issue…it’s everyone. Power + Egos + Not building up successors = Hot Mess. I don’t always love the idea of term limits because it could limit some great people from doing great things, but with the equation I just wrote, it seems like that may be the only real, actionable solution.

[goldengirlz]

Pelosi is running again.

www.politico.com/news/2023/09/08/pelosi-will-seek-reelection-00114722

[wanderingback]

Sept 8, 2023 18:11:57 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Pelosi is running again.

www.politico.com/news/2023/09/08/pelosi-will-seek-reelection-00114722

Ugh. Come on!!

[bronxgirl]

Sept 8, 2023 18:24:59 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Sept 8, 2023 18:11:57 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Pelosi is running again.

www.politico.com/news/2023/09/08/pelosi-will-seek-reelection-00114722

Ugh. Come on!!

That was pretty much my reaction, too. I'm glad she stayed in leadership when she did, because her expertise and skill were needed.  I admired her grace when she stepped down from leadership and assumed she would retire at the end of her term. truly commendable.  but then she went and did this, come on! It's time to step aside, FFS.

[lilac05]

Sept 8, 2023 19:31:35 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Sept 8, 2023 18:24:59 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Ugh. Come on!!

That was pretty much my reaction, too. I'm glad she stayed in leadership when she did, because her expertise and skill were needed.  I admired her grace when she stepped down from leadership and assumed she would retire at the end of her term. truly commendable.  but then she went and did this, come on! It's time to step aside, FFS.

Agreed. One of the signs of a successful leader is building up those who can fill your shoes when you leave, and knowing when to leave. I’m disappointed that so many leaders have not done a good job of building up those below them to take the reigns and keep things moving forward. You might win the short game, but you’ll lose the long game.

[bronxgirl]

As an additional thought, on a more macro level this is such a good example of the dangers of having your entire identity tied to your profession. I'm a group therapist and have worked with many depressed patients who recently retired and don't have any sense of identity now that they're not in their career anymore, specifically people who were in leadership, received a lot of respect, adulation, etc and don't know who they are and how to function without being in that role. Feinstein, McConnell, Pelosi, et al have been in congressional leadership most of their adult lives (or at least recent adult lives) and it's hard to give that up and transition to something different. And the rest of the country suffers as a result. They all need good therapists and some fun hobbies so they can step aside and let the next generation take over.

[sonrisa]

Sept 8, 2023 18:11:57 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Pelosi is running again.

www.politico.com/news/2023/09/08/pelosi-will-seek-reelection-00114722

ffs. She got the first step right (stepping back) and now needs to take the second step down.

A follow on problem for all this: instead of someone coming up in a timely way with planning, it all comes down to a mad scramble after incapacitation or death. Just another way it erodes the institution.

[lilac05]

Sept 9, 2023 12:02:11 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As an additional thought, on a more macro level this is such a good example of the dangers of having your entire identity tied to your profession. I'm a group therapist and have worked with many depressed patients who recently retired and don't have any sense of identity now that they're not in their career anymore, specifically people who were in leadership, received a lot of respect, adulation, etc and don't know who they are and how to function without being in that role. Feinstein, McConnell, Pelosi, et al have been in congressional leadership most of their adult lives (or at least recent adult lives) and it's hard to give that up and transition to something different. And the rest of the country suffers as a result. They all need good therapists and some fun hobbies so they can step aside and let the next generation take over.

It would be nice if attending weekly therapy sessions was a part of all politicians’ jobs! We might be in a very different place as a country if that was the case!

[bronxgirl]

Sept 9, 2023 18:25:16 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Sept 9, 2023 12:02:11 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As an additional thought, on a more macro level this is such a good example of the dangers of having your entire identity tied to your profession. I'm a group therapist and have worked with many depressed patients who recently retired and don't have any sense of identity now that they're not in their career anymore, specifically people who were in leadership, received a lot of respect, adulation, etc and don't know who they are and how to function without being in that role. Feinstein, McConnell, Pelosi, et al have been in congressional leadership most of their adult lives (or at least recent adult lives) and it's hard to give that up and transition to something different. And the rest of the country suffers as a result. They all need good therapists and some fun hobbies so they can step aside and let the next generation take over.

It would be nice if attending weekly therapy sessions was a part of all politicians’ jobs! We might be in a very different place as a country if that was the case!

I'd hate to be Ted Cruz's therapist.

[sakoro]

Sept 9, 2023 18:25:16 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Sept 9, 2023 12:02:11 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As an additional thought, on a more macro level this is such a good example of the dangers of having your entire identity tied to your profession. I'm a group therapist and have worked with many depressed patients who recently retired and don't have any sense of identity now that they're not in their career anymore, specifically people who were in leadership, received a lot of respect, adulation, etc and don't know who they are and how to function without being in that role. Feinstein, McConnell, Pelosi, et al have been in congressional leadership most of their adult lives (or at least recent adult lives) and it's hard to give that up and transition to something different. And the rest of the country suffers as a result. They all need good therapists and some fun hobbies so they can step aside and let the next generation take over.

It would be nice if attending weekly therapy sessions was a part of all politicians’ jobs! We might be in a very different place as a country if that was the case!

Haha, that will never happen. A lot of people take powerful, all-consuming jobs to avoid going to therapy.

[shauni27]

Sept 9, 2023 19:01:38 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Sept 9, 2023 18:25:16 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

It would be nice if attending weekly therapy sessions was a part of all politicians’ jobs! We might be in a very different place as a country if that was the case!

I'd hate to be Ted Cruz's therapist.

legit shudder.

[DotAndBuzz]

Sept 9, 2023 19:01:38 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Sept 9, 2023 18:25:16 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

It would be nice if attending weekly therapy sessions was a part of all politicians’ jobs! We might be in a very different place as a country if that was the case!

I'd hate to be Ted Cruz's therapist.

That person would have to have a world class poker face.

[sonrisa]

Sept 12, 2023 10:11:17 GMT -5 DotAndBuzz said:

Sept 9, 2023 19:01:38 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

I'd hate to be Ted Cruz's therapist.

That person would have to have a world class poker face.

They say to therapists: "Imagine your worst client. What would they need to pay to make it worth your time to treat them? Now set your rates accordingly."

Ted Cruz's therapist must change a literal small fortune.

[cattledogkisses]

This happened to come up as a suggested article for me and seemed pertinent.  It shows how the average age of Congress members has increased over time.

www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/09/08/the-old-have-come-to-dominate-american-politics

[bronxgirl]

Mitt Romney announced that he won't run for re-election due to his age.

"Utah Republican Sen. Mitt Romney announced Wednesday that he will not run for reelection to the Senate and called for a “new generation of leaders” as he criticized both President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump."

www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/politics/mitt-romney-not-running-reelection/index.html

I appreciate the example he is setting, but wish it wasn't a moderate Republican leaving. Who knows who Utah will elect in his place.

[cattledogkisses]

It's not often these days that I find something nice to say about a Republican, but I appreciate the example that Mitt is setting. More politicians, of both parties, should take note.

[mrsslocombe]

Sept 13, 2023 13:35:29 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Mitt Romney announced that he won't run for re-election due to his age.

"Utah Republican Sen. Mitt Romney announced Wednesday that he will not run for reelection to the Senate and called for a “new generation of leaders” as he criticized both President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump."

www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/politics/mitt-romney-not-running-reelection/index.html

I appreciate the example he is setting, but wish it wasn't a moderate Republican leaving. Who knows who Utah will elect in his place.

I'm a cynical bitch, so I assume he just see the MAGA wind blowing and knows he can't compete with crazy. He gets to retire and look noble and rake in a bunch of corporate speaking gigs. And knows a Republican will take his place.

I mean good for him or whatever but he deserves half a stale cookie of praise.  

[jeaniebueller]

Aug 31, 2023 23:23:57 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

And really…I think a lot of blame here also falls on both parties. They’re failing to bring up a bunch of younger leaders to replace these people in office. If those in office don’t believe there’s someone amazing ready, willing, and able to step in, they’re even LESS likely to leave.

Joking/not joking, but Gen X (my generation) definitely fulfilled their destiny of being labeled slackers. 

[chickadee77]

Sept 14, 2023 10:54:07 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Aug 31, 2023 23:23:57 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

And really…I think a lot of blame here also falls on both parties. They’re failing to bring up a bunch of younger leaders to replace these people in office. If those in office don’t believe there’s someone amazing ready, willing, and able to step in, they’re even LESS likely to leave.

Joking/not joking, but Gen X (my generation) definitely fulfilled their destiny of being labeled slackers. 

I dunno. Yes and no. It's difficult to take the reins when the generation in front of you won't let go until the eulogy is over. Add to that that life expectancies are higher, especially if you have the money for health care, which most boomers do.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just saying what I've seen happen in a lot of friends' lives, who have successful, multi-generational family businesses, but the older generation is well into their 70s and still not giving over leadership. I think that translates to politics, too, in a lot of cases.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 14, 2023 13:25:21 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Sept 14, 2023 10:54:07 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Joking/not joking, but Gen X (my generation) definitely fulfilled their destiny of being labeled slackers. 

I dunno. Yes and no. It's difficult to take the reins when the generation in front of you won't let go until the eulogy is over. Add to that that life expectancies are higher, especially if you have the money for health care, which most boomers do.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just saying what I've seen happen in a lot of friends' lives, who have successful, multi-generational family businesses, but the older generation is well into their 70s and still not giving over leadership. I think that translates to politics, too, in a lot of cases.

I think HBO made a very popular show about this exact problem 😀

[chickadee77]

Sept 14, 2023 17:19:00 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Sept 14, 2023 13:25:21 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I dunno. Yes and no. It's difficult to take the reins when the generation in front of you won't let go until the eulogy is over. Add to that that life expectancies are higher, especially if you have the money for health care, which most boomers do.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just saying what I've seen happen in a lot of friends' lives, who have successful, multi-generational family businesses, but the older generation is well into their 70s and still not giving over leadership. I think that translates to politics, too, in a lot of cases.

I think HBO made a very popular show about this exact problem 😀

Lol did they? Sorry, I don't watch - I kind of live under a rock when it comes to TV.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 14, 2023 17:50:07 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Sept 14, 2023 17:19:00 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I think HBO made a very popular show about this exact problem 😀

Lol did they? Sorry, I don't watch - I kind of live under a rock when it comes to TV.

I was referring to Succession! Great show — highly recommend!