When Don’t Say Gay meets the College Board

[MixedBerryJam]

I don’t think I’m gifting this article right so if someone else wants to jump in with another link 

www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/08/03/florida-bans-ap-psychology-class/

But the upshot is that Florida won’t allow gender identity or sexual orientation education, and AP Psych won’t allow excluding it.  Wtf do floridians think is going to happen to this generation coming up? Are they aware of the brain drain they’re setting themselves up for? What’s next? Anyone with resources and aspirations will leave and never look back.  What is Florida going to look like in 12 years? Or five? I really don’t understand this long game. 

======
The state of Florida “effectively banned” a second Advanced Placement course as noncompliant with its newly enacted standards, this time barring hundreds of districts from offering a psychology class as long as it includes discussion of gender and sexual orientation, officials said Thursday.
Earlier this year, the state barred schools from offering a newly created AP African American Studies course. Now Florida is blocking districts from offering a class that they have taught for three decades and to thousands of students each year.
Florida officials told school superintendents Thursday that they may offer the class but only if material concerning sexual orientation and gender identity is removed, said William J. “Bill” Montford III, chief executive at the Florida Association of District School Superintendents, who was on the call. He said districts were encouraged to teach a modified version of the class.
The College Board, which runs the AP program, responded that the class will not be compliant with college requirements if these topics are removed and that schools that do so cannot call the class “Advanced Placement.” …

[VillainV]

I honestly think they are counting on stuff like this causing democrats to move away so Florida can go solidly red instead of a being a swing state.

[MixedBerryJam]

Aug 3, 2023 18:47:46 GMT -5 VillainV said:

I honestly think they are counting on stuff like this causing democrats to move away so Florida can go solidly red instead of a being a swing state.

I get that part, and agree.  But I cannot understand why.  They’re saying out loud, here are broad swaths of knowledge that you can’t get here and we don’t need or want the best educated population. Why? I’ll never understand.

[erbear]

I’m pretty sure the brain drain and creating an uneducated population is exactly the plan.

[chickadee77]

I worked in higher ed in FL, and have colleagues still there. They are not allowed to mention diversity or inclusion, even in passing, in email, etc. All mentions must be documented and sent to higher-ups.

So. Sorry/not sorry, we fled FL for many reasons, and this is one. I don't have the fight in me, especially with young daughters and transgender issues in the mix. I know I *should* want to fight, but I won't risk my family or our lives for it, and that's honestly how severe I think it is/will be.

[erbear]

chickadee77, do not blame you one bit. I would not stay in Florida with girls and I am not even navigating gender identity in the mix ❤️

[Gato]

Aug 3, 2023 19:56:15 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I worked in higher ed in FL, and have colleagues still there. They are not allowed to mention diversity or inclusion, even in passing, in email, etc. All mentions must be documented and sent to higher-ups.

So. Sorry/not sorry, we fled FL for many reasons, and this is one. I don't have the fight in me, especially with young daughters and transgender issues in the mix. I know I *should* want to fight, but I won't risk my family or our lives for it, and that's honestly how severe I think it is/will be.

Nah, you’re good. If Trump (god forbid) gets re-elected, my family and transgender child will be leaving the country pronto. This country will be saying it doesn’t care about my kid, and I’m not waiting around to find out what happens next. We’ll take H’s tech experience somewhere where my kid can be safe. I’m sorry for all the kids who can’t move, but when your family is being directly threatened and you’re being accused of child abuse, it’s time to go elsewhere.

[Gato]

I still don’t see what the end game is here for Republicans in Florida. Going forward, they will not be able to attract top talent to their university system, and over the years it will slip down the rankings in prestige, losing billions of dollars in federal grant money. Probably just like large corporations, they’re just trying to maximize short-term gains, while they’re in power, and don’t care at all about the state’s long-term welfare.

[chickadee77]

Aug 3, 2023 20:37:29 GMT -5 Gato said:

Aug 3, 2023 19:56:15 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I worked in higher ed in FL, and have colleagues still there. They are not allowed to mention diversity or inclusion, even in passing, in email, etc. All mentions must be documented and sent to higher-ups.

So. Sorry/not sorry, we fled FL for many reasons, and this is one. I don't have the fight in me, especially with young daughters and transgender issues in the mix. I know I *should* want to fight, but I won't risk my family or our lives for it, and that's honestly how severe I think it is/will be.

Nah, you’re good. If Trump (god forbid) gets re-elected, my family and transgender child will be leaving the country pronto. This country will be saying it doesn’t care about my kid, and I’m not waiting around to find out what happens next. We’ll take H’s tech experience somewhere where my kid can be safe. I’m sorry for all the kids who can’t move, but when your family is being directly threatened and you’re being accused of child abuse, it’s time to go elsewhere.

*poof*

[erbear]

Aug 3, 2023 20:45:34 GMT -5 Gato said:

I still don’t see what the end game is here for Republicans in Florida. Going forward, they will not be able to attract top talent to their university system, and over the years it will slip down the rankings in prestige, losing billions of dollars in federal grant money. Probably just like large corporations, they’re just trying to maximize short-term gains, while they’re in power, and don’t care at all about the state’s long-term welfare.

They. Do. Not. Care.

[sonrisa]

Side note: How does AP Psych cover LGBTQ issues? Because I'm side eyeing the idea that being LGBTQ is a psych issue (what is this? Oscar Wilde's England?). (Does AP Psych also violate Florida's "we don't acknowledge racism" rules as well? Is this about microagressions, the shitty way other people act and marginalization?)

I don't trust high schools to teach gender dysphoria with nuance and point out the inherent issues with the diagnosis/ requiring the diagnosis for medical treatment, etc.

There is too much shitty history between psych and LGBTQ people for me not to be cautious. 

[AAM2012]

Aug 3, 2023 22:38:25 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Side note: How does AP Psych cover LGBTQ issues? Because I'm side eyeing the idea that being LGBTQ is a psych issue (what is this? Oscar Wilde's England?). (Does AP Psych also violate Florida's "we don't acknowledge racism" rules as well? Is this about microagressions, the shitty way other people act and marginalization?)

I don't trust high schools to teach gender dysphoria with nuance and point out the inherent issues with the diagnosis/ requiring the diagnosis for medical treatment, etc.

There is too much shitty history between psych and LGBTQ people for me not to be cautious. 

I think it’s along the lines of society influences…I.e “men don’t cry”, “boys play with xyz while girls play with dolls..”, “expected behavior, clothes, hair, etc.”

And I hope that it would provide a basic understanding of the difference between gender and sex, etc.

I tried to find details on the actual curriculum in question but can’t find anything specific.

—-

The AP course asks students to “describe how sex and gender influence socialization and other aspects of development.” This element of the framework is not new: gender and sexual orientation have been part of AP Psychology since the course launched 30 years ago.


newsroom.collegeboard.org/statement-ap-psychology-and-florida

[mrsukyankee]

As a past teacher of AP Psych (around 10 years ago), I can say that it doesn't go into deep detail but does talk about the fluidity of gender, the difference between sex and gender and about socialisation and expectations of gender (dolls versus trucks, etc). Some teachers probably go into more detail depending on the class composition and their own knowledge.

[imimahoney]

In my AP teachers group many southern teachers are scared this will also make AP US and AP GoPo illegal.

Most districts in Florida will be turning to IB programs to keep the students "college ready" hoping parents won't notice or give a fuck.

[formerlyak]

Aug 4, 2023 5:23:27 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

In my AP teachers group many southern teachers are scared this will also make AP US and AP GoPo illegal.

Most districts in Florida will be turning to IB programs to keep the students "college ready" hoping parents won't notice or give a fuck.

I was just going to ask about APUSH. DS just finished that one and I’m sure there was stuff about slavery since it covered the civil war. And you can’t talk about slavery without talking about race obviously.

And where does it end? What about AP Lit? AP Spanish I took years ago, but there were lessons about the culture and the arts in various Spanish speaking countries in that class. Will that be banned?

This is all wacko.

[redheadbaker]

Similarly, a gay Louisiana doctor (a pediatric heart surgeon specialist, one of just THREE in the whole state) is leaving due to anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation in that state. And the comments on local coverage are basically, "Good riddance." Do they not care about what this will do to children needing care for heart conditions?!?

[gretchenindisguise]

I think it ends with a dumber population they can control. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[Jalapeñomel]

Aug 4, 2023 8:47:46 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Similarly, a gay Louisiana doctor (a pediatric heart surgeon specialist, one of just THREE in the whole state) is leaving due to anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation in that state. And the comments on local coverage are basically, "Good riddance." Do they not care about what this will do to children needing care for heart conditions?!?

No, they don’t.

[Michelle]

Aug 4, 2023 9:44:10 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Aug 4, 2023 8:47:46 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Similarly, a gay Louisiana doctor (a pediatric heart surgeon specialist, one of just THREE in the whole state) is leaving due to anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation in that state. And the comments on local coverage are basically, "Good riddance." Do they not care about what this will do to children needing care for heart conditions?!?

No, they don’t.

I was going to reference this same case, and I'm sure they won't care until their own baby or grandbaby dies because there wasn't a surgeon to get to them. But then it will be "God's plan" instead of considered something completely preventable.




As for A/P psych (sonrisa), way back when i was in HS in the early 90s, we talked about DSM categories. It was DSM III back then and then DSM IV when i was in college. Part of the class discussion was the evolution of understanding of various human conditions, including the fact that in early Psychology, sexual orientation and gender dysphyoria were considered diagnosable psychological "conditions" but that they were removed as science on the topic improved and expanding understanding. 

I think the course content is pro-acceptance/inclusion and that is why it is banned in FL.

[imimahoney]

Aug 4, 2023 8:27:31 GMT -5 formerlyak said:

Aug 4, 2023 5:23:27 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

In my AP teachers group many southern teachers are scared this will also make AP US and AP GoPo illegal.

Most districts in Florida will be turning to IB programs to keep the students "college ready" hoping parents won't notice or give a fuck.

I was just going to ask about APUSH. DS just finished that one and I’m sure there was stuff about slavery since it covered the civil war. And you can’t talk about slavery without talking about race obviously.

And where does it end? What about AP Lit? AP Spanish I took years ago, but there were lessons about the culture and the arts in various Spanish speaking countries in that class. Will that be banned?

This is all wacko.

APUSH is one of the most popular classes so that would have a much bigger impact BUT it's also one of the hardest to pass.

Last yr only 48% of the test takers earned a passing grade. If they wanted Florida could definitely argue that more students would receive college credit through IB programs than through the AP program.

It really sucks right now to be an AP teacher.

[formerlyak]

Aug 4, 2023 10:01:40 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Aug 4, 2023 8:27:31 GMT -5 formerlyak said:

I was just going to ask about APUSH. DS just finished that one and I’m sure there was stuff about slavery since it covered the civil war. And you can’t talk about slavery without talking about race obviously.

And where does it end? What about AP Lit? AP Spanish I took years ago, but there were lessons about the culture and the arts in various Spanish speaking countries in that class. Will that be banned?

This is all wacko.

APUSH is one of the most popular classes so that would have a much bigger impact BUT it's also one of the hardest to pass.

Last yr only 48% of the test takers earned a passing grade. If they wanted Florida could definitely argue that more students would receive college credit through IB programs than through the AP program.

It really sucks right now to be an AP teacher.

But don't the rules about what can be discussed in class extend to college as well? Or are headed that way? So if APUSH was banned due to discussing race in the context of slavery, would that also impact a US History class at the college level or in an IB program?

Not being argumentative. I am honestly asking, because I don't know enough about the reach of these laws in Florida.

[Michelle]

Aug 4, 2023 10:15:02 GMT -5 formerlyak said:

Aug 4, 2023 10:01:40 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

APUSH is one of the most popular classes so that would have a much bigger impact BUT it's also one of the hardest to pass.

Last yr only 48% of the test takers earned a passing grade. If they wanted Florida could definitely argue that more students would receive college credit through IB programs than through the AP program.

It really sucks right now to be an AP teacher.

But don't the rules about what can be discussed in class extend to college as well? Or are headed that way? So if APUSH was banned due to discussing race in the context of slavery, would that also impact a US History class at the college level or in an IB program?

Not being argumentative. I am honestly asking, because I don't know enough about the reach of these laws in Florida.

I, too, was wondering when IB programs will next be under attack. They already have been in TX.

"We don't want no world-view by them there globalists."

[mrsukyankee]

Transitioning to IB is NOT easy and is very different from AP so not sure how that will work out. You need very different training to become an IB teacher.

[Jalapeñomel]

Aug 4, 2023 10:01:40 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Aug 4, 2023 8:27:31 GMT -5 formerlyak said:

I was just going to ask about APUSH. DS just finished that one and I’m sure there was stuff about slavery since it covered the civil war. And you can’t talk about slavery without talking about race obviously.

And where does it end? What about AP Lit? AP Spanish I took years ago, but there were lessons about the culture and the arts in various Spanish speaking countries in that class. Will that be banned?

This is all wacko.

APUSH is one of the most popular classes so that would have a much bigger impact BUT it's also one of the hardest to pass.

Last yr only 48% of the test takers earned a passing grade. If they wanted Florida could definitely argue that more students would receive college credit through IB programs than through the AP program.

It really sucks right now to be an AP teacher.

TBF one of the reasons it’s percentage is low is because it has a large enrollment compared to many other AP classes.

[imimahoney]

Aug 4, 2023 10:57:45 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Aug 4, 2023 10:01:40 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

APUSH is one of the most popular classes so that would have a much bigger impact BUT it's also one of the hardest to pass.

Last yr only 48% of the test takers earned a passing grade. If they wanted Florida could definitely argue that more students would receive college credit through IB programs than through the AP program.

It really sucks right now to be an AP teacher.

TBF one of the reasons it’s percentage is low is because it has a large enrollment compared to many other AP classes.

Very true but also our curriculum is ridiculous and the skills required for the test are mostly unattainable for many of the students.

Numbers increased greatly for AP language and lit and their passing percentage is higher than ours.

[imimahoney]

Aug 4, 2023 10:20:50 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

Transitioning to IB is NOT easy and is very different from AP so not sure how that will work out. You need very different training to become an IB teacher.

Except many states (like Florida) don't really keep up with the requirements. IB programs want state money and will get it if they play by Florida's rules.

[imimahoney]

Aug 4, 2023 10:15:02 GMT -5 formerlyak said:

Aug 4, 2023 10:01:40 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

APUSH is one of the most popular classes so that would have a much bigger impact BUT it's also one of the hardest to pass.

Last yr only 48% of the test takers earned a passing grade. If they wanted Florida could definitely argue that more students would receive college credit through IB programs than through the AP program.

It really sucks right now to be an AP teacher.

But don't the rules about what can be discussed in class extend to college as well? Or are headed that way? So if APUSH was banned due to discussing race in the context of slavery, would that also impact a US History class at the college level or in an IB program?

Not being argumentative. I am honestly asking, because I don't know enough about the reach of these laws in Florida.

From what I've seen IB programs vary widely and there is no set required content or skills just that they receive a college level class taught by a qualified instructor.

The APUSH requirements are set in stone (until the next revision 🤣) and if we don't teach it along with the skills kiddos will have zero chance at passing.

Lots of AP teachers in my group talk about how much easier IB is at their schools and how the AP numbers are already decreasing because of the rigor required.

[MixedBerryJam]

Aug 4, 2023 11:33:26 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Aug 4, 2023 10:15:02 GMT -5 formerlyak said:

But don't the rules about what can be discussed in class extend to college as well? Or are headed that way? So if APUSH was banned due to discussing race in the context of slavery, would that also impact a US History class at the college level or in an IB program?

Not being argumentative. I am honestly asking, because I don't know enough about the reach of these laws in Florida.

From what I've seen IB programs vary widely and there is no set required content or skills just that they receive a college level class taught by a qualified instructor.

The APUSH requirements are set in stone (until the next revision 🤣) and if we don't teach it along with the skills kiddos will have zero chance at passing.

Lots of AP teachers in my group talk about how much easier IB is at their schools and how the AP numbers are already decreasing because of the rigor required.

I’m not familiar with the IB program but if they’re supposed to be college level courses will colleges be willing to accept the credits if courses don’t include the very basics? Eventually their reputations will be on the line themselves if they start graduating kids that are missing foundational concepts. Will colleges have to start offering remedial coursework to fill in those gaps? (Asking rhetorically.) I just don’t understand the concept that it’s bad to learn things.

[irishbride2]

As an independent school, we can still offer the class. But now our students who go to Florida schools for college won't be able to use AP Pysch towards Bright Futures or towards college credit. It's just so stupid.

I teach AP Econ. I won't be shocked if they try to ban the discussion of Communism as an economic concept. Its just out of control.

[irishbride2]

Oh and to answer what AP Psych covers in regards to LGBTQ, it covers twin studies. It's focused on brain make up and talks about how scientists used twin studies to study the brain. It does NOT frame LGBTQ as a mental health disorder.