Post by nuggetbrain on Aug 29, 2023 12:59:46 GMT -5
Your boss is fixing to get fired when they find out what he's doing, and probably his wife too.
Our company required folks to come back 3 days a week last year and everyone outside of specific groups like mine who have to come in for their actual job to be done is like "lol no" so now they're going to start tracking badge swipes.
But I think asking your team to let you know either what day they'll be in, or if they'll be working from home on whatever assigned day y'all picked is reasonable.
Your boss is a fucking idiot and I would deny, deny, deny that you knew anything about the shenanigans his wife is doing. Say nothing to anyone. Unless he cuts that ish out entirely, he is 100% going to get fired (and his wife too) when they find out, which they will sooner or later. That is so much worse than just not coming in when you've been told to do so.
I also would not push the in office days, I would tell the team you were the only one in last Tuesday, and please let you know if they won't be in. That is nice and vague.
If you people are only required to be in 1-2 days a week, it wouldn't occur to me to care that they weren't there on a random Tuesday. Are they supposed to come in the same day every week or something? Have you asked them to tell you what day(s) they plan to come in? If the answers to these are no, I don't think there is anything for you to address.
This is the part I’m confused about as well.
Like OP doesn’t actually know they weren’t planning to come in on, say, Wednesday or Thursday, right? (I’m in today and it’s pretty dead. Wednesdays and Thursdays, meanwhile, are usually hopping.)
I’d only raise the issue with my direct reports if their absence was egregious. Like if they’ve been averaging 1-2x a week in the office and generally making an effort, I’d look the other way if they miss a particular week. I just … don’t want to be that kind of micromanager.
In my office, we usually drop it in Slack if we plan to be in. Seems like a light way to keep everyone informed without being too heavy-handed about it.
I'd email the team and remind them that Tuesday is an office day, and if they planned to work from home to send you a head's up. There's not an office job that I have ever worked that I haven't had to notify my boss if I'm not going to be somewhere where I'm expected. I don't think it's unreasonable to remind them to communicate.
This is what I would do as well. We used to all come in on Tuesdays so we could do meetings, etc. and my direct reports had to tell me if they would not be in.
We now all come in on different days, partially due to desk availability and we get a lot of mail. They all have assigned days, but know if something comes up or they want to switch to a different day, they just need to tell me. It's so I know where they are because there are times I need something done from the office.
Re: swipe cards - my job definitely checks. If you are not in the office enough, they take away your parking privileges. You can still park in visitor parking, but not the regular garage.
It sounds to me like you only want to push it because you're annoyed you're the only one actually going in. I think that reminding people that you expect them in on Tuesdays is only going to irritate them, unless there is an actual benefit to them being there. I'm pretty sure everyone knows the policy, and it's on each person to follow it. It's good that *you* are leading by example, but people are going to be real sour if you push them to come in when the higher ups won't.
She's their boss. It's her literal job to make sure they come in when they're supposed to be there. She's not a coworker. She's not an office friend. They are her direct reports.
This is weird.
I get where you are coming from. I have been on both sides, and she mentioned needing to keep these people. Nothing felt worse as an employee than being told to come in just for the sake of showing my face. As a manager I have very little I can do to boost morale (I work at a huge company with lots of red tape), so this would be something I personally would let go. But yes, if she needs them in the office then it is absolutely within her power to enforce the 1-2 days/week.
If you people are only required to be in 1-2 days a week, it wouldn't occur to me to care that they weren't there on a random Tuesday. Are they supposed to come in the same day every week or something? Have you asked them to tell you what day(s) they plan to come in? If the answers to these are no, I don't think there is anything for you to address.
This is the part I’m confused about as well.
Like OP doesn’t actually know they weren’t planning to come in on, say, Wednesday or Thursday, right? (I’m in today and it’s pretty dead. Wednesdays and Thursdays, meanwhile, are usually hopping.)
I’d only raise the issue with my direct reports if their absence was egregious. Like if they’ve been averaging 1-2x a week in the office and generally making an effort, I’d look the other way if they miss a particular week. I just … don’t want to be that kind of micromanager.
In my office, we usually drop it in Slack if we plan to be in. Seems like a light way to keep everyone informed without being too heavy-handed about it.
A couple of comments further down, Tuesday was their agreed day to come in.
As someone said before, if upper management is having his badge swiped by his wife, that means he knows that badge swipes are being tracked. It's not rocket science. With all of this, as a manager, I'd be damned sure my people are coming in to cover their butts as well. Because if upper management is going to the trouble of lying, that means people will probably be canned anyway, regardless of if they get their feelings hurt by being asked to show their faces the required amounts of time the company is asking.
I'm on the side of not going in just to go in, because it's stupid, but also if I'm worried I might not be able to keep staff I'd want to make sure they're still eligible to be employed and following the rules.
She's their boss. It's her literal job to make sure they come in when they're supposed to be there. She's not a coworker. She's not an office friend. They are her direct reports.
This is weird.
I get where you are coming from. I have been on both sides, and she mentioned needing to keep these people. Nothing felt worse as an employee than being told to come in just for the sake of showing my face. As a manager I have very little I can do to boost morale (I work at a huge company with lots of red tape), so this would be something I personally would let go. But yes, if she needs them in the office then it is absolutely within her power to enforce the 1-2 days/week.
I guess I don't get the difference between "you need to come in just for the sake of showing your face" and "needing them in the office". To me, it doesn't matter what the reason is. This is the company's decision regardless of whether the jobs can be done from home. Of course it sucks when you know you can get all your work completed at home and not need to go into the office, but the company put a return to work policy in place for 1-2 days per week (if I am remembering correctly). Her team agreed their day in office would be Tuesdays. She showed up on a Tuesday and no one else was there, with no communication on why.
If you people are only required to be in 1-2 days a week, it wouldn't occur to me to care that they weren't there on a random Tuesday. Are they supposed to come in the same day every week or something? Have you asked them to tell you what day(s) they plan to come in? If the answers to these are no, I don't think there is anything for you to address.
This is the part I’m confused about as well.
Like OP doesn’t actually know they weren’t planning to come in on, say, Wednesday or Thursday, right? (I’m in today and it’s pretty dead. Wednesdays and Thursdays, meanwhile, are usually hopping.)
I’d only raise the issue with my direct reports if their absence was egregious. Like if they’ve been averaging 1-2x a week in the office and generally making an effort, I’d look the other way if they miss a particular week. I just … don’t want to be that kind of micromanager.
In my office, we usually drop it in Slack if we plan to be in. Seems like a light way to keep everyone informed without being too heavy-handed about it.
As someone said before, if upper management is having his badge swiped by his wife, that means he knows that badge swipes are being tracked. It's not rocket science. With all of this, as a manager, I'd be damned sure my people are coming in to cover their butts as well. Because if upper management is going to the trouble of lying, that means people will probably be canned anyway, regardless of if they get their feelings hurt by being asked to show their faces the required amounts of time the company is asking.
I'm on the side of not going in just to go in, because it's stupid, but also if I'm worried I might not be able to keep staff I'd want to make sure they're still eligible to be employed and following the rules.
Taking my employee hat off/looking through the manager lens, I'd also be worried as the manager that I can lose my job if I'm not following the rules like you said before. If the employees are supposed to be in office, and there's an agreed upon day to go in, then I'm responsible for explaining why they didn't go in when someone finally starts checking badges, or the day a high level manager finally goes in and it's a ghost town when a lot of people were scheduled to go in. I think OP could fight not to have to bring the team in so much, and show why it's not needed, but their hands are tied until the policy changes.
Also as an employee I've tried like hell to push back on WFH days when I had the opportunity, even what days I WFH if I have to go in the office, but I was told the boss "needs" me there on a certain day, so I was there on those days. Technically OP could write up an employee if they're not abiding by the rules, which is why I've recommended emailing the team the in-office guidelines and enforcing them next month with a fresh start since it seems OP wasn't really enforcing working in-person until this week.
I'm also team OP and think OP is getting a bad deal that they're sitting in an empty office, and now risk losing employees because they're following the rules of making them come back in-person.
If you people are only required to be in 1-2 days a week, it wouldn't occur to me to care that they weren't there on a random Tuesday. Are they supposed to come in the same day every week or something? Have you asked them to tell you what day(s) they plan to come in? If the answers to these are no, I don't think there is anything for you to address.
This is the part I’m confused about as well.
Like OP doesn’t actually know they weren’t planning to come in on, say, Wednesday or Thursday, right? (I’m in today and it’s pretty dead. Wednesdays and Thursdays, meanwhile, are usually hopping.)
I’d only raise the issue with my direct reports if their absence was egregious. Like if they’ve been averaging 1-2x a week in the office and generally making an effort, I’d look the other way if they miss a particular week. I just … don’t want to be that kind of micromanager.
In my office, we usually drop it in Slack if we plan to be in. Seems like a light way to keep everyone informed without being too heavy-handed about it.
Why wouldn't OP know what is happening on the other days? This is a small team of 3 direct reports, plus OP. I guess it's possible OP wouldn't talk to them on any of the other days, but I am pretty sure it's going to be crystal clear that they are WFH the other days.
I’d be a little worried about any blow back if it came out he was faking the swipe and you knew. Like is he pretending in conversation that he’s there and seeing you/others in person? He's not vocally saying he's there when he isn't (such as when we're on a group call - it never comes up since those we're on calls w/ are located in different states - we aren't on camera ever, so he doesn't even bring it up). Or is the wife just swiping and leaving it at that? From what he's told me, the wife takes the badge w/ her and swipes on one of her trips elsewhere in the building that requires badge access. Our access is for certain floors of the building that our company resides in. It's not at all limited to specific areas of those floors.
I don’t know, I’ve only worked in person places (as has my husband) where knowing who was on site was pretty important for safety and/or security reasons and people would get fired for this. I wouldn’t want to be in the middle of that at all.
He must think there is a chance someone is checking the logs or he wouldn’t bother IMO.
I’d also worry about there being some issue down the line if you don’t get your direct reports to come in as required. Maybe they will now that school is back and “summer” is over and it will solve itself? Yes, I think the combination of a team check-in meeting where this can be one of the topics (among our regular agenda items) and we're getting back in the groove after vacations and "back to school" can get us back on track.
ETA I can’t follow if they are all supposed to be there Tuesdays or if they can come in any day. The company requirement is 1-2 days/week, with Tuesday being the desired day that we're all in together. When the guidance came out to us from leadership last year, we decided together as a group which day we would come in together. They (the 3 that report to me) decided on Tuesday. The 2nd day is Thursday - again, also decided by the team as a group.
I don't think it's necessary that we are in together every week on Tuesday. Our jobs are very cyclical and I see value in being together during the peak busy weeks when we have multiple deadlines and we are truly working together collectively on a task. Also during audits I think there in some value in being together given the nature of the testing we're involved in.
At the same time it seems hypocritical of me to bring up our in-office days as a reminder, when my boss is not leading by example. But I also took to heart what a PP said that it shouldn't matter what my boss does, and that these are my direct reports.
Talking this out has been really helpful, and I plan to: 1) Not say anything about the boss/wife badge crap (it's going to come out on its own one way or another - but next time he talks about it I will tell him it's shady - we have a good enough relationship that I would feel completely comfortable saying that), and 2) have a regroup/team meeting to prepare for quarter-end as we usually do and take that opportunity to bring up the Tuesdays (or whatever day they prefer) in the office.
Like OP doesn’t actually know they weren’t planning to come in on, say, Wednesday or Thursday, right? (I’m in today and it’s pretty dead. Wednesdays and Thursdays, meanwhile, are usually hopping.)
I’d only raise the issue with my direct reports if their absence was egregious. Like if they’ve been averaging 1-2x a week in the office and generally making an effort, I’d look the other way if they miss a particular week. I just … don’t want to be that kind of micromanager.
In my office, we usually drop it in Slack if we plan to be in. Seems like a light way to keep everyone informed without being too heavy-handed about it.
Why wouldn't OP know what is happening on the other days? This is a small team of 3 direct reports, plus OP. I guess it's possible OP wouldn't talk to them on any of the other days, but I am pretty sure it's going to be crystal clear that they are WFH the other days.
I’m just picturing my office/team. I couldn’t tell you who’s in or who’s not. My manager does not know where I’m working unless we have a 1:1. Same with my own direct reports. We mostly communicate on Slack. Even on video calls, most people put up virtual backgrounds.
This probably doesn’t apply to OP, but we also hot desk. I’ve had days where I’ve been in the office with colleagues but we were on different floors and never knew unless someone put it in Slack.
Why wouldn't OP know what is happening on the other days? This is a small team of 3 direct reports, plus OP. I guess it's possible OP wouldn't talk to them on any of the other days, but I am pretty sure it's going to be crystal clear that they are WFH the other days.
I’m just picturing my office/team. I couldn’t tell you who’s in or who’s not. My manager does not know where I’m working unless we have a 1:1. We mostly communicate on Slack. Even on video calls, people put up virtual backgrounds.
This probably doesn’t apply to OP, but we also hot desk. I’ve had days where I’m in the office with colleagues but we were on different floors and never knew unless someone put it in Slack.
This is the stupidest part of all this. Being in the office and still communicating digitally (which is what happens in my office too since our company is global and we have employees all over).
ETA: I mean in the general sense. OP's team actually work together so I can see the benefit of being in person together.
I’m just picturing my office/team. I couldn’t tell you who’s in or who’s not. My manager does not know where I’m working unless we have a 1:1. We mostly communicate on Slack. Even on video calls, people put up virtual backgrounds.
This probably doesn’t apply to OP, but we also hot desk. I’ve had days where I’m in the office with colleagues but we were on different floors and never knew unless someone put it in Slack.
This is the stupidest part of all this. Being in the office and still communicating digitally (which is what happens in my office too since our company is global and we have employees all over).
ETA: I mean in the general sense. OP's team actually work together so I can see the benefit of being in person together.
We don’t have a requirement to come in though. I mostly come for a change of scenery, or when I have an important meeting, or for happy hour. No one makes us be here so we can be as present as we want.
In our office, we have "neighborhoods" of office space dedicated to certain departments and we use an app that allows us to reserve our desk. Reservations are limited to that neighborhood. There are some flex spaces in other areas that are not for a specific department, but in my neighborhood there are 10 desks so we've never had an issue with reserving space. It would be odd for any of us to reserve the flex space. If someone needs privacy, there are numerous conf rooms of varying sizes that are available. It's a large building with more than ample space; frankly, it's probably too much space but we're locked in a lease for the next 5+ yrs.
I talk to my team several times each day for one reason or another, so it would be unusual for me not to know where they're working that day.
Post by litskispeciality on Aug 29, 2023 14:23:57 GMT -5
OP, is it possible to talk to your boss about in-office expectations before re-aligning your team? A quarter change seems like a great time to say to the higher level boss "hey, I'm realigning my team's in-office days and goals for Q3, just confirming we're all coming in X days a week?" or something that implies here's what you're going to make them do. That way it also calls out big boss for not being there...without actually saying that they're not there. Not saying talk up to the boss, just clarifying a policy, but also hopefully get a pass that someone else said you don't need to be there unless you the manager feel there's in-person collaboration required.
I would not address this. If I was on your team and you did bring it to the higher ups attention and I was forced to the office more I'd be super super annoyed.
I would NEVER bring this up to someone above me - I hope that's not the message that came through on my OP. I was coming more from the place of, how do I handle the mixed messages. Do I suggest to my team that we try to make an effort to come in 1 day/week to stay below the radar, or do I just let it go and deal with it in the event it's actually brought up to me by someone above me.
I would bring it up in person, not email. I would say something like this:
”He guys/team, I know this is our slow time and it’s kind of tough to drag ourselves into the office at least once a week, but I noticed that lately there are weeks when a some team members don’t make it in at all. Right now, upper management is not looking too closely at who is here and when. My concern is that if we abuse the privilege, our ability to work from home will disappear entirely. I appreciate that everyone does a good job and the work is getting done, but I need everyone to make sure they are coming in at least once a week. Hopefully, this will allow us to keep the wfh perk indefinitely.
I would 100% address it with your ethics office or hr. This is a security concern and is 1,00000% against our companies policy and would be grounds for termination (husband and wife).
Not sure if you’re company is as strict on security but either way I would report it.
Our company is tracking and reports out to who is not complying with the current guidelines.
OP - is the badge used to enter the building or can anyone enter?
Why wouldn't OP know what is happening on the other days? This is a small team of 3 direct reports, plus OP. I guess it's possible OP wouldn't talk to them on any of the other days, but I am pretty sure it's going to be crystal clear that they are WFH the other days.
I’m just picturing my office/team. I couldn’t tell you who’s in or who’s not. My manager does not know where I’m working unless we have a 1:1. Same with my own direct reports. We mostly communicate on Slack. Even on video calls, most people put up virtual backgrounds.
This probably doesn’t apply to OP, but we also hot desk. I’ve had days where I’ve been in the office with colleagues but we were on different floors and never knew unless someone put it in Slack.
Of course, I am picturing my teams as well. I guess I pictured OP similar to my set up, with smaller teams that talk/have meetings multiple times per day that make it very obvious where someone is working from each day.
So, in summer 2021, we had to start coming back in and eventually it was supposed to be 5 days over a 10 day period. So 2 days one week, 3 the next. And we would come in to sit at our desks and attend Zoom meetings. As a manager, I told my team to not worry about that 3rd day. I knew that a lot of people weren't really coming in AND we were in a building that pretty much no one came to, so - I just didn't care. But my one employee, I came to realize, wasn't coming in on the days I wasn't there too. On one hand I didn't care, but on the other, I felt she wasn't being honest. She had one foot out the door, though, so I didn't pursue it. And once she was transferred to another team, she quit!
And then our university had record number retirements that aug/sept, so when Omicron hit and we pretty much all went back to WFH - they haven't forced us back in.
From what I've read of your concern - as management isn't going by their own rules, I don't know that I'd push it. BUT as far as your team and communication goes, I'd have a conversation about when it IS important fo ryour team to all be together. If it's slow and it doesn't REALLY matter if you're all together or not, I would probably back down on the required days in, BUT with the clear expectation when certain functions come down the pike (like audits), you will be expecting people in. Becasue you really do have reason to want people together. IT's not just "but it's the rule!".
On the badge swipe - I actually have access to our badge swipe database. I don't know how upper management uses it, but I occasionally check to see what upper management are coming in and who is still primarily working from home - mainly to get a sense if there is any sign of a change coming where I"m going to have to go in more!
It sounds to me like you only want to push it because you're annoyed you're the only one actually going in. I think that reminding people that you expect them in on Tuesdays is only going to irritate them, unless there is an actual benefit to them being there. I'm pretty sure everyone knows the policy, and it's on each person to follow it. It's good that *you* are leading by example, but people are going to be real sour if you push them to come in when the higher ups won't.
She's their boss. It's her literal job to make sure they come in when they're supposed to be there. She's not a coworker. She's not an office friend. They are her direct reports.
This is weird.
Based on her descriptions, I feel like the bigger risk is hurting morale and/or giving these difficult/impossible-to-replace people the push to find another job.
OP - is the badge used to enter the building or can anyone enter?
You can access as far as the front lobby of the building w/o using a badge, but to access any of the wings and floors (either through stairs or elevators) you need to use your badge.
I’m just picturing my office/team. I couldn’t tell you who’s in or who’s not. My manager does not know where I’m working unless we have a 1:1. Same with my own direct reports. We mostly communicate on Slack. Even on video calls, most people put up virtual backgrounds.
This probably doesn’t apply to OP, but we also hot desk. I’ve had days where I’ve been in the office with colleagues but we were on different floors and never knew unless someone put it in Slack.
Of course, I am picturing my teams as well. I guess I pictured OP similar to my set up, with smaller teams that talk/have meetings multiple times per day that make it very obvious where someone is working from each day.
OP - is the badge used to enter the building or can anyone enter?
You can access as far as the front lobby of the building w/o using a badge, but to access any of the wings and floors (either through stairs or elevators) you need to use your badge.
Yeah I would report and my guess is that it’s against your company policy.
She's their boss. It's her literal job to make sure they come in when they're supposed to be there. She's not a coworker. She's not an office friend. They are her direct reports.
This is weird.
Based on her descriptions, I feel like the bigger risk is hurting morale and/or giving these difficult/impossible-to-replace people the push to find another job.
So OP is just supposed to let it go that her team agreed/is supposed to be in the office on Tuesdays because they all agreed to be and aren't showing up because the higher ups aren't doing it?? And saying something is bad because it would hurt morale? Yes, people are free to dislike the policy and find another job if they choose, but overlooking it just because you are afraid they will leave if they tell you they don't like the policy is crazy. You shouldn't be afraid to reinforce the policy that is set in place. The employees are essentially doing whatever they please (right now) by not following the policy and they will continue to do so if no one says anything. And won't get reprimanded/let go. I guess they have the best of both worlds.
Based on her descriptions, I feel like the bigger risk is hurting morale and/or giving these difficult/impossible-to-replace people the push to find another job.
So OP is just supposed to let it go that her team agreed/is supposed to be in the office on Tuesdays because they all agreed to be and aren't showing up because the higher ups aren't doing it?? And saying something is bad because it would hurt morale? Yes, people are free to dislike the policy and find another job if they choose, but overlooking it just because you are afraid they will leave if they tell you they don't like the policy is crazy. You shouldn't be afraid to reinforce the policy that is set in place. The employees are essentially doing whatever they please (right now) by not following the policy and they will continue to do so if no one says anything. And won't get reprimanded/let go. I guess they have the best of both worlds.
I mean, they have the leverage here. I can tell you that I worked and socialize with many niche people and have heard many times that if they are forced to go in for "no reason" they will quit. FWIW, I and everyone else did go in when asked/needed but such requests were always justified with more than "that's policy". And I did quit (for personal reasons) and they haven't been able to replace me.
I do think if OP truly feels there is danger they will lose WFH privileges (or worse) if they don't come in, she should definitely mention that when talking to the employees. That's the only argument I've seen that would sway me.
I wouldn’t report my boss on the badge thing but wouldn’t want any evidence that I knew about it - because he’s definitely doing something wrong.
I also wouldn’t personally care about whether my team was there or not, but would want to make sure I was doing my job as a manager and asking them to let me know if they wouldn’t be in on an agreed upon day.
My firm recently started requiring badges to get in as a security measure they said, but I know from my friends in management that they’re now tracking badge swipes and the time of the swipe (wanting people to work ‘normal office hours’ on their days in the office). Knowing it’s being tracked makes me want to swipe in more regularly - so I’ve contemplated like working from my office for an hour on some WFH days if I happen to be nearby, in case that data is used as a metric for anything. But would never lie about being there/have someone else swipe my badge. I have a dedicated office that I really like and in case in the future badge swipe data is used for who gets to keep their office - or something similar - I would like it to be clear that I’m there a decent amount (we have 2 required days, 3 encouraged).
So OP is just supposed to let it go that her team agreed/is supposed to be in the office on Tuesdays because they all agreed to be and aren't showing up because the higher ups aren't doing it?? And saying something is bad because it would hurt morale? Yes, people are free to dislike the policy and find another job if they choose, but overlooking it just because you are afraid they will leave if they tell you they don't like the policy is crazy. You shouldn't be afraid to reinforce the policy that is set in place. The employees are essentially doing whatever they please (right now) by not following the policy and they will continue to do so if no one says anything. And won't get reprimanded/let go. I guess they have the best of both worlds.
I mean, they have the leverage here. I can tell you that I worked and socialize with many niche people and have heard many times that if they are forced to go in for "no reason" they will quit. FWIW, I and everyone else did go in when asked/needed but such requests were always justified with more than "that's policy". And I did quit (for personal reasons) and they haven't been able to replace me.
I do think if OP truly feels there is danger they will lose WFH privileges (or worse) if they don't come in, she should definitely mention that when talking to the employees. That's the only argument I've seen that would sway me.
Just to wear the management hat and play devil's advocate, I think this is very industry dependent right now. There are some industries really pushing RTO and the economy in those fields also isn't great. I wouldn't really want to be a lawyer in private practice looking for a job right now just because I didn't like the hybrid RTO policy, for example. Associates don't really have the leverage you are describing in my field.