I’m surprised by the amount of people who wouldn’t report the boss.
Eh. With all of this, as a manager, I'd want to keep all of *my* ducks in a row (aka myself and my team). He's not one of my ducks AND he's my supervisor. What he's doing is dumb, and eventually someone is going to catch on. Which might (dare I say *will*) bring a shitstorm that I know I can handle because, again, my ducks are all in a row.
I’m surprised by the amount of people who wouldn’t report the boss.
Eh. With all of this, as a manager, I'd want to keep all of *my* ducks in a row (aka myself and my team). He's not one of my ducks AND he's my supervisor. What he's doing is dumb, and eventually someone is going to catch on. Which might (dare I say *will*) bring a shitstorm that I know I can handle because, again, my ducks are all in a row.
Perhaps it’s my work place, but not reporting is also an ethical violation.
Post by SusanBAnthony on Aug 29, 2023 17:15:45 GMT -5
People quitting over RTO is interesting. I am not seeing it actually happen. A few isolated ones but not many. I am guessing due to a combination of a lot of companies returning to at least hybrid, and the job market not being quite as strong.
I mean, they have the leverage here. I can tell you that I worked and socialize with many niche people and have heard many times that if they are forced to go in for "no reason" they will quit. FWIW, I and everyone else did go in when asked/needed but such requests were always justified with more than "that's policy". And I did quit (for personal reasons) and they haven't been able to replace me.
I do think if OP truly feels there is danger they will lose WFH privileges (or worse) if they don't come in, she should definitely mention that when talking to the employees. That's the only argument I've seen that would sway me.
Just to wear the management hat and play devil's advocate, I think this is very industry dependent right now. There are some industries really pushing RTO and the economy in those fields also isn't great. I wouldn't really want to be a lawyer in private practice looking for a job right now just because I didn't like the hybrid RTO policy, for example. Associates don't really have the leverage you are describing in my field.
I must be confusing things because I thought OP said she had 6 but 3 left and she hasn't been able to backfill, but on re-reading I don't see that. I agree it's dependent on the industry.
Just to wear the management hat and play devil's advocate, I think this is very industry dependent right now. There are some industries really pushing RTO and the economy in those fields also isn't great. I wouldn't really want to be a lawyer in private practice looking for a job right now just because I didn't like the hybrid RTO policy, for example. Associates don't really have the leverage you are describing in my field.
I must be confusing things because I thought OP said she had 6 but 3 left and she hasn't been able to backfill, but on re-reading I don't see that. I agree it's dependent on the industry.
I think OP would *almost* be willing to take a pay cut to backfill the vacant positions on their team, but management at OP's employer won't fund the positions, so like a lot of industries they make do with a lot less. It seems OP is worried about losing the remaining team members because the employer won't backfill those jobs either, and just expect more from the remaining skeleton crew, which is BS.
Then you have the layer how many people would apply for any open positions at OP's employer, especially if the job requires some to all in-office days?
I think a lot of employees want to quit if they're forced back to the office, but it's easier said than done. This includes being able to find a new employer who offers a true hybrid, or fully remote schedule since employers are pushing RTO as seen in this thread.
People quitting over RTO is interesting. I am not seeing it actually happen. A few isolated ones but not many. I am guessing due to a combination of a lot of companies returning to at least hybrid, and the job market not being quite as strong.
It is interesting. As I mentioned earlier - my university had record number retirements and EARLY retirements over RTO. So, after Omicron hit, they reevaluated this push and now things are a LOT more flexible. I guess the #s spoke.
As mentioned - this is industry specific, but DH has been interviewing people over the past few months. Just yesterday and today - he had 4 interviews scheduled. Only ONE happened. The other 3 ghosted! It's been a REAL problem trying to hire, so if some of his employees wanted to hold him hostage over various issues, they'd probably have solid ground to stand on.
I’m surprised by the amount of people who wouldn’t report the boss.
In fairness, I’ve been with my company 15 years and never reported anyone for anything. I could see reporting mistreatment or harassment or something, but can’t see doing it for this that doesn’t hurt anyone directly. I know any retaliation would be wrong but wouldn’t want to worry about the possibility over this.
People quitting over RTO is interesting. I am not seeing it actually happen. A few isolated ones but not many. I am guessing due to a combination of a lot of companies returning to at least hybrid, and the job market not being quite as strong.
It is interesting. As I mentioned earlier - my university had record number retirements and EARLY retirements over RTO. So, after Omicron hit, they reevaluated this push and now things are a LOT more flexible. I guess the #s spoke.
It must be very local area and industry dependent. A couple large employers in my city did pay offs so almost no one is quitting over RTO.
I don't see this any differently as any other job requirement. As a manager, your job is to make sure your reports are fulfilling their role duties. If one is come in to the office on Tuesdays, they need to come in on Tuesdays. Sounds like your plan to remind them to do so or to have a discussion about that rule (unofficial rule?) is necessary.
Ditto your boss and his wife being dumbasses and their actions will catch up to them sooner or later.
My workplace tracks badging in and out for certain employees. I send so many emails saying things like, you didn't badge in on Monday. Please let me know what time you arrived so your pay is accurate.
I’m surprised by the amount of people who wouldn’t report the boss.
In fairness, I’ve been with my company 15 years and never reported anyone for anything. I could see reporting mistreatment or harassment or something, but can’t see doing it for this that doesn’t hurt anyone directly. I know any retaliation would be wrong but wouldn’t want to worry about the possibility over this.
I’ve been with my company for over 17 years (started as a 2 year old) and I would be let go for not reporting.
We have an ethics code, badge requirements, safety requirements, etc.
I won’t even go into W@H as it relates to this topic.
If a badge is required to get into the office, it means something and is there for a reason.
As an employee who has had badges protect me from people who could potentially do harm to myself or others…I would be absolutely LIVID if someone gave their badge out because they, their wife, co-worker, GBCN felt it was no big deal.
I’m truly shocked that this is a W@H topic given the murder today at a person’s place of employment.
I’m surprised by the amount of people who wouldn’t report the boss.
Beyond the mandated reporting for ethics or a genuine safety risk, I ain't no snitch.
It is BONKERS to me that a company would see their workforce resistant to RTO and demand everyone back full time. This must be in industries/locations where qualified people are more abundant than available jobs.
AAM2012 my view may be influenced by the fact that in my first 14.5 at my firm, we didn’t have badges or need to use anything to come in the front door.
I work for a large company in the US. We have a hybrid work model with RTO starting in 2021. By a certain point in 2022 everyone was supposed to be back in a certain number of days a week. We have badge swipes to get into a building. They kept saying mgrs. needed to ensure employees follow the guidelines, though nothing was done to enforce with some employees not coming in. In 2023 they are using badge data and putting employees on performance improvement plans and possible impact to employee and mgr. performance assessments and pay increases as a result of having non compliant employees and taking no action.
Employees and managers said why didn't you broadly tell us you were going to start enforcement and the response was that managers were supposed to be enforcing it with their teams, with employees following it, since it was introduced per prior communications about the hybrid work model.
I say that as a cautionary tale as others have, I think even if the higher ups aren't doing anything, and while it may be a morale hit to some, it's still your responsibility as a manager to ensure your team is doing and following what they're supposed to follow.
Employees and managers said why didn't you broadly tell us you were going to start enforcement and the response was that managers were supposed to be enforcing it with their teams, with employees following it, since it was introduced per prior communications about the hybrid work model.
This kind of made me LOL, and it is a cautionary tale. Your company kept saying "RTO" and people didn't .... so, now it's being enforced. I suspect that even if they had said "we're going to enforce it", people wouldn't have taken it seriously. So, here you all are now!
Honestly, I would start looking. Seems like there are issues top to bottom. I don't think I could work for people who thought it was totes ok to have their wife swipe their badge.
Honestly, I would start looking. Seems like there are issues top to bottom. I don't think I could work for people who thought it was totes ok to have their wife swipe their badge.
I'm way too close to retirement to consider start looking elsewhere, and my boss is retiring in a couple of years. I've put in many, many years here and can pretty much do what I want (the flexibility is a huge perk, along w/ my benefits (PTO, healthcare, 401k matches, LTIs) that are well above average). I have no desire to start over at this point in my life.
If I were in my 30s and still had 25-30 yrs of work ahead of me before retirement, that might be a different story depending on how that work environment evolved.
Some of these responses baffle me - y'all - no one is IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
This is true, but why would you replace an incumbent who is doing their job well if you don't have to? Losing employees over a policy that doesn't need to exist is dumb.
Some of these responses baffle me - y'all - no one is IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
This is true, but why would you replace an incumbent who is doing their job well if you don't have to? Losing employees over a policy that doesn't need to exist is dumb.
I can't speak to whether or not this particular policy needs to exist of course. I'm just generally musing over the number of people who think folks are irreplaceable when that typically just isn't the case.
Some of these responses baffle me - y'all - no one is IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
Again, it may be industry specific - but when my DH has people not showing up for interviews, it actually does make it impossible for him to hire. And the one guy he did recently hire, didn't show up!
There are some real shortages out there that will give some power to the employees!
Some of these responses baffle me - y'all - no one is IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
Again, it may be industry specific - but when my DH has people not showing up for interviews, it actually does make it impossible for him to hire. And the one guy he did recently hire, didn't show up!
There are some real shortages out there that will give some power to the employees!
Since we've reached the anecdote portion of our program... I recently tried to fill two positions: One was Sr. X and the other was X Dept Manager. Sr. was listed as fully remote, Manager was listed as hybrid. We got a ton of applications for Sr., very few for Manager. When we looked at the applications, most of the Sr. applicants were qualified for Manager, so we called a few and asked if they would interview for the Manager position, and all of those said yes but only if it was fully remote. We ended up hiring an Sr. applicant for the Manager position (she is actually overqualified for that role)-- she left her previous job because it required RTO. These policies have a big impact on hiring!
Your boss is fixing to get fired when they find out what he's doing, and probably his wife too.
I can't get over putting the whole household's income so risk like this. It's just so stupid.
Yes! To be vague about it (but he said it was ok to share) there was an emergency at my husband’s work and they had to evacuate the block and that’s how they found out someone was doing something similar to this with another person. Security kept looking for this man to clear the building because he was clocked in and it turned out he wasn’t even there.
That whole department got shook up, people got demoted and fired. That’s why I was saying I’d be worried about it coming back on me if it came out I knew.
Some of these responses baffle me - y'all - no one is IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
Of course we're not impossible to replace, but at my former job, it would have taken someone a year or more to come up to speed, if they could even find anyone with the type of background I had (way more jobs than seekers in this niche). They've been looking for a year and have asked me for help. They are now trying to find a new college grad to train, but it will be literal years before such a person can fully take over my stuff. They have not been able to make certain products without my expertise and have gaps in their product line (small company of less than 20 so it does make a noticeable impact).
In my husband's company, they're already way short of the people needed to complete the contracts they've already won and have been unable to hire at even close to the pace needed for that. And one contract was won largely on the basis that H and another person had previously worked an earlier version of the program and were highly respected. That's pretty tough to replicate...
So yeah, the companies are not going belly up without us but at the end of the day it's not worth it for them to fight over RTO.
Some of these responses baffle me - y'all - no one is IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
Yes, but turnover is expensive and inefficient. And there is a lot of institutional knowledge that is lost when a senior employee leaves.
It probably depends on your industry. My company started hiring fully remote employees even before the pandemic because they couldn't fill positions locally or get people to relocate (HCOL). Which makes RTO even dumber for us since if people quit, they will likely be replaced by a fully remote employee (if they are replaced at all). Those of us who are local have been with the company the longest and have the most tenure. Make it make sense!!!
This is true, but why would you replace an incumbent who is doing their job well if you don't have to? Losing employees over a policy that doesn't need to exist is dumb.
I can't speak to whether or not this particular policy needs to exist of course. I'm just generally musing over the number of people who think folks are irreplaceable when that typically just isn't the case.
I don't think anyone is saying/thinks employees are irreplaceable. We're saying that it's a huge PITA to re-hire, and re-train new employees, especially when OP has mentioned that the employer in the post has no plan to backfill vacant positions. That's happening in a lot of places with people leaving, people retiring, retirement buy-outs and so on. As someone mentioned a lot of companies are hoping employees leave on their own so they don't have layoffs. I think you're in HE so you should have gone through this pre-COVID, as well do less with more, for no extra pay, and don't complain or find another job. I can't blame OP for trying to bend over backward to keep relatively reliable (minus not going in or communicating about in-office days, (what appears) well trained employees on a small, overworked team. OP is going to recalibrate the team by telling them about the in-office policy, and I ASSume start taking action if they don't. It's a risk OP runs to keep their own job...
Regarding when and if RTO will slow down and we can all WFH, I don't think that's going to happen for a long time. As mentioned above, a lot of places have big rents to pay for their physical locations, some which went through major renovations not knowing a global pandemic was coming. They have to justify that cost. It's not fair to employees, and it's exhausting always having to wonder if and when your routine will change due to commuting. Even looking for a new job you have something hanging over you how long will this hybrid or all remote thing last/will it go away in 6 months?
My now old boss' husband's company had massive layoffs earlier this year because they were losing a lot of money on a beautiful building that no one was working in. There are some financial issues that didn't make sense to me, but I didn't dive in. Either way over 900 people lost their job without the offer to RTO. Even my current job is all remote, but we have a beautiful building that sits mostly empty. I really pray they don't try to force the local employees to RTO, as they're having more and more on-sites every quarter.
Finally, I know I hate on HE a lot now, but read the Chronicle of HE, ask almost any HE professional outside of maybe a desirable R1 or really big name school, even watch the "ever so reliable Tik Tok" (joking here) about how people just aren't applying to HE anymore. I've posted before about searches that took months because they didn't like the few candidates they got, and most of those dropped because they got other offers. I know that's not OP's industry, but there are a lot of places that are hurting for employees.