Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (@ mentions)

[fryjack2]

Nov 11, 2023 17:30:04 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Nov 10, 2023 11:44:25 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I saw something on social media that unfortunately made a lot of sense to me. We can’t expect our country to care about children being murdered in Gaza when it can’t even do anything about its own children being murdered by guns daily.

I cannot understand the thinking that a ceasefire = antisemitism.

I am quoting myself here because I just went back to the anti-semitism thread and read how a call for ceasefire comes across as antisemitic when not also coupled with a call out against Hamas. That makes sense to me, so let me be clear, I support a ceasefire to help the civilians and the eradication of Hamas. I always try to be careful with my words and will add this nuance into my words for the future.

Honest question- when every single person I know, including myself are calling for a ceasefire for humanitarian aid to be able to come in, hospitals to give care to those injured without further influx of patients they can’t treat, People to be able to move south more easily, why do I need to add for the millionth time that I don’t support Hamas? Why aren’t the people saying a ceasefire is antisemitic not also saying that the occupation is a crime and what is happening in Gaza is breaking many international laws? Why do Palestinian supporters have to always expand and explain and defend themselves right now? For asking for their people to stop being murdered?! My focus is on the humanitarian crisis and minimizing the impact on innocent people.

The logic that a ceasefire will allow hamas to attack again is questionable to me. Isn’t the Israeli military able to see an attack coming at this point? Where would the attack come from? The rubble in the north? I’m not being a jerk, I just don’t understand how another surprise attack would be carried out from within Gaza.

You know what else is bullshit and gaslighting the Palestinian people? The current comment floating around that Hamas is responsible for all this death and suffering and ONLY Hamas. As if Israel is not the one dropping the bombs, using white phosphorus, blocking exits, bombing people evacuating, enter hospitals and killing those inside, bombing places designated as safe, has cut off food and water, electricity, and on and on.

As much as I want the hostages released, I have zero confidence that doing so would result in a ceasefire. Releasing the hostages doesn’t get rid of Hamas, which is the reason Israel is giving as to why they are bombing Gaza in its entirely.

I may not be making sense. My head just keeps spinning as more depressing news is shown every hour and I can’t do a thing to help. And every single thing supporters of Palestine say is turned into something sinister. Can’t say Free Palestine. Can’t say end the occupation. Can’t say from the river to the sea. Can’t mention the 11k dead without also mentioning the hostages and those lost on Oct 7th. Can’t attend a rally in support of Palestinian human rights. Can’t attend a rally in support of Palestine or one to demand a ceasefire. Can’t even say you demand a ceasefire.

Nothing supporting Palestine will ever be ok. It will always be twisted into something it’s not.

[sproctopus]

It's absolute insanity the eggshells people (general) are requiring Palestinian supporters to walk on in order to say stop killing Palestinians. Israel has made it absolutely clear the goal is to eradicate Palestine and its people. I have said this earlier and I will say it again-- these are war crimes. This is genocide.

Free Palestine.
End the occupation of Palestine.

[sproctopus]

fryjack2 You don't need me to tell you at all bc who am I, but you are making, and have been making, sense.

[Rainyday]

Nov 6, 2023 12:20:42 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 6, 2023 11:38:44 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

So I am seeing a lot of silence in spaces that aren’t usually silent about almost any other topic. I imagine others are as well.

Yes- I have noticed this on my Facebook. I went to the protest in DC on Saturday. I gave a lot of thought to posting specific pics on FB and wrote a message along with the pictures. I got exactly 3 responses to my thread - likes two from friends who are from Libya and one from my mom. In comparison to most other things I post, I was really surprised by the lack of engagement. I expected at least a few comments from others who were upset or wished they had been able to attend, or at least some likes in solidarity. I mean I didn't share my post for likes - I shared it to make my stance on the situation clear and to share some more "on the ground" images than what I'd seen on TV. But I found the silence pretty loud, especially in comparison to most other things I've posted on FB recently. (I did get a little more engagement on IG, at least).

So much that it made me wonder if FB is filtering posts on this topic - I'd love to know if any of you who I'm connected with on FB saw my post in your feed? 

I'll also add that at the protest, there were other white people - but not nearly as many as I would have hoped. Most of the protesters appeared to have ancestry somewhere in the middle east or were Black. IMO this is a great example of a time when white folks need to show up.  

All that said, I don't know that I'd take lack of continued posting in this thread as lack of engagement on this board specifically. I've donated to aid organizations, sent messages to my representatives, and attended a protest, but I haven't posted in here in a few days. I just don't have much new to say and think there is a fine line on social media between posting to share information and posting to appear engaged or to feel good about yourself that you "did something". 

wildrice I would be interested in hearing about your experience in DC.
I don't have FB/IG so I can't speak to their filtering. Although nothing surprises me anymore with regard to biased media.
It was shocking to learn of that the DC march was so under reported.
I would like to here more first hand accounts.

[BlondeSpiders]

Nov 9, 2023 8:24:05 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

This site allows you to enter your zip and phone number and it will call you and connect you to your reps one after the other and gives you a script to say. I just leave mine short and ask them to support a ceasefire and vote for Cori Bush’s res.

act.uscpr.org/a/callforgaza

I will admit to using ChatGPT to craft a letter to my Congresspeople. 

Side note: I was sad to move out of Pramila Jayapal's district. I love her.

[wildrice]

Nov 12, 2023 14:23:45 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Nov 6, 2023 12:20:42 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Yes- I have noticed this on my Facebook. I went to the protest in DC on Saturday. I gave a lot of thought to posting specific pics on FB and wrote a message along with the pictures. I got exactly 3 responses to my thread - likes two from friends who are from Libya and one from my mom. In comparison to most other things I post, I was really surprised by the lack of engagement. I expected at least a few comments from others who were upset or wished they had been able to attend, or at least some likes in solidarity. I mean I didn't share my post for likes - I shared it to make my stance on the situation clear and to share some more "on the ground" images than what I'd seen on TV. But I found the silence pretty loud, especially in comparison to most other things I've posted on FB recently. (I did get a little more engagement on IG, at least).

So much that it made me wonder if FB is filtering posts on this topic - I'd love to know if any of you who I'm connected with on FB saw my post in your feed? 

I'll also add that at the protest, there were other white people - but not nearly as many as I would have hoped. Most of the protesters appeared to have ancestry somewhere in the middle east or were Black. IMO this is a great example of a time when white folks need to show up.  

All that said, I don't know that I'd take lack of continued posting in this thread as lack of engagement on this board specifically. I've donated to aid organizations, sent messages to my representatives, and attended a protest, but I haven't posted in here in a few days. I just don't have much new to say and think there is a fine line on social media between posting to share information and posting to appear engaged or to feel good about yourself that you "did something". 

wildrice I would be interested in hearing about your experience in DC.
I don't have FB/IG so I can't speak to their filtering. Although nothing surprises me anymore with regard to biased media.
It was shocking to learn of that the DC march was so under reported.
I would like to here more first hand accounts.

I'm happy to answer any questions! I had hoped there would be more coverage, too.

The biggest feeling I took away from being there was that it was really powerful. I felt grateful that I was able to join in the support. There were so many people - I have never been good at judging how many people are in a crowd, but we could not see the end of the crowd in any direction. We were trying to think of it in terms of the number of people you'd see in a football stadium, and I bet there was at least 1-2 stadiums. And those can hold 80-100k people so that's a lot of people!

There were a number of speakers, including people from all over the country, representatives from native American tribes, several groups representing Black interests - in other words, lots of people who know what it's like to be oppressed and be stripped of rights that should have historically been theirs. There were also multiple Jewish groups that spoke and I saw quite a few signs saying something along the lines of "I'm Jewish and I support a cease fire". I am white and not religious so it is tough for me to properly evaluate how it felt for people who are personally impacted by all of this - but from my perspective, I thought it was a beautiful coming together of diverse people who come from all different backgrounds and cultures, but who wanted to support Palestinians and show that people care about what happens to them. The crowd was angry about what was happening and condemned Biden and his administration for their actions, but I also thought that it was respectful toward each other and toward Jewish people, with multiple mentions about how anti-Semitism was ALSO unacceptable and that the problem was with the government and its treatment of the people of Palestine. I'm obviously paraphrasing. 

The only thing that I did struggle with myself was that there were lots of statements about not voting for Biden over this. While I completely understand that thought process and would rather not vote for him myself... I cannot imagine Trump or Desantis doing any better, and even if they are exactly the same on this issue they are worse on so many others. I am extremely disappointed in Biden, but I cannot support sitting out on voting or voting for the other guy when the other guy is likely to do even more harm. I recognize that I am sitting here in a privileged position to be able to look at it that way, though - if it was my people being erased I may have a different perspective and don't think any less of anyone for feeling that way. It just makes me nervous for what will happen in the future with US politics.

[sproctopus]

Nov 13, 2023 21:18:37 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 12, 2023 14:23:45 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

wildrice I would be interested in hearing about your experience in DC.
I don't have FB/IG so I can't speak to their filtering. Although nothing surprises me anymore with regard to biased media.
It was shocking to learn of that the DC march was so under reported.
I would like to here more first hand accounts.

I'm happy to answer any questions! I had hoped there would be more coverage, too.

The biggest feeling I took away from being there was that it was really powerful. I felt grateful that I was able to join in the support. There were so many people - I have never been good at judging how many people are in a crowd, but we could not see the end of the crowd in any direction. We were trying to think of it in terms of the number of people you'd see in a football stadium, and I bet there was at least 1-2 stadiums. And those can hold 80-100k people so that's a lot of people!

There were a number of speakers, including people from all over the country, representatives from native American tribes, several groups representing Black interests - in other words, lots of people who know what it's like to be oppressed and be stripped of rights that should have historically been theirs. There were also multiple Jewish groups that spoke and I saw quite a few signs saying something along the lines of "I'm Jewish and I support a cease fire". I am white and not religious so it is tough for me to properly evaluate how it felt for people who are personally impacted by all of this - but from my perspective, I thought it was a beautiful coming together of diverse people who come from all different backgrounds and cultures, but who wanted to support Palestinians and show that people care about what happens to them. The crowd was angry about what was happening and condemned Biden and his administration for their actions, but I also thought that it was respectful toward each other and toward Jewish people, with multiple mentions about how anti-Semitism was ALSO unacceptable and that the problem was with the government and its treatment of the people of Palestine. I'm obviously paraphrasing. 

The only thing that I did struggle with myself was that there were lots of statements about not voting for Biden over this. While I completely understand that thought process and would rather not vote for him myself... I cannot imagine Trump or Desantis doing any better, and even if they are exactly the same on this issue they are worse on so many others. I am extremely disappointed in Biden, but I cannot support sitting out on voting or voting for the other guy when the other guy is likely to do even more harm. I recognize that I am sitting here in a privileged position to be able to look at it that way, though - if it was my people being erased I may have a different perspective and don't think any less of anyone for feeling that way. It just makes me nervous for what will happen in the future with US politics.

I think Biden and any sitting member supporting Israel's Palestinian genocide should be scared about what's going to happen to their jobs in 2024. That's like number 50,000,000 on the list of why a ceasefire should happen, but it's a growing sentiment in the Democratic voting party right now.

[seeyalater52]

Nov 13, 2023 22:51:41 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Nov 13, 2023 21:18:37 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I'm happy to answer any questions! I had hoped there would be more coverage, too.

The biggest feeling I took away from being there was that it was really powerful. I felt grateful that I was able to join in the support. There were so many people - I have never been good at judging how many people are in a crowd, but we could not see the end of the crowd in any direction. We were trying to think of it in terms of the number of people you'd see in a football stadium, and I bet there was at least 1-2 stadiums. And those can hold 80-100k people so that's a lot of people!

There were a number of speakers, including people from all over the country, representatives from native American tribes, several groups representing Black interests - in other words, lots of people who know what it's like to be oppressed and be stripped of rights that should have historically been theirs. There were also multiple Jewish groups that spoke and I saw quite a few signs saying something along the lines of "I'm Jewish and I support a cease fire". I am white and not religious so it is tough for me to properly evaluate how it felt for people who are personally impacted by all of this - but from my perspective, I thought it was a beautiful coming together of diverse people who come from all different backgrounds and cultures, but who wanted to support Palestinians and show that people care about what happens to them. The crowd was angry about what was happening and condemned Biden and his administration for their actions, but I also thought that it was respectful toward each other and toward Jewish people, with multiple mentions about how anti-Semitism was ALSO unacceptable and that the problem was with the government and its treatment of the people of Palestine. I'm obviously paraphrasing. 

The only thing that I did struggle with myself was that there were lots of statements about not voting for Biden over this. While I completely understand that thought process and would rather not vote for him myself... I cannot imagine Trump or Desantis doing any better, and even if they are exactly the same on this issue they are worse on so many others. I am extremely disappointed in Biden, but I cannot support sitting out on voting or voting for the other guy when the other guy is likely to do even more harm. I recognize that I am sitting here in a privileged position to be able to look at it that way, though - if it was my people being erased I may have a different perspective and don't think any less of anyone for feeling that way. It just makes me nervous for what will happen in the future with US politics.

I think Biden and any sitting member supporting Israel's Palestinian genocide should be scared about what's going to happen to their jobs in 2024. That's like number 50,000,000 on the list of why a ceasefire should happen, but it's a growing sentiment in the Democratic voting party right now.

Strong agree. Perhaps self interested since I enjoy having some marginal semblance of civil rights in this country, but there’s very little that would be a total dealbreaker for me voting for the Dem presidential nominee in a general election, but this is a real concern. I think it is absolutely worth acknowledging that the reality of the Democratic electorate, especially among younger voters, is that the current positioning on Palestine is a losing proposition for an increasingly large number of voters. It’s not just Biden, Congressional offices are getting FLOODED with ceasefire calls and even more progressive Dems are ignoring their constituents. Public sentiment is against US support of this war at this point.

I’m pretty over telling people, especially marginalized/disenfranchised people, what they should or should not prioritize in the voting booth at this point - I certainly have my own nonnegotiables and make my own complicated calculus in my decision-making and increasingly I get why people are fucking done with the whole thing.

Fundamentally it is and should be a problem for Biden and any Democrat who holds the same position on Palestine as Trump and DeSantis, no matter what we think of their other policy positions. They need to be called out and political pressure needs to be exerted. Full stop. They need to understand that they could and potentially will lose their seats if they allow these atrocities to continue draped under an American flag. And if that results in some really unfortunate electoral outcomes that’s literally no one’s fault but Democrats. They’ve had quite literally decades to get it together on this issue and they have chosen not to.

[wildrice]

Nov 14, 2023 10:13:23 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Nov 13, 2023 22:51:41 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

I think Biden and any sitting member supporting Israel's Palestinian genocide should be scared about what's going to happen to their jobs in 2024. That's like number 50,000,000 on the list of why a ceasefire should happen, but it's a growing sentiment in the Democratic voting party right now.

Strong agree. Perhaps self interested since I enjoy having some marginal semblance of civil rights in this country, but there’s very little that would be a total dealbreaker for me voting for the Dem presidential nominee in a general election, but this is a real concern. I think it is absolutely worth acknowledging that the reality of the Democratic electorate, especially among younger voters, is that the current positioning on Palestine is a losing proposition for an increasingly large number of voters. It’s not just Biden, Congressional offices are getting FLOODED with ceasefire calls and even more progressive Dems are ignoring their constituents. Public sentiment is against US support of this war at this point.

I’m pretty over telling people, especially marginalized/disenfranchised people, what they should or should not prioritize in the voting booth at this point - I certainly have my own nonnegotiables and make my own complicated calculus in my decision-making and increasingly I get why people are fucking done with the whole thing.

Fundamentally it is and should be a problem for Biden and any Democrat who holds the same position on Palestine as Trump and DeSantis, no matter what we think of their other policy positions. They need to be called out and political pressure needs to be exerted. Full stop. They need to understand that they could and potentially will lose their seats if they allow these atrocities to continue draped under an American flag. And if that results in some really unfortunate electoral outcomes that’s literally no one’s fault but Democrats. They’ve had quite literally decades to get it together on this issue and they have chosen not to.

I do agree completely, especially the part about not telling disenfranchised people what they should or should not do with their vote. I just found it personally challenging to join in on those statements. Obviously, the whole experience wasn't about me though!

We truly do not have a representative democracy in this country. It sucks that there are no acceptable alternatives to vote for (and that's an understatement). I wish we could get rid of the whole lot of them. They all are complicit.

[sproctopus]

Nov 14, 2023 10:13:23 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Nov 13, 2023 22:51:41 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

I think Biden and any sitting member supporting Israel's Palestinian genocide should be scared about what's going to happen to their jobs in 2024. That's like number 50,000,000 on the list of why a ceasefire should happen, but it's a growing sentiment in the Democratic voting party right now.

Strong agree. Perhaps self interested since I enjoy having some marginal semblance of civil rights in this country, but there’s very little that would be a total dealbreaker for me voting for the Dem presidential nominee in a general election, but this is a real concern. I think it is absolutely worth acknowledging that the reality of the Democratic electorate, especially among younger voters, is that the current positioning on Palestine is a losing proposition for an increasingly large number of voters. It’s not just Biden, Congressional offices are getting FLOODED with ceasefire calls and even more progressive Dems are ignoring their constituents. Public sentiment is against US support of this war at this point.

I’m pretty over telling people, especially marginalized/disenfranchised people, what they should or should not prioritize in the voting booth at this point - I certainly have my own nonnegotiables and make my own complicated calculus in my decision-making and increasingly I get why people are fucking done with the whole thing.

Fundamentally it is and should be a problem for Biden and any Democrat who holds the same position on Palestine as Trump and DeSantis, no matter what we think of their other policy positions. They need to be called out and political pressure needs to be exerted. Full stop. They need to understand that they could and potentially will lose their seats if they allow these atrocities to continue draped under an American flag. And if that results in some really unfortunate electoral outcomes that’s literally no one’s fault but Democrats. They’ve had quite literally decades to get it together on this issue and they have chosen not to.

Very well put. It will be the fault of those refusing to take action their constituents (and frankly, the entire rest of the world) are calling for. In my family and circle (a group the Dems count on as an automatic base), the feeling now is that Biden and Trump are 6 of one and half dozen of another. And they're adamant that Biden has lost their vote and his action now is too late and his words early on encouraged the death of innocent civilians. It wouldn't be that they'd vote for the other side, but likely that they won't go to the polls. And I think that's largely the worst thing that can happen to the Democrats.

But again, this feels so crass to even discuss because preventing and/or intervening in /stopping a genocide should not be political.

[fryjack2]

Has anyone seen the videos of what has been found in the hospital?

I can't even articulate thoughts.

[bugandbibs]

Nov 15, 2023 18:57:29 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Has anyone seen the videos of what has been found in the hospital?

I can't even articulate thoughts.

Yes, I don't really have words.  I've been trying to sift through to find reliable sources in English to explain what is being said versus what it actually is and it's hard because I don't have trusted people in this community and I have to relay on people I trust to say "this person is legit".

The propaganda and gaslighting is mind boggling and reminds me of the fake weapons of mass destruction hysteria used to justify the US going to war.

[fryjack2]

bugandbibs.

This is cnn’s video:

www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/cnn-inside-gaza-hospital-israel-defense-forces-hamas-robertson-pkg-src-vpx.cnn

[basilosaurus]

Idf is bragging, in the midst of pictures of soldiers in tanks, that they delivered incubators and food. There were already incubators, but they can't fucking run without electricity.

Do I think it's possible hamas are hiding in hospitals? Of course. But a targeted attack doesn't take tanks and shooting at walls and windows. Do they really think anyone is buying their cover story?

[jlt19]

Probably a dumb question, but why is the US so hell bent on doubling down on our support of Israel in this?

[sproctopus]

Nov 15, 2023 20:26:44 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Probably a dumb question, but why is the US so hell bent on doubling down on our support of Israel in this?

To have influence on the Middle East.

[jlt19]

Nov 15, 2023 19:38:11 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

bugandbibs.

This is cnn’s video:

www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/cnn-inside-gaza-hospital-israel-defense-forces-hamas-robertson-pkg-src-vpx.cnn

Maybe it’s because I just read the CC, or because I don’t know much about wartime evidence/intelligence, but that was less than a convincing argument for infiltration of a fully occupied hospital.

[Bad Dingo]

Nov 15, 2023 20:26:44 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Probably a dumb question, but why is the US so hell bent on doubling down on our support of Israel in this?

Because Israel is a Democracy.

[Bad Dingo]

Nov 15, 2023 20:40:08 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Nov 15, 2023 19:38:11 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

bugandbibs .

This is cnn’s video:

www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/cnn-inside-gaza-hospital-israel-defense-forces-hamas-robertson-pkg-src-vpx.cnn

Maybe it’s because I just read the CC, or because I don’t know much about wartime evidence/intelligence, but that was less than a convincing argument for infiltration of a fully occupied hospital.

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

[icedcoffee]

Nov 16, 2023 3:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 15, 2023 20:40:08 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Maybe it’s because I just read the CC, or because I don’t know much about wartime evidence/intelligence, but that was less than a convincing argument for infiltration of a fully occupied hospital.

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

This is where I am. What’s the alternative if Hamas’ control center really is under the hospital? It seems like they think the hostages might be there?

I’m not trying to argue. Legit asking. My first thought when watching the video was not what I’m sensing others here thought. Is their propaganda working on me? We think it’s fake?

My reaction was that there’s probably a lot they are not reporting because it’s an ongoing situation and clarity will come in a few days. Maybe that’s wrong?

[turboteal]

Nov 16, 2023 3:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 15, 2023 20:40:08 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Maybe it’s because I just read the CC, or because I don’t know much about wartime evidence/intelligence, but that was less than a convincing argument for infiltration of a fully occupied hospital.

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

The hospital still has over 600 patients, including 36 premature babies, plus over 500 medical staff, and 5000 refugees seeking shelter there according to the medical director inside who Al Jazeera has been communicating with (live updates page, you'll have to scroll a bit for that info): www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/16/israel-hamas-war-live-israel-rejects-un-security-council-gaza-resolution

IDF forces are actively raiding different areas of the hospital and destroying buildings/equipment, while not allowing anyone in or out or any food/water/medical supplies in. I feel like if you know you are going to raid/destroy a hospital, maybe take responsibility to evacuate the remaining patients once you're there? Bring your own medical corps to take over care/transport of those people to field hospitals or something? But the way they are going about it really makes it seem like they don't care about civilian casualties (obviously, with the widespread bombing, even along their own preapproved evacuation routes and in areas they tell civilians to evacuate to) and are happy to destroy all infrastructure so that even if Hamas is somehow completely eliminated, nobody would be able to return and resume living here again.

[icedcoffee]

turboteal Thanks for sharing the source. Off to read!

[Bad Dingo]

Thank you for the correct information, turboteal. I saw this as well:
Israeli commandos are searching through every building and every floor of Gaza’s al-Shifa hospital while hundreds of patients and medical staff remain in the complex, an Israeli military official said on Thursday."
www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/16/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-biden-ceasefire-israel-criticises-un-humanitarian-pauses?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-65560a9a8f08d1d922ef7ee9

It's such a horrible situation.

[sproctopus]

Nov 16, 2023 7:50:15 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Nov 16, 2023 3:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

This is where I am. What’s the alternative if Hamas’ control center really is under the hospital? It seems like they think the hostages might be there?

I’m not trying to argue. Legit asking. My first thought when watching the video was not what I’m sensing others here thought. Is their propaganda working on me? We think it’s fake?

My reaction was that there’s probably a lot they are not reporting because it’s an ongoing situation and clarity will come in a few days. Maybe that’s wrong?

If they thought the hostages were there, why would they bomb it?

The mental gymnastics of wondering what else to do when it impacts innocent Palestinian civilians is wild to me. Never have I ever heard an American wonder why we dont just blow up a school when a domestic terrorist is holed up inside. Or bomb the entire city of Boston while snuffing out terrorists.

I guess the even larger question I have is what do people think will happen through indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian people, aside from their eradication? That Hamas will be bombed into non-existence? Has that worked before?

[laurack]

Nov 16, 2023 14:09:47 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Nov 16, 2023 7:50:15 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

This is where I am. What’s the alternative if Hamas’ control center really is under the hospital? It seems like they think the hostages might be there?

I’m not trying to argue. Legit asking. My first thought when watching the video was not what I’m sensing others here thought. Is their propaganda working on me? We think it’s fake?

My reaction was that there’s probably a lot they are not reporting because it’s an ongoing situation and clarity will come in a few days. Maybe that’s wrong?

If they thought the hostages were there, why would they bomb it?

The mental gymnastics of wondering what else to do when it impacts innocent Palestinian civilians is wild to me. Never have I ever heard an American wonder why we dont just blow up a school when a domestic terrorist is holed up inside. Or bomb the entire city of Boston while snuffing out terrorists.

I guess the even larger question I have is what do people think will happen through indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian people, aside from their eradication? That Hamas will be bombed into non-existence? Has that worked before?

Complete insanity the hoops people will jump through to convince themselves this is an acceptable genocide situation. Would it be ok to bomb an entire, occupied hospital in America to potentially kill a terrorist or is it only ok to do that in the name of eradicating a terrorist when the casualties are Palestinian children instead of white American ones.

Try to think about it through that lens and things might seem a bit clearer. Like insert the word Boston instead of Gaza when taking about how they have to bomb the schools and hospitals coz a terrorist might be in there, and just picture it.

[fryjack2]

Nov 16, 2023 3:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 15, 2023 20:40:08 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Maybe it’s because I just read the CC, or because I don’t know much about wartime evidence/intelligence, but that was less than a convincing argument for infiltration of a fully occupied hospital.

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

Thank you for removing the inaccurate information about the hospital being evacuated.

By one of the many definitions of terrorism, Israel could be considered a terrorist organization right now as well.
Is Wikipedia an acceptable source? I’ll delete if not.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

* not disputing Hamas being one.

[fryjack2]

The comments on my town’s Facebook and comments heard and read elsewhere make me wonder where people get their news because so much of it is the exact opposite of news that I am seeing reported.

I know there are many many biased sources out there but the discrepancy is staggering. I shouldn’t be so surprised since we have been living through Trump fuckery for what, 7 years now?

[icedcoffee]

Nov 16, 2023 14:09:47 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Nov 16, 2023 7:50:15 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

This is where I am. What’s the alternative if Hamas’ control center really is under the hospital? It seems like they think the hostages might be there?

I’m not trying to argue. Legit asking. My first thought when watching the video was not what I’m sensing others here thought. Is their propaganda working on me? We think it’s fake?

My reaction was that there’s probably a lot they are not reporting because it’s an ongoing situation and clarity will come in a few days. Maybe that’s wrong?

If they thought the hostages were there, why would they bomb it?

The mental gymnastics of wondering what else to do when it impacts innocent Palestinian civilians is wild to me. Never have I ever heard an American wonder why we dont just blow up a school when a domestic terrorist is holed up inside. Or bomb the entire city of Boston while snuffing out terrorists.

I guess the even larger question I have is what do people think will happen through indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian people, aside from their eradication? That Hamas will be bombed into non-existence? Has that worked before?

Good points. I thought they weren’t bombing but doing targeted invasion. Ughh. It’s all so hard to understand. Appreciate the ability to hear all sides here and no being rude.

[sproctopus]

Nov 16, 2023 18:08:06 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Nov 16, 2023 14:09:47 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

If they thought the hostages were there, why would they bomb it?

The mental gymnastics of wondering what else to do when it impacts innocent Palestinian civilians is wild to me. Never have I ever heard an American wonder why we dont just blow up a school when a domestic terrorist is holed up inside. Or bomb the entire city of Boston while snuffing out terrorists.

I guess the even larger question I have is what do people think will happen through indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian people, aside from their eradication? That Hamas will be bombed into non-existence? Has that worked before?

Good points. I thought they weren’t bombing but doing targeted invasion. Ughh. It’s all so hard to understand. Appreciate the ability to hear all sides here and no being rude.

The mental gymnastics wasn't directed just at you, but the general people I see question this (particularly when defending the actions, not just asking.) There are people on the ground like Bisan, Motaz and Plestia recording and reporting the atrocities in Gaza now-- if you want a perspective that isn't through the Western media lens.

[karinothing]

Nov 16, 2023 15:26:39 GMT -5 laurack said:

Nov 16, 2023 14:09:47 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

If they thought the hostages were there, why would they bomb it?

The mental gymnastics of wondering what else to do when it impacts innocent Palestinian civilians is wild to me. Never have I ever heard an American wonder why we dont just blow up a school when a domestic terrorist is holed up inside. Or bomb the entire city of Boston while snuffing out terrorists.

I guess the even larger question I have is what do people think will happen through indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian people, aside from their eradication? That Hamas will be bombed into non-existence? Has that worked before?

Complete insanity the hoops people will jump through to convince themselves this is an acceptable genocide situation. Would it be ok to bomb an entire, occupied hospital in America to potentially kill a terrorist or is it only ok to do that in the name of eradicating a terrorist when the casualties are Palestinian children instead of white American ones.

Try to think about it through that lens and things might seem a bit clearer. Like insert the word Boston instead of Gaza when taking about how they have to bomb the schools and hospitals coz a terrorist might be in there, and just picture it.

I agree and it is insane. Hamas isn't unique in using this technique. As far as I know the US did not go around blowing up hospitals, schools, etc in Afghanistan. In fact, when something is hit the US typically goes through pretty good lengths to apologize. I mean didn't they accidentally target a van recently that was a family not terrorists.  The US helped move some of the family to the US and promised to give them money (not sure that has all happened yet, but the point is they recognized it as a big deal)  www.nytimes.com/2022/01/19/us/politics/afghanistan-drone-strike-video.html

Generally countries that consider themselves democracies do not go around blowing up targets like this even if the bad guy is inside.