Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (@ mentions)

[fryjack2]

Can I also point out how laughable some of the video released of what was found in the basement of the hospital is?

Does anyone really believe that Hamas would leave behind a computer and discs of information in an mri room? When they had tons of notice that troops were coming?

Or maybe are they discs to use to put mri data on and a work computer? Just a thought.

[jlt19]

Nov 16, 2023 3:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 15, 2023 20:40:08 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Maybe it’s because I just read the CC, or because I don’t know much about wartime evidence/intelligence, but that was less than a convincing argument for infiltration of a fully occupied hospital.

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

I was under the impression the hospital they were “touring” with the CNN reporter was a different one than Al Shifa. But their evidence of Hamas being headquartered there was silly.
-an ARMORY, of 4 guns…
-a motorcycle that was PROBABLY used in the attack on Oct 7
-a chair with a rope nearby which most likely held one of the hostages

Like there were not any other plausible explanations for the things they found. In a completely bombed out, abandoned area.

[fryjack2]

Israeli forces are now raiding hospitals in the West Bank, where they have also been bombing. Remember when there was uproar over the accusation that the first hospital bombing was an Israeli strike? Now it’s just an accepted practice by world leaders? Are we rewriting international law on the fly to allow these atrocities?

www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/israeli-forces-raid-jenin-surround-hospitals-in-occupied-west-bank

[icedcoffee]

Nov 16, 2023 18:23:01 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Nov 16, 2023 18:08:06 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Good points. I thought they weren’t bombing but doing targeted invasion. Ughh. It’s all so hard to understand. Appreciate the ability to hear all sides here and no being rude.

The mental gymnastics wasn't directed just at you, but the general people I see question this (particularly when defending the actions, not just asking.) There are people on the ground like Bisan, Motaz and Plestia recording and reporting the atrocities in Gaza now-- if you want a perspective that isn't through the Western media lens.

Thanks for recommending those people on the ground. I’ve started following them all.

[seeyalater52]

Nov 16, 2023 19:00:45 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Nov 16, 2023 3:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

From what I saw the hospital was evacuated of patients. I'm not sure what the options are if Hamas is using hospitals as their headquarters or to store weapons. Hamas is a terror organization.

I was under the impression the hospital they were “touring” with the CNN reporter was a different one than Al Shifa. But their evidence of Hamas being headquartered there was silly.
-an ARMORY, of 4 guns…
-a motorcycle that was PROBABLY used in the attack on Oct 7
-a chair with a rope nearby which most likely held one of the hostages

Like there were not any other plausible explanations for the things they found. In a completely bombed out, abandoned area.

Big WMD energy. I cannot fucking believe we are all doing this again. It blows my mind that so many aren’t thinking critically about it EVEN with all the misinformation floating around. The logic is just not there to support even the skewed story of events.

[seeyalater52]

Nov 17, 2023 6:53:26 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Israeli forces are now raiding hospitals in the West Bank, where they have also been bombing. Remember when there was uproar over the accusation that the first hospital bombing was an Israeli strike? Now it’s just an accepted practice by world leaders? Are we rewriting international law on the fly to allow these atrocities?

www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/israeli-forces-raid-jenin-surround-hospitals-in-occupied-west-bank

We sure as shit are. It’s fine we just pardon ourselves and our friends and carry on as if this wouldn’t have been absolutely outrageous in any other context.

Yes, including in other wars. Including in pursuit of terrorists. Despite the dubiousness of our actions in other war on terror conflicts, the US did not vocally and proudly condone blatantly targeting hospitals and indiscriminately killing civilians to capture Osama Bin Laden, for example.

Anyone who can’t stop to think about why that is is absolutely part of the problem.

[fryjack2]

I can’t find it on the bbc website (I’m on my phone and haven’t looked super hard), but I keep seeing video of a bbc segment that basically calls bullshit on the IDF hospital video being anything remotely supporting their actions.

The BBC.

Hopefully more news sources will follow their lead and start to find their moral compass and journalistic integrity and call out the atrocity and genocide happening and share journalists questioning the logic of what the IDF continues to claim.

[sproctopus]

Nov 17, 2023 12:20:24 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I can’t find it on the bbc website (I’m on my phone and haven’t looked super hard), but I keep seeing video if a bbc segment thag basically calls bullshit on the IDF hospital video being anything remotely supporting their actions.

The BBC.

Hopefully more news sources will follow their lead and start to find their moral compass and journalistic integrity and call out the atrocity and genocide happening and share journalists questioning the logic of what the IDF continues to claim.

I saw it too. They show the walk-through they (BBC) did in the same areas of the IDF (just hours apart) as well as sharing discrepancies and editing in the video inconsistent with the message/propaganda from IDF. It was Ros Atkins in the BBC newsroom.

[turboteal]

I found this interview with a former Israeli soldier, now advocate against his government's occupying Palestinian territories, to be very eye opening. I did not have much knowledge about any of the Israel/Palestine conflict (like aside from the fact that it existed, and that illegal settlements were a thing) until very recently, so maybe others were already aware that some israeli settlers have been systematically harassing, intimidating, and violently attacking Palestinians in order to force them to move away from their homes, all with the help and protection of the Israeli military. Like, literally the military's policy in the occupied areas, according to the soldiers testifying with this group, was to make sure the Palestinians never felt safe and always knew they were under someone else's control, and to only protect the Jewish communities. I hope his advocacy group can have an impact in changing his government's policies and actions going forward.

www.npr.org/2023/11/14/1212836719/ex-idf-soldier-calls-for-international-intervention-to-stop-settler-violence

ETA: I mean, I guess this shouldn't be surprising, since police/military in the US have obviously been used to maintain and enforce the oppression of minority groups here. The "ACAB" phrase didn't come out of nowhere. 😞

[fryjack2]

Nov 18, 2023 2:08:22 GMT -5 turboteal said:

I found this interview with a former Israeli soldier, now advocate against his government's occupying Palestinian territories, to be very eye opening. I did not have much knowledge about any of the Israel/Palestine conflict (like aside from the fact that it existed, and that illegal settlements were a thing) until very recently, so maybe others were already aware that some israeli settlers have been systematically harassing, intimidating, and violently attacking Palestinians in order to force them to move away from their homes, all with the help and protection of the Israeli military. Like, literally the military's policy in the occupied areas, according to the soldiers testifying with this group, was to make sure the Palestinians never felt safe and always knew they were under someone else's control, and to only protect the Jewish communities. I hope his advocacy group can have an impact in changing his government's policies and actions going forward.

www.npr.org/2023/11/14/1212836719/ex-idf-soldier-calls-for-international-intervention-to-stop-settler-violence

ETA: I mean, I guess this shouldn't be surprising, since police/military in the US have obviously been used to maintain and enforce the oppression of minority groups here. The "ACAB" phrase didn't come out of nowhere. 😞

Bolding because this is so important and not well known.  

The Palestinian Film Festival had many great movies and shorts. Watch some of the video shorts (or any of the movies).  This one about rock climbing shares just how depressing and anger inducing something a simple as rock climbing is in the occupied territories.  ITs not focused on the occupation, but because they live under occupation, it impacts every facet of life-like getting to the rocks to even climb.



www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl8yATk2Cc 

[fryjack2]

4 day ceasefire!! Hallelujah! May this be the start of a permanent one. 50 hostages (women and children) in exchange for 150 Palestinian (women and children) prisoners. And the Red Cross can go evaluate the remaining hostages.

I'm nervous about Netanyahu saying the war will continue after the 4 day pause until all threats to Israel in Gaza are gone since he clearly thinks anything breathing in Gaza is a threat but I am cautiously optimistic that this may be the start to an end of this war!

www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-21/ty-article-live/hamas-haniyeh-we-are-close-to-truce-netanyahu-freeing-hostages-is-sacred-mission/0000018b-f003-d36e-a3cb-f05725160000?liveBlogItemId=1932142724#1932142724

[icedcoffee]

So thrilled for this news. I’ve been glued to the news all day waiti by for this. I had no idea the Red Cross evaluating hostages was a thing until today. Anyone know how that works?

Praying this is the start of peace.

[fryjack2]

Nov 21, 2023 20:34:52 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

So thrilled for this news. I’ve been glued to the news all day waiti by for this. I had no idea the Red Cross evaluating hostages was a thing until today. Anyone know how that works?

Praying this is the start of peace.

I think it’s to give assurance that they are not being harmed (physically) and are alive and in relatively good health.

[k3am]

50 kidnapped civilians for 150 prisoners. I am glad it is happening, but frustrated to see how the numbers work out, especially after so much of the world has criticized Israel for their response not being “proportional”.

I’m hoping that the majority of the hostages are still alive. Hamas has not allowed proof of life visits from the Red Cross and doesn’t even know where many of them are. There have been very few proof of live videos and many hostages confirmed to have died during captivity. Families aren’t even 100% sure their loved ones are in captivity as bodies were desecrated beyond any method of easy identification.

[pixy0stix]

Nov 22, 2023 9:09:52 GMT -5 k3am said:

50 kidnapped civilians for 150 prisoners. I am glad it is happening, but frustrated to see how the numbers work out, especially after so much of the world has criticized Israel for their response not being “proportional”.

I’m hoping that the majority of the hostages are still alive. Hamas has not allowed proof of life visits from the Red Cross and doesn’t even know where many of them are. There have been very few proof of live videos and many hostages confirmed to have died during captivity. Families aren’t even 100% sure their loved ones are in captivity as bodies were desecrated beyond any method of easy identification.

The 150 "prisoners" aren't prisoners in the traditional sense. A majority would be like you and I arrested during a protest. So they are also civilians.

Who Are the Palestinian Prisoners Who Could Be Released in a Hostage Deal? www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/world/hamas-prisoners-hostage-deal.html?unlocked_article_code=1.AU0.N2qC.yPNIXUTPUcox&smid=nytcore-android-share

[k3am]

And still 50 for 150. It’s better than none.

[pixy0stix]

Nov 22, 2023 9:39:58 GMT -5 k3am said:

And still 50 for 150. It’s better than none.

Is it, though? In a democracy you're supposed value being able to protest without being arrested/taken hostage. What the Israeli government did was kidnap women and teenagers off the streets, label them as prisoners (per your words and I'm sure that is probably how certain news sources are portraying it), and then offer them in exchange. All this after the same government has killed over 11,000 people (but probably more) about half of which are children.

apnews.com/article/palestinians-israel-health-ministry-gaza-hamas-fe30cbc76479fa437d5f5a0e96c36e52

It's fucked up.

[k3am]

I’m glad that a 10 month old baby, whose only sin was being born a Jew and an Israeli is going home with a sibling and his mother, but no father. That each of their lives is being traded for 3.

I don’t understand how that is not better than no hostages being released. I will bow out of this thread.

[pixy0stix]

Nov 22, 2023 10:43:00 GMT -5 k3am said:

I’m glad that a 10 month old baby, whose only sin was being born a Jew and an Israeli is going home with a sibling and his mother, but no father. That each of their lives is being traded for 3.

I don’t understand how that is not better than no hostages being released. I will bow out of this thread.

Because you started with the statement that the people being exchanged are prisoners. They are not. They are political hostages whose only crime was to be a Palestinian protesting the genocide of their people.

Am I glad the hostages are being released - yes.

In the same space I can hold the perspective of how fucked up this situation is.

[k3am]

And for the sake of discussion, I removed that. All reference to children, to women, to hostages, to civilians, to prisoners. I referenced 50 for 150, and said it is better than nothing. And you questioned if it really was better than nothing.

[fryjack2]

Nov 22, 2023 10:43:00 GMT -5 k3am said:

I’m glad that a 10 month old baby, whose only sin was being born a Jew and an Israeli is going home with a sibling and his mother, but no father. That each of their lives is being traded for 3.

I don’t understand how that is not better than no hostages being released. I will bow out of this thread.

I am glad they are, too. I wish all the hostages had all been released.

The vast majority of Palestinians held as prisoners have committed no crime. The 150 being released is a fraction of the number held and are made up of women and children. Children.

The number of Palestinian children killed since Oct 7th, whose only crime was being born Palestinian in Palestine is over 5000. The number orphaned is much higher.

The world should continue to criticize Israel for its response being disproportional because it is. I don’t know why you put “proportional” in quotes in your original response when what is happening is clearly anything but.

[k3am]

Nov 22, 2023 11:40:04 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Nov 22, 2023 10:43:00 GMT -5 k3am said:

I’m glad that a 10 month old baby, whose only sin was being born a Jew and an Israeli is going home with a sibling and his mother, but no father. That each of their lives is being traded for 3.

I don’t understand how that is not better than no hostages being released. I will bow out of this thread.

I am glad they are, too. I wish all the hostages had all been released.

The vast majority of Palestinians held as prisoners have committed no crime. The 150 being released is a fraction of the number held and are made up of women and children. Children.

The number of Palestinian children killed since Oct 7th, whose only crime was being born Palestinian in Palestine is over 5000. The number orphaned is much higher.

The world should continue to criticize Israel for its response being disproportional because it is. I don’t know why you put “proportional” in quotes in your original response when what is happening is clearly anything but.

Because it’s a vague term and I don’t know what people really mean when they say “proportional.” For hostage exchange, it seems an easy definition. 1=1. Beyond that, should Israel be counting exactly how many of their people suffered, be doing complex math, and limiting their response? There were X civilians killed, so let’s divide number of population and stop when we’ve hit exactly the right amount? What number would be deemed “proportional?” What response is acceptable? How do they know the line? Who decides what proportional is? There is no level of response Israel could have that people globally would say is acceptable.

It’s either too much or not enough. Its calls for ceasefire and intifada, and all the while Hamas goes on tv and says they will repeat Oct 7 until Jews are eliminated.

ETA: I guess my point is, there are calls for Israel’s response to be proportional where proportions are vague. But here, in this instance, where proportions are easy, they don’t get that same option.

[fryjack2]

Well if you are saying the hostage exchange number would seem to be 1:1, then I don’t know why the insanely disproportionate number of Palestinians killed is debatable.

Yes, I think the global community’s opinion, such as the UN, made up of the global community, should be considered when answering that.

And Netanyahu and Israeli leadership have gone on record and on international news to call for the same against Palestinian people.
Even in the 4 day halt, Netanyahu says it again when he says they will Continue on after the 4 days until every threat to Israel is gone from Palestine. And since he isn’t distinguishing between civilians, children, elderly, invalids, or Hamas when desecrating Gaza….

[fryjack2]

I will forever call for a ceasefire and in no way is that suggesting support of Hamas or a call to end Israel. That statement and idea being pushed around is disgusting and false. Stop saying it.

[pixy0stix]

Nov 22, 2023 11:54:18 GMT -5 k3am said:

Nov 22, 2023 11:40:04 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I am glad they are, too. I wish all the hostages had all been released.

The vast majority of Palestinians held as prisoners have committed no crime. The 150 being released is a fraction of the number held and are made up of women and children. Children.

The number of Palestinian children killed since Oct 7th, whose only crime was being born Palestinian in Palestine is over 5000. The number orphaned is much higher.

The world should continue to criticize Israel for its response being disproportional because it is. I don’t know why you put “proportional” in quotes in your original response when what is happening is clearly anything but.

Because it’s a vague term and I don’t know what people really mean when they say “proportional.” For hostage exchange, it seems an easy definition. 1=1. Beyond that, should Israel be counting exactly how many of their people suffered, be doing complex math, and limiting their response? There were X civilians killed, so let’s divide number of population and stop when we’ve hit exactly the right amount? What number would be deemed “proportional?” What response is acceptable? How do they know the line? Who decides what proportional is? There is no level of response Israel could have that people globally would say is acceptable.

It’s either too much or not enough. Its calls for ceasefire and intifada, and all the while Hamas goes on tv and says they will repeat Oct 7 until Jews are eliminated.

ETA: I guess my point is, there are calls for Israel’s response to be proportional where proportions are vague. But here, in this instance, where proportions are easy, they don’t get that same option.

In short, the Palestinians being exchanged shouldn't have been seized in the first place. Israel is kidnapping people. There is no justification for seizing innocent people to use as political pawns. (Which obviously applies to Hamas as well.)

[rikki]

Gilad Shalit is a clear example of something not proportional. 1 for 1,027 prisoners, many who were responsible for terror attacks and 600 deaths, was not reasonable in my opinion. I lived in Israel at the time of his kidnapping, and as awful as it was, it made Israel much less safe after and was responsible for further deaths.

1 for 3 women or children, who shouldn’t be imprisoned in the first place, is not disproportionate.

[AJL]

Nov 22, 2023 16:16:31 GMT -5 rikki said:

Gilad Shalit is a clear example of something not proportional. 1 for 1,027 prisoners, many who were responsible for terror attacks and 600 deaths, was not reasonable in my opinion. I lived in Israel at the time of his kidnapping, and as awful as it was, it made Israel much less safe after and was responsible for further deaths.

1 for 3 women or children, who shouldn’t be imprisoned in the first place, is not disproportionate.

Most of the detainees being returned are not women. There are 33 adult women on the list. The rest are mostly teenage boys (so, in that case, children). The hostages being returned are women and children. No male hostages are being returned.  www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/israel-hamas-deal-which-captives-palestinian-prisoners-could-be-freed

Most of the detainees are teen boys (and some younger) caught up in rioting and protests, but some of the women are being held on violent crimes, mostly stabbings. This isn't about innocent for innocent. I also bristle at the trope that Israel is this monster that snatches women and children off the streets. And, no one used that exact language in this thread, but a lot of the rhetoric against Israel leans in that direction.

Personal disclaimer (because I always feel as a Jew I have to give one): I want all the hostages returned to Israel. I want Israel to stop fire bombing Gaza. I want a peaceful solution to this situation. both current and for the future of the region. 

[pixy0stix]

We don't know who is going to be released yet on the Palestinian side.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/22/officials-list-300-palestinians-to-be-freed-under-hostage-deal

Per the Guardian:
All but four on the list of 300 are from the West Bank and Jerusalem. Israel refused to release anyone sentenced for murder; most are held for stone throwing, damaging property, having contact with “hostile” organisations, as well as more serious charges including attempted stabbings and making explosives.

[icedcoffee]

I am glued to the TV. So many prayers for the hostages from both sides for a peaceful transfer that might lead to more and a peaceful transfer to humanitarian aid to Gazans.

[wanderingback]

While this is great I can’t help but feeling continued despair since Netanyahu said will continue the fight full force after the 4 days and expects at least 2 more months of fighting.