bipolar disorder questions (example pg 3)

[underwaterrhymes]

Bipolar can look like this if someone is not properly medicated and is in a manic state, but it could also be schizophrenia or bipolar schizoaffective disorder. We are dealing with this with my sister right now and before she had her first manic episode in September, she was funny and brilliant and loving and talented. If you met her now, while she is still working towards the proper diagnosis and medication, you would likely find her tough to interact with and understand, and some of what she says is frightening, confusing, and hurtful.

Nothing you say will change his perspective. That must be handled by medical professionals and therapists who are familiar with his diagnosis. Neither religion nor friendship will help him without that first.

Given his history with threatening churches, though, I think you need to tread very carefully here. I don’t think you are equipped in any way to navigate this. Maybe try reaching out to NAMI for guidance.

ETA - An addendum to the above which is specific to someone who is NOT properly medicated or treated yet.

I also have several friends who are bipolar and well medicated and treated. They act like any other of my friends and not as you describe Kyle.

Proper medication and treatment is key, though.

[mommyatty]

I’m wondering if he’s autistic and that’s where the “it’s illegal to diagnose an adult with autism” comes from, because he disagrees with his diagnosis or has been told by a crappy therapist that it’s difficult to diagnose an adult with autism. But the info dumps that can’t be interrupted, the hyperfixation on certain topics (including the Bible and getting a girlfriend), the social awkwardness, the rejection sensitivity dysphoria, the loneliness… those all sound like a very lost autistic adult who likely has co-morbidities like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and whose meds are clearly not working.

Someone with bipolar disorder whose disease is well-controlled with meds is nothing like you describe. This is way more than that.

[al dente]

Dec 15, 2023 15:38:35 GMT -5 waverly said:

Since churches do some kinds of counseling then presumably there is some training.

Typically, no there is no mental health training whatsoever. Just all bible based beliefs which can be very problematic.

OP you all are in over your depth. This is not something for a church to fix other then encouraging him to get help from licensed mental health professionals.

[sakoro]

My close friend has bipolar disorder. It is difficult to manage even if the person is taking their medication as prescribed. It is difficult to find a psychiatrist who is a good fit, get access to psychiatrists (especially if you’re on medi-caid), and find the right mix of medications that keep you in balanced moods — not too energized or depressed.

It sounds like this guy might be headed into a manic episode. They are argumentative, don’t listen to others’ opinions and have outsized (almost illogical) egos and ambitions. For example, when my friend is manic she often starts applying to Ivy League law schools and talks about starting a new company. Nothing you can do except let their family know about your concerns and hope they take the person to their medical provider.

[underwaterrhymes]

Also, I just want to say the state of mental health care in the US is abysmal and it makes me so sad because it doesn’t have to be this way. Loving someone with a mental illness is so hard and it’s even harder for the person who has it.

[kiminky]

Dec 15, 2023 15:31:43 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

Dec 15, 2023 15:25:28 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

Re-reading this part:

“ It's sad to think that this might be the best version of Kyle there can be. We don't know how to balance being patient with correction, or which behaviors to focus on and which to let go.”

I think you might be a little over your skis. Has he asked you for this? You’re a church group, not doctors, therapists, or behavioral scientists.

I know that he's unhappy with the person he is and his life situation. He has said he wants to be a different person. He does have a medical team but I don't know how often he meets with them. 

He DOES have a medical team and the various church group and men discipleship sessions are not part of that team or protocol.

Church can be for a lot of things, where you all are trying to go with this is not one of them.

[lust2hart]

Dec 15, 2023 17:13:59 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I think you need to unblur the lines between mental health treatment and church.

Think about what exactly the church is capable of providing and do that. Not what you think he needs, but what you are trained and capable of providing. Then boundaries and redirection to everything else, "that seems like a great question to ask your MH team." " you should ask your psychiatrist about that" " that's beyond my paygrade" "no, we can't do that."

Thanks for this. I do think some of the guys have gotten in pretty deep and this would be a great way to zoom out a little and help them refocus on what they can and cannot do for Kyle.

My question is really more along the lines of - when he’s getting a ride home and for literally 20 minutes straight he’s talking about how much his life sucks because he doesn’t have a girlfriend - what do we do? That’s a long time to listen to someone complaining. And he does this multiple times a week. It’s not like he just needs to get a vent off of his chest. It is constant. If we say nothing, he just keeps going. He literally will not stop. If we encourage him to shift his mindset, that works for a couple of minutes and then it’s right back to the rant. If we try to be more direct and say, “Please stop complaining,” he’ll go sullen and then twist it in his mind that we don’t want him to talk at all anymore. We are just really at a loss as to how communicate with him in a way that he won’t misunderstand or twist into the worst interpretation.

[tacokick]

Dec 15, 2023 20:28:33 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

My question is really more along the lines of - when he’s getting a ride home and for literally 20 minutes straight he’s talking about how much his life sucks because he doesn’t have a girlfriend - what do we do? That’s a long time to listen to someone complaining. If we say nothing, he just keeps going. He literally will not stop. If we encourage him to shift his mindset, that works for a couple of minutes and then it’s right back to the rant. If we try to be more direct and say, “Please stop complaining,” he’ll go sullen and then twist it in his mind that we don’t want him to talk at all anymore. We are just really at a loss as to how communicate with him in a way that he won’t misunderstand or twist into the worst interpretation.

It sounds harsh but maybe people just need to stop giving him rides. It doesn’t seem like it’s helping anyone here. Is there a car service he could use or the church could help him use? A bus? Or maybe he would just stop attending.

Why is he coming to your church from so far away if he doesn’t have transportation? Is it because he isn’t allowed because of the threats and whatever lead to his imprisonment?

[shopgirl07]

Just make neutral statements. Like, “I’m sorry to hear that”, “that sounds tough”, “sorry you feel that way”. And then change the subject.

Also, reconsider giving him rides or being alone with him. He’s been to PRISON for threatening behavior. It’s actually not that easy to serve time for threats, so it must have been fairly serious.

[TR]

Dec 15, 2023 20:28:33 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

Dec 15, 2023 17:13:59 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I think you need to unblur the lines between mental health treatment and church.

Think about what exactly the church is capable of providing and do that. Not what you think he needs, but what you are trained and capable of providing. Then boundaries and redirection to everything else, "that seems like a great question to ask your MH team." " you should ask your psychiatrist about that" " that's beyond my paygrade" "no, we can't do that."

Thanks for this. I do think some of the guys have gotten in pretty deep and this would be a great way to zoom out a little and help them refocus on what they can and cannot do for Kyle.

My question is really more along the lines of - when he’s getting a ride home and for literally 20 minutes straight he’s talking about how much his life sucks because he doesn’t have a girlfriend - what do we do? That’s a long time to listen to someone complaining. And he does this multiple times a week. It’s not like he just needs to get a vent off of his chest. It is constant. If we say nothing, he just keeps going. He literally will not stop. If we encourage him to shift his mindset, that works for a couple of minutes and then it’s right back to the rant. If we try to be more direct and say, “Please stop complaining,” he’ll go sullen and then twist it in his mind that we don’t want him to talk at all anymore. We are just really at a loss as to how communicate with him in a way that he won’t misunderstand or twist into the worst interpretation.

You can’t control how he interprets your words or actions. You decide what behavior you’re willing to accept and tell him if he’s going to complain the whole way, he needs to find another ride. Or just let him talk and don’t engage with him on that topic.

[gummy]

I think I'm usually a pretty chill person, but am I the only one that would be looking up the details to his felony? Considering the whole picture of his past. In our area criminal court cases are public info, and easily obtained with first and last name on the courts website.

[underwaterrhymes]

What you’re describing sounds like a fixation or obsessive thinking. There is nothing that anyone can say that will change that for him. He doesn’t have the conscious ability to control it. It’s what his brain is telling him is true. I read “I am not sick. I don’t need help” by Xavier Amador and it has helped me a lot with what I do and don’t have the ability to control when I’m communicating with my sister.

[wanderingback]

Dec 15, 2023 20:28:33 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

Dec 15, 2023 17:13:59 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I think you need to unblur the lines between mental health treatment and church.

Think about what exactly the church is capable of providing and do that. Not what you think he needs, but what you are trained and capable of providing. Then boundaries and redirection to everything else, "that seems like a great question to ask your MH team." " you should ask your psychiatrist about that" " that's beyond my paygrade" "no, we can't do that."

Thanks for this. I do think some of the guys have gotten in pretty deep and this would be a great way to zoom out a little and help them refocus on what they can and cannot do for Kyle.

My question is really more along the lines of - when he’s getting a ride home and for literally 20 minutes straight he’s talking about how much his life sucks because he doesn’t have a girlfriend - what do we do? That’s a long time to listen to someone complaining. And he does this multiple times a week. It’s not like he just needs to get a vent off of his chest. It is constant. If we say nothing, he just keeps going. He literally will not stop. If we encourage him to shift his mindset, that works for a couple of minutes and then it’s right back to the rant. If we try to be more direct and say, “Please stop complaining,” he’ll go sullen and then twist it in his mind that we don’t want him to talk at all anymore. We are just really at a loss as to how communicate with him in a way that he won’t misunderstand or twist into the worst interpretation.

You just smile and nod.
Like I said above my partners dad is like this.
He met my mom for the first time a couple of months ago and he literally said hi to her and then started going on a long ass history lesson complaining about the relationship between some African country and the UK. He lives in another country so we only see him a couple times a year but it’s usually for hours at time and we just politely nod/ignore/start talking about other things.

20 minutes isn’t that long to just go yep yep, ok.
Or just not giving him a ride is totally fine as well.
You really cannot communicate with this person in a rationale way based on what you’ve shared so I would just get that thought out your mind. You can’t fix him, you can’t change the way he thinks, you can’t change his personality, you can’t change his interpretation of what he thinks you say, etc.

[basilosaurus]

Do you have public transportation? Give him a bus card and let him rant to total strangers. In many places it's free or reduced to those receiving social services.

I'd also be looking seriously into the background history. There's no such thing as a "silly" felony for which you serve time.

[sadlebred]

If he has been arrested and spent time for a felony, this guy has more going on than a mental health issue. It NO WAY would I be offering my DH to be one on one with him, especially for a car ride. Can the group stop offering rides and suggest he take public transportation. That alone would cut down on the time spent with the groups and the disruptions.

[sonrisa]

You (and your group) aren't going to fix this. However, you can make things worse (for him and for the rest of you).

Decide if you want him in your group and in your lives exactly as he is now. Set your boundaries accordingly.

[lilac05]

Dec 15, 2023 15:58:42 GMT -5 loira said:

Why are you trying to fix this guy? Leave whatever help he needs to the professionals.

As a former coordinator/director of a small groups ministry at a church, I can say you’d probably be shocked by the number of people who come to groups wanting to be fixed. They’re looking for people who seem like they have it all together to help them find their way, too. “You are the company that you keep” and all. (Plus the incredibly toxic and damaging theology that some churches spew just fuels that.) Sometimes it’s that they haven’t been able to get the desired results from their healthcare professionals, so they go somewhere else looking for any support they can get (enter rant about mental healthcare in the United States).

As a director, we did lead/participate in some mental health trainings that were not just religious platitudes or garbage. It was stuff that I would find that wasn’t “pray it away” and helped our leaders know when they could be supportive and when they needed to set firm boundaries. This would be a time that I would have really encouraged the leaders to set very firm boundaries, change the subject, choose topics of discussions very carefully (including chit chat), possibly have a group meeting without the guy to make sure everyone in the group is on the same page. And as a last resort, we did tell one person once that small groups weren’t a good fit for them at that time, but we had a pastor who was also a practicing psychologist who would be available to meet with him for counseling or care. That sucked…but it was truly the best way to support that person AND protect the health of the group as a whole.

[ellipses84]

The paragraph where you said it’s exhausting perfectly describes what it was like dealing with a bipolar relative when they were NOT medicated. When they were medicated they would occasionally say something odd / not socially acceptable but it was a drastic difference. I wonder if there are other issues that aren’t being treated or if he’s not on the best meds/ dosage. The obsessing one sided convos are common symptoms of bipolar and autism.

I think the only thing you can do is set boundaries and encourage him to seek more treatment from medical / mental health professionals. You can come from a place of caring and say we want the best for you and think you would benefit from taking there actions. I think more interference could cause more damage your group is not trained for and I’d want more info on the felony. If you feel he is still not a danger, the support the group could provide would be taking him to appts while letting him rant (just acknowledge it, you don’t have to give advice or say much back).

[gretchenindisguise]

Dec 15, 2023 20:28:33 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

Dec 15, 2023 17:13:59 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I think you need to unblur the lines between mental health treatment and church.

Think about what exactly the church is capable of providing and do that. Not what you think he needs, but what you are trained and capable of providing. Then boundaries and redirection to everything else, "that seems like a great question to ask your MH team." " you should ask your psychiatrist about that" " that's beyond my paygrade" "no, we can't do that."

Thanks for this. I do think some of the guys have gotten in pretty deep and this would be a great way to zoom out a little and help them refocus on what they can and cannot do for Kyle.

My question is really more along the lines of - when he’s getting a ride home and for literally 20 minutes straight he’s talking about how much his life sucks because he doesn’t have a girlfriend - what do we do? That’s a long time to listen to someone complaining. And he does this multiple times a week. It’s not like he just needs to get a vent off of his chest. It is constant. If we say nothing, he just keeps going. He literally will not stop. If we encourage him to shift his mindset, that works for a couple of minutes and then it’s right back to the rant. If we try to be more direct and say, “Please stop complaining,” he’ll go sullen and then twist it in his mind that we don’t want him to talk at all anymore. We are just really at a loss as to how communicate with him in a way that he won’t misunderstand or twist into the worst interpretation.

A 20 minute car ride is not neverending. It's 20 minutes of "uh huh." "That must be hardl" "I'm sorry you're feeling that way" "it must be hard to feel that way" "ooh look, those Christmas lights are pretty"

[tacokick]

I’m puzzled by the just smile and nod/ignore the rants answers. This isn’t someone’s dotty granny who is lonely and needs a friend.

The man went to prison on a felony charge for threats he made involving a church. He’s been asked to leave other churches. Now he’s unable and/or unwilling to stop complaining and ranting when getting favors from people at new church. When asked to stop ranting or change the subject he turns it around to say he’s being left out, people don’t like him, he demands to go to activities that don’t involve him or aren’t appropriate etc.

A 20 minute ride with this person twice in one day (!) multiple days a week is a lot. He’s not related to anyone involved, this isn’t a once a year situation. This is going on for hours and hours every week. You’ve given it four months already. It’s not tenable.

Lie and say it’s some new church policy and stop all carpooling within the group if you have to. Giving him bus or ride share info will seem helpful and maybe soften the blow but hopefully won’t actually be something he can take advantage of. Maybe if it isn’t easy to come to the meetings or if he knows he can get a ride but it won’t be with a captive audience church member he will stop coming and it will resolve itself.

It would be a blessing to everyone to redirect him to some services that perhaps can help him because clearly what’s going on here isn’t working for him or anyone else. No one involved in this group can give him what he wants and needs. You don’t have to formally kick him out but he’s really become a focus of so many people’s lives. That isn’t healthy for anyone, including him, and I can’t see it improving without some drastic measures and boundary setting that everyone needs to buy into. I would not bet on him meeting you anywhere near halfway so it won’t be easy.

I’d look into why exactly he went to prison and I’d be prepared with a response if his behavior were to escalate. I would not encourage one-on-one time with him at all, especially in situations where you cannot easily escape.

His rants sound strange and alarming but I do believe that everyone at his work hates him and wants him fired.

ETA: To be clear, I don’t think everyone who is a felon is dangerous but this guy doesn’t seem to be changing his behavior and after months of help and correction from your group is still stuck ranting and raving. That isn’t the behavior of someone who has turned over a new leaf and is making a real effort to find community and he’s told you he’s escalated his behavior in the past. I’d take it seriously. It’s clear in your OP that you are worried about it escalating.

[wise_rita]

Dec 15, 2023 19:10:22 GMT -5 sakoro said:

Nothing you can do except let their family know about your concerns and hope they take the person to their medical provider.

OP said he "has been abandoned by his family", which I imagine is a whole other story that is entirely 1-sided.

100% to whoever said to look up his record.

[basilosaurus]

Dec 16, 2023 5:05:47 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Dec 15, 2023 19:10:22 GMT -5 sakoro said:

Nothing you can do except let their family know about your concerns and hope they take the person to their medical provider.

OP said he "has been abandoned by his family", which I imagine is a whole other story that is entirely 1-sided.

100% to whoever said to look up his record.

I don't doubt he may have zero contact with family. They could be assholes, or they could have set boundaries and enforced them. My money is on the latter.

[wanderingback]

I agree that ultimately they should tell this person to kick rocks and not offer him a ride and kick him out the group if they don’t like him and he’s not a good fit. But OP came here wanting to help him, so the kick him out advice doesn’t seem like it’s the route wanting to go. I’m not going to go back and read the post again but I don’t think I read that he had threatened the church or people in the groups, obviously if he has been threatening or a concerns about safety then yes I think should have zero tolerance for that

[yourmother]

Regardless of what Kyle’s official diagnosis is, he’s not a good fit for this group. His needs are too great for what you or any church support group can provide.

This is easier said than done, but my suggestion is to as a group, start by putting up boundaries like no more rides to and from. When he interrupts the group discussion , redirect quickly. When you have one on ones, only keep the subject to the Bible studies. Do not engage in arguing, but be assertive when he misinterprets it into something not relevant and get back to the study.

When all these boundaries are in place by the entire group and things go south, you can tell yourselves you did your best. Next would be to ask him to leave the church studies because you’re not a good fit for Kyle and he’s not a good fit for the group. Make sure there are witnesses when this happens so that you’ll have safety in numbers.

It’s ok to tell Kyle he’s no longer welcome. You’ll have to consider the group’s health and needs too. Kyle is an obvious distraction and the group is suffering as a whole. He has a pattern and unfortunately, it’s not going to change.

[georgeglass]

You clearly have good intentions, but you are all out of your depth. If it were me, I would find out the last church and talk to someone there about what happened and then figure out how to protect yourselves.

[wesleycrusher]

One thing I havent seen asked is- where is church leadership in this?

They should be the ones managing the congregation and overseeing small group activities- it shouldn't be dumped on the group members or individual church members to manage this without input from someone higher up.

[pixy0stix]

I have several thoughts:

I agree with whoever said that you have to meet him where he's at if you want to continue to have him in your group.

It's really easy to manipulate church groups because people are trying to act in a manner that they think the church would want them to, even if it goes against what you typically would do outside of a church setting. Which is why he's being drawn to church groups, as he knows people will interact with him where they normally wouldn't. On some level he probably does know that his mental state is not being properly managed.

I'm also struggling with the whole organized church aspect of the story, as that seems really weird to me too. Like the 1:1 being coached how to interpret the bible based on how the church sees things is a bit too "conform or else" for me. Related to my above point, churches probably aren't this person's best aspect of human contact even if they're his only "sure thing" for having people interact with him because they're not going to give him what he needs without expecting some sort of conformity from him.

So, all in all, those are my two cents without giving any actual advice.

[starburst604]

Dec 16, 2023 9:35:45 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

You clearly have good intentions, but you are all out of your depth. If it were me, I would find out the last church and talk to someone there about what happened and then figure out how to protect yourselves.

Yes this. I also get a strong feeling that the crimes he’s committed against former churches took place when he was finally asked to leave.

[basilosaurus]

Not that I actually think this is a great idea as I have serious issues with Christian counselors, but maybe recommending one you trust would maybe let him hear what he needs to. It's a long shot, but it might give you some time for further plan and possibly protection

[gemini79]

Your church group leadership needs to meet and have a serious discussion about its purpose and identified meaning and objectives because you seem to be in the weeds and you have a member who doesn't meet the group.

So it's your responsibility to refer him to places that DO meet his needs and not all of them would be faith based.

Here's a really simple example: at the counseling center I work at, we run an anger and stress group and a grief and loss group: if a client showed up to anger and stress, but they were constantly talking about the loss of their parent, I wouldn't spin my wheels trying to give them anger and stress tools, I'd refer them to the Grief group.


Also to be frank: it sounds like absolutely none of you are qualified to deal with him and neither is the group and you are borderline being unethical in continuing to work with him.