Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
If you're truly dealing with someone neurodivergent, no I wouldn't think that at all. Their brains are making different connections than yours.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
I just have low level anxiety and your DH’s follow up would cause me to fleetingly think I would be disinvited or something would happen. I guess it’s hard to explain anxiety, or other neuro divergence, to those who don’t experience it, but it’s not a thought of “he’s lying!”. It’s a different type of “everything goes wrong and people don’t like me thus there is no way this invitation is real” type thinking.
Like the original assertion that people are to bring a dish if they are able, but with the strong mindset that everyone should be able to bring something. If there truly was a mindset that no one cares if you bring anything, it wouldn't be in the OP.
Yes this has also bother me from the original post. He was told everyone is expected to bring a dish, and he said he can't bring one so won't be coming. I feel like that's not a wild leap to be making? Esp as someone new and having been specifically told that's the expectation.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
No, I would not think he was implying that your husband is lying. I co-chair a volunteer group alongside a neurodiverse adult. She often asks for information in a way that is off-putting or makes me feel she is judging me. I have to push past my feelings and realize there is no ulterior motive, she is literally seeking information, as Kyle is in this case.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
But you know he has some kind of mental health problem, so why would you jump to him thinking you all were lying. Obviously he’s not a child but maybe think of it that way? His brain doesn’t work the same and it’s not a personal attack when he questions things. Plus, I’m still confused what needed to be talked about tomorrow. I have zero anxiety and I would be very confused by that and would probably ask something back as well.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Dec 17, 2023 15:55:26 GMT -5
lust2hart - *poof* Mental illness is hard. Kyle is not deliberately trying to be problematic or confusing or frustrating. His brain is telling him that he cannot trust people, even people who are trying to show kindness. His brain does not work the way yours does and to expect him to respond in ways that make sense to you is futile.
Post by wanderingback on Dec 17, 2023 16:09:41 GMT -5
This is somewhat of a tangent but I was a psychology major in college and then worked for a few years in mental health then decided to go back to med school. I was considering psychiatry. My psychiatry rotation during med school was so so sad to me. Worse than surgical oncology or inpatient medicine where people were dying. When the brain doesn’t work correctly it can be very sad, in my opinion. It did make it when people improved so much more rewarding but there were plenty of people who struggled to have improvements.
Think of it as him having no legs and no prostheses. You wouldn’t expect him to function the same as someone with 2 legs and would need accommodations.
underwaterrhymes - I really appreciate your perspective in this thread. I am bipolar I, and I often wonder what impact I have on others. It's so clear to me how much you love your sister, and I'm grateful that you're willing to share your side of the story. I truly hope she finds her balance.
I struggle with paranoia every.damn.day. What pp have said about neurodivergent brains working differently is spot on. I'm constantly asking myself if what I'm thinking is true or realistic. I learned early on that survival meant masking my symptoms, and I very rarely let the mask slip. It still blows my mind that most people experience life in a completely different way.
Men like Kyle don't have the same pressure to 'behave/be nice' that women do. So I guess I'll echo the advice of others in this thread: clear, concise boundaries.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Dec 17, 2023 16:21:16 GMT -5
SwimDeep - thank you for saying that. ❤️ I love her more than I can say and I miss having a relationship with her. (She has asked for us to respect her boundaries and I’m trying to do that.) I’m really hoping she finds stability and joy again soon. I really appreciate you weighing in with your experience, too.
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
So I have a question: what made you choose this example of behavior as an indicator of what you and..I guess others in your church leadership are marking as "bipolar?"
Because...him asking a clarifying question after your husband sent a confusing text...isn't "bipolar" and it's not even a person being difficult. A bunch of people told you YOUR HUSBAND was being confusing!
I'm going to point out that in your first post you confused bipolar with borderline personality disorder.
There is conjecture in this post that this man is having a manic episode, when there is like..no reason to go there.
This member of your church self disclosed his diagnosis and his previous charges and now..the confirmation bias is in play and you are operating off beliefs you have about mental illness and specifically bipolar disorder, and you are attributing a lot of his responses or behaviors to that, and your beliefs about mental illness when it could be a lot of other factors.
I get you are asking here...why not call your local counseling center and set up a professional development to learn about working with multiple types of people in your community? Or learning signs of mental illness? That way you get facts that challenge your beliefs and community resources and referrals for your flock.
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
So I have a question: what made you choose this example of behavior as an indicator of what you and..I guess others in your church leadership are marking as "bipolar?"
Because...him asking a clarifying question after your husband sent a confusing text...isn't "bipolar" and it's not even a person being difficult. A bunch of people told you YOUR HUSBAND was being confusing!
I'm going to point out that in your first post you confused bipolar with borderline personality disorder.
There is conjecture in this post that this man is having a manic episode, when there is like..no reason to go there.
This member of your church self disclosed his diagnosis and his previous charges and now..the confirmation bias is in play and you are operating off beliefs you have about mental illness and specifically bipolar disorder, and you are attributing a lot of his responses or behaviors to that, and your beliefs about mental illness when it could be a lot of other factors.
I get you are asking here...why not call your local counseling center and set up a professional development to learn about working with multiple types of people in your community? Or learning signs of mental illness? That way you get facts that challenge your beliefs and community resources and referrals for your flock.
My question is IF the behaviors I listed are common to people with bipolar disorder. I'm not saying, "He's bipolar so he's doing XYZ;" I'm asking, "He's doing XYZ, is that due to his disorder?"
When Kyle says he doesn't think anyone else from our small group will come to the Christmas party that is happening on Christmas Day because he will be there, do I let that go? Do I try to reason with him that, "Most of our group is not from this town, so they will be going back home to visit family. The fact that they won't be there has nothing to do with you." ?
I'm trying to learn how I can approach these situations so that it's not-so-hard for both of us.
And yes, I can call the local counseling center. I probably will. It's also nice to hear from a wider community.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
But don't you think that saying "yes, let's talk more about it" is also kind of strange on your H's part? Especially when included as part of the answer to someone asking if he can come? It makes it sound like yes is not the complete story because there's something else that needs to be discussed.
Yes that part is SO weird! Either say “Yes, we’ll text out more details when we finalized them at a later date.” Or “Of course!” But adding in something about let’s talk beforehand makes it sound ominous and like your H has something he needs to speak to him in private before he's allowed to come.
I also am super curious as to whether the pastors in your church were aware of his past, or if this is something that has come out since he’s been apart of your group. If your pastors aren’t aware of his past situation, you need to let them know ASAP. If they are aware, well, that makes me question their judgement as leaders.
Well, since you're asking - questioning scripture interpretations is not a symptom of neurodivergence. As someone whose formative religious years was spent around 6+ retired pastors, and several practicing pastors of various denominations getting together to talk, it's on the weird end for me to hear of people deferring and accepting one interpretation because someone went to seminary school. As is one on one coaching on how to think regarding scripture. Those ladies and men would go at it for hours, and never once shot down ideas, nor defer because someone had more supposed education.
I work with people experiencing homelessness and a lot of those people are dealing with mental illness, and a few of those people have conditions that are so severe that we are not the right place for them. It is our job to recognize when we are over our heads and make a plan for those people to get connected with other spaces before they end up losing access to ours. Based on the threats to other churches,, because you are not mental health service providers, you can say this is not best fit for any of us and get the church administration to work on a warm handoff to other services. I’d urge you to do this before things get worse. It’s clear that you all are over your head.
So I have a question: what made you choose this example of behavior as an indicator of what you and..I guess others in your church leadership are marking as "bipolar?"
Because...him asking a clarifying question after your husband sent a confusing text...isn't "bipolar" and it's not even a person being difficult. A bunch of people told you YOUR HUSBAND was being confusing!
I'm going to point out that in your first post you confused bipolar with borderline personality disorder.
There is conjecture in this post that this man is having a manic episode, when there is like..no reason to go there.
This member of your church self disclosed his diagnosis and his previous charges and now..the confirmation bias is in play and you are operating off beliefs you have about mental illness and specifically bipolar disorder, and you are attributing a lot of his responses or behaviors to that, and your beliefs about mental illness when it could be a lot of other factors.
I get you are asking here...why not call your local counseling center and set up a professional development to learn about working with multiple types of people in your community? Or learning signs of mental illness? That way you get facts that challenge your beliefs and community resources and referrals for your flock.
When Kyle says he doesn't think anyone else from our small group will come to the Christmas party that is happening on Christmas Day because he will be there, do I let that go? Do I try to reason with him that, "Most of our group is not from this town, so they will be going back home to visit family. The fact that they won't be there has nothing to do with you." ?.
Yes, you let it go. “We’re looking forward to seeing you!” and keep it moving.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
But don't you think that saying "yes, let's talk more about it" is also kind of strange on your H's part? Especially when included as part of the answer to someone asking if he can come? It makes it sound like yes is not the complete story because there's something else that needs to be discussed.
This! I'm legitimately confused/curious as to what your H was planning to talk to him about tomorrow, and this situation has literally nothing to do with me. If I were Kyle, I would definitely be like, "wtf is this weird response? What does he need to tell me tomorrow and why is he just not telling me now?"
When Kyle says he doesn't think anyone else from our small group will come to the Christmas party that is happening on Christmas Day because he will be there, do I let that go? Do I try to reason with him that, "Most of our group is not from this town, so they will be going back home to visit family. The fact that they won't be there has nothing to do with you." ?.
Yes, you let it go. “We’re looking forward to seeing you!” and keep it moving.
Agreed. If you want to, you can certainly keep repeating things like your suggested response. But if having to do that is getting frustrating, moving on is also fine. The nature of mental illness is that what you say is unlikely to fundamentally change the way he thinks about situations like this.
My question is IF the behaviors I listed are common to people with bipolar disorder. I'm not saying, "He's bipolar so he's doing XYZ;" I'm asking, "He's doing XYZ, is that due to his disorder?"
When Kyle says he doesn't think anyone else from our small group will come to the Christmas party that is happening on Christmas Day because he will be there, do I let that go? Do I try to reason with him that, "Most of our group is not from this town, so they will be going back home to visit family. The fact that they won't be there has nothing to do with you." ?
I'm trying to learn how I can approach these situations so that it's not-so-hard for both of us.
And yes, I can call the local counseling center. I probably will. It's also nice to hear from a wider community.
Do not argue or reason with him. It will not work. He will think you're lying. You just say "I'm sorry you feel that way, I hope you still come to the party." Or similar, maybe someone has a better script.
I think you need to do some reading about neurodivergence, bipolar disorder and rejection sensitivity. I don't have any resources to suggest, unfortunately, but hopefully someone else does.
Post by sofamonkey on Dec 17, 2023 21:11:45 GMT -5
Honestly? You’re working yourself up over every single detail. And you’re now coming across as kind of an ass.
Please re-read your contributions to these encounters, including by being loaded with borrowed trouble and snappy comebacks for a guy just trying to get through his days. You’ve been given some good advice. Step back, both in real life and in this thread. Reevaluate things, and go from there. You’ve gotten really good feedback, that I encourage you to take.
I’ll also say that admitting you and your H have handled things not the best, and regrouping and readjusting yourselves is a GOOD thing, not a bad one. I get wanting to have your H’a back, but helping him also grow is also having his back.
This is an extremely difficult situation, and I really applaud you being open to this group about it. That is very brave. I hope you make your next steps well. ❤️
Re: what my DH was going to talk about - There were logistics to be worked out and it was easier to do it in person. I do see how he could have worded his original response better - instead of just saying “Let’s talk tomorrow” he could have specified it was about logistics.
I would also urge you not to take the advice and investigate his possible crimes. I’m the end in none of your business, and it’s not going to help the situation at all. You need to evaluate if you feel safe and if you don’t then you figure out how to remove him or ultimately yourself from the group.
Post by basilosaurus on Dec 17, 2023 21:40:06 GMT -5
"Yes, I'll provide more details tomorrow" is different from "we'll talk about this tomorrow". I feel like I'm repeating what everyone else has said, and you're no longer taking advice and just digging in that you're doing the lord's work so why isn't it working?
This thread just keeps getting weirder.
For me it went from wtf, keep everyone safe from this unstable felon, even though it might not be his fault, get him help and leave off to wtf, of course people will interpret this way. Why are you being so weird with your texts?
I do not judge nor blame because things can devolve when you're in it, but step back and realize no one is helping anyone right now.
I agree strong boundaries are needed, especially surrounding how much time he can talk in the group so that he's not monopolizing the time together. The history of being asked to leave other churches and being arrested worry me. I also think he should be meeting with a pastor one on one, not group members. Pastors should theoretically be trained in how to handle but many pastors have very limited training and should absolutely be referring him to professionals.
I imagine what has likely happened at other churches is people have said they were going to leave a small group/class they were in because he made them uncomfortable or was monopolizing class/group time or he said or did something that crossed the line. Maybe the pastor asked him to leave or he took the hint that he wasn't wanted there and left on his own. I don't like that he's joking about the jail time.
Ultimately whatever his diagnosis may or may not be the safety of everyone in the group is most important. And your group may need to have a discussion as a group to re-iterate group expectations just like a teacher would have in a classroom. I.E. what is said in the group stays in the group, be mindful to let everyone have a chance to speak, stay on topic, etc.
Also I think it's likely inevitable that you are going to lose group members if he continues unchecked. But he literally may not be able to control these behaviors especially if he lacks the awareness that he is talking too much, straying from the topic at hand, etc. He may suffer from scrupulosity which is an obsession/fixation on religious beliefs. May be part of why he bounces from church to church. Reciting scripture can be a sign of scrupulosity. It's a type of OCD. I've seen it in churches/religious groups before. Maybe that's not part of what's going on but it's something that came to mind. And it's best treated by a therapist trained in this area.