DH and I, and another guy, co-lead a small group in our church. Early this fall a new guy named Kyle started coming to our church and our small group, and man, we are struggling.
At first we thought Kyle was just really socially awkward, but now we know he has diagnosed bipolar disorder and gets a monthly shot to manage it. I know he sees a psychiatrist and has a case worker through the county mental health clinic as well. I'm not sure I can make a coherent story, so I think I'm just going to describe some of his behaviors because I know nothing about bipolar and don't know how much of his behavior can be attributed to that or not, and how to respond to it.
Kyle goes to our group and another small group. He spends quite a bit of 1:1 time with various men in our church, even if it's just for car rides - he can't drive, so someone takes him to and from church and small groups each week. He is receiving a lot of coaching and it seems like absolutely nothing is sticking. Granted, it's only been 4 months at most.
What do I mean by coaching? As an example, he sees the worst in every situation and will often make up worst case scenarios, and the men are trying to coach him on, "Is there another way to interpret this situation? Does the way that you're currently viewing it really make sense?" - He is convinced everyone at his work hates him and is actively trying to get him fired. - When he started going to our group, DH said it's a potluck and we expect everyone to contribute something each week if they can. The next day, in response to a group text I sent out about the menu, Kyle said, "I don't have anything I could bring so I won't be coming." - When he heard that Friend A's parents were in town to celebrate Friend B's graduation, and they took Friend B out to lunch with their family, he was quite put out that they didn't take him along. Mind you, he has never met Friend A's parents.
He has an obsessive personality and poor impulse control. He will fixate on a topic and that topic dominates any conversation until he finds a new one. For a while it was that he wants to move to Japan. Then it was that he wants to go to seminary. But always and above all is that he wants to be married. For the past couple of weeks this has been at the forefront of every interaction. He is convinced that having a girlfriend will make his life better - possibly even solve all of his problems. And he simply refuses to believe anyone who says that's not how it works. He just rants and rants - people have to interrupt him to be able to say anything and he'll just pick right back up in his train of thought, like he didn't even hear them. It's not a conversation, it's just him unloading. And he does it with all the guys, so he's repeating this same stuff multiple times as week as he meets with one person on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Thursday... And they will all say the same thing and he flat out ignores it over and over again.
He'll quote Scripture to justify his position - which of course, lots of people do that, but man, does he have some truly bizarre "understandings" of the Bible. 3 of the 4 guys he meets with have advanced seminary degrees and they'll tell him when he's interpreting things incorrectly. On good days he'll just go silent; on bad days he'll say that he reads the Bible more than anyone else and he knows his opinion is right based on his feelings.
It's exhausting. To have the same conversations over and over again. To have to constantly reassure him that no, people are not out to get you. To try to engage when he says totally bizarre things - like he won't move to a certain city near us because "it has an abnormally high number of dog attacks." Or that it is illegal in our state for doctors to diagnose adults with autism.
And I do feel for him. He has been abandoned by his family. He's incredibly lonely. I don't know what friends he has outside of the church environment, and I wonder if they're good for him. It seems to me that he really does want his life to be different but isn't willing to take actions to make that happen. He thinks reading his Bible every day is going to bring him a Godly wife, and then everything will be better.
So I feel for him, and I want our church to be a place where he finds peace and acceptance. But it's just so hard. DH and I are both uncomfortable around him, and I'd venture a guess that everyone in our small group feels the same way. At the same time, I've never felt actually unsafe. But it also feels like that could potentially change at any point, if he misses his shot or whatever. On bad days he is extremely agitated although I don't think he's gotten physical with anyone. But he does have a history of being kicked out of churches. I don't know specifics other than at the last church, he leveled some sort of threat against them and he was actually arrested and spent time in jail for it. I guess he refers to that as his "silly little felony." Which, you know, doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he feels remorse or has taken responsibility for that.
All of this to say - we just don't know what to do. Are the guys just wasting their time and energy because all of this stuff is driven by being bipolar and he needs to get a better handle on that? Or, like, is this what a medicated bipolar person is like?? It's sad to think that this might be the best version of Kyle there can be. We don't know how to balance being patient with correction, or which behaviors to focus on and which to let go.
BPD or bipolar? They are two different things, bipolar is generally not abbreviated as BPD, AFAIK. Did he say "I'm bipolar" or did he say "I have BPD" (assuming he disclosed his own diagnosis)? BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder and is an entirely different kettle of fish.
I don't know much about bipolar, I'll admit. I'm a bit more familiar with BPD as my FIL is diagnosed, medicated and in therapy for it. Bipolar people can still be assholes, being bipolar and on medication doesn't automatically mean you're a good person. My friends mom is bipolar and I seriously would have never guessed if she hadn't told me. So no, I don't think this is what medicated BP looks like, though it may be what it looks like for this guy.
Post by sofamonkey on Dec 15, 2023 14:27:02 GMT -5
Does he even want this “coaching” that’s he receiving? Or is this something that other people have taken upon themselves to do because they want a better version of him?
Honestly, he needs a lot of help, but I am not sure that your group of people is the best source for this.
I think your best bet is to accept him for who he is, and lend support with good boundaries for yourselves, that are also supportive if that’s what you all want. And research healthy boundaries if needed. Sometimes people just want to vent, but it sounds like y’all are trying to problem solve. And maybe he does want a problem solver in his life, but is not able to accept that. That’s ok.
Change your behaviors instead of continuing to try to change his.
It sounds like a person with borderline (which can be dx in conjunction with bipolar) but there isn't really any medications that work for BPD. Treatment focuses more on therapy, which it sounds like he clearly needs.
I'd construct some strong boundaries and meet him where he's at. There's not much you can do.
Post by Scout'sHonor on Dec 15, 2023 14:38:26 GMT -5
Sounds like he is still not stable on whatever medication he's on, as he sounds hypomanic. The distrust of others, acting well versed in spiritual/religious ideas, and obsessive thoughts are all hallmark hypomanic veering into manic. I do worry that since he's had one legal incident already, he has the potential to do so again in a full manic state. I don't know what you could do to support him though. He needs to be better managed by his medical team, not his church.
Post by midwestmama on Dec 15, 2023 14:42:42 GMT -5
This is a tough one. My college major was Psychology (graduated almost 20 years ago and don't work in the field, so I'm a bit rusty), but I recall that we learned that sometimes BPD is misdiagnosed as bipolar (or he could be BPD in conjunction with bipolar, as Saudade suggested), because there are some overlapping behaviors, such as impulsivity. I agree with others on having set boundaries, since you don't truly know if he has BPD or bipolar. A common characteristic of BPD is manipulation, so that is where the boundaries are important. I suspect my MIL has BPD (though her diagnosis is bipolar), so we have clear boundaries with her.
I can’t quite tell what your small group does: is it for Bible study or church discussions, or is it more like life coaching or a “men’s night out?” I guess my only advice is to meet him where he is, set firm boundaries and expectations, and treat him like any other member of the small group, following the established expectation guidelines.
rosiebear, our small group is dinner and then Bible study or prayer night. On study nights, the entire group (about 15) is all together. Prayer nights we split up men/women. Beyond that, some individual men are meeting with him 1:1 (or having 1:1 discussions on car rides).
I don't know if Kyle has ever explicitly said he wants to be coached, but he has continued to meet 1:1 with these guys for the past few months, so I'm assuming he wants it.
Post by wanderingback on Dec 15, 2023 15:10:44 GMT -5
Yeah you just need to smile and nod and set boundaries.
My partner’s dad has likely some undiagnosed mental health disorder and he’s generally harmless (to me as an outsider) but he talks and talks and talks and fixates on things and often doesn’t make sense. We just smile and nod, redirect and move on when appropriate.
If he has a personality disorder there is nothing that you can do to change his personality.
There is most likely nothing that anyone can do or say that will change his mind since that is driven by his mental illness.
I would set boundaries and be prepared to call the police or mental health hotline if you need assistance. Here, our police do a pretty good job with mental illness and de-escalation especially if they are properly briefed in your phone call. They tell us call us anytime for any reason. Some places with worse police departments may have set up a mental health division which you should be able to access through 911 or the non emergency line. Make sure to specifically ask for that. This is for a crisis situation.
You may want to reach out to social services in your village, township or county for additional support. They may be able to come to the church or another location and do a training for everyone. They also may be equipped with resources for this person.
I agree with sofamonkey , that an untrained church group is not the best place to offer help, so that is why I say reach out to know about resources in your community. You may be able to partner with a social worker or just have hand outs of resources that church members can utilize.
And yes, to answer your question they are wasting their time with him. He seems clinically delusional and manic- I'm not a healthcare worker, just my opinion from what you wrote.
“ It's sad to think that this might be the best version of Kyle there can be. We don't know how to balance being patient with correction, or which behaviors to focus on and which to let go.”
I think you might be a little over your skis. Has he asked you for this? You’re a church group, not doctors, therapists, or behavioral scientists.
This doesn't sound like normal bipolar behavior at all. I am not a psychologist FWIW, lol. But having known a handful of bipolar folks this was not my experience at all, especially medicated.
I agree it sounds like this guy has a lot more going on than what your group can handle. I think setting some firm boundaries is most likely to be successful. I do NOT think these guys should be meeting him multiple times a week if they are not enjoying doing so. They are not likely to change him so that just sounds like a lot of time being spent on a fruitless activity.
In a group, I've found it helpful for facilitation to set parameters at the beginning. You can say something like "to make sure that everyone has a chance to speak, let's agree to keep our responses to 1 minute each so there is enough time". If he keeps going beyond that, interrupt and say "thank you Kyle, at the beginning of this session we agreed to keep our comments to 1 minute so I'm going to stop you there. Who else has something to share?".
I think being straightforward but kind with someone like this is best. Tell them exactly what they can expect from you out of an interaction, and follow through. Your H could say something like "I want to support you, Kyle, but I am only able to meet up with you for 1 hour a month. I'd love to support you during that time, but I'll need you to look for other things to do the rest of the time because I have other responsibilities I need to attend to".
I know nothing of church or these groups, but it sounds like you’re not the right fit for him. If everyone is a couple, why wouldn’t he be placed? with a group of singles or a men’s only group?
“ It's sad to think that this might be the best version of Kyle there can be. We don't know how to balance being patient with correction, or which behaviors to focus on and which to let go.”
I think you might be a little over your skis. Has he asked you for this? You’re a church group, not doctors, therapists, or behavioral scientists.
I know that he's unhappy with the person he is and his life situation. He has said he wants to be a different person. He does have a medical team but I don't know how often he meets with them.
I know nothing of church or these groups, but it sounds like you’re not the right fit for him. If everyone is a couple, why wouldn’t he be placed? with a group of singles or a men’s only group?
Our group is a mixture of couples and singles. At our church, people aren't placed in a group, they choose their own, and all groups are a mixed population. There are some specialty groups but those are outside of our weekly, "here's what it looks like to be in a community" groups.
Since churches do some kinds of counseling then presumably there is some training. And in that training, there might be something about referring people out. If they are not trained then they probably shouldn't be doing 1 on 1 coaching.
Something like, "We are finding the coaching sessions to be beyond our scope of expertise, so we are referring you out to someone who would be better able to assist you" Then provide a couple of names of therapists in this area who are taking new patients and specialize in bipolar-maybe affiliated with the county health department. During car rides, I would just pay attention to the road and be hmm hmm. And still allow group meetings unless he is disruptive.
I know there are some therapists on this board, so they may be able to assist with the way they do referrals. I'm just brainstorming.
Maybe I led people astray by using the word "coaching." The churchy word for what I'm describing is "discipling" - it involves a younger-in-the-faith person being paired with an older-in-the-faith person for more in-depth Bible study, how to live a life that's more closely to how Jesus lived his, etc. I guess like a mentor. As far as I know, the guys aren't trying to do *therapy*, but yes, there is an element of - Could you look at this situation differently? Could you respond differently? (You know, WWJD and all that jazz.)
Post by followyourarrow on Dec 15, 2023 15:57:35 GMT -5
The examples make me think that Kyle may have something in addition to bipolar, but my knowledge is limited.
Does Kyle want coaching? Has he specifically asked for that? People should be able vent in a small group that they consider friends without the group thinking they need to solve the problems. More importantly, does the small group leadership have training to provide this coaching?
Kyle has a medical team, it seems to me that they should be the ones coaching Kyle because they understand the full picture better and they should have the training.
Anecdote/Biase: My exH chose to get "counseling"/mentorship from a church member when I found out he cheated on me. That person went against everything our official marriage counselor said to do and it was extremely detrimental.
Wtf. No, this is not "what a medicated bipolar person is like." This is an asshole who may or may not have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Just like there are assholes who have all kinds of mental health challenges and ones who have none.
I'm too pissed at the inference you made in your OP to offer constructive advice.
And for anyone thinking that surely I must be personally offended to have this reaction, no, I do not have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. I also endeavor not to be an asshole. So, you know.
If he has a felony and served prison time for threats against previous churches, I would not be waiting around to find out if he’s going to do it again. Being part of a church, being loving and accepting, does not mean we need to be doormats. Part of loving this guy is holding him accountable to seeking medical treatment for his mental illness(es).
I understand your situation 100%. H and I were both pastors in former careers, we have lead small groups, and have dealt with difficult people. There has to be boundaries and if he’s not meeting them, then the deal is off. Discipleship is a 2 way street. If he’s coming in argumentative and contradictory, that’s not the intention of a discipleship relationship. Asking questions, seeking clarification, respectful debate - absolutely. But he’s not doing that. A small group is supposed to be a community of equal and respectful conversation. If he is dominating the conversation and bring down the whole vibe of the group, it is okay to tell him what the expectations of the group are and if/when he doesn’t meet that ask him to stop attending.
From experience, if you continue to tolerate his behaviour you will start to lose valuable members from your group. Protect the people who support and uphold the community.
Wtf. No, this is not "what a medicated bipolar person is like." This is an asshole who may or may not have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Just like there are assholes who have all kinds of mental health challenges and ones who have none.
I'm too pissed at the inference you made in your OP to offer constructive advice.
And for anyone thinking that surely I must be personally offended to have this reaction, no, I do not have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. I also endeavor not to be an asshole. So, you know.
I'm sorry. I've been hearing from people that bipolar disorder is "really hard" but I don't know what "really hard" looks like. I was trying to ask if Kyle's behavior is to be expected from someone who's been diagnosed as bipolar, even if they are on medication.
Post by SusanBAnthony on Dec 15, 2023 16:31:06 GMT -5
I agree with all the others who said this is not what bipolar looks like.
Based on the snapshot you provided and I am not a mental health practitioner, I don't think you're going to get anywhere with this guy. Id focus on setting and keeping boundaries.
This is what bipolar looks like for my loved one who is medicated:
Most of the time they act pretty much exactly like everyone else
Sometimes if they are manic they barely sleep and get very focused on certain things but they still come off as more or less socially typical, but a more passionate version.
Sometimes if they are depressed they act like any other really depressed person (up to and including needing inpatient care, sleeping 16+ hours a day, etc).
But more or less you'd never know as they are well managed.
“ It's sad to think that this might be the best version of Kyle there can be. We don't know how to balance being patient with correction, or which behaviors to focus on and which to let go.”
I think you might be a little over your skis. Has he asked you for this? You’re a church group, not doctors, therapists, or behavioral scientists.
I know that he's unhappy with the person he is and his life situation. He has said he wants to be a different person. He does have a medical team but I don't know how often he meets with them.
My experience with someone with bipolar is my stepkids mom. If you didn’t know her diagnosis, you probably wouldn’t notice from the outside. She has a professional job, and doesn’t display the paranoia you’ve described.
Her manic episodes are usually related to spending and poor impulse control.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Dec 15, 2023 17:13:59 GMT -5
I think you need to unblur the lines between mental health treatment and church.
Think about what exactly the church is capable of providing and do that. Not what you think he needs, but what you are trained and capable of providing. Then boundaries and redirection to everything else, "that seems like a great question to ask your MH team." " you should ask your psychiatrist about that" " that's beyond my paygrade" "no, we can't do that."