I think I need clarification because many posts are interpreting this situation differently than me.
It seems like this is a small group that gets together to discuss the Bible. Kyle has joined the group and wants to discuss the Bible but also a lot of other things. The group has noticed he is socially off and this post is about wondering how to help Kyle fit in better, yes?
Some of the ways that have been tried is redirecting or asking him to reframe his thoughts, but the group’s goal is not to “counsel” Kyle on his bipolar but rather help him through and thereby lessen the frequency of the awkward social situations the group is continually encountering?
If I’m understanding correctly, I would ask your church leader to help at this point. Explain and see if he/she could offer a way to help the group be more harmonious or suggest Kyle get involved another way. I also agree with the group members discussing boundaries together so everyone responds to Kyle *in the group setting* similarly.
Beyond that, you guys aren’t going to do much more productively with him. But if you don’t want your group to splinter or fall apart completely, some communication amongst you all and church leadership is necessary.
I do agree that the previous violence charge needs to be discussed with leadership, as well. I feel squicky about that out there and no one addressing it head on before Kyle joined the group and still displaying troubled behavior.
Nothing you can do except let their family know about your concerns and hope they take the person to their medical provider.
OP said he "has been abandoned by his family", which I imagine is a whole other story that is entirely 1-sided.
100% to whoever said to look up his record.
Are we sure there isn’t anyone in the family who has some limited contact with him? Maybe someone in the church can ask and get a name. The mental health system will only communicate with a close family member/ next of kin or someone for whom he is explicitly given those rights through a notarized form. The family can communicate with the psychiatrist and share observations about his behavior.A regular friend from church has no right to communicate with his mental health team. The only option is to call emergency services if he is about to harm others or himself.
You can direct him to resources in the community but it’s on him to take advantage of that. Based on my experiences with my friend, when people are headed into a manic state, they feel wonderful and aren’t receptive to suggestions. My friend’s family members were the only people able to talk to her psychiatrist and persuade her to go to treatment and have the meds adjusted.
]TL;DR if you aren’t a family member there’s nothing you can do until it’s a crisis situation. A family member who still has limited involvement (if they’re out there) is the best person to intervene.
I think I need clarification because many posts are interpreting this situation differently than me.
It seems like this is a small group that gets together to discuss the Bible. Kyle has joined the group and wants to discuss the Bible but also a lot of other things. The group has noticed he is socially off and this post is about wondering how to help Kyle fit in better, yes?
Some of the ways that have been tried is redirecting or asking him to reframe his thoughts, but the group’s goal is not to “counsel” Kyle on his bipolar but rather help him through and thereby lessen the frequency of the awkward social situations the group is continually encountering?
If I’m understanding correctly, I would ask your church leader to help at this point. Explain and see if he/she could offer a way to help the group be more harmonious or suggest Kyle get involved another way. I also agree with the group members discussing boundaries together so everyone responds to Kyle *in the group setting* similarly.
Beyond that, you guys aren’t going to do much more productively with him. But if you don’t want your group to splinter or fall apart completely, some communication amongst you all and church leadership is necessary.
I do agree that the previous violence charge needs to be discussed with leadership, as well. I feel squicky about that out there and no one addressing it head on before Kyle joined the group and still displaying troubled behavior.
Yes, this was the intent of my question. Thank you. I think my using the term “coaching” really threw things off.
To answer some other questions - Church leadership is aware and involved. Our head pastor is one of the men Kyle meets with, and I’m under the impression they talk a few times a week. I don’t know if our pastor has looked up Kyle’s record (you have to pay for this in our state), but he has talked with the pastor of the former church and I’m not privy to their discussion but my pastor believes that Kyle is not currently a threat. I also know, however, that he’s had discussions with Kyle along the lines of, “If you want to be a part of this community, here’s what we need you to do to hold up your end of the relationship.” I would guess that one of the “rules” is that he gets his shot on time.
Kyle does not have any family in the area. His hometown is 3 hours away; he moved here to try to get a fresh start.
Post by Leeham Rimes on Dec 16, 2023 16:58:12 GMT -5
I don’t really have a lot of experience with bipolar disorder but this persons needs are well beyond the scope of your group.
Brass tacks is: this group is meant to be for prayer and bible study. This person is unable to keep the group on task. While I certainly do feel for him, I have my own mental health issues, this simply doesn’t seem to be a good fit.
Is it possible to have the head pastor attend these sessions and try to keep everything on track? And if he cannot then he can deal with telling the man that he cannot attend. The help this man needs is entirely beyond your scope and if this was me, I would take a big step back, set up parameters for the group meeting and if those parameters are breached, attendance is not allowed.
I’m also leery of this one on one time in the car. Given his history and his mental health, I would worry that if this complaints are ignored or he feels slighted in some way, something could happen. My sister in law is bipolar and she can just snap if something sets her off. We don’t interact with her much due to this. (She’s a nice person when she’s mentally even and I have no ill will against her.)
You’re there to discuss the Bible and this group was never intended as group therapy and I worry that, because nobody really knows what they’re doing as far as the man’s mental health goes, there’s more harm than good here for both parties.
I need ham like water Like breath, like rain I need ham like mercy From Heaven's gate Sometimes ham salad or casserole or ham that’s free range, all natural I need ham
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
Post by underwaterrhymes on Dec 17, 2023 8:06:42 GMT -5
I think it’s really important to remember that his brain works differently. He’s not calling your H a liar. He likely has paranoid thinking that is hard to manage. You can just reiterate, “of course you’re invited. We just want to give you information.”
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
Ah, okay. Step one here is realizing that Kyle does not think like you or your husband. He’s processing situations with a different lens. It’s okay to keep responses short and not indulge his paranoia. Pushing back and explaining that he’s calling your husband a liar will get you nowhere but the land of frustration. Kyle will not see what you are saying.
“Yes, you were on the invitation.” “Yes, you are invited. I will follow up.” End.
When someone has anxiety and you discuss it more, the anxiety deepens and down the spiral you go. Kyle is in a spiral. Don’t join him.
I do think you need to build up trust between him and the group. And even then, Kyle will still think the worst because that’s currently how his brain operates.
lust2hart, this particular interaction doesn't sounds like he's calling your H a liar, it sounds like rejection sensitivity, paranoia or a combination of both. To me it reads that he's convinced that you guys are going to change your minds and tell him he's not invited at the last minute and doesn't entirely believe your original invitation.
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
I think all this superfluous information is confusing for him and kind of rude.
When he texted, hey can I come? The response should’ve been “yes, you are welcome to come, we’ve invited you.”
Then if you needed to add details, call him as it got closer.
I think it’s really important to “meet people where they are.” I think this post is you trying to do that, OP. I commend you for it. Many would not do this.
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
I think all this added superfluous information is confusing for him.
When he texted, hey can I come? The response should’ve been “yes, you are welcome to come, we’ve invited you.”
Then if you needed to add details, call him as it got closer.
Agreed. By telling him you'll talk to him about it tomorrow Kyle now has in his brain that some big bad information is coming tomorrow and omg they don't like me, they're going to tell me I can't come, oh no it's happening again, why can't I make friends, they don't like me etc. etc. etc. You're feeding into the anxiety instead of alleviating it. Either give him the information now, or don't mention it at all.
I think all this added superfluous information is confusing for him.
When he texted, hey can I come? The response should’ve been “yes, you are welcome to come, we’ve invited you.”
Then if you needed to add details, call him as it got closer.
Agreed. By telling him you'll talk to him about it tomorrow Kyle now has in his brain that some big bad information is coming tomorrow and omg they don't like me, they're going to tell me I can't come, oh no it's happening again, why can't I make friends, they don't like me etc. etc. etc. You're feeding into the anxiety instead of alleviating it. Either give him the information now, or don't mention it at all.
Agreed. I am a neurotypical person and if I had read that I would have been like say what now? I think anytime someone wants to “talk about it tomorrow” it can be a little anxiety producing: I’m not blaming OP’s husband at all because it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback and when we’re texting you probably are not thinking about all that. But the easiest response would have been “of course you are invited. We’re still trying to finalize details about times so I’ll text you tomorrow about it.”
Post by wanderingback on Dec 17, 2023 9:26:43 GMT -5
You should be short (not in a mean way) and direct. Don’t take anything personally. This is not about you, this is how his brain works.
I’m confused why you had to talk to him about it later? Just say yes you’re invited and move on. I would probably say yes 2 or 3 times if he kept texting and then ignore after that.
I’m a churchgoer. My husband and I lead small groups. Honestly, I would be pretty horrified if my senior pastor encouraged someone to join our small group that had previously been to jail for a felony related to his interactions with church members. This is actually bananas to me.
I’m also mystified why these men are naive enough to think they can counsel someone with serious mental health issues to start thinking differently. And that they think it is cool to drive around with this person who threatened harm to others at a prior church.
Everyone here needs to take a big step back. This whole group is likely to fall apart over this one guy’s participation, which cannot be the answer. And I hope no one’s safety is at risk.
I also think telling someone with paranoia that “you will talk more about something later” is a terrible approach. What on earth do you even need to talk about? Personally, I would not invite this person to my home — regardless of small group interaction. But now that you have, just tell him the time and date and keep it moving.
Some of the party issues can be solved by simply not inviting people to a party until the details are finalized. Then you invite them and include the details. If he asks if he is invited after getting an invite, just say “yes”. But really, none of you are qualified for any of this, all of you are going to suffer and I am afraid it is going to end poorly.
Listen. I think your group is focused on the wrong things. It's great to be welcoming. It's wonderful to follow what you believe to be your religion's principles. But there is a big old fat line between that and offering mental health counseling. As they say about the road to hell and good intentions, etc.
Spend less time thinking about what the exact diagnosis is or isn't and more thinking about what is best for you AND for him. Spend less time thinking about how to handle conversations during car rides and more time thinking about whether the rides themselves are a good idea in the first place.
People with serious mental health conditions require trained medical professionals. They are far more likely to BE victims of crime than to perpetrate crimes. He shouldn't be relying exclusively on your group for help and your group, frankly, can't give that to him.
Figure out where your boundaries are, be clear, brief, and kind in your communications. That's what you owe him.
I agree, being super direct and clear in any messages will help a lot. He seems fairly literal so making him infer anything is likely to make him spiral.
I'll dissent from a lot of people and say I think it makes a lot of sense that as a church group you are trying to bring in a person with a criminal background. He has served his time and the pastor doesn't believe he is a treat - which means it's kind of shitty for people to just discard him and refuse to welcome him into what is supposed to be a place that will love and welcome all. You are actually walking the walk here by trying to give this guy what he says he wants (community and Bible study). It's not very Christian to turn away people because they are sinners or ill...
All that said of course boundaries and limits are perfectly ok and should be in place for the safety and well being of everyone else. If he won't respect boundaries set or becomes violent it's perfectly ok to kick him out then. It doesn't sound like that has happened yet. You are kind people for trying to work with him.
Also. I feel like I'm coming across like a harsh asshole to the OP. You are trying to do the right thing, that is good. You all are trying where many would not, which is admirable. You want to understand, which is open-hearted.
The gift of discernment is what you need to lean into here. How hard must be be for Kyle, whether he is just a socially awkward jerk with criminal history or a person dealing with serious challenges who was targeted unfairly by the police, or a mixture of both, to get through the day? Focus your efforts on not exacerbating those challenges and on knowing when you are out of your depth. That will serve ALL of you.
Again: you aren’t going to change or fix him. This whole approach comes across very patronizing and ‘white knight’ / savior complex.
He is neither your child nor your patient/professional client. I understand that ‘saving’ people is a big part of church rhetoric. But the ‘saving’ needs to stay in its lane.if someone opts in to your world (as this guy had done) you can work on ‘saving his soul’ by trying to convince him of your beliefs about theology and interpretations of your religious text. But that’s it.
If your group ministers to felons with mental health problems, he may be a good fit. But keep your ‘teachings/coachings/discipline’ to Bible study, not human interactions or mental health unless you’ve sought and received specific training (and not from within the church).
Yes, they are wasting their time trying to reason with him or convince him that his statements are not realistic or correct. Whether they are rooted in his mental health issues or amplified by stuff he reads on the internet, it doesn't really matter. You've seen firsthand that you can't reason someone out of the irrational. I agree with pp - set your individual and group boundaries clearly, and if he gets sullen because he is misinterpreting your clear statements that you aren't going discuss a topic anymore, then that is what happens. If people are uncomfortable doing that in a 1:1 situation, I would say that's a good indication that no one should be in a 1:1 situation with him. If the church wants him to continue to participate, then they need to figure out a way to get him there that is not potentially dangerous to their members. It's good that you are compassionate and recognize that he is lonely, but you can only be his church friends, not part of his mental health team. It sucks, but no one is benefitting from this situation.
Meeting him where he's at means not centering yourself in the conversation. "He thinks I'm (or husband) is lying" is making you the center. He does not have the capacity, or even capability, to think of others. He is solely able to care about himself and only about himself. You, your group, God, are not going to be able to change that. You, your group, God are not going to be able to change him or anything about him. This is truly one of those situations where you have to let go.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Dec 17, 2023 12:14:20 GMT -5
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
----- You guys would do well to change your communication with him to be clear, unequivocal and not open to interpretation.
For future "Yes, we are excited to see you there. Happy to answer any questions you have about it tomorrow."
So here’s a good example of what I’m asking about -
We have invited our small group over for a holiday party that’s happening in a few days. I announced it at our small group meeting last week and then I sent a followup text to the group. Kyle responded with “Please keep me in the loop.” I liked his text.
Yesterday, he texted DH - Hey can I come to the holiday party? DH - Yes, you were included in the original invitation. And let’s talk more about it head of time. Kyle - What does that mean? DH - It means we can go over details of the party tomorrow. Kyle - Are you going to tell me I’m not invited?
I realize this may not seem like a big deal, but this is Kyle’s typical conversation pattern and it gets old fast. He’s basically calling DH a liar.
So what I’m asking is - Is it okay to push back on this, to encourage Kyle to not take the worst possible view of the situation? To maybe try trusting us when we say he’s invited?
Honestly, I think you and the group are making a huge assumption that him being bipolar is THE issue, but based off this example I have some questions.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
I’m the churchgoer who said this is all bananas, but I want to add some context. My church does lot of stuff with people that are right out of jail and with people that have mental health issues. I’m not saying the church should cut this guy off.
But seriously, this pastor just throwing your group into the deep end with this person seems like a terrible idea. I am not sure I would trust this person’s threat assessment capabilities give what it sounds like happened.
At all the churches I have attended, there would be numerous ways to include this person that were supervised by pastors, took place at the church and were in larger groups with more structure. In my experience, small groups are intensely personal, often hosted in people’s homes, etc.
And when something more complicated happens there is A LOT of discussion. For example, a decade ago our church set up a special needs classroom specifically for my kid and one other that can never mainstream. I’m sure they had lots of meetings and discussions about it that didn’t include me. As they began to realize they could potentially meet our needs, then there were meetings with both families to make sure we were all of the same page about what this looked like. Then, we meet each year with volunteers to explain our kids and their needs to make sure volunteers are comfortable. They can then opt out if dealing with a teen girl in diapers (aka my kid) is too much for them. And the church will revisit things if any of the kids develops more behavioral issues. I’m fully aware that the church volunteers are not equipped if my kid became violent (which isn’t the case at all). I’m just trying to describe what it looks like to create a situation that works for everyone.
It doesn’t sound like your pastor laid any of the groundwork for this situation.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
If all he had said was "yes you're invited" then sure. But he added "let's talk about it tomorrow" which is ambiguous and anxiety provoking as pointed out by numerous people in this thread.
Hmmm. This exchange, and your interpretation of it, make me feel like you have gotten into a downward spiral with Kyle and definitely need to reassess.
I see absolutely nothing in that exchange that suggests he is calling your H a liar, and the fact that you jumped to that conclusion suggests that he has you so on edge as to set every interaction up for failure.
I’m not sure what the solution is, and I commend you for wanting to help him, but honestly, your reaction is almost more baffling than his, this time.
DH explicitly said he was invited to the party. He replied by asking if tomorrow DH was going to tell him he was uninvited. To me, that says he didn't believe DH when DH told him he was invited. When you don't believe someone, aren't you saying you think they're lying?
That said, yes, I do believe we've gotten into a spiral and need to make some adjustments in our own attitude and they way we talk with him, and about him to each other.
But don't you think that saying "yes, let's talk more about it" is also kind of strange on your H's part? Especially when included as part of the answer to someone asking if he can come? It makes it sound like yes is not the complete story because there's something else that needs to be discussed.
I’m the churchgoer who said this is all bananas, but I want to add some context. My church does lot of stuff with people that are right out of jail and with people that have mental health issues. I’m not saying the church should cut this guy off.
I agree with this. My church, even though I'm no longer an active member, was very involved with the unhoused community. There was a lot of training of the laypeople involved, guidelines for "after hours" contact, etc. This church and church group seem to be very suburban, and idealistic with none of the nitty gritty. Like the original assertion that people are to bring a dish if they are able, but with the strong mindset that everyone should be able to bring something. If there truly was a mindset that no one cares if you bring anything, it wouldn't be in the OP.