Major bridge collapse in Baltimore

[tacokick]

Mar 26, 2024 8:33:55 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm glad I wasn't going crazy thinking this was the same location as Evergreen, but I was having a hard time confirming given the breaking news of this event. I wasn't going straight to pilot error, but I was wondering if there's something about that specific channel that lends itself to increased risk.

But given the reports of power failure and billowing smoke, it does seem to a lay person like me that it's unfortunate conincidence. But also with extra traffic there will of course be increased risk of adverse incidents.

It is a naturally fairly narrow area and the Bay/river is surprisingly shallow. If an accident was going to happen this general area would be where. The ships are kind of threading the needle here coming up from the large area of the Bay into the river/harbor.

[mala]

Mar 26, 2024 8:39:27 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Mar 26, 2024 8:05:59 GMT -5 mala said:

H and I discussed this too. We're kind of just assuming it's because of increased traffic in the shipping channel combined with the fact that the channel in the bay is very narrow and hard to navigate. But yeah, seems like something needs to be investigated so these kinds of incidents don't continue.

It seems from video that this ship had a power issue, resolved it, then continued under the bridge where it had a second failure which then caused it to hit the bridge. H is livid; as soon as the first failure happened they should have stopped/returned to port and not continued to the bridge. If that is indeed the case, this would be pilot error, same as Evergreen, and jumping to conclusions I'd say the shipping companies are too focused on profits to respond appropriately to accidents like this.

Ships like that don't have brakes. There's a good chance that they were trying to slow down and maneuver but had no chance of stopping the forward movement of the ship. I will be interested to see if they had alerted authorities ahead of the crash. I feel absolutely terrible for the workers on the bridge and the drivers. What a disaster.

Very true.

[tacokick]

Mar 26, 2024 8:42:11 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 26, 2024 8:36:03 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I wonder how they are going to re-route the trucks carrying HAZMATs since they aren’t allowed in the tunnels.

Top side of the beltway. Through Towson?

I guess they will have to but it’s a major detour and under a lot of construction.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 8:33:55 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm glad I wasn't going crazy thinking this was the same location as Evergreen, but I was having a hard time confirming given the breaking news of this event. I wasn't going straight to pilot error, but I was wondering if there's something about that specific channel that lends itself to increased risk.

But given the reports of power failure and billowing smoke, it does seem to a lay person like me that it's unfortunate conincidence. But also with extra traffic there will of course be increased risk of adverse incidents.

So, I took my bit about the evergreen out because I don’t want to start speculating and blaming when it’s so early and we have signs of mechanical failure. But, as a local who kind of knows the river, it’s not the same location exactly. If you aren’t a local, it is. If that makes sense. Evergreen was closer to where the river enters the bay (he missing the turn when the channel enters the bay), so 5 miles downstream. But, it’s close enough it should have been a Baltimore Harbor pilot. I don’t know where they hand off in the Bay.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 8:42:16 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Mar 26, 2024 8:33:55 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm glad I wasn't going crazy thinking this was the same location as Evergreen, but I was having a hard time confirming given the breaking news of this event. I wasn't going straight to pilot error, but I was wondering if there's something about that specific channel that lends itself to increased risk.

But given the reports of power failure and billowing smoke, it does seem to a lay person like me that it's unfortunate conincidence. But also with extra traffic there will of course be increased risk of adverse incidents.

It is a naturally fairly narrow area and the Bay/river is surprisingly shallow. If an accident was going to happen this general area would be where. The ships are kind of threading the needle here coming up from the large area of the Bay into the river/harbor.

Oh the picture is good. See where it says “lake shore”? Go up to the top of that spit above shore, and the Evergreen was visible from the park that’s there. So… close-ish.

Edit, crap. Now I’m thinking the park is that other pointy part. Like a couple points up from where I first explained. There is green there suggesting a park. wawa can you confirm which point is Ft Smallwood?

[mala]

www.charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/12281.pdf & www.charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/12280.pdf I was trying to find a map that shows just how narrow the cargo shipping channels are, this is the best I found so far. The white channels in the water are the cargo lanes, where these ships will fit. They are incredibly narrow, especially if the current is strong and the wind is up. And ship sizes increasing only make them more difficult to navigate.

[mpc]

Mar 26, 2024 7:47:45 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Mar 26, 2024 7:29:14 GMT -5 minzy said:

This is terrible. I did see a blurb posted on my neighborhood page this morning as I am also semi-local but I didn’t read beyond the headline. When NPR at the 6am news described an overnight “mass casualty incident in Baltimore” I did not immediately realize it was the same thing.

My husband recently got us each these after one of his colleagues drowned in his car. I have already had heavy duty scissors in the car for years after reading some horror story (I think on here) about tangled seat belts.
www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Emergency-Cutter-Window-Accessories/dp/B073JCMTW2/ref=asc_df_B073JCMTW2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=242059895035&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6948512461894733605&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1021048&hvtargid=pla-405044190162&psc=1&mcid=0897eb97de063d8ba259dcd3bb052097&gclid=CjwKCAjw5ImwBhBtEiwAFHDZx2OHYWHKq7C2fUK-yi-85sxVir1O0qk24HAjVdTngows-1Z11wHhYxoCyFQQAvD_BwE

I saw a news piece last week, after Mitch McConnell’s SIL died in a vehicle that submerged in water, that those window piercer things don’t work on laminated glass, which most newer vehicles have on side windows as well as the windshield. Laminated glass is much safer in side impacts because it keeps the glass shards from coming into the cabin….:but you won’t be able to smash the window with one of those tools.

This same news piece indicated that the best course of action is you vehicle ends up in water is to immediately roll down the windows to equalize the pressure (you probably have 30-60 seconds), release seat belts, and egress via the open windows. They emphasized NOT to waste time calling 911 from inside the vehicle.

Yes yes yes. Windows, Seatbelt, Get out. You should have enough time to open the windows before the electric shorts out if you do it right away. Those emergency hammer/seat belt cutter things are good to have, but as a last resort. If you have one in your car, make sure it is secured somewhere you can find without looking, because when you go down it will go flying. Ending up in the water in the car is my biggest fear. I read they rescued two people, I so hope that number goes up. 

[AAM2012]

Those who are missing (6) were doing construction (pot hole repair) on the bridge when it happened. So sad 😞

I can’t even imagine if this had happened during the day or rush hour.

[katb]

Mar 26, 2024 8:39:27 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Mar 26, 2024 8:05:59 GMT -5 mala said:

H and I discussed this too. We're kind of just assuming it's because of increased traffic in the shipping channel combined with the fact that the channel in the bay is very narrow and hard to navigate. But yeah, seems like something needs to be investigated so these kinds of incidents don't continue.

It seems from video that this ship had a power issue, resolved it, then continued under the bridge where it had a second failure which then caused it to hit the bridge. H is livid; as soon as the first failure happened they should have stopped/returned to port and not continued to the bridge. If that is indeed the case, this would be pilot error, same as Evergreen, and jumping to conclusions I'd say the shipping companies are too focused on profits to respond appropriately to accidents like this.

Ships like that don't have brakes. There's a good chance that they were trying to slow down and maneuver but had no chance of stopping the forward movement of the ship. I will be interested to see if they had alerted authorities ahead of the crash. I feel absolutely terrible for the workers on the bridge and the drivers. What a disaster.

Our Governor has reported that a Mayday did go out and they were able to stop the flow of traffic beforehand.  It is still possible some cars of travelors were on the bridge but there were also cars of the construction workers on the bridge too.  The 2 survivors thus far have not been identified - whether construction or civilian.

[MixedBerryJam]

I haven’t read all the responses yet but am I the only one who’s a bit freaked out that the major infrastructure disasters have happened in the last year or so? First was the overpass on 95 outside Philadelphia, then I recall a collapse in CA, I think, but I don’t remember the details but I’ll like for it, and now this.

Only by a muscular convergence of events was the pass overpass repaired as quickly as it was; it was expected to take months. They just look targeted to me.

ETA yeah, I know infrastructure is a disaster and it’s probably just coincidence. I still feel kind of freaked out but also the rational side of me is not powerless here and my freak is subsiding.

[basilosaurus]

Mar 26, 2024 9:05:10 GMT -5 mala said:

www.charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/12281.pdf & www.charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/12280.pdf I was trying to find a map that shows just how narrow the cargo shipping channels are, this is the best I found so far. The white channels in the water are the cargo lanes, where these ships will fit. They are incredibly narrow, especially if the current is strong and the wind is up. And ship sizes increasing only make them more difficult to navigate.

I agree these ship sizes are only making these narrow passages so much worse. Wasn't that the issue with evergreen, that there was such a small margin of error? That it had such a deep draft only a few ports and channels could handle it? I'm guessing there are environmental issues with dredging and widening the channels. Not to mention bridges aren't exactly movable. 

I grew up in port everglades watching boats come in, lived at los angeles port (now that's a scary bridge!), now am at a wide part of malacca strait, so I feel like I've heard all these issues but never delved into certain details. 

Not meaning to derail, but if you have things I can read, I'd love them.

[MixedBerryJam]

Mar 26, 2024 7:29:14 GMT -5 minzy said:

www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Emergency-Cutter-Window-Accessories/dp/B073JCMTW2/ref=asc_df_B073JCMTW2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=242059895035&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6948512461894733605&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1021048&hvtargid=pla-405044190162&psc=1&mcid=0897eb97de063d8ba259dcd3bb052097&gclid=CjwKCAjw5ImwBhBtEiwAFHDZx2OHYWHKq7C2fUK-yi-85sxVir1O0qk24HAjVdTngows-1Z11wHhYxoCyFQQAvD_BwE

I gave this exact tool to both if my kids (and myself). I actually keep it secure, but in a spot where I can see it all the time bc I’m afraid in a disaster I’ll forget I have it!

[notreal]

Mar 26, 2024 10:33:16 GMT -5 MixedBerryJam said:

I haven’t read all the responses yet but am I the only one who’s a bit freaked out that the major infrastructure disasters have happened in the last year or so? First was the overpass on 95 outside Philadelphia, then I recall a collapse in CA, I think, but I don’t remember the details but I’ll like for it, and now this.

Only by a muscular convergence of events was the pass overpass repaired as quickly as it was; it was expected to take months. They just look targeted to me.

Infrastructure in this country is horrific.  And it affects everything.  Everyone is just one small mistake away from a potential catastrophic occurrence whether it's from a utility failure or a roadway collapse. For instance, in the US, 18,000 bridges have been labeled fracture critical, meaning they can collapse because of a failure of a single component. 

[tacokick]

Mar 26, 2024 10:33:16 GMT -5 MixedBerryJam said:

I haven’t read all the responses yet but am I the only one who’s a bit freaked out that the major infrastructure disasters have happened in the last year or so? First was the overpass on 95 outside Philadelphia, then I recall a collapse in CA, I think, but I don’t remember the details but I’ll like for it, and now this.

Only by a muscular convergence of events was the pass overpass repaired as quickly as it was; it was expected to take months. They just look targeted to me.

The bridge was less than 50 years old. I don’t think even a newer bridge could withstand a ship of this size hitting the support pillar full on. It was undergoing some concrete repairs but over all is one of the newer bridges in the area and was in solid shape.

I think there are a lot of infrastructure problems here (we still use tunnels from the 1800s!) but I don’t think this was one of them. It’s a narrow area and there was no where else for a ship in trouble to go.

[basilosaurus]

No, I don't think it's targeted unless you count GOP wanting to destroy the country by defunding public works and giving private jet tax breaks.

[Deleted]

If you think of the mass of the ship, even at a very slow speed, the bridge piling didn’t stand a chance. Honestly even at half the mass, it probably wouldn’t have sustained a direct impact.

[neverfstop]

Mar 26, 2024 10:47:12 GMT -5 notreal said:

Mar 26, 2024 10:33:16 GMT -5 MixedBerryJam said:

I haven’t read all the responses yet but am I the only one who’s a bit freaked out that the major infrastructure disasters have happened in the last year or so? First was the overpass on 95 outside Philadelphia, then I recall a collapse in CA, I think, but I don’t remember the details but I’ll like for it, and now this.

Only by a muscular convergence of events was the pass overpass repaired as quickly as it was; it was expected to take months. They just look targeted to me.

Infrastructure in this country is horrific.  And it affects everything.  Everyone is just one small mistake away from a potential catastrophic occurrence whether it's from a utility failure or a roadway collapse. For instance, in the US, 18,000 bridges have been labeled fracture critical, meaning they can collapse because of a failure of a single component. 

I'm the opposite...I'm shocked that there haven't been more issues with roads/bridges given their poor condition.  I am concerned more about the airline issues though...we've been relatively "safe" and injury/accident/defect free for a long time, but insiders have been warning that major issues are coming & we are starting to see more and more airplane issues that are nearly tragic (close calls).  It feels like there are so many problems under the surface- the pilot/FA hours, the air traffic controllers, the manufacturing oversight, the complexity/automation of the new planes, increasing volume of traffic & congestion at airports, etc. 

[mrsd2006]

I wonder if the ship had any tug boats that could have stopped it once it lost power. I haven't seen anything about that yet.

[tacokick]

Mar 26, 2024 11:12:39 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Mar 26, 2024 10:47:12 GMT -5 notreal said:

Infrastructure in this country is horrific.  And it affects everything.  Everyone is just one small mistake away from a potential catastrophic occurrence whether it's from a utility failure or a roadway collapse. For instance, in the US, 18,000 bridges have been labeled fracture critical, meaning they can collapse because of a failure of a single component. 

I'm the opposite...I'm shocked that there haven't been more issues with roads/bridges given their poor condition. 

Yes, the bridge near me was recently replaced. It was built in 1911 and never meant to accommodate 22k cars going over it every day. I was sure there was going to be a collapse when they finally shut it down.

So many bridges are very old and predate heavy car usage and are just crumbling.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 11:15:10 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

I wonder if the ship had any tug boats that could have stopped it once it lost power. I haven't seen anything about that yet.

The tugs get the ships on and off the pier. This ship left the pier 40 minutes prior. It was under its own power.

[Velar Fricative]

Mar 26, 2024 11:15:10 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

I wonder if the ship had any tug boats that could have stopped it once it lost power. I haven't seen anything about that yet.

I saw that the ship was embarking on a 27-day journey to Sri Lanka and had only departed the port 30 minutes before the accident. And it does seem like everything happened so fast. I am sure investigators will look into whether the ship should have departed in the first place.

[terpsfan]

Mar 26, 2024 8:45:23 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Mar 26, 2024 8:42:11 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Top side of the beltway. Through Towson?

I guess they will have to but it’s a major detour and under a lot of construction.

And where we had a massive construction worker tragedy this time last year!! That stretch of the beltway is awful and now more traffic and trucks going through.

[wildrice]

The video is terrifying! I am so glad it happened overnight and that it sounds like they were able to stop traffic. It could have been so, so much worse. I hope it turns out that there were fewer people who went into the water than they thought.

I thankfully almost never travel over that bridge but I can only imagine how badly this is going to mess up traffic in this area for a long, long time. I feel so bad for all the people whose daily commute or other activities are going to have to be drastically altered, and I imagine it will impact all of us in the Baltimore metro area. There is already so much traffic here!

[mrsd2006]

Mar 26, 2024 11:41:42 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 26, 2024 11:15:10 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

I wonder if the ship had any tug boats that could have stopped it once it lost power. I haven't seen anything about that yet.

The tugs get the ships on and off the pier. This ship left the pier 40 minutes prior. It was under its own power.

Not necessarily.  

[wawa]

Mar 26, 2024 11:15:10 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

I wonder if the ship had any tug boats that could have stopped it once it lost power. I haven't seen anything about that yet.

mala can answer this much better than me I think (unless I'm mixing up my locals), but from what I've seen while hanging about on the water up there the tugs dont' usually follow the ships all the way to the bridge from the port.  they get them turned the right way and on their way.  Not sure if that varies by size - it probably does?  I'm not an expert.


for anybody hoping for a quick turnaround like philly - that's unfortunately a no. That was essentially an overpass bridge over a relative small road, not a bridge over a major shipping channel. They managed to open 95 quickly by closing the road that runs underneath and filling in what used to be a bridge with a temporary pile of fill and building on top of that. It was a bandaid. Even the speed of the permanent replacement isn't going to be even close to matched over water because this is a magnitudes longer and taller structure.


Please don't anybody go all tinfoil on this one - we don't build bridges that can survive a fully loaded giant container ship hitting directly in a main support. This bridge wasn't even in bad shape.  I think the profit motive of the shipping company *could* have influenced the outcome here as hinted at above but we dont' know that yet.  (deferred maintenance on the ship, continuing on course when they knew they might be having an issue, etc)  Nobody go down a "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" path please. 


As big of a deal as this is for the highway system, there ARE detours available. Non-hazmat has 2 tunnels, and hazmat just has to go around the long way on the beltway (which, yes, sucks, but is doable). (or up the eastern shore for longer hauls if they're coming from/going to VA and South/DE and North) I don't think anybody can overstate how big of a deal this is for the port if they can't clear the channel quickly. Hopefully they can once the rescue efforts are done.

Anybody waiting on a new tractor overseas is going to keep waiting, coal is going to be held up, domino sugar downtown can't bring in new material, car dealerships aren't going to get their new stock in on time in either direction (baltimore is a huge roll on/roll off port for vehicles), etc etc, and any ships already in the harbor are stranded.  Plus all the complete mishsmash of shit on the containers.  The cascade backwards on the rail connections, etc etc.  It's going to be a mess.  The international crew on any stranded ships are going to have weird visa hoops to jump through too i imagine? I haven't seen a detailed statement yet from the Port Administration, I assume because they frankly just don't know yet what they're looking at in terms of timeframe.  I hope the can pivot the ROROs at least over to tradepoint.  I was glad to see that already being talked about (but not surprised).

rubytue, the point that points straight north is fort smallwood.  The next point down is closer to Downs Park, which you could also see Evergreen from IIRC.  I think it was about halfway between the two?  Like straight out from Kurtz's.  Great wedding backdrop.

for those curious about the ship side nitty gritty - this has some details: 

www.todayonline.com/singapore/mpa-singapore-flagged-vessel-collision-baltimore-bridge-collapse-2391441

www.supplychaindive.com/news/baltimore-francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-port/711347/

[mala]

Short answer on tugs is no. Longer answer will wait until I get to a real keyboard. Also the environmental impact here will be huge, which i dont see anyone brining up yet.

[minzy]

I hate all of this but I do love when subject matter experts enter the chat.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 11:56:54 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

Mar 26, 2024 11:41:42 GMT -5 rubytue said:

The tugs get the ships on and off the pier. This ship left the pier 40 minutes prior. It was under its own power.

Not necessarily.  

Please see wawa’s post below. She explained it in more word. But, in all my boating in and around the bridge, I never once saw a tug follow a ship out. A barge, yes. But not a ship.

[SusanBAnthony]

Why will people overseas have to wait for tractors?

[mala]

Fucking hell the conspiracy theories are unhinged. (EDIT: on the greater internet, not conspiracy theories here on GBCN)

The longer answer on tugs: There weren't any tugs escorting the ship at the time, no (As far as I and H are aware). Tugs are usually used at the docks to get the ships moved in and out of the port itself. They can be used to go through the bridge and other spaces that are tight. They aren't usually used at this bridge AFAIK. The Dali DID have a Chesapeake Bay captain piloting, as is required by law. So a local expert who navigates the area professionally*. He did call a mayday which allowed the bridge to close and undoubtedly saved lives. Initial reports say that the ship was going 8 knots which I believe is above the speed limit around bridges which if my memory is correct is 5 mph (about 4 knots). Whether that was a factor is not known. The current could be responsible for the speed and without power it may not have been able to compensate. At that speed, even if there were tugs they may not have been able to provide enough force to prevent this.

*the Evergreen/Everfoward what ever it was also had a Bay pilot . He was confirmed to be on his phone texting and missed where he should have turned to follow the channel.

Also, boats need forward momentum to steer. If you loose your engines, you're pretty much dead in the water and and the mercy of both the wind and the current. There are secondary steering mechanisms, like smaller thrusters, but again they won't work in a power failure, and they can only provide so much force.

They may be able to use tugs to get the Dali out of where it is now, but they need to get the portion of the bridge off it first and assess the hull. To do that they need a barge with a big crane to lift the piece off. There's only a handful in the world capable of it, apparently one is close-ish but it's still going to take a few days to get here. Then they have to determine what it's resting on, whether the piling, sea bed, mud, rock, etc. If the hull is comprised that's a whole other level of complexity. The parts of the bridge itself will need to be removed, and that's probably going to involved underwater crews to cut it into manageable parts, cut the steel trusses off, grind through the concrete, and then pull it up with the big barge crane and haul the parts out. You can't leave it since it will take up space the ships need to pass through, not to even mention the environmental impact of leaving it in the bay. Maybe you could pull it to the side and make an artificial reef, but again, environmental impact.

And speaking of the environmental impact, that 100% did some damage to the seabed. Most of the bay is mud and muck and silt, it undoubtedly kicked up a ton into the water that needs to settle out. It's going to make visibility awful down there. It's going to impact all the fish that live not only in the river but the larger bay as a whole. Plus lord known what it's going to do to blue crabs and oysters. And it won't stop impacting them because it's going to stir up the bottom even more as they pull it all back up.