Major bridge collapse in Baltimore

[Vespasia]

I've been waiting for you to show up with the traffic analysis wawa!

[mala]

Mar 26, 2024 12:57:14 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Why will people overseas have to wait for tractors?

Simply an export from the port. Nothing is going in or out for at least a month, not by sea anyway.

[wawa]

Mar 26, 2024 12:57:14 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Why will people overseas have to wait for tractors?

because john deere ships out of baltimore.  They come in by train on flatbed cars, and roll onto huge ass floating parking garages called RORO ships (roll on/roll off) and off they go. 

They can reroute obviously, but not quickly.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 13:16:04 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I've been waiting for you to show up with the traffic analysis wawa!

Also waiting on ECB with full tug analysis lol

[ssmjlm]

I would say the Virginia ports in Hampton Roads could help, but the new tunnel construction has made everything a nightmare even more. Maybe if they can use the Newport News port vs Norfolk or Portsmouth.

[wawa]

Mar 26, 2024 13:16:04 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I've been waiting for you to show up with the traffic analysis wawa !

LOL. My prediction is that give it a few weeks to settle and highway traffic won't really be that big of a deal. The tunnels have always taken the brunt, and since the Harbor Tunnel Thruway had been under construction for ages but is done, AND we've got the high speed tolling in place now there's a little bit of slack in the system compared to 4 years ago.  it will be worse than typical, and definitely faster to get ugly on bad days but not carmageddon on a daily basis.  Anybody who can avoid it by working from home while it's bad will do so too, so that'll help. The pandemic traffic silver lining - a lot more people can just choose not to commute on an ad hoc basis than used to be the case.

I am guessing, but educated guessing.  Nobody has paid me to analyze it so I'm not looking at hard numbers. 

[pixy0stix]

AP has an article listing other major bridge collapses - apnews.com/article/bridge-collapses-barges-list-1f2d6261d523ddc625aaaf3b32c626bc

A list of major US bridge collapses caused by ships and barges

[wawa]

Also of note for this board (I'd not bring this up right now in a different place because it feels mercenary, but this is what we talk about here) our state transportation budget was already facing cuts. So just add that to the pile of suck.

[mala]

Mar 26, 2024 14:19:31 GMT -5 wawa said:

Also of note for this board (I'd not bring this up right now in a different place because it feels mercenary, but this is what we talk about here) our state transportation budget was already facing cuts. So just add that to the pile of suck.

I think it's 100% valid to note. Forget money to rebuild, the strain this is going to put on the other roads is going to be noticeable, and that is going to increase wear and accidents. Add in loss of revenue from the port and it's not going to be an easy time. Plus if they think it will take 6 weeks to remove the debris and dredge the channel, there's a good chance many of the port workers will get laid off and then unemployment gets to pick up the slack so to speak. The ripple effect this is going to cause is going to be staggering.

[jlt19]

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

[wawa]

Mar 26, 2024 14:37:04 GMT -5 mala said:

Mar 26, 2024 14:19:31 GMT -5 wawa said:

Also of note for this board (I'd not bring this up right now in a different place because it feels mercenary, but this is what we talk about here) our state transportation budget was already facing cuts. So just add that to the pile of suck.

I think it's 100% valid to note. Forget money to rebuild, the strain this is going to put on the other roads is going to be noticeable, and that is going to increase wear and accidents. Add in loss of revenue from the port and it's not going to be an easy time. Plus if they think it will take 6 weeks to remove the debris and dredge the channel, there's a good chance many of the port workers will get laid off and then unemployment gets to pick up the slack so to speak. The ripple effect this is going to cause is going to be staggering.

thedailyrecord.com/2024/03/26/bridge-collapse-likely-to-have-profound-impact-on-port-of-baltimore-operations/

$15M per day in economic impact says one expert.  So that's fun.  

[klee23]

Mar 26, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

I'll have to find it - I think it was a CNN scroll- but there was 90 seconds between mayday & impact. Be back with link

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

My understanding is that the construction workers were the ones stopping traffic and trying to evacuate others from the bridge (ie: get them out of their vehicles and clear of the bridge). It sounds like they may have acted heroically. There wasn’t much time to get people clear. I imagine it was terrifying.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

It’s a miracle they got traffic stopped. It was only like 90 second. On CNN they have a recording of the radio traffic, and one guy says he will ride up and get the crew off once he confirms traffic is stopped. Then someone breaks in and says the bridge is gone. The entire recording is 1:49.

[mala]

jlt19, that span of the bridge is something like half a mile long. The entire bridge is a mile and a half. Plus no way to get a message to them easily. I doubt there was time to get them evacuated.

[klee23]

Mar 26, 2024 15:45:42 GMT -5 klee23 said:

Mar 26, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

I'll have to find it - I think it was a CNN scroll- but there was 90 seconds between mayday & impact. Be back with link

I couldn't link the article because of the breaking news scroll but here's the screenshot.

[Susie]

Mar 26, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

I think there really wasn't time.  CNN reported about 90 seconds from police audio to bridge collapse.  Piecing together timelines from a couple articles:

 1:24am - ship's lights flicker 

 1:25am - traffic was still flowing over the bridge, construction crew in the middle of the bridge (i.e. farthest/longest distance to travel to get to safety, and not already in a vehicle ready to roll to safety).  Ship's power was out.  

 1:26am - ship's power comes back on, smoke

 1:27am - a last couple vehicles drive across the bridge span.  First call from ship to USCG for assistance.

 1:28am - ship hits the bridge pillar

 +0:06 - bridge collapses

 1:29am - emergency calls start coming in

www.wbaltv.com/article/baltimore-key-bridge-collapse-second-by-second-breakdown/60309992

www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/northeast/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-timeline/https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/northeast/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-timeline/

It's pretty amazing that they did close the bridge to cars in that timespan; obviously it being ~1:30am and traffic being light helped.  

Even if - IF - they were able to immediately and concisely communicate the message to the guys who were probably actively working on the bridge in parallel with efforts to stop traffic, it would be tight to physically get the guys off the 1.6 mile long bridge in 1-2 minutes.  They couldn't just run and make it, they'd have to drop what they're doing, jump into trucks, and floor it for ~3/4 mile-ish? to safety.  You're coming up against the edge of possibility, much less practicality, for an eventuality that nobody was prepared for.

[wawa]

Mar 26, 2024 15:50:23 GMT -5 mala said:

jlt19 , that span of the bridge is something like half a mile long. The entire bridge is a mile and a half. Plus no way to get a message to them easily. I doubt there was time to get them evacuated.

It's actually more like 1.5 miles.  1 mile for the part over water. I'm sure they had radios and were in communication with the MDTA police - that would be pretty typical procedure for highway work zones.  But there's a huge difference between 90 seconds to drive a mile when you're already in a car (i.e. for people driving by to clear the bridge) and 90 seconds to get spread the message to the whole crew, get TO a vehicle, IN the vehicle, and drive off the bridge from the middle of the work zone.

[orangello]

The shocking part of the video is you can clearly see a decent number of large vehicles crossing the bridge right around when the power flickered on the ship. Whomever was able to stop most of the traffic are heroes; it was so much busier than I thought it would be at that time.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 26, 2024 16:32:33 GMT -5 archiethedragon said:

A ship that big take a long time to turn or stop. So the crew must have known for quite a while, certainly much longer than 90 seconds that they were going to hit the bridge. It will be interesting to hear why they didn’t call authorities earlier which would have given those on the bridge more time to evacuate.

5 min is a long time?

[pixy0stix]

Mar 26, 2024 16:51:59 GMT -5 archiethedragon said:

Mar 26, 2024 16:49:36 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

5 min is a long time?

Longer than 90 seconds.

They called 2ish min after they lost power and realized they lost steering. Probably as soon as they tried first to get the systems online. That's pretty instantaneous. You can't seriously be arm chairing this. It was an accident where everyone did what they were supposed to do as fast as they could for humans.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 26, 2024 16:59:31 GMT -5 archiethedragon said:

Mar 26, 2024 16:57:28 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

They called 2ish min after they lost power and realized they lost steering. Probably as soon as they tried first to get the systems online. That's pretty instantaneous. You can't seriously be arm chairing this. It was an accident where everyone did what they were supposed to do as fast as they could for humans.

I think it will be interesting to hear how much longer before those two minutes that they knew or should have known they were going to hit the bridge. Ship that big take a long time to turn or stop.

Which is why it hit the bridge...

[klee23]

Mar 26, 2024 16:59:31 GMT -5 archiethedragon said:

Mar 26, 2024 16:57:28 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

They called 2ish min after they lost power and realized they lost steering. Probably as soon as they tried first to get the systems online. That's pretty instantaneous. You can't seriously be arm chairing this. It was an accident where everyone did what they were supposed to do as fast as they could for humans.

I think it will be interesting to hear how much longer before those two minutes that they knew or should have known they were going to hit the bridge. Ship that big take a long time to turn or stop.

This is the 2nd time you've said this. The ship was estimated at 9 knots/8 mph so 90" before impact it would have been 0.2 miles away- if it had steering capability it likely would have only needed a slight adjustment to clear the support by 20 feet to the left or right to avoid impact. It didn't need to make a 90* turn

[pixy0stix]

News outlets have a map of the course and you can tell when the ship veered, which is close to the bridge and where they lost power.

Now they might have been having issues before that they thought they could correct, but they did all they could to warn that they might impact when they realized what was happening.

[jlt19]

Mar 26, 2024 15:45:42 GMT -5 klee23 said:

Mar 26, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

I’m curious why the construction workers weren’t pulled off the bridge. Surely if there was time to stop traffic, there was time to notify them to evacuate.

I'll have to find it - I think it was a CNN scroll- but there was 90 seconds between mayday & impact. Be back with link

Oh wow. I didn’t realize they were notified and had traffic stopped within 90 seconds. I saw the sped up video footage, but since I’m on vacation with my kids, haven’t read much coverage. In my head I was picturing police cars blocking traffic, so that’s why I was assuming they had more notice.

Sounds like the emergency protocols that are in place worked nearly as well as could be expected in such a situation. Obviously still a tragedy all around, but a stellar response time.

[Vespasia]

We just heard the name of the construction company working on the bridge and it's a company MH's cousin used to work for doing highway construction zone safety set ups, usually overnight.

MH worked with him for awhile (different company) and I hated it. I was always worried about his safety, more so than I was when he was a bike messenger or any of his other vaguely dangerous jobs.

[Vespasia]

They've called off the search for survivors and the 6 missing men are presumed dead. At this point it's not surprising but still terrible.

It's supposed to rain the next two days, which won't help matters.

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 17:11:01 GMT -5 klee23 said:

Mar 26, 2024 16:59:31 GMT -5 archiethedragon said:

I think it will be interesting to hear how much longer before those two minutes that they knew or should have known they were going to hit the bridge. Ship that big take a long time to turn or stop.

This is the 2nd time you've said this. The ship was estimated at 9 knots/8 mph so 90" before impact it would have been 0.2 miles away- if it had steering capability it likely would have only needed a slight adjustment to clear the support by 20 feet to the left or right to avoid impact. It didn't need to make a 90* turn

And then, you have the winds from the NE, the tides, and the currents. It’s fascinating to me that the plot of the ships course look like it caught a gust of wind as it was nearing the bridge, and it HUGE with straight sides. Yeah sure, the pilots should be use to that. But, y’all don’t forget the wind’s affect on a 1000 ft long vessel from the soft armchair. 

[mala]

I wanted to share these two videos (same guy) that my husband suggested. Be aware they both show the bridge collapse in it's entirely.

youtu.be/N39w6aQFKSQ?si=oLd5uY8yIiSi6fmO
youtu.be/qZbUXewlQDk?si=JA6jJZklnBgLZ4P1

EDIT: He's doing a live stream right now if anyone wants to tune in (8:21 eastern) and they're talking about tugs

[pixy0stix]

Biden says feds will pay total cost to replace bridge - Biden Vows Federal Help After Bridge Collapse in Baltimore www.nytimes.com/2024/03/26/us/politics/biden-baltimore-bridge-collapse-infrastructure.html?smid=nytcore-android-share&ugrp=c&pvid=319ea6ac-7fa0-4d68-a4ac-63f226ee6a0e