Major bridge collapse in Baltimore

[wawa]

Mar 27, 2024 14:22:56 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Thank you ECB ! I don’t know why it was irritating me so much, but the several people were telling me I was wrong and that tugs are SOP at all ports, and it was an error that they weren’t. When you know, I’ve seen with my own eyes that there aren’t tugs at the bridge. I mean, someone on the internet is wrong!! 😂 (this is mostly directed at the mansplainer on FB)

WTF, are these people confused about how close the bridge is to the actual port facility??  For Seagirt (i.e the container port) the maneuvers the tugs are doing to get the ships off the dock, turned the right way and situated in the channel all happen ~2 miles upstream. It's not a small area!  Dundalk terminal, where the vehicle loading happens is closer (more like a mile) but those ships are also smaller.

[rubytue]

Mar 27, 2024 15:04:03 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 27, 2024 14:22:56 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Thank you ECB ! I don’t know why it was irritating me so much, but the several people were telling me I was wrong and that tugs are SOP at all ports, and it was an error that they weren’t. When you know, I’ve seen with my own eyes that there aren’t tugs at the bridge. I mean, someone on the internet is wrong!! 😂 (this is mostly directed at the mansplainer on FB)

WTF, are these people confused about how close the bridge is to the actual port facility??  For Seagirt (i.e the container port) the maneuvers the tugs are doing to get the ships off the dock, turned the right way and situated in the channel all happen ~2 miles upstream. It's not a small area!  Dundalk terminal, where the vehicle loading happens is closer (more like a mile) but those ships are also smaller.

I think that might be it. Dude it arguing that it’s standard for tugs to follow the ship until it exits the port. Well it did. It exited the port and was dumped in the channel. 

back away from the internet, Ruby… 🤣

[wawa]

Mar 27, 2024 15:16:40 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 27, 2024 15:04:03 GMT -5 wawa said:

WTF, are these people confused about how close the bridge is to the actual port facility??  For Seagirt (i.e the container port) the maneuvers the tugs are doing to get the ships off the dock, turned the right way and situated in the channel all happen ~2 miles upstream. It's not a small area!  Dundalk terminal, where the vehicle loading happens is closer (more like a mile) but those ships are also smaller.

I think that might be it. Dude it arguing that it’s standard for tugs to follow the ship until it exits the port. Well it did. It exited the port and was dumped in the channel. 

back away from the internet, Ruby… 🤣

Look, I support beating people with their own wrongness.  I bet they're thinking of something more tucked away.  Like our container facilities are really tiny compared to some of the big boys and we're just broadside to the channel in a very wide river.  The channel is narrow, but it's a very easy in and out in the grand scheme.  Barring major mechanical failure (um, like this) why would you need a tug to send you off in a clearly marked wide open channel??  Pilots can drive in a straight line as long as they have power!  

In contrast, the container facilities in Savannah (like 3x as many cranes as bmore, so a lot more big ass ship traffic) are like 9 miles up a 1000' wide river!  The patapsco is over a mile wide at Seagirt.  It's roomy AF compared to some other ports, so it's really apples and oranges in terms of tug ops.

[basilosaurus]

Mar 27, 2024 15:16:40 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 27, 2024 15:04:03 GMT -5 wawa said:

WTF, are these people confused about how close the bridge is to the actual port facility??  For Seagirt (i.e the container port) the maneuvers the tugs are doing to get the ships off the dock, turned the right way and situated in the channel all happen ~2 miles upstream. It's not a small area!  Dundalk terminal, where the vehicle loading happens is closer (more like a mile) but those ships are also smaller.

I think that might be it. Dude it arguing that it’s standard for tugs to follow the ship until it exits the port. Well it did. It exited the port and was dumped in the channel. 

back away from the internet, Ruby… 🤣

I think many armchair pilots think "leave the port" means gain open ocean and cannot wrap their brains around different.

In my upbringing that is what it entailed, port to open ocean, and it was a short distance. But I'm guessing these folks think they're port everglades or port miami or los angeles experts who cannot understand different ports are different.

Or more likely they're landlocked folks who've never seen anything like a commercial port and think they know best. This isn't your suddy lake with your pontoon drunk weekend.

[wawa]

Mar 27, 2024 15:58:54 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Mar 27, 2024 15:16:40 GMT -5 rubytue said:

I think that might be it. Dude it arguing that it’s standard for tugs to follow the ship until it exits the port. Well it did. It exited the port and was dumped in the channel. 

back away from the internet, Ruby… 🤣

I think many armchair pilots think "leave the port" means gain open ocean and cannot wrap their brains around different.

In my upbringing that is what it entailed, port to open ocean, and it was a short distance. But I'm guessing these folks think they're port everglades or port miami or los angeles experts who cannot understand different ports are different.

Or more likely they're landlocked folks who've never seen anything like a commercial port and think they know best. This isn't your suddy lake with your pontoon drunk weekend.

can you imagine if the tugs had to follow all the way out of the bay?  LOLOLOL.  three days later they get back....

[basilosaurus]

Mar 27, 2024 15:43:15 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 27, 2024 15:16:40 GMT -5 rubytue said:

I think that might be it. Dude it arguing that it’s standard for tugs to follow the ship until it exits the port. Well it did. It exited the port and was dumped in the channel. 

back away from the internet, Ruby… 🤣

Look, I support beating people with their own wrongness.  I bet they're thinking of something more tucked away.  Like our container facilities are really tiny compared to some of the big boys and we're just broadside to the channel in a very wide river.  The channel is narrow, but it's a very easy in and out in the grand scheme.  Barring major mechanical failure (um, like this) why would you need a tug to send you off in a clearly marked wide open channel??  Pilots can drive in a straight line as long as they have power!  

In contrast, the container facilities in Savannah (like 3x as many cranes as bmore, so a lot more big ass ship traffic) are like 9 miles up a 1000' wide river!  The patapsco is over a mile wide at Seagirt.  It's roomy AF compared to some other ports, so it's really apples and oranges in terms of tug ops.

I cannot speak to landlocked Murca which likely doesn't understanding shipping by water culturally, although they could probably school me about rail, but in S'pore with both locals, expats, and travelers who should know better, this is 100% of what kinds of questions I'm fielding (I'm American so I must have the answers!). 

I've been asked why they didn't raise the bridge knowing a ship was coming through. Why they allow foreigners to staff the boat. I've been asked why the port matters because there are so many American ports. Why if it matters so much why was it so tucked away. I have answers to all these questions, but it shows their perspective. And it does reflect gop talking points, too. That is what enrages me the most.

[rubytue]

Two recovered and identified. They think the remaining cars/bodies are encased in the debris.

From the live briefing I’m watching.

[underwaterrhymes]

The way the racists have come scuttling out for this is frankly disgusting.

[bcv513]

I have been so impressed with the Mayor of Baltimore. I had never heard about him before. A reporter asked him about plans to rebuild and the Mayor said his main concern was recovering the victims and supporting their families.

[tacokick]

Interesting bit about what might happen with the traffic slate.com/business/2024/03/baltimore-bridge-collapse-what-will-traffic-be-like.html

I think the biggest issue will be with the trucks not allowed into the city/tunnels not commuters/regular cars. As I mentioned up thread, a bridge closed near us for years with 22k daily vehicles and we were warned about massive traffic jams and nothing happened, even after they narrowed the streets leading to the area. And this wasn’t in an area where there were as many alternatives—just surface streets.

[rubytue]

Thanks for that, tacokick . That’s another topic the FB people are annoying me about.

“OMG traffic is going to be FUCKED for years”
“Whlep, guess I have to go down the shore [to get from Philly to DC]”

No. This is the least used of 4 routes from here to there. Trucks will be a problem. And traffic through the tunnels will increase some. But, my office send people from DC to Philly once a month or so, and these same people have never once taken the key bridge but are flipping out that it’s not an option.

there are a ton of people who this will affect greatly. Like everyone working at tradepoing, the Amazon deliveries from there, etc. but the regular Joe going to Philly? Nah. The retiree from NC? Not in the least. 

[basilosaurus]

Mar 27, 2024 18:39:32 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

The way the racists have come scuttling out for this is frankly disgusting.

I'm curious what kinds of racists you're seeing vs what kind I'm seeing here. I'm guessing the standard "foreigners" not realizing that's pretty much the entirety of shipping.

[underwaterrhymes]

Mar 27, 2024 20:51:33 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Mar 27, 2024 18:39:32 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

The way the racists have come scuttling out for this is frankly disgusting.

I'm curious what kinds of racists you're seeing vs what kind I'm seeing here. I'm guessing the standard "foreigners" not realizing that's pretty much the entirety of shipping.

There is a lot of racist shit against Major Brandon Scott, including them trying to use DEI as a substitute for a racist slur.

[basilosaurus]

Mar 27, 2024 20:53:22 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Mar 27, 2024 20:51:33 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm curious what kinds of racists you're seeing vs what kind I'm seeing here. I'm guessing the standard "foreigners" not realizing that's pretty much the entirety of shipping.

There is a lot of racist shit against Major Brandon Scott, including them trying to use DEI as a substitute for a racist slur.

WTF. While racism never makes sense, especially in a tragedy that seems to be purely accidental, at least have a reasonable correlation tie. I've seen blame for Chinese as Singapore is about 80% ethnically Chinese. I've seen blame for Indians due to the crew. None of that is correct or good, I want to be clear, but at least it's vaguely attached to reality of the people involved. Or is it that the US had cleared the vessel safe? 

But wtf does a black mayor or dei have anything do with any of this?

I know I'm looking for logic when racism has none.

[underwaterrhymes]

basilosaurus - it’s vile and not worth repeating. People suck.

[shauni27]

Mar 28, 2024 6:04:26 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

basilosaurus - it’s vile and not worth repeating. People suck.

I also saw someone post a conspiracy theory about how the Obamas were behind this. The way people genuinely think can be terrifying.

[ECB]

Mar 27, 2024 16:02:08 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 27, 2024 15:58:54 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I think many armchair pilots think "leave the port" means gain open ocean and cannot wrap their brains around different.

In my upbringing that is what it entailed, port to open ocean, and it was a short distance. But I'm guessing these folks think they're port everglades or port miami or los angeles experts who cannot understand different ports are different.

Or more likely they're landlocked folks who've never seen anything like a commercial port and think they know best. This isn't your suddy lake with your pontoon drunk weekend.

can you imagine if the tugs had to follow all the way out of the bay?  LOLOLOL.  three days later they get back....

my husband and i talked about even just escorting them to the key bridge - that would double a lot of their times from a 1 hour job to a 2. He said the shipping companies would refuse to pay for that! Which is what people dont understand- tugs aren’t a free service!

[ECB]

Mar 28, 2024 6:46:31 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

Mar 28, 2024 6:04:26 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

basilosaurus - it’s vile and not worth repeating. People suck.

I also saw someone post a conspiracy theory about how the Obamas were behind this. The way people genuinely think can be terrifying.

it’s insane. People immediately go to these now instead of just accepting that “shit happens” and yes, this is probably a very unfortunate- but simple- series of events. Period.

[rubytue]

Mar 28, 2024 6:46:31 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

Mar 28, 2024 6:04:26 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

basilosaurus - it’s vile and not worth repeating. People suck.

I also saw someone post a conspiracy theory about how the Obamas were behind this. The way people genuinely think can be terrifying.

A saw that one. These people should find some real use for their pattern recognition skill, because that ain’t it. 

[glw]

I'm wondering if they'll bring back ferries for a while. Lots of locals have been here since before the bridge (I didn't realize how recently it had been built!).

[neverfstop]

Shit happens and there are accidents, but there's usually a systemic or multiple failures that lead to catastrophic outcomes like this. FAA and NTSB do extensive investigations into these types of events & usually come up with a series of mistakes, poor maintenance, bad communication, whatever...that lead to a really bad "accident". I've just seen snippets, but some bridges have reinforced pillars or protective structures & they just recently finished another nearby bridge for $100M. There's talk about how "dirty fuel" is being used in many commercial applications- people are dumping fillers, toxic waste, etc into diesel to get rid of it. It sounds like some of the safety systems and plans that were in place saved many lives & hopefully a thorough investigation will lead to recommendations to prevent this or similar incidents in the future.

[wildrice]

Mar 27, 2024 16:12:45 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Mar 27, 2024 15:43:15 GMT -5 wawa said:

Look, I support beating people with their own wrongness.  I bet they're thinking of something more tucked away.  Like our container facilities are really tiny compared to some of the big boys and we're just broadside to the channel in a very wide river.  The channel is narrow, but it's a very easy in and out in the grand scheme.  Barring major mechanical failure (um, like this) why would you need a tug to send you off in a clearly marked wide open channel??  Pilots can drive in a straight line as long as they have power!  

In contrast, the container facilities in Savannah (like 3x as many cranes as bmore, so a lot more big ass ship traffic) are like 9 miles up a 1000' wide river!  The patapsco is over a mile wide at Seagirt.  It's roomy AF compared to some other ports, so it's really apples and oranges in terms of tug ops.

I cannot speak to landlocked Murca which likely doesn't understanding shipping by water culturally, although they could probably school me about rail, but in S'pore with both locals, expats, and travelers who should know better, this is 100% of what kinds of questions I'm fielding (I'm American so I must have the answers!). 

This is irrelevant to any actual discussion of the bridge, but it's been interesting being local to this and reading about it. I grew up in the land locked midwest and although Baltimore/Maryland is my adopted home now, it is interesting to learn how much shipping and even the bridge is a part of the culture and general knowledge here. It is making me remember that I'm an outsider here when I usually don't feel like one anymore! 

[rubytue]

Here is a CNN piece that talks about the conspiracy theories. Posting here is case anyone is curious about what misinformation is out there, but wanting to avoid actually typing the shit.

www.cnn.com/2024/03/28/politics/baltimore-bridge-collapse-conspiracy-theories/index.html

[spindle92]

Mar 28, 2024 6:46:31 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

Mar 28, 2024 6:04:26 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

basilosaurus - it’s vile and not worth repeating. People suck.

I also saw someone post a conspiracy theory about how the Obamas were behind this. The way people genuinely think can be terrifying.

@@@@
I also saw this ridiculous theory and then also that the ship containers were full of children.
WTF, people are soooooo sick.

[spindle92]

speaking of the conspiracy theory asshats - aka MAGA's

It hurts my heart for all the families of those who died and seems just sooo disrespectful to them.

This is bringing up a lot of tough emotions around here as MPLS had a bridge collapse in 2007.
I am just so thankful that social media wasn't as prominent back then and you didn't hear all this bs.

[SusanBAnthony]

Speaking of the Mpls bridge collapse, for those who don't remember it occurred at rush hour on a major freeway artery through downtown. It was a traffic disaster (we live right by it and H had to cross that bridge to work). The bridge is half a mile long and over a small river so obviously totally different. But, the timeline was amazing.

Aug 2007: bridge collapse
Sep- Dec 2007: design and bidding
Dec 2007: first started building
Sept 2008: bridge opened
Dec 2008: planned opening (they finished ahead of schedule)

They worked 3 shifts and had zero safety incidents. It's still a pretty awesome bridge.

Obviously almost every aspect of the Key bridge is more complex but there is hope to move a lot faster than normal bridge construction.

[Tacocat]

Mar 28, 2024 11:51:46 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Speaking of the Mpls bridge collapse, for those who don't remember it occurred at rush hour on a major freeway artery through downtown. It was a traffic disaster (we live right by it and H had to cross that bridge to work). The bridge is half a mile long and over a small river so obviously totally different. But, the timeline was amazing.

Aug 2007: bridge collapse
Dec 2007: design and bidding
Sept 2008: bridge opened
Dec 2008: planned opening (they finished ahead of schedule)

They worked 3 shifts and had zero safety incidents. It's still a pretty awesome bridge.

Obviously almost every aspect of the Key bridge is more complex but there is hope to move a lot faster than normal bridge construction.

I live locally as well and I was trying to remember how fast they rebuilt the bridge. I remember being surprised at how quickly it went up. Thanks for posting this! I still have vivid memories of that day as I lived about 3 blocks from 35W up until a year before this happened and drove over the bridge almost daily.

[glitzy07]

Mar 28, 2024 11:51:46 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Speaking of the Mpls bridge collapse, for those who don't remember it occurred at rush hour on a major freeway artery through downtown. It was a traffic disaster (we live right by it and H had to cross that bridge to work). The bridge is half a mile long and over a small river so obviously totally different. But, the timeline was amazing.

Aug 2007: bridge collapse
Dec 2007: design and bidding
Sept 2008: bridge opened
Dec 2008: planned opening (they finished ahead of schedule)

They worked 3 shifts and had zero safety incidents. It's still a pretty awesome bridge.

Obviously almost every aspect of the Key bridge is more complex but there is hope to move a lot faster than normal bridge construction.

Thanks for sharing this. I couldn't remember how long it took to rebuild. I hate that they still haven't changed the lanes on 94 near the U of M back to the regular width. It scares me every time I'm driving that stretch because I feel SO close to other cars.

I was on the Mpls bridge approximately 5 minutes before it collapsed, on my way home from work. I didn't know what happened until I got home about 15 minutes later and my husband was watching the news. He has always been leery of driving on bridges and that cemented it for him. 

[ECB]

So an update- DH took some agents to the O's game today (Go O's!!) and got some more information.

Tradepoint, which is on the old Sparrow's Point location and is right outside the bridge, is taking on what extra business they can. They can't do cargo ships - they don't have the cranes. But they can do car ships and any large bulk products- coal, sugar, etc. So their business is increasing, and that's good for DH's company - they are the only tugboats outside of the bridge!

There is absolutely a push to fast track as much of this process as they can, and while this is a VERY huge "guess", DH thinks the channel will be clear within 2 months - maybe less.

The bridge rebuild- that's probably a 5 year project.

But reopening the port shouldn't be too horribly long, and, again, Tradepoint is able to take on some of the overflow of ships.

[wawa]

Mar 27, 2024 20:18:27 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Interesting bit about what might happen with the traffic slate.com/business/2024/03/baltimore-bridge-collapse-what-will-traffic-be-like.html

I think the biggest issue will be with the trucks not allowed into the city/tunnels not commuters/regular cars. As I mentioned up thread, a bridge closed near us for years with 22k daily vehicles and we were warned about massive traffic jams and nothing happened, even after they narrowed the streets leading to the area. And this wasn’t in an area where there were as many alternatives—just surface streets.

Yes, exactly.  
The specific access for folks right there on either side and for hazmat trucks will be painful. We will have more bad traffic days than otherwise since the system as a whole will be riding closer to the tipping point (like a crash blocking a tunnel lane will spiral REALLY fast), but not every day.
Human behavior doesn't WORK like that. If every single day is an utter hours long backup nightmare with no end in sight then people who can make other choices will adjust their behavior accordingly and it'll find a certain level of equilibrium on an average day.  Cars are not water that just flows downhill - people have brains.  

I can point to half a dozen cases like what you mentioned with your local bridge. 

It's not as if we don't remove entire highway segments on purpose sometimes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeway_removal
A whole lot of related links handily collected here if anybody wants to really nerd out: reconnectaustin.com/resources/cnus-highways-to-boulevards-2/traffic-studies/