Major bridge collapse in Baltimore

[mcppalmbeach]

Have they said if it is the construction crew that are among the missing or people who were on their cars? This is such a terrible tragedy. I really feel for the pilots as well. It sounds like they tried to do what they could.

[quesyrah]

Mar 26, 2024 19:53:17 GMT -5 mcppalmbeach said:

Have they said if it is the construction crew that are among the missing or people who were on their cars? This is such a terrible tragedy. I really feel for the pilots as well. It sounds like they tried to do what they could.

According to CNN they are believed to be part of the construction crew.

[klee23]

Mar 26, 2024 19:53:17 GMT -5 mcppalmbeach said:

Have they said if it is the construction crew that are among the missing or people who were on their cars? This is such a terrible tragedy. I really feel for the pilots as well. It sounds like they tried to do what they could.

One report I read the cars that went over may have been empty. Sonar found 5 vehicles near the bridge including 3 cars, 1 cement truck and 1 passenger truck. I presume the construction crews vehicles that were parked on the bridge?

[Susie]

My mind is reeling a little thinking of the various insurance carriers, policies, indemnifications, etc. that may be involved, with a Singapore-flagged vessel, and who know what other countries involved.  I know Biden is saying the feds will fund repairs, but what does that mean really?  To pay to get it done in the meantime while those ultimately liable work that out, and then they reimburse?

It's too soon to know, but it sounds like there is a possibility that deferred maintenance on the ship could be a potential contributing factor and/or proximate cause.  Had it not lost power, it's totally conceivable that it could have stayed on course to make it through the channel unscathed.  The margins are just so tight.

[basilosaurus]

For a collapse of this magnitude, do they scrap it all and start over? Work with what remains?

Would they consider rerouting the road so the bridge can be built in a new location and start construction sooner?

I'm guessing if there's anything at all salvageable they'll do what they can to use it, but I could equally see them saying might as well start with 2024 tech. Like how people buy teardowns because renovation is more difficult and costly than new construction sometimes

[underwaterrhymes]

This article has a lot of information, including that the ship dropped anchor to try and stop and also that it was involved in an incident a few years back, which could have contributed to its mechanical issues. (It’s not clear on this, but since it mentions the grounding and the next sentence refers to an inspection that showed “propulsion and auxiliary machinery deficiencies.”


www.reuters.com/world/us/why-did-baltimore-bridge-collapse-what-do-we-know-about-ship-2024-03-26/

[mala]

Mar 27, 2024 3:46:06 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

For a collapse of this magnitude, do they scrap it all and start over? Work with what remains?

Would they consider rerouting the road so the bridge can be built in a new location and start construction sooner?

I'm guessing if there's anything at all salvageable they'll do what they can to use it, but I could equally see them saying might as well start with 2024 tech. Like how people buy teardowns because renovation is more difficult and costly than new construction sometimes

I don't think you can guarantee that the remaining pilings are in good condition after the forces exerted during the collapse. They may be able to salvage the road on the ground, but anything over the water will need to be redone. We won't know for sure though until it can be inspected, including underwater and that is not going to be an easy task. The bay water is really murky even in good conditions and to dive and inspect is very challenging in the best of times. Usually they have to bring is specialists for any dive work in the bay. As for building it in a different spot, I guess it's possible but I don't see how. It's a major city, there isn't anywhere they can go, no easy empty land anywhere near there. It's a lot of city property, the port, and a lot of private industry, including coal.

And, frankly, I think rebuilding ASAP is unlikely. Maybe they can start within a year, but even a rebuild needs to be planed and checked over. They can fast track some of it, but design and then sourcing materials can still only go so fast.

[shauni27]

I just keep thinking about how scary this is and how tragic and how huge the impacts of this are.

[ECB]

Mar 26, 2024 13:24:45 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 26, 2024 13:16:04 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I've been waiting for you to show up with the traffic analysis wawa !

Also waiting on ECB with full tug analysis lol

Ha!  I don't have much to add.  My DHs company - all their tugs were actually outside of the bridge when it collapsed.  That's good in that there is work at Tradepoint for them to do.  But they can't get back to their pier and the fuel dock is also inaccessible.  Tradepoint is providing a location for the tugs to tie up to.  But DH will have to help the crews get too and from the tugs at crew change, and so forth.  What they'll do about fuel - I don't know.  

He doesn't have any specific inside knowledge, but he assumes - as I do - that a priority is going to be placed on salvaging the center portion of the bridge first so that they can open the port ASAP.  Now- how long that really means is totally unknown right now. 

[mala]

It's going to be raining and gloomy all day, which isn't going to help assessing the aftermath.'

EDIT: I'm just going to edit in the morning update from "whats happening with shipping" youtu.be/DoPRz7wk3WY?si=sVnvDbZvkAjb-bqb

He shows maps which will show just what is accessible and what isn't and you can extrapolate why it would be incredibly difficult to just relocate 695 and build a new bridge in a different place. It does include footage of the collapse itself, just to warn anyone who doesn't want to see it.

[rubytue]

If you haven’t heard or read the police radio, and want to, I found a YouTube links this morning youtu.be/RkjZImSG7j4?si=wNomRad0su5nzbXl

I know it’s top of everyone’s mind and concerns /s, but I saw that the cruise ship that is out will be coming into Norfolk this weekend and they will bus everyone back up. 

As for relocating the bridge… that would be a MASSIVE undertaking. This is a heavily built up area, and relocating the bridge would be rerouting 695 leading up to it. You just made a 3-5 yet project 8-12 years. It’s heavily industrial on both sides, but there are homes, too. And vulnerable populations/lower income, with pockets of waterfront higher SES. I’ve attached a photo that circles where I lived 2011-2021. I say this not as a me, me, look at me affected thing, but just as a frame of reference for my comments. We moved away because it was getting more and more industrial.

Attachments:

[basilosaurus]

I figured relocation or anything left to salvage would be an extremely long shot, but I appreciate humoring my questions.

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2024 21:07:45 GMT -5 Susie said:

My mind is reeling a little thinking of the various insurance carriers, policies, indemnifications, etc. that may be involved, with a Singapore-flagged vessel, and who know what other countries involved.  I know Biden is saying the feds will fund repairs, but what does that mean really?  To pay to get it done in the meantime while those ultimately liable work that out, and then they reimburse?

It's too soon to know, but it sounds like there is a possibility that deferred maintenance on the ship could be a potential contributing factor and/or proximate cause.  Had it not lost power, it's totally conceivable that it could have stayed on course to make it through the channel unscathed.  The margins are just so tight.

There were tons of lawsuits against Skanska when one of their ships wasn’t properly secured during hurricane and smashed into the brand new Pensacola Bay Bridge during Hurricane Sally in 2020. All of them were dismissed, and to my knowledge the company and insurance didn’t pay a cent to rebuild the bridge.

So, it seems the burden on proving negligence is pretty high, but there’s definitely precedent to seek damages from these large shipping companies.

[rubytue]

Also, for anyone wanting to think or know about other tangential details. The holding pond you see in that picture between the ship and the circle, that’s where the dredge material is dumped. If I recall, they just upped the permit to make it 20 or 30 feet tall when it’s all said and done. It’s kind of fascinating. They also preserved a wetland next to it as a bird sanctuary, with some hiking trails, but it’s only open 9-4 Monday through Friday.

But, for those discussing the channel. It’s narrow, silts up quickly, and requires pretty much constant dredging to keep it operational.

[followyourarrow]

Mar 27, 2024 7:10:53 GMT -5 ECB said:

Mar 26, 2024 13:24:45 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Also waiting on ECB with full tug analysis lol

Ha!  I don't have much to add.  My DHs company - all their tugs were actually outside of the bridge when it collapsed.  That's good in that there is work at Tradepoint for them to do.  But they can't get back to their pier and the fuel dock is also inaccessible.  Tradepoint is providing a location for the tugs to tie up to.  But DH will have to help the crews get too and from the tugs at crew change, and so forth.  What they'll do about fuel - I don't know.  

He doesn't have any specific inside knowledge, but he assumes - as I do - that a priority is going to be placed on salvaging the center portion of the bridge first so that they can open the port ASAP.  Now- how long that really means is totally unknown right now. 

Off topic - I didn't realize your H worked with tugs! My FI works on a tug in the Gulf, mostly doing salvage work, or being a support vessel to offshore crews.

This is a new life to me and I'm learning.  Last night he told me he needs to change the tires on the tug and I was like uhhh, boats don't have tires??  He was referring to the ones that are used as bumpers and thought I was hilarious.

[pixy0stix]

WaPo has a full list of the deficiencies found on the ship, and all of them had been addressed/fixed passed other inspections since they were fixed.

I know people want to assign blame somewhere, but this really looks like a pure accident.

[melissa]

Mar 26, 2024 13:50:41 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 26, 2024 13:16:04 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I've been waiting for you to show up with the traffic analysis wawa !

LOL. My prediction is that give it a few weeks to settle and highway traffic won't really be that big of a deal. The tunnels have always taken the brunt, and since the Harbor Tunnel Thruway had been under construction for ages but is done, AND we've got the high speed tolling in place now there's a little bit of slack in the system compared to 4 years ago.  it will be worse than typical, and definitely faster to get ugly on bad days but not carmageddon on a daily basis.  Anybody who can avoid it by working from home while it's bad will do so too, so that'll help. The pandemic traffic silver lining - a lot more people can just choose not to commute on an ad hoc basis than used to be the case.

I am guessing, but educated guessing.  Nobody has paid me to analyze it so I'm not looking at hard numbers. 

I'm still reading through this thread but wanted to comment on this real quick.  I work for a federal government that is making us return to the office three days a week so expect more traffic in the next two weeks.

[basilosaurus]

Well let the racism begin.

First local headline that just came across my feed (I'm currently in Singapore) was Singapore flagged ship that crashed had Indian crew.

This from a Malaysian English language paper I occasionally read that reports on regional issues. I wouldn't call it good journalism, but it's not tabloid either.

Eta the content in the article was not at all inflammatory. It is a statement of fact, said all accounted for. But the headline is all many will read

[aurora]

Mar 27, 2024 5:36:37 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

This article has a lot of information, including that the ship dropped anchor to try and stop and also that it was involved in an incident a few years back, which could have contributed to its mechanical issues. (It’s not clear on this, but since it mentions the grounding and the next sentence refers to an inspection that showed “propulsion and auxiliary machinery deficiencies.”


www.reuters.com/world/us/why-did-baltimore-bridge-collapse-what-do-we-know-about-ship-2024-03-26/

The whole thing is heartbreaking, of course, but nuggets like dropping anchor to give more time to close the bridge (in addition to the aforementioned heroics of the construction workers who stopped traffic) are amazing examples of level heads under pressure that helped save lives.

I've worked in a few high pressure (life safety) situations and 5 minutes is such an incredibly short time when it comes to disasters. It can be so hard to think clearly and act when all of your adrenaline is surging.

ETA corrected autocorrect

[rubytue]

Mar 27, 2024 9:30:46 GMT -5 aurora said:

Mar 27, 2024 5:36:37 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

This article has a lot of information, including that the ship dropped anchor to try and stop and also that it was involved in an incident a few years back, which could have contributed to its mechanical issues. (It’s not clear on this, but since it mentions the grounding and the next sentence refers to an inspection that showed “propulsion and auxiliary machinery deficiencies.”


www.reuters.com/world/us/why-did-baltimore-bridge-collapse-what-do-we-know-about-ship-2024-03-26/

The whole thing is heartbreaking, of course, but nuggets like dropping anchor to give more time to close the bridge (in addition to the aforementioned heroics of the construction workers who stopped traffic) are amazing examples of level heads under pressure that helped save lives.

I've worked in a few high pressure (life safety) situations and 5 minutes is such an incredibly short time when it comes to disasters. It can be so hard to think clearly and act when all of your adrenaline is surging.

ETA corrected autocorrect

I have seen the bolded mentioned a couple times here and on Reddit, but I am curious where it’s coming from.  I haven’t seen it reported anywhere. And the audio of the bridge authorities said that the port police who monitor the bridge stopped traffic and were preparing to ride up and alert the crew once they could, and then it fell. Nothing I’ve read suggests that the construction crew even knew what was happening (other than what they saw with their own eyes). 

edit to add: and I meant this with absolutely no disrespect to the crew, who were all immigrants, and it’s tragic. 

[aprilsails]

Those large ships are staffed by such small crews that it's amazing what they were able to do in that time period. I'm certain since they had just left the dock that their full crew was awake and on deck so to speak. It must have been insanely stressful for them as well.

An absolute disaster.

[aurora]

Mar 27, 2024 10:02:14 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 27, 2024 9:30:46 GMT -5 aurora said:

The whole thing is heartbreaking, of course, but nuggets like dropping anchor to give more time to close the bridge (in addition to the aforementioned heroics of the construction workers who stopped traffic) are amazing examples of level heads under pressure that helped save lives.

I've worked in a few high pressure (life safety) situations and 5 minutes is such an incredibly short time when it comes to disasters. It can be so hard to think clearly and act when all of your adrenaline is surging.

ETA corrected autocorrect

I have seen the bolded mentioned a couple times here and on Reddit, but I am curious where it’s coming from.  I haven’t seen it reported anywhere. And the audio of the bridge authorities said that the port police who monitor the bridge stopped traffic and were preparing to ride up and alert the crew once they could, and then it fell. Nothing I’ve read suggests that the construction crew even knew what was happening (other than what they saw with their own eyes). 

edit to add: and I meant this with absolutely no disrespect to the crew, who were all immigrants, and it’s tragic. 

Hmmm, I thought it was related members of the crew working at either end of the bridge, but I don't remember where I read that. Maybe it was a totally different thing? Will come back if I can find a source.

[mala]

Mar 27, 2024 10:04:47 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Those large ships are staffed by such small crews that it's amazing what they were able to do in that time period. I'm certain since they had just left the dock that their full crew was awake and on deck so to speak. It must have been insanely stressful for them as well.

An absolute disaster.

They stage crew at the anchors while traversing in and out of port & bridges so they can drop an anchor and try to arrest momentum in an emergency. It sounds like the crew were where they were supposed to be and did what they were trained to do in an emergency. It just wasn't enough this time.

[quesyrah]

Mar 27, 2024 10:06:18 GMT -5 aurora said:

Mar 27, 2024 10:02:14 GMT -5 rubytue said:

I have seen the bolded mentioned a couple times here and on Reddit, but I am curious where it’s coming from.  I haven’t seen it reported anywhere. And the audio of the bridge authorities said that the port police who monitor the bridge stopped traffic and were preparing to ride up and alert the crew once they could, and then it fell. Nothing I’ve read suggests that the construction crew even knew what was happening (other than what they saw with their own eyes). 

edit to add: and I meant this with absolutely no disrespect to the crew, who were all immigrants, and it’s tragic. 

Hmmm, I thought it was related members of the crew working at either end of the bridge, but I don't remember where I read that. Maybe it was a totally different thing? Will come back if I can find a source.

This is what I heard on CNN last night as well. That it was the construction crew that stopped the traffic.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2024 10:10:57 GMT -5 quesyrah said:

Mar 27, 2024 10:06:18 GMT -5 aurora said:

Hmmm, I thought it was related members of the crew working at either end of the bridge, but I don't remember where I read that. Maybe it was a totally different thing? Will come back if I can find a source.

This is what I heard on CNN last night as well. That it was the construction crew that stopped the traffic.

I heard that yesterday as well (and posted about it above), but today the Governor was interviewed on the today show and he said that first responders stopped traffic and he didn’t confirm whether or not the construction workers were aware of the extent of the situation, and wouldn’t comment about what actions were taken to try to get them off the bridge.

It also sounds like most of the construction workers were immigrants.

[ECB]

Mar 27, 2024 9:03:37 GMT -5 followyourarrow said:

Mar 27, 2024 7:10:53 GMT -5 ECB said:

Ha!  I don't have much to add.  My DHs company - all their tugs were actually outside of the bridge when it collapsed.  That's good in that there is work at Tradepoint for them to do.  But they can't get back to their pier and the fuel dock is also inaccessible.  Tradepoint is providing a location for the tugs to tie up to.  But DH will have to help the crews get too and from the tugs at crew change, and so forth.  What they'll do about fuel - I don't know.  

He doesn't have any specific inside knowledge, but he assumes - as I do - that a priority is going to be placed on salvaging the center portion of the bridge first so that they can open the port ASAP.  Now- how long that really means is totally unknown right now. 

Off topic - I didn't realize your H worked with tugs! My FI works on a tug in the Gulf, mostly doing salvage work, or being a support vessel to offshore crews.

This is a new life to me and I'm learning.  Last night he told me he needs to change the tires on the tug and I was like uhhh, boats don't have tires??  He was referring to the ones that are used as bumpers and thought I was hilarious.

Yup!  2nd career!  He got into it about 14/ 15 years ago.  Started as a deckhand and made his way up to Captain.  Ran his own boat for about 2 years, then the GM position opened up shoreside and he applied and got it.  He's been in this role for about 1.5 years now.  In all honesty - he wants to go back to the boat!  He worked 6 months out of the year and made almost what he makes now.

But - I think until our son is out of highschool (about 3 years to go!), he's going to stick with the management side of things.  Being home every night and on the weekends is the right call for right now! 

[rubytue]

Ooo, I wonder if this is where the confusion is coming from, 

Both officers were working overtime construction detail, which officers are normally assigned to at construction projects throughout the state to keep crews and travelers safe by assisting with road closures and other needs, Kruszynski said.

www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/03/27/baltimore-key-bridge-collapse-news-updates/#link-KMEQLLSRXVGEPNCGJIKFKNI4UI

more, bc that may be a paywalled link

One officer was stationed at the base on each side of the bridge, according to Kruszynski. Once the pilot of the ship put out the mayday and the officers received it, “they immediately sprang into action,” Kruszynski said.
“Their first instincts were to stop all traffic from getting up onto the bridge, one on each side,” Kruszynski said. “There’s no doubt that their actions saved lives. There are people alive today that most likely would have perished when that bridge came down if they hadn’t stopped traffic.”
Before the collapse, one of the officers was about to go up onto the bridge himself to try to get the crew off, Kruszynski said, but there wasn’t enough time. Since the officer was holding up traffic, he had to wait for another officer to relieve him before going up, or else cars would start moving again, Kruszynski said.
“He was waiting for another officer to hold the traffic so he could run up there and get the rest of the crew down,” Kruszynski said. “But unfortunately … there was just no time to do all that at once.”
The officers are safe, Kruszynski said.
“They are heroes,” Kruszynski said, echoing Gov. Wes Moore’s comments. “Because without a doubt, people went home that night, people from the public went home, because they acted so quickly. More people would have most likely perished had they not done what they did.”

[rubytue]

Mar 26, 2024 11:56:54 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

Mar 26, 2024 11:41:42 GMT -5 rubytue said:

The tugs get the ships on and off the pier. This ship left the pier 40 minutes prior. It was under its own power.

Not necessarily.  

ECB this is the discussion I was kind of hoping you’d have some second hand insight into 😁 Fresh on my mind because someone on FB is saying the same thing (that this is standard at major ports and why weren’t their tugs?!). From what I have seen, it’s not standard in Baltimore. 

[ECB]

Mar 27, 2024 13:23:33 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 26, 2024 11:56:54 GMT -5 mrsd2006 said:

Not necessarily.  

ECB this is the discussion I was kind of hoping you’d have some second hand insight into 😁 Fresh on my mind because someone on FB is saying the same thing (that this is standard at major ports and why weren’t their tugs?!). From what I have seen, it’s not standard in Baltimore. 

so, what you said is the norm. The tugs will pull the ship off the dock, get it to the channel, then let it go. Barges are an exception, and there can be other exceptions. But the norm is to take it off and let it go.

This is such a unique situation. Ships don’t need escorts that far. If you were to tally up how much it would cost for tugs to escort to the bridge - it would be crazy. The shipping company has to pay for the tugs time (just the fuel alone would be so much more), the with longer running times - the harbor would probably need more tugs in order to get the work done. There’s a domino effect.

Oh, and let’s not even talk about the issues around crewing! When DH started 15 years ago, they ran most of the time with 4 crew (which for his company is the standard). They now have such a hard time finding crew that they often run with 3 people - and that then impacts how long the boat can operate.

[rubytue]

Thank you ECB ! I don’t know why it was irritating me so much, but the several people were telling me I was wrong and that tugs are SOP at all ports, and it was an error that they weren’t. When you know, I’ve seen with my own eyes that there aren’t tugs at the bridge. I mean, someone on the internet is wrong!! 😂 (this is mostly directed at the mansplainer on FB)