Debate Thread - 6/27/24

[notsopicky]

The takeaway from the last 8 years is simple: we are no longer voting for the presidency. We are voting for 1) The Supreme Court and 2) the administration. If Trump wins, he has already said out loud that he's going scorched earth (Project 2025), and we already know everything we need to about his Court appointments and "only the best" 🤢 people in his administration.

This election is no longer about the office of the President--it's about the Court and the folks running things behind the scenes. With Trump, we will full on be back living in 1950, with civil rights, women's rights, LGBTQIA+ rights, human rights, environmental stewardship, regulations that protect people, taking care of people, gun control measures, education opportunity, etc. etc. etc. literally dumped in a landfill.

It is all terrifying, a colossal dumpster fire.

[sakoro]

Jun 28, 2024 7:04:48 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Jun 28, 2024 6:56:42 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

If you all get Trump because people are idiotic enough not to vote for Biden, then I hope you recognise that your world will become unbelievably horrible for many, many people.

Right? Like who are these people who were going to vote for Biden, watched the debate and now are like, nahhhh.  This narrative just doesn't make sense.  If they were going to vote for Biden before they still are now.  If they say that this changed their mind, they were never going to vote for him in the first place and were looking for any reason not to.

Who wins the election is all in the turnout. Less motivated democrats and independents won’t make the effort to turn out to vote, canvas, donate and campaign for a candidate they feel is past it. They will bury their heads in the sand and prepare for the inevitable — Trump 2.0 and the end of democracy.

[morecoffeeplease]

Trump is coming to my area today. The excitement in southern va is scary.

I couldn’t watch last night because I live in a red area and it’s depressing enough.

I have no faith there won’t be a Trump presidency. I was hanging on to hope that I felt this way because I live in a red area but last night isn’t helping.

[jinkies]

Elections are not won by the die hard, educated voters turning out to vote. They are won by generating enough excitement that people who aren't passionate or super educated about politics get to the polls.

I don't understand it at all, but Trump generates excitement for his base. Biden doesn't generate excitement for his base, let alone for people who don't follow politics closely and just vote because they think they should/ their friends told them to/ they want the sticker.

I think turnout will be low in general, and I think Dems are cooked.

I hope I'm wrong.

[sonrisa]

Jun 28, 2024 6:53:36 GMT -5 curbsideprophet said:

Jun 27, 2024 21:07:38 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

Step aside for who, exactly?

,

You may be able to convince some people to vote for an administration but some will just not vote. This administration has abandoned many.

This is a ridiculous perspective.

Every community Biden has ‘abandoned’ was also damaged by Trump. Even the MAGA loonies used to complain he was ‘hurting the wrong people’ but now all they remember is their glorious almost coup.

This is t a lesser of the two evils situation. I don’t agree with some things Biden has done or our country is doing. But on every single one of those, I am pissed because Biden is doing something similar or a milder version of the bullshit we can expect from Trump.

There is going to be a presidency if you sit out, it’s going to be Trump.

[rubytue]

Jun 28, 2024 0:07:59 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Jun 27, 2024 22:44:21 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

You really think that would work between now and November? Lol. No.


Our options are to: 1. Support and rally behind Biden, stronger than ever, or we get Trump.

Did we not learn our lesson before?!?

Focus on the issues and the what Trump brings…Will birth control be available for those who need it, will children be separated at the border and treated inhumanly, will Putin have access to all of our top secret and classified information, when his term is up and he decides to stay in the office and says he’s immune from doing otherwise..

Yes, I DO think it’s possible. Incredibly difficult? Absolutely. I sure as hell hope that SOMEONE has thought of some kind of emergency backup plan! Both candidates are at the age where anything could change in the blink of an eye. We’re naive to not acknowledge that.

In this election, I’m voting for the Administration. Biden will absolutely surround himself with good people and have good policies, and he will absolutely have my vote in November. But for me personally, in conversations I’m having in person with people whose votes are still in play (largely trying to convince them to vote instead of not choosing anyone) in my very purple area, I will not pretend to think that he’s still as sharp as he was 40 years ago and that I’m excited that he is the D candidate. However, i absolutely trust that he has good people surrounding him. I’m not in charge of D Messaging, only my own. The official party line needs to be different, obviously, but in my circle, I only hurt my own credibility if I don’t *also* acknowledge his shortfalls & that I do wish we had someone different…but that he will still get my vote in November without a bit of hesitation.And then I get a chance to explain why. If I go in preaching that he’s the best option in the history of the world, people shut down.

I’m with you, Lilac. The polling is not looking good right now. There was some poll I read about how more people trust Trump to protect democracy. WTF. That is the world we are living in. I have a handful of good friends in their 20s, and their jadedness is high. In the same way we realize that you are voting for an administration not a person, but it took age and wisdom to get there. We have to work in the system we have, not the one we want. And looking around, the system is that people want charisma and the fucking electoral college system means we need to have someone that can win over people who do vote for a person, not an administration, in a whole bunch of states without many people. 

[laladypoet]

Jun 28, 2024 8:21:38 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jun 28, 2024 6:53:36 GMT -5 curbsideprophet said:

,

You may be able to convince some people to vote for an administration but some will just not vote. This administration has abandoned many.

This is a ridiculous perspective.

Every community Biden has ‘abandoned’ was also damaged by Trump. Even the MAGA loonies used to complain he was ‘hurting the wrong people’ but now all they remember is their glorious almost coup.

This is t a lesser of the two evils situation. I don’t agree with some things Biden has done or our country is doing. But on every single one of those, I am pissed because Biden is doing something similar or a milder version of the bullshit we can expect from Trump.

There is going to be a presidency if you sit out, it’s going to be Trump.

just because it's ridiculous doesn't mean it's not a widely-held consensus among democrats. I don't know how if you're on social media but it's scary how many people who voted for Biden last time will not this time. Palestine, not codifying Roe v Wade, not expanding the court. these are all things people put on Biden and for those and other reasons have said they will not vote for him. even though you think it's stupid doesn't make it wrong. many people aren't as politically-literate as people here, and the democrats are HORRIBLE about messaging. if anyone is to blame, it's the democrats for sucking at their job right now.

[heat40]

I didn’t watch. I hear the concern. But we will not throw a Hail Mary. He is the candidate and I am voting for an entire administration not one person. As we’ve seen, our lives depend on an entire administration, an entire government apparatus, that will 1000% be destroyed if Trump gets anywhere near it again. I don’t care if he is hooked up to a machine come November, I will vote Biden period. I would also caution that social media is not the real world.
Dem ticket straight up and down no matter what. THAT is the message.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 28, 2024 8:55:59 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Jun 28, 2024 8:21:38 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

This is a ridiculous perspective.

Every community Biden has ‘abandoned’ was also damaged by Trump. Even the MAGA loonies used to complain he was ‘hurting the wrong people’ but now all they remember is their glorious almost coup.

This is t a lesser of the two evils situation. I don’t agree with some things Biden has done or our country is doing. But on every single one of those, I am pissed because Biden is doing something similar or a milder version of the bullshit we can expect from Trump.

There is going to be a presidency if you sit out, it’s going to be Trump.

just because it's ridiculous doesn't mean it's not a widely-held consensus among democrats. I don't know how if you're on social media but it's scary how many people who voted for Biden last time will not this time. Palestine, not codifying Roe v Wade, not expanding the court. these are all things people put on Biden and for those and other reasons have said they will not vote for him. even though you think it's stupid doesn't make it wrong. many people aren't as politically-literate as people here, and the democrats are HORRIBLE about messaging. if anyone is to blame, it's the democrats for sucking at their job right now.

Ok, but you're also the person that posted about the D's shooting themselves in the foot. The Biden administration CAN'T codify Roe vs Wade. There's been a few attempts in congress that have failed, and the presidential arm can't do it. At all. The same with expanding the court. That is a pie in the sky dream that has many challenges that ALSO can't be done by any administration. This is the fucking "the president can forgive all student debt" idiocy that ultra progressive dems had been pushing that, in the real world, couldn't be completed by any president.

I'm pissed as hell that people don't understand, fundamentally, how our government works.

[Bad Dingo]

Bolding mine.  It's crazy to me, Republicans saw their candidate stand up there and lie the whole time and they are all - yup, he's our guy <3 <3!  Will anyone ask them how they feel about his lies?  How is this the Democratic party's messaging problem? I truly don't get it.  People believe what they want to believe, the information is out there.  The truth just isn't sexy or fun, it's boring and wordy policy that is often slow and mundane.  We don't need better messaging, we need people to actually care about other people and the world around them.

heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/june-27-2024

Tonight was the first debate between President Joe Biden and presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, and by far the most striking thing about the debate was the overwhelming focus among pundits immediately afterward about Biden’s appearance and soft, hoarse voice as he rattled off statistics and events. Virtually unmentioned was the fact that Trump lied and rambled incoherently, ignored questions to say whatever he wanted; refused to acknowledge the events of January 6, 2021; and refused to commit to accepting the result of the 2024 presidential election, finally saying he would accept it only if it met his standards for fairness.

Immediately after the debate, there were calls for Biden to drop out of the race, but aside from the fact that the only time a presidential candidate has ever done that—in 1968—it threw the race into utter confusion and the president’s party lost, Biden needed to demonstrate that his mental capacity is strong in order to push back on the Republicans’ insistence that he is incapable of being president. That, he did, thoroughly. Biden began with a weak start but hit his stride as the evening wore on. Indeed, he covered his bases too thoroughly, listing the many accomplishments of his administration in such a hurry that he was sometimes hard to understand.

In contrast, Trump came out strong but faded and became less coherent over time. His entire performance was either lies or rambling non-sequiturs. He lied so incessantly throughout the evening that it took CNN fact-checker Daniel Dale almost three minutes, speaking quickly, to get through the list.

Trump said that some Democratic states allow people to execute babies after they’re born and that every legal scholar wanted Roe v. Wade overturned—both fantastical lies. He said that the deficit is at its highest level ever and that the U.S. trade deficit is at its highest ever: both of those things happened during his administration. He lied that there were no terrorist attacks during his presidency; there were many. He said that Biden wants to quadruple people’s taxes—this is “pure fiction,” according to Dale—and lied that his tax cuts paid for themselves; they have, in fact, added trillions of dollars to the national debt.

Dale went on: Trump lied that the U.S. has provided more aid to Ukraine than Europe has when it’s the other way around, and he was off by close to $100 billion when he named the amount the U.S. has provided to Ukraine. He was off by millions when he talked about how many migrants have crossed the border under Biden, and falsely claimed that some of Biden’s policies—like funding historically Black colleges and universities (HBCUs) and reducing the price of insulin to $35 a month—were his own accomplishments.

There is no point in going on, because virtually everything he said was a lie. As Jake Lahut of the Daily Beast recorded, he also was all over the map. “On January 6,” Trump said, “we had a great border.” To explain how he would combat opioid addiction, he veered off into talking points about immigration and said his administration “bought the best dog.” He boasted about acing a cognitive test and that he had just recently won two golf club tournaments without mentioning that they were at his own golf courses. “To do that, you have to be quite smart and you have to be able to hit the ball a long way,” he said. “I can do it.”

As Lahut recorded, Trump said this: “Clean water and air. We had it. We had the H2O best numbers ever, and we were using all forms of energy during my 4 years. Best environmental numbers ever, they gave me the statistic [sic.] before I walked on stage actually.”

Trump also directly accused Biden of his own failings and claimed Biden’s own strengths, saying, for example, that Biden, who has enacted the most sweeping legislation of any president since at least Lyndon Johnson, couldn’t get anything done while he, who accomplished only tax cuts, was more effective. He responded to the calling out of his own criminal convictions by saying that Biden “could be a convicted felon,” and falsely stating: “This man is a criminal.” And, repeatedly, Trump called America a “failing nation” and described it as a hellscape.

It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.  [more at link]

[laladypoet]

Jun 28, 2024 9:24:16 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 28, 2024 8:55:59 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

just because it's ridiculous doesn't mean it's not a widely-held consensus among democrats. I don't know how if you're on social media but it's scary how many people who voted for Biden last time will not this time. Palestine, not codifying Roe v Wade, not expanding the court. these are all things people put on Biden and for those and other reasons have said they will not vote for him. even though you think it's stupid doesn't make it wrong. many people aren't as politically-literate as people here, and the democrats are HORRIBLE about messaging. if anyone is to blame, it's the democrats for sucking at their job right now.

Ok, but you're also the person that posted about the D's shooting themselves in the foot. The Biden administration CAN'T codify Roe vs Wade. There's been a few attempts in congress that have failed, and the presidential arm can't do it. At all. The same with expanding the court. That is a pie in the sky dream that has many challenges that ALSO can't be done by any administration. This is the fucking "the president can forgive all student debt" idiocy that ultra progressive dems had been pushing that, in the real world, couldn't be completed by any president.

I'm pissed as hell that people don't understand, fundamentally, how our government works.

yes, I wish people understood this too. but they don't. and the dems aren't helping themselves with their messaging/lack of messaging/combating misinformation. and it sucks because our content is so good.

[rubytue]

Jun 28, 2024 7:04:48 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Jun 28, 2024 6:56:42 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

If you all get Trump because people are idiotic enough not to vote for Biden, then I hope you recognise that your world will become unbelievably horrible for many, many people.

Right? Like who are these people who were going to vote for Biden, watched the debate and now are like, nahhhh.  This narrative just doesn't make sense.  If they were going to vote for Biden before they still are now.  If they say that this changed their mind, they were never going to vote for him in the first place and were looking for any reason not to.

I’d say we need to win over the voters that are “undecided”, meaning they are voting for trump but don’t want to admit it. People like my friend who votes R because she “doesn’t follow politics” and “daddy said the republicans are the way to go.”  So many eye rolls, but there are plenty of those out there. We need these people to see they have an option.

[1confused1]

Maybe we need to have the debate on Friday at 1pm because Biden sounds great at his rally in North Carolina right now.

[basilosaurus]

Jun 28, 2024 5:53:03 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Jun 27, 2024 22:01:31 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Peanut gallery would occasionally praise drumpf for "a solid point", "great thing to say" because he delivers his 100% bs with the complete brazen confidence of a pathological liar

Why are you with this person and watching the debate with them?

You very clearly have never lived overseas or outside your bubble. We often have people that are anathema to our views.

I will not defend my occasional friend as I think his statements are terrible. I will say this is a very spart person, and this is his experienced, so I think it's relvelent to share here. I do think it's revelent that smart people are victim to thi propaganda of trump. 

[underwaterrhymes]

Jun 28, 2024 12:43:34 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Jun 28, 2024 5:53:03 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Why are you with this person and watching the debate with them?

You very clearly have never lived overseas or outside your bubble. We often have people that are anathema to our views.

I will not defend my occasional friend as I think his statements are terrible. I will say this is a very spart person, and this is his experienced, so I think it's relvelent to share here. I do think it's revelent that smart people are victim to thi propaganda of trump. 

I have lived overseas twice. And we know people who support Trump. However, we have made our views very clear to them and I would never watch a debate with any of them.

You are free to engage with whomever you like, but I hope you are pushing back on their views.

[underwaterrhymes]

Heather Cox Richardson has an excellent analysis of last night.

heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/june-27-2024

[pixy0stix]

In case anyone is interested in the fact check of the debate - www.politifact.com/article/2024/jun/28/2024-presidential-debate-fact-check-biden-trump/

[notsopicky]

Jun 28, 2024 12:30:05 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Maybe we need to have the debate on Friday at 1pm because Biden sounds great at his rally in North Carolina right now.

I literally came back into this thread to say exactly this. WTAF happened last night? He is super coherent, fired up, etc. NOW, when he needed to be THIS Joe Biden LAST NIGHT. 

[cous0226]

Jun 28, 2024 13:42:10 GMT -5 notsopicky said:

Jun 28, 2024 12:30:05 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Maybe we need to have the debate on Friday at 1pm because Biden sounds great at his rally in North Carolina right now.

I literally came back into this thread to say exactly this. WTAF happened last night? He is super coherent, fired up, etc. NOW, when he needed to be THIS Joe Biden LAST NIGHT. 

Same like wtf. It is so confusing but unfortunately the debate was probably heavy viewed last night and sometimes it’s hard to change opinions. I just don’t know wtf happened last night. They had him at camp David for a week. Was he overly tired? He just wasn’t into it and I could see it within seconds of just walking to the podium last night.

[sent]

Jun 28, 2024 9:26:50 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.  [more at link]

Why is "Gish Gallop" not all over the headlines?

(rhetorical question. I'm impressed there is a name for this.)

[lilac05]

Jun 28, 2024 13:42:10 GMT -5 notsopicky said:

Jun 28, 2024 12:30:05 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Maybe we need to have the debate on Friday at 1pm because Biden sounds great at his rally in North Carolina right now.

I literally came back into this thread to say exactly this. WTAF happened last night? He is super coherent, fired up, etc. NOW, when he needed to be THIS Joe Biden LAST NIGHT. 

It started at 9PM. That’s LATE for most people. I think most people have considerably more energy at 1PM than 9PM. If I remember correctly, Trump is a known night owl. That may actually be his best time of day.

[lilac05]

Jun 28, 2024 17:30:51 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Jun 28, 2024 16:51:14 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

It started at 9PM. That’s LATE for most people. I think most people have considerably more energy at 1PM than 9PM. If I remember correctly, Trump is a known night owl. That may actually be his best time of day.

I don’t disagree, but POTUS should be able to be those things at 9pm.

Agree, completely! I’m just thinking it could be why there was such a stark difference. We need a president who can form coherent responses at any time of any day, when needed. This wasn’t a surprise 3AM press conference!

[basilosaurus]

Jun 28, 2024 12:46:11 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Jun 28, 2024 12:43:34 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

You very clearly have never lived overseas or outside your bubble. We often have people that are anathema to our views.

I will not defend my occasional friend as I think his statements are terrible. I will say this is a very spart person, and this is his experienced, so I think it's relvelent to share here. I do think it's revelent that smart people are victim to thi propaganda of trump. 

I have lived overseas twice. And we know people who support Trump. However, we have made our views very clear to them and I would never watch a debate with any of them.

You are free to engage with whomever you like, but I hope you are pushing back on their views.

OK, of course I am pushing back! This includes threatening walking away and getting a taxi (we ended with a truce to not speak our thoughts while it played). But it's weird how sometimes it's such a sneak attack. You can spend 3 hours in wonderful conversation, offer a ride to their hotel, then they say Tre Gowdy is their hero while in the car (very true story) with no prior indication.

I thought it would be instructional in seeing how an outsider views such things. It was. And it was paintful, and I did put a stop to it after about 20 minutes. My solace is they cannot vote and probably cannot influence anyone with voting. It does tell me a helluva lot about perception overseas which is maybe of value even if it hurts my soul.

Perception is highly shaped by fox and worse. People do truly view drumpf as entertaining, charismatic. I only see him as a disgusting shitpig charlatan. It's fascinating if I were an alien watching from the skies. It's terrifying to be on terra firma.

I'm sorry I thought your position came from lack of experience. 

[erbear]

Jun 29, 2024 1:07:26 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Jun 28, 2024 12:46:11 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I have lived overseas twice. And we know people who support Trump. However, we have made our views very clear to them and I would never watch a debate with any of them.

You are free to engage with whomever you like, but I hope you are pushing back on their views.

OK, of course I am pushing back! This includes threatening walking away and getting a taxi (we ended with a truce to not speak our thoughts while it played). But it's weird how sometimes it's such a sneak attack. You can spend 3 hours in wonderful conversation, offer a ride to their hotel, then they say Tre Gowdy is their hero while in the car (very true story) with no prior indication.

I thought it would be instructional in seeing how an outsider views such things. It was. And it was paintful, and I did put a stop to it after about 20 minutes. My solace is they cannot vote and probably cannot influence anyone with voting. It does tell me a helluva lot about perception overseas which is maybe of value even if it hurts my soul.

Perception is highly shaped by fox and worse. People do truly view drumpf as entertaining, charismatic. I only see him as a disgusting shitpig charlatan. It's fascinating if I were an alien watching from the skies. It's terrifying to be on terra firma.

I'm sorry I thought your position came from lack of experience. 

Interesting. I have put in some time overseas as well and I do talk politics with people often. I have never once heard someone say anything positive about Trump — it’s always disbelief that he gets a microphone in the US. I said this in a different post but I am in Denmark and people here are terrified of a Trump presidency — they think without US support, Russia will start invading.

[klingklang77]

Jun 29, 2024 2:16:31 GMT -5 erbear said:

Jun 29, 2024 1:07:26 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

OK, of course I am pushing back! This includes threatening walking away and getting a taxi (we ended with a truce to not speak our thoughts while it played). But it's weird how sometimes it's such a sneak attack. You can spend 3 hours in wonderful conversation, offer a ride to their hotel, then they say Tre Gowdy is their hero while in the car (very true story) with no prior indication.

I thought it would be instructional in seeing how an outsider views such things. It was. And it was paintful, and I did put a stop to it after about 20 minutes. My solace is they cannot vote and probably cannot influence anyone with voting. It does tell me a helluva lot about perception overseas which is maybe of value even if it hurts my soul.

Perception is highly shaped by fox and worse. People do truly view drumpf as entertaining, charismatic. I only see him as a disgusting shitpig charlatan. It's fascinating if I were an alien watching from the skies. It's terrifying to be on terra firma.

I'm sorry I thought your position came from lack of experience. 

Interesting. I have put in some time overseas as well and I do talk politics with people often. I have never once heard someone say anything positive about Trump — it’s always disbelief that he gets a microphone in the US. I said this in a different post but I am in Denmark and people here are terrified of a Trump presidency — they think without US support, Russia will start invading.

I teach German Bundeswehr soldiers and they are also worried about a Trump presidency. I am also worried about a Trump presidency for obvious reasons, but mostly because of the Ukraine war. The Ukrainian soldiers are not good now from what I have seen. 

[basilosaurus]

Shit I realize how condescending I sounded there about lack of experience. It truly was not intended.

[underwaterrhymes]

Jun 29, 2024 1:07:26 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Jun 28, 2024 12:46:11 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I have lived overseas twice. And we know people who support Trump. However, we have made our views very clear to them and I would never watch a debate with any of them.

You are free to engage with whomever you like, but I hope you are pushing back on their views.

OK, of course I am pushing back! This includes threatening walking away and getting a taxi (we ended with a truce to not speak our thoughts while it played). But it's weird how sometimes it's such a sneak attack. You can spend 3 hours in wonderful conversation, offer a ride to their hotel, then they say Tre Gowdy is their hero while in the car (very true story) with no prior indication.

I thought it would be instructional in seeing how an outsider views such things. It was. And it was paintful, and I did put a stop to it after about 20 minutes. My solace is they cannot vote and probably cannot influence anyone with voting. It does tell me a helluva lot about perception overseas which is maybe of value even if it hurts my soul.

Perception is highly shaped by fox and worse. People do truly view drumpf as entertaining, charismatic. I only see him as a disgusting shitpig charlatan. It's fascinating if I were an alien watching from the skies. It's terrifying to be on terra firma.

I'm sorry I thought your position came from lack of experience. 

I guess I was confused because you expressed gratitude you only see this person once a month. Is the relationship worth it? It stresses me out immensely to read praise of him and hearing it in person is many times worse. This would not be something that would be healthy for me at all, which is the only reason I brought it up.

Like I said, we have people in our lives who are Trump fans, but we have made it EXPRESSLY clear, that there will be no praise of him or his ideals in our presence. And I am not shy about letting people know they have said something offensive, so they tread carefully. We have eliminated people from our lives who have nothing else going for them or who are unable to keep themselves from saying ignorant bullshit.

FWIW, both times I lived overseas were pre-Trump. But the first time was when I was in the Peace Corps in the Caribbean during the whole hanging chads debacle. My homestay family expressed shock that anyone would vote for Bush and were skeptical he’d get enough votes to win. I had to explain the electoral college to them, a system they thought was utter bullshit. Not one person I talked to there thought Bush was a worthy candidate (although I’m certain there were some). It’s been 23 years and I am no longer in touch, but I would imagine they’d be significantly more horrified by Trump.

The second time was in Bulgaria during the end of the second Bush term five years post 9/11. No one was talking politics much at that time, but I am guessing that a post-Soviet country likely has strong anti-Trump feelings as well.

And our family in Costa Rica (which includes both my US-born FIL and the rest Costa-Rican born in-laws) think he’s an evil asshole too. My sister’s husband is Ecuadorian and he and his family think Trump is terrible, as well.

All anecdotal, of course, but I say this because we have lived in four states and four countries between my H and me. We have traveled extensively and have family that live in countries outside the U.S. We also live in a very diverse community in a blue state, so while we definitely choose to live in a state that aligns with our ideals and to surround ourselves with people who agree on human rights, we do not live in a bubble.

I think the vast majority of people - both domestically and internationally- recognize Trump for the shitgibbon he is. And I think it’s good to expose myself to people who feel differently than I do on many things, but I will not willfully or regularly hang out someone who wants to share with me how much they love someone who wants to deny human rights or medical care to people. I will not shy away from hard conversations but it’s also not good for my mental health to maintain those relationships with people who cannot honor my boundaries.

[sent]

Jun 28, 2024 13:42:10 GMT -5 notsopicky said:

Jun 28, 2024 12:30:05 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Maybe we need to have the debate on Friday at 1pm because Biden sounds great at his rally in North Carolina right now.

I literally came back into this thread to say exactly this. WTAF happened last night? He is super coherent, fired up, etc. NOW, when he needed to be THIS Joe Biden LAST NIGHT. 

Ramy Youssef joked about this contrast in his SNL intro earlier this year. "Joe has an awareness issue." He goes on to say about an event like how you guys are describing the North Carolina rally - "Joe is thawed, they gave him an extra 10 in the microwave... He says stuff, it's inspiring, it doesn't mean anything but it's America. It's good."

[basilosaurus]

underwaterrhymes, that was quite the long response, and I appreciate the thought you put into it. I was abroad during the obama/clinton debate and experienced foriegners opining and giving me updates on super tuesday since I didn't have internet on my phone. At the time I had friends who are now probably magats. They blocked me after the ogerfell case. Yeah, I kept those friends that long and they finally found me fully offensive for saying yay.

There are reasons I have to keep this person in my life. Also, this maga shit is very new. 3+ years of knowing him and this is just surfacing. This is why I'm happy for once a month given the other reasons that I do not need to justify to the internets

[basilosaurus]

Jun 29, 2024 6:31:06 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Jun 29, 2024 1:07:26 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

This is where we disagree. That propaganda works where I am. They buy it.  It's hard to avoid. Either they don't care or they think he's charming and entertaining. This includes many nationalities.