Class Size + Making Friends, Middle School edition

[sent]

PDQ

My DD started 6th grade. I'm worried about her socially. She is a quiet child and a good friend once you get to know her. When she was in K & 1st grades at 2 different schools attached to daycares, her class size was around 15 kids. It took her a few months to warm up and make friends but by the end of the year, she would talk about every student and it really felt like she knew all of the kids on a personal level. She aged out of those schools so we moved to public school which is about 170 kids per grade. There is 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 HS so the kids are with each other from K - 12. I suspect she has social anxiety in big groups and it takes her some time to overcome that. (I also strongly suspect she gets this from her dad because he is the same way.) Now that she's been in public school in-person for grades 3 - 5, she will make 1 friend out of a class of 24 - 27 kids. The following year the classes get shuffled and she doesn't end up with that friend in her class. She manages to make a new friend. Rinse and repeat. I've tried to maintain these friendships outside of school but it's so hard to keep them organic and authentic, if that makes sense. I've had her in all kinds of activities outside of school (sports, music, scouts, etc.) for 3 years now to meet other kids that also attend her school.  She also chose to do some after school clubs last year. Being around all these kids at activities hasn't translated to having more buddies at school or in general. I hosted big birthday parties in 3rd and 4th grade at my home to meet girls in her grade and their parents; very little reciprocation. It's also not a matter of "everyone else has a Stanley + Lululemon and kids make fun of me for not having cool things" issue as I have asked her if she wants to purchase those things. She said no thanks but can we go to Sephora? (I took her.) To her credit, I think because she is basically invisible, she also manages to dodge a lot of the girl drama and general kid drama that I hear about in town. I have not given in to getting her a phone, but I don't think the lack of a phone is the issue as I've heard 6th grade is when the phones get more widespread here.

She came home today and it was the same story. None of her cumulative 3 friends are in the class she is assigned to eat lunch with so she ate alone. I saw bunches of kids heading downtown to hang out after school and my kid has never once asked to go downtown with anyone. I'm now wondering if I should research and switch her to a school with a much smaller class size like when she was in K & 1. Maybe she needs the small environment to feel like she belongs with her peers. I'm not worried about her academically. She does her work, reads a book when finished, follows instructions and doesn't cause trouble. I know times are different but I can't help but think that when I was the weird kid in middle school with strange immigrant parents, I had a group of kind friends who accepted me despite the very obvious racist kids who bullied me. I switched schools twice in high school and found peer groups to hang with both times. I don't know if the kids were more open back then to taking in new friends or if I was more confident in approaching strangers. I feel this should all be easier for my kids as I can offer them so much financially and socially that my parents couldn't. Instead I feel like I'm somehow failing my quiet kid. DS just started public school today so his fate is still TBD.

TL;DR - Any stories of how you switched your kid's school in middle school due to socially getting lost in the shuffle of a large class (150+) and they thrived? I would probably have to switch to a pricey private school and make a financial sacrifice to do so.

[pixy0stix]

Obviously I don't have a kid your daughter's age, but the number of friends and her ability to make friends all seems normal. There was a lot of backstory, but no real discussion of how *she* feels about it. Does it bother her?

[Deleted]

Does she seem unhappy where she is? Some kids are fine focusing on school and maybe having one friend. If she seems content to participate in clubs and extracurriculars and getting to know other kids without necessarily having any good friends in the group, then I’d just let it be. Bigger schools tend to have more groups (with lots of overlap) so it can be easier to “find your people” in activities or clubs. In a smaller school if you don’t fit in with the small number of people, you’re basically screwed.

If she’s depressed or miserable or begging to switch schools, then I’d consider it.

[Patsy Baloney]

I think kids and their friendships are weird anymore.

I think our kids are pretty similar, from what you describe. I worried about this a lot the past few years and *leaned in* to getting this girl some classic friends who hang out, go places, do things, etc.

It has not happened. But she is happy. I got her an iPad last year with messaging and FaceTiming capabilities. That has been a bit of a game changer - she calls kids from school and her theater group a few times a week. They also chat. I think she tends to just have her social battery charged by being at school, going to clubs, talking to a few folks and these handful of digital interactions.

This may also seem kind of stereotypical, but my daughter does not like the social games and climbing and ranking that goes on between a lot of girls her age. She has a few girl friends, but boys are GREAT for her. She has one who is her writing buddy and one who I would probably say is her best friend. She resisted those friend labels for a long time because your bff if you’re a girl is supposed to be a girl in her kid brain.

We also did therapy around this topic, and her therapist’s advice was basically that I needed to stop trying to force this friend “lightning bolt” moment, I needed to back away from pushing her into different scenarios, and let her lean into the things she was good at and comfortable in to find her place. That’s why I have a theater kid instead of a sports kid. She needed to be comfortable in the environment before she was going to start reaching out to her peers. Sports were anxiety-inducing. Theater is safe. Band is safe. Girl Scouts is safe, etc.

Anyway, good luck! I think she will be fine and will find her people, even if it’s just a few and they’re never in classes together.

[Roc A Bee]

Is she unhappy? Some kids don’t want/need a big friend group. My SS is always good with 1-2 friends and doesn’t like big groups.

I would make the decision that is right for the family unit, and given the information provided, I wouldn’t move her.

[maudefindlay]

My DS2 was really not interested in friends until 6th grade. He's now an 8th grader and has a solid group of 4 best friends and a few good friends. He did activities and was perfectly happy, it's just like one month all of a sudden he looked around and decided he'd like some buddies and he focused on it and now he has a social life.

Your DD sounds fine to me based on what you've shared.

[sent]

Aug 28, 2024 17:59:15 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Obviously I don't have a kid your daughter's age, but the number of friends and her ability to make friends all seems normal. There was a lot of backstory, but no real discussion of how *she* feels about it. Does it bother her?

Making and losing 1 friend a year is normal? I don't know, I have nothing to compare it against beyond the experiences of my siblings and I.

She shares so little about her feelings but I guess she's ok with it because she doesn't know there is any other choice? Sometimes I hear other parents talking about things that happened at the school and their stories make it sound like my kid attends a totally different school than their kids.

[lovelovelove]

I get it in terms of worrying about her connecting. My kid is like that too and I think I'm projecting my own fomo and insecurities when I see/hear about these tight girl bond groups and the fun stuff they are doing together (I was not fine socially growing up but I did have my tight group). My kid is just....not that kid? She loves people and connects easily on a fairly surface level with many, but she does not have a close friend, especially one that has carried over for years (same age as your dd, entering 6th). But she doesn't see it that way/feel like she's missing out. She feels connected to the people she really likes, avoids or is oblivious to the social climbing and drama. She does well with boys also, as another posted said. So I would say it depends on how your dd is feeling about it. Also I feel like many, many girls have friendships change a lot over middle school and really find their true people later in ms/into hs. Almost no one from my elementary/ms friendships lasted but I have many great friends I've maintained since hs.

[lovelovelove]

Aug 28, 2024 18:21:30 GMT -5 sent said:

Aug 28, 2024 17:59:15 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Obviously I don't have a kid your daughter's age, but the number of friends and her ability to make friends all seems normal. There was a lot of backstory, but no real discussion of how *she* feels about it. Does it bother her?

Making and losing 1 friend a year is normal? I don't know, I have nothing to compare it again but the experiences of my siblings and I.

She shares so little about her feelings but I guess she's ok with it because she doesn't know there is any other choice? Sometimes I hear other parents talking about things that happened at the school and their stories make it sound like my kid attends a totally different school than their kids.

In my limited experience, yes, making and losing a friend per year especially in elementary is fairly "normal". Normal as in a fairly regular occurrence for lots of kids I know from that age. Some kids find their person immediately in k. Others it takes years. It doesnt mean the lost friend is an enemy. Their outlooks change in elementary bc it's so focused on the kids they are in class with. I get it though about feeling sort of left out of the other parents. That stuff is sort of social engineering on the parents part though, especially with kids that need to be driven places all the time. You’re focusing on her needs in this and not necessarily what is easiest for you for socializing and carpooling it seems like. Also kids are still super ego centric at elementary age, so they aren't necessarily thinking about it like we are in terms of what is going on with my friendships.

[thebreakfastclub]

Gently, I do think making and losing 1 friend each year and eating alone is a topic to pursue further.

Not blaming, but your household seems like it probably has high tension and walking on eggshells with your husband.

I think it's worth pursuing a third party for your daughter to talk to about friendship or whatever else she is feeling and possibly struggles to express.

[gretchenindisguise]

L has struggled with friendships since about 4th grade. Pandemic amplified it and she still hasn't quite found her footing yet. She's now in 10th and seems to be making more inroads, but is still not really invited to parties or hanging out on the weekend. She has really been impacted it though and has been in therapy for years.

I think you need to talk with her and see if she is bothered by it and if yes, what she would like to do about it.

[minzy]

Is she likely to switch schools if you get divorced? I agree if she’s not particularly bothered by this herself to try not to worry so much.

[AdaraMarie]

I agree with the post that said a bigger pool of potential friends is better than a smaller one. It sounds like she's doing activities with smaller groups sometimes.
If it is hard for her to warm up being in a school with many acquaintances is probably better than a place where she doesn't know anyone. A smaller school could have kids who have been frieds or enemies for 5 or 6 years and might be even harder to break into.
She might have anxiety or something that needs to be addressed but, especially with stress at home, I would aim for fewer school changes.

[Jalapeñomel]

As someone who teaches at a smaller school, it’s much harder for new kids to break into the social scene.

Has your daughter expressed any concerns about meeting kids or eating alone?

Some kids take a while to find their groove. Some kids like having alone time over small talk or social climbing.

Nothing stands out to me as abnormal unless she has expressed she’s unhappy.

[devonpow]

Is she bothered by this?

If she’s not, I wouldn’t worry. Kids are different and being more of a quiet introvert is not a bad thing. DS1 was always really social and had to a of play dates and get togethers - friendships were maintained as classes shuffled. DS2 (going into 7th) basically only had 1 friend until last year. Now he has 2-3 but he still usually says he doesn’t want to invite them over etc - he’s a true introvert and gets exhausted from too much social time. The key for him is that he’s happy. His teachers always say he’s well liked in the class, he’s seen as a funny and nice kid. He plays with kids on the playground etc etc . He just likes to go home after school to “chill” lol. He hates team sports - he does a lot of activities and likes them and the other kids, but nothing has translated to longer term friendships.

It took me a long time to figure out this is ok because HE is ok. It’s so different from DS1 and from me, and that was hard for me to grasp.

[pixy0stix]

I'll say this for my personal experience - I had 31 kids in my graduating class. Of those, I had went to school with 22 of them since kindergarten. I had 3 friends. Small class sizes doesn't mean a lot of friends.

[devonpow]

Good point on the small class size sometimes being harder - I had 27 kids in my graduating class. I had been with many of them since K/1st/2nd. Social things in a school that small were ROUGH. There’s no ability to “switch groups” or avoid people who were mean, or meet someone new and reinvent yourself.

[tacokick]

Honestly, I think smaller classes can make it harder to make friends. My school was fairly big but academic classes were tracked from 6-12 together and my cohort all hated each other. To the point where teachers talked about it. It was great when we finally mixed with other grades in electives and had clubs.

Is there anything else she can do at lunch than eat in the cafeteria? Some of the schools I’ve worked in have had book club during lunch and kids became friends through that.

[sent]

Thank you everyone for replying. I don't know for sure if she is bothered by it, I don't think she is and this may just be her personality. I still remember her preschool teacher telling me that DD loved being in the library corner. They would redirect her to play in the kitchen corner with the other kids. She would oblige for a few minutes and then go right back to the library corner. She uses so few words to express what she feels although lately she is keen on arguing with me and being really bossy with DS. But your replies are helping me feel a lot better about all of this.

I've thought about therapy for the kids and especially for her, but I haven't made it a priority with our schedules and other commitments. I'll look into this further.

If my marital status changes, I will make sure that my kids don't have to leave this district so that won't be an issue.

[cville]

I stress over this with both of my kids. My daughter (9th) makes friends easily, but almost never hangs out with them outside of school or activities. So it feels superficial to me. Like they're colleagues more than friends.

I'm like invite them over! Make a plan to get ice cream! For the love of God, why don't you want to be with your friends!! I was dying to leave my house and hang out with peers!! I have been friends with my BFF since we were 2. The whole seeing people only in school and sort of shifting friend groups (she's done that twice now) is so different than how I was it stresses me out. I keep thinking she's lonely and has no anchor.

BUT she's fine with it so I try to be fine with it. My husband is largely the same way. Socializes mostly with co-workers during work hours, and rarely meets up with any friends outside of those hours. But he's always texting with people about random crap.


Eta: My daughter texts people a lot too. In bursts. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[waverly]

I have a few thoughts.

If you truly believe she has social anxiety then therapy might be helpful. I don’t think your post has a lot of evidence of that but we don’t have all the background.

I believe making a friend in class each year is really normal in elementary school. Friendships change by classes because they are with that same group. Very common. If they have looser ties the friendship fades with no drama.

Yes social engineering is huge here. I’m really struggling with it because sometimes it comes across as manipulative and I can’t handle it.

If your kid has 1 friend they are OK. If they have zero friends might be time to worry. Before changing schools I would focus on the lunch issue.

Girls talk more via text than boys. DD has an iPad not a phone and can text through iMessage. She talked a lot with her friends even if they only got together a couple of times this summer.

[abs]

So there are a few things going on here. If she is feeling lonely at school it might be worth reaching out to the counselor. There are often lunch groups and other things they can offer to help the transition to junior high. I would also check in with the pediatrician and make sure there aren’t flags for anxiety or depression holding her back.

As far as switching schools goes I would not. The junior high transition can be rough for everyone. See how it goes. IME a bigger school has actually been great. DD has thrived in an environment with more people. Opportunities to take classes she wants to take has helped her meet new people and find places where she fits. Her friends do seem to change year to year based upon who is in her classes. This is pretty normal I think. She did make several close friends in 6th though and those friendships are still going strong.

What kind of clubs and activities does her school offer? Those are great ways to make her world a bit smaller.

Last thing, consider getting your DD a way to keep in touch with the friends she does make. iPad, phone, something. You can put restrictions on it but it’s made all the difference!! Once kids can make plans on their own and FaceTime each other for homework help or just to talk bonds form a lot faster. I know that isn’t a popular opinion on these boards but it really helped DD socially.

[abs]

Also. It seems like kids don’t get together as much these days outside the giant social engineered parties that look curated for social media. I don’t get it. I wanted to spend every second with my best friend but in talking to people it seems common. It goes back to kids/families being over scheduled and busy.

[livinitup]

First off, you sound like a caring, engaged mom. Those are all wonderful qualities and serves your DD well.
Second, yes one friend is normal. Very much. My DD is entering 11th, so some of this is not that far behind me (& her). I could not tell you who she ate lunch with. It just wasn’t on my radar. Now, if she was required to find a friend group and she told me that she was eating alone, I would have been alarmed, too. Instead, the kids seemed to just line up and sit along each side of the long tables. I did notice that she switched from bringing lunch to buying lunch each day. It was a little abrupt and it lasted for a while and what I uncovered (or rather my H uncovered) was that her classmate, her friend bought lunch so she wanted to get on the lunch line so she she could sit with the kids who bought lunch. Haha. Okay! Now, all that to say, she went to school, she came home, she had some classmates Inheard about, friend or two, and I never ever thought it was not enough.

Now, I did not have a personal childhood experience that burned me and put me on high alert for her friendships. So, some of your worry might be coming from your personal history. That’s okay! Just try not to transfer your anxieties to her. Were other girls going into town in groups? Probably. But that was not an interest for my DD and it never occurred to me to think it was anything but a-okay that DD didn’t want to or simply didn’t.

Also, it was absolutely my experience, that at that age children simply did sports and activities and had friends from that. I have an only child and I engineered play dates for a while and most often we were busy with sports/activities or the other kid was. It is just normal. I also noticed that very few moms/parents preferred to host play dates. That has been backed-up on these boards. So. We had kids over but very reverse invitations (and no one else was either!). The little girl who came over most often was also an only child and she was easy to include (day, night, sleepovers) and almost never invited DD. Her family just didn’t host. So, that may be in the mix in your neighborhood, too.

[jeaniebueller]

Just want to echo others, don’t compare her experience to your experience, or other kids experiences. My oldest is shy and has a very small friend group, he’s never been one to want to be with his friends all the time, and he often prefers to be at home. It’s very different than my middle school experience where my friends were everything. With some of this social stuff, she’ll just have to figure out on her own, there’s no guarantee that switching her to a smaller school is going to enable her to make more friends easily. If anything, I would think that potentially a smaller school would cause more cliques and possibly for her to be dropped into a class that already has developed friend groups.

[Patsy Baloney]

Aug 28, 2024 20:08:53 GMT -5 abs said:

Also. It seems like kids don’t get together as much these days outside the giant social engineered parties that look curated for social media. I don’t get it. I wanted to spend every second with my best friend but in talking to people it seems common. It goes back to kids/families being over scheduled and busy.

I also think it points to a demise in community and independence. We deal with so much parental and child fear in my volunteer gig. Social lives have really, really changed.

[jeaniebueller]

Aug 28, 2024 19:42:13 GMT -5 cville said:

I stress over this with both of my kids. My daughter (9th) makes friends easily, but almost never hangs out with them outside of school or activities. So it feels superficial to me. Like they're colleagues more than friends.

I'm like invite them over! Make a plan to get ice cream! For the love of God, why don't you want to be with your friends!! I was dying to leave my house and hang out with peers!! I have been friends with my BFF since we were 2. The whole seeing people only in school and sort of shifting friend groups (she's done that twice now) is so different than how I was it stresses me out. I keep thinking she's lonely and has no anchor.

BUT she's fine with it so I try to be fine with it. My husband is largely the same way. Socializes mostly with co-workers during work hours, and rarely meets up with any friends outside of those hours. But he's always texting with people about random crap.


Eta: My daughter texts people a lot too. In bursts. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Same with my son. All summer I’m like want to have friends over, why don’t you meet up with them…he says they talk on discord. Okay whatever.

[sent]

abs , waverly - Is the iPad hooked up to cellular or just regular old wifi? DD does have an iPad but we haven't used it to message anyone outside of family. She said that right before school ended, "Sheila" from gym class asked DD for her phone number and DD said she didn't have a phone. I reminded her that she had an iPad and could chat with that, but then we were both confused. Would DD just need that girl's number and send the chats that way like she does with me? Or would DD just give out her email so kids could text her iPad? I thought I knew Sheila's mom and could just message her and solve the phone number issue, but turns out it was a different Sheila and DD never ended up making the connection.

[Patsy Baloney]

Aug 28, 2024 20:20:51 GMT -5 sent said:

abs, waverly - Is the iPad hooked up to cellular or just regular old wifi? DD does have an iPad but we haven't used it to message anyone outside of family. She said that right before school ended, "Sheila" from gym class asked DD for her phone number and DD said she didn't have a phone. I reminded her that she had an iPad and could chat with that, but then we were both confused. Would DD just need that girl's number and send the chats that way like she dose with me? Or would DD just give out her email so kids could text her iPad? I thought I knew Sheila's mom and could just message her and solve the phone number issue, but turns out it was a different Sheila and DD never ended up making the connection.

If the number is an iPhone and they have iChat turned on, it will work. You have to set up an Apple ID for her, too, and that’s where the parental controls are housed.

My DD works around the connection issue of kids not having iChat with Messenger Kids (through Facebook). WiFi is all she needs!

[noodleoo]

I haven’t read all the replies but I’m curious: have you mentioned changing schools to her? Because that sounds like a nightmare in middle school! I switched schools in elementary because we moved and it was really hard to be the new kid. I wouldn’t do it in middle school unless there is a very strong reason to do it. Switching schools sounds like an extreme response to this situation, especially if the dynamic doesn’t seem to bother her.

I’d be really careful about pushing what you think your daughter should have or be vs who she really is and what she wants. Based on your anecdote about the reading corner, it sounds like she seems happy being independent and reading. She might never be interested in having a big friend group or social life.

She reminds me of myself. I actually hate big groups of friends. I mostly have one good individual friend from different parts of my life (eg. one from HS, one from college, one from a former job, etc). I’m much more comfortable one on one.