MOOKS: How would you feel about this?

[redheadk]

Background:

Dd is 12

Message was sent privately in Schoology after school hours. I do not have access to her messages unless she logs in and shows me.

Dd has zero history of behavior problems at school. No feedback other than that she is well behaved, responsible, polite, and works well with her peers.

This is from an electives teachers (cooking). Not that it matters much, necessarily, just that there is a generally high level of student to student interaction due to the nature of the course.

I’ll post what dd actually said and the many poor choices in a response.

[redheadk]

What was said:

After the bell rang, the teacher told DD’s friend that she needs to talk less and be quieter the next day. Dd told her friend, “that is her way of telling you to shut up.”


The “many poor choices”:

1) dd reached over and scribbled on a boy’s notebook. Obviously not ok but also pretty typical middle school stupidity that I fully expect an adult to call her out on. Definitely not excusing. I was not told about this when it happened nor do I think it reaches the threshold of requiring parent contact. This happened in August and hasn’t happened again.

2) the teacher thinks she may have heard dd say the word bitch one time. It was not directed at the teacher or at another student. The teacher is not sure that is what dd said.

Those were literally the only 2 things the teacher could think of. She had no other examples and neither behavior was ever repeated.

[thebreakfastclub]

My son is in 6th (middle school) and we don't have Schoology.

The only direct messaging he gets is in the context of "X assignment is missing y, please fix and I'll regrade" or a good job feedback comment. I am cc'd on all messages.

I don't know how I feel about this private message aspect, I don't think I like it honestly.

I think this message is over the top for a well-behaved student. The tone is aggressive. I'd be likely to forward that right back to the teacher and ask for some clarification on what is going on here.

How can a kid correct behavior with no specific call outs.

[countthestars]

I would be very unhappy (my DD is 11). The tone of the message is threatening and seems very unprofessional. If the teacher heard it happening, they should have pickled your DD aside and spoken with her live. Additionally, if my kid has been a problem in class all year, I would expect to have heard about it from the teacher directly.

[Deleted]

My gut reaction is that it’s inappropriate for her to send a message like this on a Friday evening, rather than pull her aside after class and talk in person. Also, how does she expect your daughter to adjust her past bad behavior if she “gives her grace” instead of immediately calling out and correcting bad behavior?

More appropriate would have been to speak to her when it happened. If for some reason that was not possible, a message like “I’ve been thinking about what happened at the end of class today, and I’d like us to talk about this. Can you come by before the bell, or stay after class on Monday so we can talk about it?”

[bdubs419]

100% inappropriate. I have a middle schooler and if something happened like this with him I would probably lose my mind.

[abs]

That’s really unprofessional and I wouldn’t like it. The tone is so aggressive! I think I would email the teacher with a general check in and go from there.

[hazelden]

I'd be HOT about that. I'd be tempted to email her back and ask when would be a good time for you to stop by and have a conversation on Monday to discuss the poor choices your DD has been making so you can be sure they're addressed.

I'd be even more tempted to have DH do it because I don't think teachers like dealing with dads. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I've been contacted about some BS before that I can guarantee they'd never call a dad about - DS stepped in dog poo and they wanted me to come to the school with different shoes or come clean his off.

And I'd want to send the email right now to have a better chance of ruining her whole weekend.

ETA - or I'd want to respond to that email, copy myself, DH, and the principal and tell her you'd like to learn more about the poor choices DD has been making.

I generally go right to level 10 on stuff though, so it's usually better if I put DH in charge of something like this. I'm honestly mad on your behalf right now.

[waverly]

I feel like the tone of this message is aggressive.

My son has never received a disciplinary email from a teacher and this is his 3rd year in middle school. I think he’s only even gotten an individual message if they were responding to one of his.

Emailing teachers professionally is something that we’ve been working on with his tutor. If it wasn’t so aggressive then I might coach the student in how to respond but this seems a bit much for something that should have been a conversation in the moment.

Less structured classes tend to have more behavioral problems overall.

[sporklemotion]

I am a teacher and I would never send a message like this. We gave been counseled repeatedly that our emails are public and we should treat each one like it is going to be blasted everywhere. So we have to stick to facts and be professional.

[browneyedgirl9]

The tone of the message is very aggressive. I also don't feel comfortable with the direct message.

[erbear]

Oct 25, 2024 20:12:10 GMT -5 hazelden said:

I'd be HOT about that. I'd be tempted to email her back and ask when would be a good time for you to stop by and have a conversation on Monday to discuss the poor choices your DD has been making so you can be sure they're addressed.

I'd be even more tempted to have DH do it because I don't think teachers like dealing with dads. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I've been contacted about some BS before that I can guarantee they'd never call a dad about - DS stepped in dog poo and they wanted me to come to the school with different shoes or come clean his off.

And I'd want to send the email right now to have a better chance of ruining her whole weekend.

ETA - or I'd want to respond to that email, copy myself, DH, and the principal and tell her you'd like to learn more about the poor choices DD has been making.

I generally go right to level 10 on stuff though, so it's usually better if I put DH in charge of something like this. I'm honestly mad on your behalf right now.

I'll take dads all day, lol. Much easier to deal with, IMO. And I'd call a parent to come and bring a kid new shoes rather than allow them to drag dog poop into the building or walk around barefoot.

OP: I'd ask the teacher. Sounds like she had a rough day and is taking it out on a kid who did something small. I would not escalate this further in any way unless there was something else.

[ilikedonuts]

I’d lose my freaking mind. I’m usually pretty chill about school stuff, but that was an extremely aggressive message. If my kid got that I’d be calling/emailing the principal. Honestly I’d personally skip right over the teacher because of how aggressive and uncomfortable that message was to read.

[redheadk]

So I am HOT about this. I am angry about the tone and the threats in the email, as well as that she felt this was appropriate to send a student a private message of this nature at all. I had DD screenshot the message and text it to me bc there is no other way for her to send me her Schoology messages. I emailed her asking for a phone call, CCing the principal, AP, and counselor and including the screenshot.

The phone call did not go well at all. She started by telling me that when she first read my email then reread the message she could sort of see why DD interpreted in that way and why I, as an overprotective mom (!!!!), would think it was threatening but upon further reflection, she disagrees that it was threatening and inappropriate. It was a long call.

She kept saying "I'm sorry you interpreted my words that way." Countless times. I finally pointed out to her that her telling me that she was sorry that I interpreted something wrongly in her opinion is not actually an apology and was ironic given that she fired this message off based on how she incorrectly interpreted DD's words. She said "so you are saying that I shouldn't have addressed this with her at all?" "I did not say that or imply it. What I am saying is that this message, in and of itself, was inappropriate. Nothing about what was said was so out of line as to require it to be handled before she could be allowed to enter your room again. There is absolutely no reason that you could not wait until class the next day to have a discussion with her about what happened."

She asked me point blank "so you think her behavior is completely fine and she should not receive any consequence at all?" My response: "I have said nothing in this conversation to suggest that I think her behavior is 100% ok nor have I implied that. I have spoken to dd and handled this at home. The details of how I did that are not your business. What I will not be doing is pretending that anything you have described to me is an offense worthy of significant consequences. Every incident falls firmly within the continuum of typical tween behavior, things that need to be addressed and corrected in accordance to their severity. As a fellow teacher, I would expect you to understand the basics of child development and be able to adeptly handle these minor incidents in your classroom. What I would not have done is held onto them in my brain when they were never repeated. You threatened her that you would write her up. You have yet to describe to me anything that meets the threshold of a write up; what she did is neither egregious nor is it part a pattern of behavior."

She suggested that she contact me every time she has to get onto or address DD. I shut that down; I have no desire to have an adult tattle on my child every time she breathes wrong in her opinion and that DD should not have to fear that her teacher is going to call me constantly for things that would not warrant a call for any other student. She is always welcome to contact me should something happen that she feels warrants parent contact. She asked what that would be. I pointed out that we are fundamentally at odds over what behaviors would warrant a call so that unfortunately we would simply have to rely on her judgement for that.

I did insist that any further private communications from her to my DD include either myself, my husband, or an administrator since she showed incredibly poor judgement so perhaps would think twice in the future knowing that another adult will be putting eyes on her messages. She agreed.

It ended with me telling her that DD was most upset about me contacting her because she was fearful of retaliation. I said that I would be checking in with DD each day about her experience in the class, her behavior, and any interactions she had with the teacher and that I will contact her should I have any concerns about that.

Honestly, I would have been angry anyway but the call would have been far less ugly if she wasn't so incredibly condescending and rude on the phone from the outset.

I honestly feel like I'm taking crazy pills. DD is NOT perfect but she is a very good kid. I have literally never had a single complaint about her behavior and I've never met a teacher who was so incredibly hateful towards a kid.

Oh, and no administrator has contacted me. I did email them a summary of the phone call this afternoon.

DD said that she has been nicer to the entire class than she has been the entire year and has not had any interactions with DD outside of general interactions with the group as a whole. DD is fine and was like "well, pretty sure she's scared of you now and won't be calling you again so as long as she leaves me alone, I'm good."

The teachers at DD's school have overall been outstanding. This has been a shocking experience. I guess there's really no where to go from here but I'm just disgusted at the whole situation.

[redheadk]

All those years of Vocabulary Workshop really stuck with me, it all comes back out when I get mad lol

[maudefindlay]

Is she a licensed teacher in the traditional way (education degree)? With teacher shortages my state offers alternative paths to become a teacher (non education bachelor degrees). I say this because I've definitely noticed/heard stories about my kids' extras teachers and some of them (middle school in particular) come across as sounding rough around the edges. My impression has been they have a degree specific to what they are teaching, but no background on child development or how to teach. In my experience they have also been young(er). Eta Not excusing this person, I'm on your side here OP, just posting to say she might not understand child norms and maybe never did student teaching etc.

[sporklemotion]

Is she a new teacher? She seems really defensive and dug in on her position. She also sounds like she may not be right for middle school.

[ssmjlm]

Wow, the entire tone of that message is inappropriate.

I think at this point I would more upset that the teacher doesn’t seem to think she did anything wrong and that admin hasn’t responded either.

[orval]

Personally, I think you were way over the top to call her about this. You said this was "typical tween behavior" and should be addressed. The teacher did address it. While in person, in the moment would have been better, a quick warning was issued. I do not see it as threatening.

[heygrey]

We don't use teacher-student communication apps in elementary school so they aren't really on my radar either as staff or a parent. However, from basic district conversation I have heard repeatedly that they are not meant to message students about behaviour or discipline. That alone would make this message inappropriate even if it were written in the nicest way possible.

Going forward, if DD is comfortable in the class and this isn't a teacher she will have again in coming years I would probably monitor it, but mostly let it go.

[sdlaura]

Working mom of four here who doesn’t get worked up about much because I don’t have time - and I’d be very annoyed about this. Inappropriate and PP was right that it also sounds threatening. And is poorly timed. I’m glad our teachers don’t have direct messaging with students outside of comments on assignments. Kids say and do dumb and immature things sometimes and an adult who works with middle schoolers should have better judgment about how to handle them.

That said, I probably wouldn’t reach out. I’d talk to my kid about it and the teacher would be more on my radar for monitoring interaction going forward. Given that my 12 year old is my oldest and is going to be followed in school by my three more challenging sons who may end up having the same teachers - I’m very careful about what I raise a stink about.

[cmeon]

Gently- do you think the phone call helped diffuse the situation?

Moving forward, try to look at these uncomfortable situations that crop up in middle school+ as training opportunities for both of you. Your daughter should have tried handling this herself. It wasn't dangerous or risky to let that happen- your emotions got in the way this time.

So instead of learning that she *can* negotiate a misperception, it sounds like the message she got was something akin to "my mom wss so worried about me that she scared my teacher into compliance".

Coach her, empathize with her, offer her that kind of support- and sit on your hands/bite your tongue long enough to let it play out. It isn't always easy, but it does pay off.

[Saudade]

So I think this message is highly inappropriate. I’d be beyond irritated. Your DD’s behavior was totally normal.

I probably would have sent an email saying something but I’m not sure your phone call helped much.

I would have had a conversation with my kid saying her behavior was not acceptable AND she still needs to be respectful towards the teacher. My DS really struggled with one of his teachers last year. She had it out for him since the beginning of the year. She called me into the classroom to accuse him of not actually reading the books he said he did. I was so annoyed. He reads at a much higher level and if she had concerns she could have checked his state testing that proved it. Unfortunately I look extremely young and I’m very non-confrontational so the meeting didn’t go as I had hoped. I spent the year telling DS that he just had to do his work, keep his head down, and remember there will be countless people in this world that we don’t get along with. I also added that his hatred towards her was not worth screwing over his grades

[wanderingback]

I think there are 2 questions/issues at hand :
1) is it ok to direct message students about their behavior
2) was the tone of the message appropriate

I think if it was just a general "nice" message to the student about their behavior all of the responses would have been different. But the tone of that message to the student was definitely off. I don’t know what I would have done about it but yeah the tone of that message is definitely not what I would expect in general from a teacher to a young student.

[redheadk]

Oct 26, 2024 9:57:28 GMT -5 cmeon said:

Gently- do you think the phone call helped diffuse the situation?

Moving forward, try to look at these uncomfortable situations that crop up in middle school+ as training opportunities for both of you. Your daughter should have tried handling this herself. It wasn't dangerous or risky to let that happen- your emotions got in the way this time.

So instead of learning that she *can* negotiate a misperception, it sounds like the message she got was something akin to "my mom wss so worried about me that she scared my teacher into compliance".

Coach her, empathize with her, offer her that kind of support- and sit on your hands/bite your tongue long enough to let it play out. It isn't always easy, but it does pay off.

Of course it didn't help diffuse the situation. I was shocked at how she started the call. The tone of the email was exactly the tone she used on the phone from the outset. I was actually pretty caught off guard. The purpose of my call was to get to the bottom of how exactly DD is acting in class since she was being threatened with a write up yet I had received zero indication from anyone that there were any problems at all and to address her sending a private message to a student beyond the typical logistic-style messages DD receives occasionally.

As for the rest, I disagree that my daughter should have handled the sitaution independently. I am a capable parent who regularly does all of the things you describe; however, we will have to disagree about the threshold at which a parent needs to intervene. I really don't know what else to tell you other than DD is truly one of the most responsible, respectful kids I know. Other than packing her lunch and getting her to/from school, there is really nothing I ever need to do for her regarding school. I'm very, very aware that kids do not act the same around their parents as they do others but all feedback I've received up to this point is consistent with the child I observe at home. 


A few people have asked if she's new/her age. She is not a new teacher though she has not been in an actual classroom full time for a while. I'm fuzzy on her exact background but she moved up from elementary school because her husband teaches at the middle school. She only taught 2 actual classes last year and was in the testing room or something like that for the rest of the day until this year. I don't know what kind of cert she has but she is a certified teacher.

She's a little older, her kids are college age. As we were leaving parent night at the beginning of the year, my DH remarked that she seemed like she really doesn't like middle schoolers. He is pretty easy going about things so for him to even remark on it is unusual. There was a lot of looking around at other parents in confusion while she was speaking. 

[thebreakfastclub]

Oct 26, 2024 9:57:28 GMT -5 cmeon said:

Gently- do you think the phone call helped diffuse the situation?

Moving forward, try to look at these uncomfortable situations that crop up in middle school+ as training opportunities for both of you. Your daughter should have tried handling this herself. It wasn't dangerous or risky to let that happen- your emotions got in the way this time.

So instead of learning that she *can* negotiate a misperception, it sounds like the message she got was something akin to "my mom wss so worried about me that she scared my teacher into compliance".

Coach her, empathize with her, offer her that kind of support- and sit on your hands/bite your tongue long enough to let it play out. It isn't always easy, but it does pay off.

As an adult in the workplace, this is an inappropriate email to send one of my direct reports. You have a conversation in person vs hiding behind a vaguely threatening email. This teacher is a loser, honestly.

So I'm not tolerating this nonsense for a 12yo, nor expecting her to figure it out herself.

[wanderingback]

Oct 26, 2024 11:56:44 GMT -5 thebreakfastclub said:

Oct 26, 2024 9:57:28 GMT -5 cmeon said:

Gently- do you think the phone call helped diffuse the situation?

Moving forward, try to look at these uncomfortable situations that crop up in middle school+ as training opportunities for both of you. Your daughter should have tried handling this herself. It wasn't dangerous or risky to let that happen- your emotions got in the way this time.

So instead of learning that she *can* negotiate a misperception, it sounds like the message she got was something akin to "my mom wss so worried about me that she scared my teacher into compliance".

Coach her, empathize with her, offer her that kind of support- and sit on your hands/bite your tongue long enough to let it play out. It isn't always easy, but it does pay off.

As an adult in the workplace, this is an inappropriate email to send one of my direct reports. You have a conversation in person vs hiding behind a vaguely threatening email. This teacher is a loser, honestly.

So I'm not tolerating this nonsense for a 12yo, nor expecting her to figure it out herself.

I don’t know why but calling the teacher a loser is making me chuckle.

I also think with written communication you definitely have a moment to check your tone vs the heat of the moment. Like if a teacher slightly lost it and yelled I would give them more grace than the tone of that message actually. The all caps "NOT" was very unnecessary.

[abs]

For me it’s the title of the message. “I heard what you said.” Like is this a sequel to a 90s teen movie? That just seems so off. I can’t get past it to respond on any of what happened after.

[cmeon]

Oct 26, 2024 11:54:51 GMT -5 redheadk said:

Oct 26, 2024 9:57:28 GMT -5 cmeon said:

Gently- do you think the phone call helped diffuse the situation?

Moving forward, try to look at these uncomfortable situations that crop up in middle school+ as training opportunities for both of you. Your daughter should have tried handling this herself. It wasn't dangerous or risky to let that happen- your emotions got in the way this time.

So instead of learning that she *can* negotiate a misperception, it sounds like the message she got was something akin to "my mom wss so worried about me that she scared my teacher into compliance".

Coach her, empathize with her, offer her that kind of support- and sit on your hands/bite your tongue long enough to let it play out. It isn't always easy, but it does pay off.

Of course it didn't help diffuse the situation. I was shocked at how she started the call. The tone of the email was exactly the tone she used on the phone from the outset. I was actually pretty caught off guard. The purpose of my call was to get to the bottom of how exactly DD is acting in class since she was being threatened with a write up yet I had received zero indication from anyone that there were any problems at all and to address her sending a private message to a student beyond the typical logistic-style messages DD receives occasionally.

As for the rest, I disagree that my daughter should have handled the sitaution independently. I am a capable parent who regularly does all of the things you describe; however, we will have to disagree about the threshold at which a parent needs to intervene. I really don't know what else to tell you other than DD is truly one of the most responsible, respectful kids I know. Other than packing her lunch and getting her to/from school, there is really nothing I ever need to do for her regarding school. I'm very, very aware that kids do not act the same around their parents as they do others but all feedback I've received up to this point is consistent with the child I observe at home. 


A few people have asked if she's new/her age. She is not a new teacher though she has not been in an actual classroom full time for a while. I'm fuzzy on her exact background but she moved up from elementary school because her husband teaches at the middle school. She only taught 2 actual classes last year and was in the testing room or something like that for the rest of the day until this year. I don't know what kind of cert she has but she is a certified teacher.

She's a little older, her kids are college age. As we were leaving parent night at the beginning of the year, my DH remarked that she seemed like she really doesn't like middle schoolers. He is pretty easy going about things so for him to even remark on it is unusual. There was a lot of looking around at other parents in confusion while she was speaking. 

I'm not saying your feelings about the way the teacher initiated the conversation with your daughter aren't valid. The teacher's message wad clearly loaded with emotion and ... well, we aren't at our best when we let emotions drive our responses.

Your daughter could have walked in, apologized for her comment (I have to assume this was just the cherry on top of a crappy day), and moved on- knowing that she needs to be a little.more careful with that teacher. She really could have handled this!

I am sorry that this experience was so stressful for all of you. MS is a weird time (thankfully, it's gone in a blink).

[redheadk]

Oct 26, 2024 11:08:42 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I think there are 2 questions/issues at hand :
1) is it ok to direct message students about their behavior
2) was the tone of the message appropriate

I think if it was just a general "nice" message to the student about their behavior all of the responses would have been different. But the tone of that message to the student was definitely off. I don’t know what I would have done about it but yeah the tone of that message is definitely not what I would expect in general from a teacher to a young student.

This is part of what gives me pause. The truth is that I would prefer to not need to monitor DD’s messages to/from her teachers. But I also feel like her teacher took advantage of a messaging system that she knows nobody else can see. I mean, I’m sure the Schoology admin can retrieve messages but obviously they aren’t actively monitored.